Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: LTARGlok on April 16, 2008, 02:51:50 AM
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Bridgette Bardot has been accussed by French prosecutors of making racist slurs against Muslims, and is consequently now on trial. Prosecutors are recommending a $23,000 fine, and a two month suspended jail sentence. If she was to make more racist statements, she could then be sent to jail.
It turns out that she has already been fined 4 times previously for criticizing Muslims living in France. The recent statement that she said that has now landed her in hot water again was this:
"I am fed up with being under the thumb of this population which is destroying us, destroying our country and imposing its religious acts,"
Here is a news report about her trial:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351363,00.html
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She's married to the #2 of the French National party (extreme right)
No surprise here, move along.
PS: It's "Brigitte" not Bridget.
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That bimbo biatch can drop dead. This wouldn't even get a thread in the OClub if you knew how rotten racist she is.
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That bimbo biatch can drop dead. This wouldn't even get a thread in the OClub if you knew how rotten racist she is.
So she really is a racist????
She always seemed very sweet in all the movies I ever saw her in.
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Racist or not, she does have a point :(
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She's married to the #2 of the French National party (extreme right)
So Nationalists are considered to be extremists in France???
I admit that I know very little of French politics. And even less of French political parties.
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So she really is a racist????
She always seemed very sweet in all the movies I ever saw her in.
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Don't be fooled. She's exactly what I said above, a bimbo b****. She's married to the sort of people who say stuff like "the ovens in 39-45 were a minor detail" in an as-a-matter-of-fact sort of way. They're rotten extreme right rats like you wouldn't believe until you went over to France and saw for yourself. I lived with pukes like em in the heart of french country side, so you can take my word for it. I've dealt with pretty much all the different types of people who bask in the glow of neo-nazism, from full-on skinheads to polite grannies who if you looked even slightly foreign wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.
"Nationalist" is just a word, just as it was in "national-socialist".
Racist or not, she does have a point :(
She'd still say so if Muslims were 100% peaceful.
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I totally agree with her. Islam: The religion of submission.
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good on brigitte bardot. it doesn't matter that she is spot on in her assessment her mistake is that she's supposed to be waving a white flag. to do otherwise would be offensive to french sensibilities. imagine the horror!!!! what if everybody chose to fight moslems, where would we be then?
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edited.
:mad:
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Is muslim a race? I thought it was a religion? If that's the case that it is a religion then how could she make a racist statement? I actually agree with her but then again there are groups of people here in the U.S. doing the same thing. We call them politicians. ;)
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screw islam.
there. i said it.
i don't condone racism...but it boggles the mind that a country that supposedly values liberty would do so much to
stiffle it.
so much for free speech.
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I think that the remark initially calling her a racist stems from her overall racism... not from the specific remark which she made about the muslim religion.
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silly old women, she should know it's ok to be anti-christian but not ant-is-lam.
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ltardgloc.. how would you know anything about her? she hasn't had a reality show yet.
lazs
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Great question, wrongwayric, I was going to ask that myself. Under US law (if she said that here), prosecuting her for making an unpopular statement would be forbidden. Same if she said it about any other religious group. This is a fine example of why the government shouldn't recognize any religion as superior. Just because things work out when your religion is on top doesn't mean that'll always be the case. 20 years ago, the french would have probably laughed at the idea that this could happen.
This is why the separation of religion and politics is a Good Thing, because things change, and it's not always the religion you like that's in favor.
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Not really true chair.. we have "hate speech" here.. if it can be applied to race... why not religion or.. the government itself? It is not religion that is the problem but free speech.
lazs
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How can we have a truly free society if there are hate speach laws?You can't....Even if it's a Holocoust denier..he must be allowed to speak,write or express one self,regardless of how whack his opinion is.
By silencing someone with hate speach laws,"you are making yourself a slave to your own opinion"...Thomas Paine.
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Lazs, help me understand by providing an example where someone was prosecuted by the government for making a statement like she did. It'd be good to know.
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Is muslim a race? I thought it was a religion? If that's the case that it is a religion then how could she make a racist statement? I actually agree with her but then again there are groups of people here in the U.S. doing the same thing. We call them politicians. ;)
Well, and Chairboy this answers your post too, when you've seen that bimbo do and say all she has, as much as me, or Saintaw or Straffo.. There's very small chances that you won't agree what she says about muslims is out of blind racism, rather than some clear and well thought out theological opinion.
Her statements don't fall into any ambiguous or arguable religious category because the judge and lawyers involved know exactly what her thoughts are. And it's neither the first time she does this, nor a recent development.
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Racist or not, she was Smoking Hot back in the day.
Just wanted to ad that important point.
Charon
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Racist or not, she was Smoking Hot back in the day.
Just wanted to ad that important point.
Charon
It would have been a better point with an image :aok
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Her statements don't fall into any ambiguous or arguable religious category because the judge and lawyers involved know exactly what her thoughts are.
Here's a big part of the problem..Someone claiming to know the thoughts of someone else.Something that they can not possibly know..and that person being charged with "thought crime".
Welcome to North Korea gentelmen.
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Uh yeah, if NK is suddenly populated with brainless zombie bimbos preaching PETA spiels and that parrot whatever their closet nazi husband says, yeah.
You just don't know what you're talking about :lol
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It would have been a better point with an image
Here's an average shot.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.artland.co.uk/Bardot_E-PP001.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.artland.co.uk/page2019aa.htm&h=100&w=74&sz=5&hl=en&start=62&um=1&tbnid=FBiYlYdR9Aj-1M:&tbnh=82&tbnw=61&prev=/images%3Fq%3DBridget%2BBardot%26start%3D60%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
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She deserves nothing more than to be reincarnated as a non-white girl in the middle of a neo-nazi ghetto. How you guys can get turned on by what's might as well be nazi piece trash is beyond me.
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Usually when you think of someone using racial slurs, you'd think that would be considered free speech. If you want to be a total dick with everything you say, you're welcome to it. I know lots and lots and lots of people who are total good-for-nothings, and of whom I can't stand any of the words that come out of their mouths. Doesn't make it illegal for them to be total jerk-offs though.
The article doesn't say she's being indicted for any actual slurs (it only implies that by the title). It actually says she's being indicted for inciting hatred. That is more in the line of 'her words were followed by hateful, physically harmful action.' So, I'd say there's more there than is being published in that one article.
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WOW! Useing that law or what ever blind logic then President Bush and all the others should be charged also. They have inspired hatred against terrorists! Then you follow that to the next conclusion that the majority of terrorists are muslim/arabs OMG! String em all up. When the muslim and arab nations step up and condem the terrosists and start turning them in or hunting them down and taking them out then maybe they will not have these type of statements made against them. :mad: Seems to me the french courts are trying to appease the muslim/arabs again and the last time they did that terrorists blew up a train. Sure seemed to work then didn't it?
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WOW! Useing that law or what ever blind logic then President Bush and all the others should be charged also.
that may happen, obama said after his is chosen Prince of America he will have the justice dept investigate bush and gang for war crimes.
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Usually when you think of someone using racial slurs, you'd think that would be considered free speech. If you want to be a total dick with everything you say, you're welcome to it. I know lots and lots and lots of people who are total good-for-nothings, and of whom I can't stand any of the words that come out of their mouths. Doesn't make it illegal for them to be total jerk-offs though.
The article doesn't say she's being indicted for any actual slurs (it only implies that by the title). It actually says she's being indicted for inciting hatred. That is more in the line of 'her words were followed by hateful, physically harmful action.' So, I'd say there's more there than is being published in that one article.
No... You guys are talking about someone you don't know, that's the first fact. Second fact is that the only reason what she says isn't quite deserving of the full on "incitation to hatred" sort of sentence is that she's broke down stupid. If she was smart, she'd use a minimum of clever wording like every other neonazi scumbag and be off scott free every time.. She'd get some benefit of the doubt like Michel Houellebecq. It would all be taken as so much impertinent noise, except that over in France you're a lot closer to the sort of culture that Germans have, not really censoring nazi revivalism as much as having zero tolerance because they know exactly where that path leads.
wrongwayeric, that's rubbish. You neither know the context nor understand what's going on. But it's not like you need any good excuse to pull a white flag joke. :P
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I'm still trying to grasp a Hollywood film star (albeit several thousand miles to the east for the last few decades) that isn't a Christian-hating/Amuuurica hating leftist. (I suppose she still might be leftist in other areas...I know animal rights are big on her to-do list) On the other hand, she may be one of the few who realize that Islam is going to squash her country's culture in decades to come
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Not really true chair.. we have "hate speech" here.. if it can be applied to race... why not religion or.. the government itself? It is not religion that is the problem but free speech.
lazs
The term "Islamophobia" means "fear of Islam"..However,now it is taking the form of "fear of Muslims"..like it's an incitement of hatred towards an ethnic group..which it is not.
The merging of faith with the notion of race,and government.
There...you now have a trinity of insanity.
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No... You guys are talking about someone you don't know, that's the first fact. Second fact is that the only reason what she says isn't quite deserving of the full on "incitation to hatred" sort of sentence is that she's broke down stupid. If she was smart, she'd use a minimum of clever wording like every other neonazi scumbag and be off scott free every time.. She'd get some benefit of the doubt like Michel Houellebecq. It would all be taken as so much impertinent noise, except that over in France you're a lot closer to the sort of culture that Germans have, not really censoring nazi revivalism as much as having zero tolerance because they know exactly where that path leads.
wrongwayeric, that's rubbish. You neither know the context nor understand what's going on. But it's not like you need any good excuse to pull a white flag joke. :P
Probably another thing that's not very clear is how France is on their speech laws. Can you indeed say anything you want? I mean, really... here anybody (regardless of what we know about their hatred or not) can say anything they want, for the most part.
I mean, none of that changes that she's probably got a pretty evil heart ~ but as long as you can say whatever you want ~ why is she being indicted for inciting hatred? Just because she's got a putrid soul or a foul mouth?
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I sure don't believe in racism. Nothing good comes out of hate. Still though, I do believe in free speech.
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I sure don't believe in racism. Nothing good comes out of hate. Still though, I do believe in free speech.
what makes you think a person who is racist also hates?
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Think of it like a rule 5, rather than 4.
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what makes you think a person who is racist also hates?
Isn't the former DEFINED by feelings of the latter in regards to a specific racial group?
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I see what you mean... I just don't see why she's being indicted for it. I strongly disagree with what she said, but I don't think that everyone we strongly disagree with should be jailed as a result of our belief that they're horrible people and showing it with their foul mouths.
Hatred is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die as a result of it. That sort of hatred that she appears to have is enough for her to self destruct without trouncing on the freedom of speech (which I'm still not clear if France has or not).
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texasmom it would appear that France does not have freedom of speech, or there would not be a call to indict an actress for what she said. If we indicted every actor/actress that spouted off Hollywierd would be almost bearable.
The U.S. didn't even indict Hanoi Jane for treason, and she went over to the enemy and told them how rightous they were and how evil we were.
Also something to keep in mind is that France harbored the Ayatolla Kohmeni(SP) for something like twenty years, and they probably are trying to stay on the good side of the radical muslims. Hoping to avoid conflict I'm sure.
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txmom as you can see SIK1 is a specialist on France, he's probably lived there for years, so he's not just repeating whatever he selectively retained from whatever filtered thru the media to him.
He obviously has a deep and thorough understanding of, dare I say, French culture.
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And it's neither the first time she does this, nor a recent development.
You are right. Here is a very similar news story about her back from 2004. She clearly hates Muslims. Her first fine was given her back in 1997.
There are now 5 Million Muslims living in France, out of a total of 64 Million. So that works out to about 8% of the total population.
Here is a copy of this news story from 2004:
PARIS (Reuters) - French actress-turned-animal rights activist Brigitte Bardot (news) was convicted Thursday of inciting racial hatred and ordered to pay $6,000 -- the fourth such fine for the former sex symbol since 1997.
The Paris court sentenced Bardot, 69, for remarks in her book "A Scream in the Silence," an outspoken attack on gays, immigrants and the jobless that shocked France last year.
In the book, she laments the "Islamization of France" and the "underground and dangerous infiltration of Islam."
"Mme. Bardot presents Muslims as barbaric and cruel invaders, responsible for terrorist acts and eager to dominate the French to the extent of wanting to exterminate them," the court said.
France's 5-million-member Muslim community is the largest in Europe.
Bardot, who was not present for the verdict, denied the charges in a tearful court appearance last month, saying her book did not target Islam or people from North Africa.
She told the court France was going through a period of decadence and said she opposed interracial marriage.
"I was born in 1934, at that time interracial marriage wasn't approved of," she said.
"There are many new languages in the new Europe. Mediocrity is taking over from beauty and splendor. There are many people who are filthy, badly dressed and badly shaven."
In her book, she also attacks homosexuals as "fairground freaks," condemns the presence of women in government and denounces the "scandal of unemployment benefits."
Bardot's attacks on Muslims prompted anti-racism groups to launch legal proceedings against the former star, who turned her back on film after 46 films to concentrate on animal welfare.
Bardot, who in her 1960s heyday was the epitome of French feminine beauty, was fined $3,250 in January 1998 after being convicted of inciting racial hatred in comments about civilian massacres in Algeria.
Four months earlier, a court fined her for saying France was being overrun by sheep-slaughtering Muslims.
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ltardgloc.. how would you know anything about her? she hasn't had a reality show yet.
lazs
Hey, don't get on my back.
I posted a message about a really great story by Frederick Forsyth about flying and WWII aircraft that most people here would probably be fascinated with, and only 31 people have read it so far.
In contrast, my post on the Kardashians now has over 600 views from other forum members.
So what does that tell you???
Even you read the one about the Kardashians.
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More hawt pictures in the Cardassian thread perhaps? :)
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ltardgloc.. you said girls and guns in the same statement.. of course I would look.. you will notice that most people were not too happy with you over the thing since they were sucked in too.. after that..it became a thread on how bad reality shows and the people who watch em are. hardly a victory for your viewpoint on the whole thing.
lazs
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c'mon, we're talking about a fat old "sex kitten" here, who said Muslims are destroying France, and she made statements against the Muslim feast where animals are apparently sacrificed - because she is an animal rights nut...
I don't see what this is all about, unless its fear of Muslim violence.
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She might be considered a nutjob, but folks talking about freedom of speech are right...it must suck to live where she lives.
Our founding fathers had far more long-term insight than they got credit for.
ROX
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Lord please keep one hand on my shoulder and the other over my mouth.
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IN 50 years Europe will be a mostly brown, Islamic Caliphate (With strong Chinese Super-Power economic/military support) facing off in a dangerous cold war against a mostly brown, Hispanic, and Catholic United States. The outcome of that conflict will decide the fate of the last remnant of Western Civilization.
I'm not saying thats good, bad or indifferent. Its just when I have one of my spells and see visions of the future; thats what I see.
:noid,
Wab
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Nihao-aleykhum!
Aleykhum-Nihao!
Hmmm... nah.
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All things must pass.
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All things must pass.
But we always noticed the kidney stones the most.
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IN 50 years Europe will be a mostly brown, Islamic Caliphate (With strong Chinese Super-Power economic/military support) facing off in a dangerous cold war against a mostly brown, Hispanic, and Catholic United States. The outcome of that conflict will decide the fate of the last remnant of Western Civilization.
I'm not saying thats good, bad or indifferent. Its just when I have one of my spells and see visions of the future; thats what I see.
:noid,
Wab
:rofl Good one!
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Isn't the former DEFINED by feelings of the latter in regards to a specific racial group?
One can think believe that dogs are inferior to humanity and therefore not entitled to rights without hating dogs.
So it follows that there may be someone who thinks that a certain race is inferior to his own, thereby being a racist, without hating the race he thinks of as inferior.
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ltardgloc.. you said girls and guns in the same statement.. of course I would look..
In that case, you are just as guilty as any of the rest of us. And certainly in no position to act so superior.
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c'mon, we're talking about a fat old "sex kitten" here, who said Muslims are destroying France, and she made statements against the Muslim feast where animals are apparently sacrificed - because she is an animal rights nut...
I don't see what this is all about, unless its fear of Muslim violence.
I think that she is afraid of French culture being destroyed, much like some people feel that all of the illegal Hispanic immigration into the USA will destroy American culture.
I know that there are a number of high schools in California where they have had to end their football programs, as Hispanic students had no interest in playing American football. They had plenty of boys come out for soccer, however.
It is most strange walking around some parts of our country, and hearing everyone speaking a "foreign" language. Back when I was young, one rarely heard foreign languages spoken here in America.
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Check out the nut-job Iranian president..He said the other day that Bush was responsible for the "second Holocoust" in invading Iraq.This is astonishing on several levels.
Hmm..Well mr Iranian President,..what was with that "Holocoust Denial Summit" in Tehran a couple of years ago then?(the one that David Duke attended)..I thought you were insisting the first one never happened?
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:rofl Good one!
Think I could get on Art Bell's "Coast-to-Coast AM" to discuss my visions?
I wish I was more than only half joking.
:eek:,
Wab
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IN 50 years Europe will be a mostly brown, Islamic Caliphate (With strong Chinese Super-Power economic/military support) facing off in a dangerous cold war against a mostly brown, Hispanic, and Catholic United States. The outcome of that conflict will decide the fate of the last remnant of Western Civilization.
I'm not saying thats good, bad or indifferent. Its just when I have one of my spells and see visions of the future; thats what I see.
Just what we need. Another bloody Nostradamus.
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Just what we need. Another bloody Nostradamus.
I prefer Edgar Cayce. Nostradamus was ...........wait for it....................French.
:noid,
Wab
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IN 50 years Europe will be a mostly brown, Islamic Caliphate (With strong Chinese Super-Power economic/military support) facing off in a dangerous cold war against a mostly brown, Hispanic, and Catholic United States. The outcome of that conflict will decide the fate of the last remnant of Western Civilization.
I'm not saying thats good, bad or indifferent. Its just when I have one of my spells and see visions of the future; thats what I see.
:noid,
Wab
in fifty years the world will be mostly brown but we we still find reason to be the same as we always have been. ask a belgian, ask a canadian or ask lazs
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Free speech or not Brigitte Bardot is very much a racist. The man she is married to is Bernard d'Ormal. He worked with Jean-Marie Le Pen's Front National Party.
As Moot pointed out Jean-Marie Le Pen has been accused of being a 'Holocaust Denier' and is quoted as saying things like in regards to the Holocaust:
I ask myself several questions. I'm not saying the gas chambers didn't exist. I haven't seen them myself. I haven't particularly studied the question. But I believe it's just a detail in the history of World War II.
Bardot has been prosecuted and found guilty of multiple instances of 'inciting racial hatred'. This isn't a case of poor Brigitte speaking her mind and and ending up in court - she is a repeat offender. Whether or not she should be prosecuted or not aside. To most Americans the idea of prosecuting some one for speaking their mind is ridiculous. However, most European countries have similar laws, so does Canada, and there are many people who are prosecuted, found guilty, fined and some given significant prison terms, based on what they have said or written.
In many cases most of these folks would be dismissed as 'kooks' but they end up as 'martyrs' of 'free speech'. IMHO it's much better to have an open dialog where by 'kooks' are shown to be 'kooks'. Instead of dismissing poor Brigitte as just another 'kook' the discussion moves toward the merits of 'Free Speech'. This is where these types of laws fail.
Wotan
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Don't get me started on BB she's a ***** and a ***** :)
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Don't get me started on BB she's a ***** and a ***** :)
why would you post such an awful statement regarding that french national treasure?
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why would you post such an awful statement regarding that french national treasure?
Well, she is 69 years old now.
In fact, she has not even made any court appearances recently, saying that she is not in good health.
Here is the most current photo of her that I could find, from a few years ago:
(http://www.stuff.co.nz/images/716578.jpg)
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In many cases most of these folks would be dismissed as 'kooks' but they end up as 'martyrs' of 'free speech'. IMHO it's much better to have an open dialog where by 'kooks' are shown to be 'kooks'. Instead of dismissing poor Brigitte as just another 'kook' the discussion moves toward the merits of 'Free Speech'. This is where these types of laws fail.
Wotan
This is brilliant. Suppression of speech by "Government" is ultimately impossible. It only creates an underground. I see this French law as a sign of desperation. The sex kitten might be a racist, or she might be astute. But who cares as long as every French person is entitled to their own opinions, including Muslims?
Again, I think there is a real fear of Muslim violence...
and why should France tolerate that threat hanging over their head?
One other thing: Who decides what speech is incitefull in France? The Muslims?
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I agree with the French goverment's actions. Freedom of speech should only apply to stuff we all like.
Wab
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Well, she is 69 years old now.
In fact, she has not even made any court appearances recently, saying that she is not in good health.
Here is the most current photo of her that I could find, from a few years ago:
(http://www.stuff.co.nz/images/716578.jpg)
Nope 74
(http://stupidcelebrities.net/wp-content/524.jpg)
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You guys are arguing this like France was the US. It's not, and it means free speech law can't be made the same, any more than the 2nd amendment could be added to any random country's legislation.
I don't really agree with the way their laws work, but they aren't as bad as some of you would like to think, based on this one rather extreme example.
Here's another:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F09%2F18%2Fwislam18.xml
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/10-22-2002-28686.asp
"charges of provoking racial hatred" = much like "disturbing the peace" in rallies, to the point of getting tazed etc.
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You guys are arguing this like France was the US. It's not, and it means free speech law can't be made the same, any more than the 2nd amendment could be added to any random country's legislation.
I don't really agree with the way their laws work, but they aren't as bad as some of you would like to think, based on this one rather extreme example.
Here's another:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F09%2F18%2Fwislam18.xml
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/10-22-2002-28686.asp
"charges of provoking racial hatred" = much like "disturbing the peace" in rallies, to the point of getting tazed etc.
True enough, but had she said same about Christians or Jews I submit she'd have no legal problems whatsoever--Many folks world-wide bend over backwards for Muslims, far more than they are owed--they made their original countries a pile of excrement, then they move to nice places like France or the UK and deMAND the local populations change their ways to accept the new immigrants, and of course, they do
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You guys are arguing this like France was the US. It's not, and it means free speech law can't be made the same, any more than the 2nd amendment could be added to any random country's legislation.
I don't really agree with the way their laws work, but they aren't as bad as some of you would like to think, based on this one rather extreme example. - Moot
Maybe you are so close to the culture that you can't see the forest for the trees. Maybe you are afraid of Muslims...
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LOL
Carry on... ;)
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i am gonna get a copy of her book... from the things that people here are saying, it sounds like France is being torn apart by the same things the US is being torn apart - only people are afraid to say it. Political Correctness should be called Political "Cleansing"
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Sheesh.. Talk about a total lack of context. Why not grab a copy of Mein Kampf back then, to see why germany is being torn apart by multi-ethnicity?
Seriously, if you want an authenticaly french perspective that's on the anti-islam side of impartial, get Elementary Particles or Platform, or The possibility of an island, by Michel Houellebecq. I'd recommend Particles first, but it's probably a toss-up between either of those three if the actual novel is superfluous to what you want to know about the culture. Particles' foreign narrative p.o.v. is probably (IIRC) the easiest to understand, though.
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Moot, put another way, why would you have a problem with an old actress complaining that Muslims are destroying France and that they abuse animals by sacrificing them in a Muslim feast day?
Why would you minimize the government's prosecution of this old person for her statement of her beliefs, whether you agree with them or not? Even a small sanction from the "Government" is an outrage in my opinion.
Maybe Muslims ARE changing the culture of France. Maybe there IS a disproportionate number of Muslims on welfare. It doesn't matter. She should be free to express her opinion...
... but the fear is allowed to rule.
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quite frankly when you have huge numbers of immigrants who have no desire to assimilate into your society, you weaken the fabric of the country. we are facing the same thing here where the flood gates were left open, primarily on our southern border and it has weakened our nation financially, morally, physically (most have never has immunizations of any sort) and about any other way it can be corrupted.
We allow 2 million - yes, 2 million in LEGALLY per year... that's far more than reasonable. We now have roughly 15% of the population of mexico living here ILLEGALLY and with them, they bring crime, poverty and disease. We have had an administration refuse to enforce our own laws, and those running for the white house in november have been right in line with this lawlessness. We have a few of our border patrol agents who are now political prisoners who are in jail for enforcing our laws and shooting an armed drug smuggler in the rear-end!
Unregulated immigration cannot work - ever - particularly when the immigrants do not wish to assimilate or wish to do harm to your country and government.
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I don't have a problem with her complaining. I have a problem with the exact facts not being reported in this thread, which leads to disinformation. I don't have a problem with it being the French, nor Bardot, nor muslims, I just think it'd be a shame if you guys were misinformed from this small fact here and from there let ideas grow on the wrong path.
I'm not afraid of muslims and do see the forest and the trees and the fungus on the bark, too. I grew up in the melting pot of France, I think I mentioned this a bunch of times already, so I won't repeat the details again.
The "problem with Muslims" in France could be resumed (it can't, but ill do it for the sake of conversation here) to a very plain fact that is true in any other country on this planet. Both sides reap what they sow. The french have their peculiarities, so do the maghrebins and other middle easterners, mix it all together in specific quantities and circumstances, and you cook up something that might have been different under a different recipe.
I don't deny that Islam has some (imo) back-asswards principles to it, at very fundamental levels, but getting in that argument would bring out the scholars, against which I have nothing to back what I'm nearly certain of, except about a dozen years lived on and off everywhere between podunk country side villages, dangerous suburbs in the middle of Paris' bowels, and very rich higher class families.
All things considered, my only real problem is with misinformation. Those backasswards muslims you guys rant about are as misinformed about you guys as you guys are about at least a few pretty critical things. It's obvious it's not interesting to study things to such a depth just for the sake of it, but nonetheless that's the only way to make an accurate assessment of things.
You can't take a whole country's miriad of cultural elements and pick one, out of context, to extrapolate everything else from it.
Back to the freedom of speech thing - Bardot's a stupid old b***. There's few ways to say it more accurately. Her problem isn't with criticizing islam or muslims, it's that the TRUE rationale behind her statements is racism, a racism that's the same affront to Good with a capital G that leads the US to do stuff like liberate some ragheads on the other side of the planet, etc.
The author's following novel, Plateforme (2001), earned him a wider reputation. It is a romance, told mostly in the first-person by an aging male arts administrator, with many sex scenes and an approbation of prostitution and sex tourism. The novel's depiction of life and its explicit criticism of Islam and the Muslim faith, together with an interview its author gave to the magazine Lire, led to accusations against Houellebecq by several organisations, including France's Human Rights League, the Mecca-based World Islamic League and the mosques of Paris and Lyon. Charges were brought to trial, in circumstances reminiscent of the controversy over Salman Rushdie's novel The Satanic Verses at the end of the 1980s; but a panel of three judges, delivering their verdict to a packed Paris courtroom, acquitted the author of having provoked racial hatred, ascribing Houellebecq's opinions to the legitimate right of criticizing religions.
"... but the fear is allowed to rule." And there's truth to that Gunthr, the everyday average French folk's errors with respect to muslim immigrants are often enough only due to them being afraid of some strange people with strange customs. The problem here is that even though you made a good diagnosis, Bardot's saying something similar, on the surface, is just a coincidence. It's pretty unlikely her intentions are defendable as yours probably are.
Hell, I shouldn't have to argue this.. Check out Jean Marie Le Pen, yourself. That's who Bardot's emulating. :lol
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We now have roughly 15% of the population of mexico living here ILLEGALLY and with them, they bring crime, poverty and disease. We have had an administration refuse to enforce our own laws, and those running for the white house in november have been right in line with this lawlessness. We have a few of our border patrol agents who are now political prisoners who are in jail for enforcing our laws and shooting an armed drug smuggler in the rear-end!
I lived in Phoenix for a while, I know about that first hand.. and 15%, if that number's right, is pretty bad.
What if an outsider picked up on this factoid and assumed it was the will of the American people? You'll agree that's an overly simplified way of seeing it, right?
Unregulated immigration cannot work - ever - particularly when the immigrants do not wish to assimilate or wish to do harm to your country and government.
The new french prez knows this and, from the start, went for a pretty stringent reform of immigration policies. Among other supporting evidence, he cited specificaly the US for biasing their immigration to 'useful' additions to the country. He caught a bunch of flak for this, but the fact is he's right.. "Why should France have to bear the burden of the rest of the world?", as he put it. But if I hadn't told you this, would you have accounted for it in your big picture of the way things are playing out in france?
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.....the everyday average French folk's errors with respect to muslim immigrants are often enough only due to them being afraid of some strange people with strange customs....
...customs like....burning people's cars and blowing stuff up :aok---ok, I'll grant the need to pray 5X a day---but telling women to get out during this time, demanding areas where said prayers can be performed and 'footbaths' can be acquired, demanding Sharia law----They are trying to turn <insert fairly normal-western country here> a nice NEW country into the chithole they left behind in Africa. Perhaps they might take 10 seconds to look at western culture and take note of how we don't live in huts with dirt floors, or stone our women for wearing nail polish. Bardot is probably all the things Moot says--(because she was once pretty doesnt make her nice) but it doesnt make the encroachment of Islam into western society any less troubling
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But that's not the way all muslims are, and the proportion that isn't that way isn't negligible. I'm pretty sure it's not a minority, and as far as I know it is probably the majority.
I think one thing that's underestimated is the demographics factor.. You might be right, but if you're only 10 versus 1000, you're gonna get a footnote at most, in the history books, as far as who was right is concerned. Spelling things out so that the rationale that makes you 'right' is so transparent and undeniable to even the most back asswards people, in that 10:1000 case, may just not be enough.
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Can't speak to France, but in UK and parts of USA, said squeaky wheel is getting the grease
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Moot, I don't know the lady, but I have no reason to doubt she is a vile pig if you say so.
I also don't care.
Unless she was explicitly calling for acts of violence, I don't think her, or anyone else, should ever have to face arrest for expressing an idea. No matter how unpopular.
France is entitled to its own laws, but I'd have thought there were certain ideals that should be so ingrained in Western societies as to be universal.
Regards,
Wab
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You're probably right.. It doesn't matter what road something took, if it ends up in the ditch.
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Nope 74
(http://stupidcelebrities.net/wp-content/524.jpg)
OMG, are you sure that the figure on the left is not Jabba the Hut?????????
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// to lot of people who posted in this thread
Why are you speaking of free speech ? it's an American phantasm not existing in France.
She will be judged and the judgement will be guilty or not according to our laws not your sentiments.
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I have to agree with Straffo here, the freedom of speech you hold so high exists only in the United Sates of America.
We have no such freedom here in Australia no matter how much the powers that be try to tell you.
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She will be judged and the judgement will be guilty or not according to our laws not your sentiments.
As she should be. As I said above this isn't her first offense. She knows well the laws she violated. At best she will be fined yet again.
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Yadayayayda... free speech is ok, but burn a piece of cloth with stars on it and see the folks posting here go running around with their hair on fire. pot, kettle etc...
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Saw, you know that's not every single american... You're doing the same thing they're doing with the free speech thing.
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Yadayayayda... free speech is ok, but burn a piece of cloth with stars on it and see the folks posting here go running around with their hair on fire. pot, kettle etc...
Burning a flag is not illegal. Your comparison is not valid.
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Puts me in the mood to go watch some old Bardot films. I had forgotten how totally smokin she was at one time.
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Burning the flag is not illegal in the U.S.A. as a matter of fact it is protected by the first amendment (freedom of speech).
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well, this has been an eye-opening discussion... maybe i am just a bit ethnocentric attempting to apply our standards to France. (I really don't think I'd like to live there but I'd love to visit sometime.) I didn't know Le Pen was that bad, or that the old bimbo Bardout was really a racist either.
<S>
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I didn't know Bardot was such a racist. Interesting. Thanks Moot.
BTW, I would second what Moot said about France - it's a great place. Great food, beautiful open countryside and some of the people are ok too. Apart from Saw and Straffo who are ghastly. ;) I know people who have lived there, and they loved it.
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Sorry, this thread has just left a bad taste in my mouth for French civil society. Paris is definitely OFF my vacation list.
I'll just have to visit somewhere else I can be over-charged and insulted everywhere I go.
Thats right. I'll be spending my tourist dollars in New York!
:cool:,
Wab
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Thats right. I'll be spending my tourist dollars in New York!
The exchange rate is favorable too. Near unity.
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Sorry, this thread has just left a bad taste in my mouth for French civil society. Paris is definitely OFF my vacation list.
I'll just have to visit somewhere else I can be over-charged and insulted everywhere I go.
Thats right. I'll be spending my tourist dollars in New York!
Wab
Why not try south Florida instead? They even have some topless beaches, just like they have on the French Riviera.
Oops, I think I have just sinned again. :uhoh :uhoh
Will anyone here please offer to beat me with a stick?
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Will anyone here please offer to beat me with a stick?
I think you have to go to Amsterdam for that.
:t,
Wab
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She's being fined for that?
A well, looks like we'll have to rescue France from itself again someday :cool:
Dang, she was hot back in the day. A long, long time ago
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I didn't know Bardot was such a racist. Interesting. Thanks Moot.
BTW, I would second what Moot said about France - it's a great place. Great food, beautiful open countryside and some of the people are ok too. Apart from Saw and Straffo who are ghastly. ;) I know people who have lived there, and they loved it.
My cousin part owns a restaurant in Paris, he was out here a couple of months ago for a family reunion with his french girlfriend, and yeah it sounds fantastic - we're going to take up his offer for some free accommodation and a tour guide when the boys are old enough...
Tronsky
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I don't think you would regret in Tronski. Of all the cities in the world I think Paris is somewhere I'd like to live, probably in my top three after Berlin and Budapest.
BTW, I've been talking to a visa consultant about Oz. Because my wife-to-be is a registered staff nurse, I can get in on her Visa application. It's then down to cost - go the expensive skilled visa route, which is for permanent residence and allows us to own property (I could do that on my own merits); or if she gets sponsored by a hospital she gets the sponsored Visa which cheaper, takes only a few months compared to 18 months for the skilled visa costs less than £500 compared to £3500. Although the latter doesn't allow you to own property and you get booted out of the country if she loses her job and can't find another.
I think we are pretty serious about doing it - at least to try see if we like it down under. :)