Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Special Events General => Topic started by: busc on October 22, 2000, 09:15:00 AM
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- RONNI just told us that the "sector counters" off is now working (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- I am now working on how limitating altitude with descending winds, i hope it will be done for next Saturday...I think max altitude will be setted at 25k (with strong descendin winds) and a weaker winds at
24-23k to give a good realism and ballance (allies planes were really better at such alts and such alts were actually reached in combat by fighters).
HST, as any newborn structure is having some problems...But dont give up, we are learning from our errors...
HST rappresents a different, more realistic and complex, way to use Aces High...It will take time, but when all the squad will consolidate into organized groups of pilots (thanks to the increasing relyability and ability to coordinate an comunicate of COs,XOs and pilots) they will also start "living" by themselves..
THIS MEANS:
CMs will learn better how to use commands and wich commands can be used (for ex. yesterday i desperately tried to switch off radar counters..just to discover today tht was impossible) COs and XOs will be able to create missions by themselves, pilots will know wher to go and what to do..Walkons will get the "go 112 channel and wait from " everyone when askin "where i go? i want f4u."...all the work will be done quicker better and with more partecipation and fun by pilots and COs....
But this takes many weeks and many emails and many squadrons websites..It is not easy i know...But i trust in this project, because i think that i am not the only one unhappy with the N1k-Chog-Main-arena..And I am not the only one wanting a sim and not a game...wanting a more complex experience, closer to a virtual fightin pilot experience.
BuSc
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WTG
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Nice! I forgot about the wind. Very creative!
-Westy
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Oh you mean that now, when my P47's will find Co-alt 109s at 20K, we will run away while 109 will get frustrated and ask why we don't fight?
Lowering max altitude for fighters, is definatly a step backward from realisum. What's next? Allied fighters prohibited from diving away when at less than 6k from a LW plane?
Most people cry for realisum but can't handle it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I for one am willing to have you all try anything to improve the sim!! I will wait and see how your judgement unfolds.
<S> ( a big one too) for your ability to withstand all the negs generated so far.
Thanks for hanging in there and improving things. I hope there are others that appreciate your efforts!!
I had a wonderful time enjoying our B-17 raid and look forward to many more fun filled hours in the future (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Once again <S>(BIG TIME)
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Just a side comment here guys, but 35k fights over Sicily are not realistic either.
If altitude limits are what it takes to get fights down to the altitudes they took place at, then thats what needs to be implemented.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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can't really call that a fight at 35K either Vermillon. Because if you fight at 35K, 2 passes later you down to 20K (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Oh and the heck with it, go ahead, do what you want and have fun. It was a pleasure to have seen you around in this scenario anyway.
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Allied pilots view.
Ok if the Dar bars are off thats all thats needed cos if your at 30k you are never gonna spot lower enemies.
I wonder tho how many complaints about alt are from Axis ?
Hey historically your planes were crap at that alt and the allies were better.
So you want lower fights well thats easy no Dar bar then we gotta come down to hunt.
Of course another option is for you to fly where YOU want to fight, if your plane excels at 10k well hell fly at 10k then we gotta come down after you.
You wanna hunt buffs (do they have time to get that high ?) then swap squads to a plane that is better at alt.
You cannot blame the allies for using their planes where they operate best if you persist in trying to climb after them !
Jeez guys use your brains, if your flying at a lower altitude hell yes we HAVE to come down and fight cos we cannot just fly high and let you pound our bases now can we ?
You want us below 15k then fly at 10 and try to sucker us in. Now THAT would be realistic, not some half brained scheme to impose a hard ceiling.
Somehow i dont think the Axis designed and built a plane that excelled at 10 or 15k then said there you go now try and climb to 30k and fight.
You are/were expected to make your operating altitude your territory. Have your bombers fly where your fighters excel then dare us to come in and get our tulips kicked.
Oh yes and wingman tactics Camo can help you with those if anybody struggles with the thought.
Problem solved.
But somehow i expect you all to violently disagree (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I am very happy for this feedback...
About max altitudes:
- first problem is working accurately how realizing that (descending winds would be the best..but I am having some probs setting em..I will prolly need to use crosswinds continuously changing direction)
- deciding which altitudes should be limited will be a long work too...Personally I would love to be as much historically realistic as possible..
The ideal would be having descending wind that starts existin from 22k and increases about this way:
- 22-24k weak-->8-10kts
- 24-26k medium---> 10-15kts
-26-28k strong--->20 kts
-28-30k very strong-->25kts
PlzNote: all windvelocities are just as i theorized em rite now w/no any actual experimental confirm...so they prolly will change.
As I said...I am having a lil problem...It seems that it is not possible to assign negative raise values to wind...I tried, but systems tell me "lift values: 0-127"..That should mean tht neg. values are still not implemented...But I ve hope to resolve this, because i ve read a post from HTC staff (in CMs BB) saying that it is possible to use negative lift values...so probably I just need to understand how [--> to any CM/HTCstaff tuned--> if u know how to do tht plz help me].
If I get some help we can do a even better work:
- Anyone have some datas of allied ww2 combat altitudes datas and a scanner? (no memories, flight logs, reports, pilot manuals)
The other idea, if negative lift remains impossible for now is this:
- using strong crosswinds continuously changing directions--> this is not as realist and effective as the other one..and requires the CM typing a lot during the scenario...but i already have used it and it works.
thanks a lot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif),
BuSc
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Hmmm....
What does this prove? If you whine you win? (or at least better odds)?
The first time I played and the Axis did not win very convincingly and the rules get changed?
Please tell me I did not read this between the lines!
BTW I saw allied Icons out to 9.5k and axis Icons out to 8.6k.
Thanks! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Anyway, more golf..."
Humble
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Well i realise we cross posted there Busc and you probably never saw my views , but i get the idea this has already been decided upon and i have to wonder how many people who want it changed were allied ?
Or do the allies thoughts not count ?
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If artificial caps are imposed the 346th Bombardment Squadron will have a new CO.
Please advise soonest as I invest about 6 hours prior to the event start and my XO invests as much or more planning and refining the mission and I could use the time for something else.
If these scenarios are going to be adjusted to suit whoever cries the loudest they have no value to me.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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just read Cavalear reply (it was posted while i was editing my last one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)).
Cavalear I do agree about the fact that allied planes were better at high altitudes and must remain better also here.
But i disagree about one thing: that is realistic flying quietly at 30-32k for any ww2 prop plane.
This from my experience on modern aircrafts:
- Rectilinear flying w/no decrease/increase of alt or speed respects 1 equation, where thrust , drag , lift n weight are perfectly ballanced
- todays Liners and Executive jets fly at such alts..and olso older aircrafts with alternative-engines equipped w/compressors were able to reach and sometimes mantain very high altitudes...question is, why?
- Was the air?...Mmm, it's true, air is thicker there and this means less drag...but also less lift!...So why climbin there when the aerodynamic output is the same ? (u have to use ur engine thrust less to go forward but more to remain up!)..nope this is not the point...
-The point is: engine!
A jet engine gets a great advantage from high alt flyin..Less fuel consumption...This is cause of the stechiometric percentage (air/fuel) ....The characteristic of an alternative-engine equipped with a compressor is similar, but it is like comparing a 1960 Rover Mini to a 1995 to a 1998 Nissan Micra...They do both the same job...but performance are "slightly" different...
- 1940 prop planes were almost all not equipped with compressor, but things quickly developed during the war...The compressor appeared: a smart invention that was able to boost up the stechiometric percentual ------> the engine thrust at high altitudes (air is thick up..u compress it..u get a better ossigenated burnin fuel into ur engine...all goes better)
- But i ve read a lot about p47s w/no guns tryin to going 25k ...and...without touchin sticks, and w/wings levelled... entering in auto-rotation and riskying to get into strange assects---> a no-exit-flat-spin.
I know for sure that p47, 38 and 51 ceilings were 30-5k high...but those were not-armed planes with few fuel and people like Lindberg piloting....So I find hard to accept dogfights involving p47s w/9 machine guns easilly rollingaround their wings with no conseguences at 30K...
BTW i want enuff technical and historical datas before deciding (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) BuSc
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To be clear this this has NOT already been decided (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I will decide to use alt limitations
only if:
1) the great majority of the players agree (we could test em in funframes to see if em are acceptable and provide more fun)
2)i find relyable historical/technical proofs that this would be realistc.
thanks, Busc
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Personally, I don't want altitude limits to this scenario. Remove radar completely, drop the enemy icon distances to 3k and that should do the trick. Yes, some axis pilots have brought their wishes of an alt limit to our attention, but I don't find that a good idea. The allies can climb to 30k if they wish. But they won't find us fighting them there.
Yesterday, my five 109s had little trouble with 6 higher P47s and P38s at around 30k. We stayed lower and didn't let them close. When we finally managed to drag them to 15k, we shot 4 down and 1 ran away. One P47 was seen in a steep dive at 20k earlier, looked like he compressed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
But at the same time other units were not as lucky. They were overwhelmed by higher enemies and forced on the defensive. They had little success but generally managed to survive well. But I guess that is the way the war goes: some units have success, others not so much. All in all, the axis managed well even though being the "underdog".
I hope there will be no hasty decisions made regarding rules changes or altitude limits. I suggest we play with the current rules and get the arena settings correct from now on. With that department in order, we can reassess the situation and see what to do if these kinds of issues arise.
It is not easy to be the Axis CO in this scenario, I tell you, but so far my men have done very well. We will continue to wipe the floor with the allies, regardless of what the settings will be. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Best regards,
Axis CO - Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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Glad to hear its not already been decided Busc and you still have an open mind on the subject.
Btw i am not even suggesting there will be dogfights at 30k plus, hell its bad enuf keeping airborne up there without fighting even for P38.
If a cap ever is applied it must be as your last 2 points suggested.
But i know at least 2 Allied pilots who will depart if it is.
I really do feel the points i made in my earlier post are all thats needed to bring the fights down.
Also keep in mind the P38 does not even make its best speed until approx 26k and some wanna cap at 20k or 25k ???
Just seen your reply above Camo and i kinda thought you would appreciate its not all sweet and rosy being at high alt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Its very difficult to spot enemy aircraft, as i said earlier if the bar dar was off we would have to have gone lower to hunt, and compression is a big issue as well when trying to set up any attack from alt.
As Camo stated fly where you the Axis want to fight and make us come down to you. Listen to him because Camo understands tactical fighting thats probably why his squad did so well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Only one disagreement i think the local field dot radar only should be enabled as its not realistic that the field would not report to HQ as being under attack.
By the time thats seen its gonna be too late to stop the raid anyway but think of the panic it would create in the Command centers seeing a base getting attacked and desperately trying to think how to divert resources to cover it. In doing so of course opening up other areas for a real attack (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Without the local dot radar showing fields being attacked you will not be able to set up feint attacks to divert enemy away from your real target.
[This message has been edited by 214thCavalier (edited 10-22-2000).]
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Not exact passages from Ops orders, but here are a few quotes from a book "The Mighty Eighth" - all quotes are bomber related unless otherwise mentioned afterwards.
pg 190 - "The Luftwaffe pilots withdrew, bloodied after a series of dogfights at 30,000 feet, prime conditions for the Thunderbolts" - refering to the Schweinfurt raid
pg 229 - "We flew at 24,000 feet going in." - a B17 raid on Frankfurt
pg 255 - "4 March 1944, 28,000 feet over Berlin...minus 65 degrees...[On at least one B17, the bomb doors froze]"
pg 261 - "Our group was near Hanover, Germany, around 23,000 feet and heading east. A gaggle of German fighters were below us around 18 to 19,000 feet, set there as a decoy. Several thousand feet above us was a much larger group" - a P38 pilot on fighter sweep
pg 100 - "We were at 25,000 feet, flew over Bremen our primary target. Engaged by flak and fighters. We took violent evasive action all the while.."
pg 113 - "My last look at our altimeter in the ship was at 26,000 feet" - Navigator Wayne Gotke, after bailing out of a B17
I could find more, but the general theme is that the bombers flew at mid 20's, up to nearly 30,000 even, and the fighters on both sides did the same. This is, for the most part, refering to the bigger bomber raids and not simple fighter sweeps (except the one quote).
When I can find it, there is a passage in one of my books on the RCAF that refers to fighting over the channel, and how both sides felt that fighter sweeps at 26,000 feet were getting out of hand, and brought their sweeps down to about 15,000 feet. Don't go flaming what's in this paragraph as I don't recall the exact words used, just the overall general wording. More to follow.
Cheers
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Look, I underrstand tactical fighting too. And it doesn't take a genius to realize that the 190 force is useless when all the enmies are at 30k.
The enemies already have speed (except the Spits) on us, now add huge amounts of alt. And add it at very high altitude where the 190 is a true pig.
I'm flying because it is fun, and constantly trying to grab at 0.45k/m only to be boounced, then regrab, then bounced, is not my idea of fun.
How much fun can it be for the allieds to meet no resistence
Busc has a problem either way he goes and people will be unhappy. Some allie pilots will leave, or some LW pilots will leave.
But look at it this way; the allieds are arguing for an advantage in altitude; the LW is arguing for having a chance to fight back.
Those P-47's made a very unwise tactical decision and paid the price. I doubt they'll repeat it.
Just my opinion, and discard it if it's not to your liking.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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To add something to Camo's post, we were 4 P47's Vs 6 109's. We were slightly higher like 33K vs 30K.
1 p47 compressed and died right away, but for the rest of the fight (goal keeping them away from our buffs), we couldn't gain advantage, even "in our territory". When u doing a fast pass at a 109, he was split S and u couldn't aim properly at him. Only way was to throttle down and follow him but then you get killed by his wingmen.
the way the fight really happened was more all of us doing some wide turns and couldn't gain any advantage over the others.
When we went lower and could start do have some "more usuall" type of fighting around 10-15K then it was in 109s territory. We lost a P47 into the ack of an eni field (fight came near a captured field). I personally got shot down at 10k from a 109 in my 500y 6 while doing 450-500 TAS, didn't saw him coming there ... oups. The last P47, Sancho, dived away and got a 109 follwing him to the deck at more than 500 MPH, and got shot down too.
So you guys, please don't give me the crap about plane performances and limited altitude. Camo's 109s demonstrated that altitude restriction is not needed.
Now if some got shot down because they didn't saw the bad guy diving on them, too bad, don't blame the game, blame your SA.
The B17 we were covering were flying 26K, more than enought for them to get killed by any WW2 plane coming from 30K. When I saw the 6 109's at 30K and the buffs were vulnerable below, I never thought "&^%$#@ LW alt monkeys &^%$#@". They choosed to engage us (P47 escort) rather than diving on the buffs and chop them into pieces. Even if they had dive to kill them, it would had been perfectly fine with me and I don't think B17's would had yelled "Alt monkeys" either.
As some mentioned, put radar off, we will have to go low if our job is to intercept LW planes.
I disaprove the altitude limitations, I may reconsider my involvement in this scenario if it's approved. Not frightening anyone here, or putting pressure, just my point of view, altitude limitation is not synonym of realisum for me.
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Santa (shakes hands quicky and throws a beer in Santa's hand), What is the goal of the fighters in the scenarios?
The goal is to protect the bombers to arrive over their targets and go back home. The goal of a fighter is not to kill an another fighter for the fun of it. Fighters kill each others because ones needs to protect something and the other to destroy it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Bombers fly 25K, can you protect them while flying 25K too? You bet it's a no, so we go to 30K. Did we engaged the 109's to kill them? No, we engaged them to keep them buzy while our bombers were passing by 15NM away. Did the 109's engaged us to score some P47s? No they engaged us to keep us away from A7.
If I exagerate it, I could say that if the 109's were cruising on deck and us at 30k, we would not had enaged them, knowing they were no threat to our mission.
looks like people not really fly "mission oriented" but "dogfight oriented" and that's maybe why they complain about altitude.
About your FW rate of climb vs Spits. May I recall you that we were flying P47's with 2DTs Vs 109's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And none of us complained about anything.
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DUDEDUDUM...what to do? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
OK...
Ok,lets avoid wind-alt-limitator-o'matic
............................. ....................I HAVE 2 NEW THINGS IN MIND.......
2 easy to realize Ideas....lemme know what u think...
1) I see that b17s were at 26000k ...Ok..lets say that this was realistic..but..in real world's ww2 this caused the drammatic lack of precision in "precision daylight bombings".. 1 of the main causes was wind (other problems were probably given by time of releas in 1 single pass and box formation bombin)...
We could set some layers of medium winds
at certain altitudes...and actually, if i am not wrong, wind influences bomb drops also in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
An example: a 10 kts from 130° wind from 6k to 7k ; a 19 kts wind from 122 from 12k to 14k ; a 14kts crosswind at 24-28k....
...Obviously i would not tell wind alts/directions/speeds (read the story of Rudolf Hesse to discover ww2
areonautical-meteo-bullettins quality) ....
..This would be for sure realistic !
(anyone that flies anything knows how frequently u find wind......(if u want a confirm of this just look a METAR or TAF=meteo-observations/forecasts from anywhere in the world right now----------------> http://airmet.ch) (http://airmet.ch))
In WW2 smoke was extensively used to hide strategical targets...maybe...detonating (w/ .det command) some fuel dumps near the target when the enemies are saw inbound could force the bombers to descend lower or to bomb with less precision..This could be very realistic too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
By the way I think that 30k dogfights are actually not realistic.... i've read those accounts..and thanks a lot for starting sending documents..but..I am considering 2 things about em -->pressure altitude of a ww2 altimeter can be fu**d by: wind,low pressure layers, ice in the statics + personally i dont trust too much in war-memories and commercial aviation books)
....Lemme know.....
Thanks once again for being here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif),
BuSc
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correct link is : http://airmet.ch/ (http://airmet.ch/)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I am againts alt caps
if we get the proper icon and radar settings (dar off enemy icons 3k) this will help alot. a fighter cap at 30k would never even SEE the 15k ju-88s passing below them possibly.
If the B17s stay at a reasonable range (and I consider 23-26 k reasonable) then I don't see a reason to impose it. the allies had betetr performing A/C at alt, exploit that!
if the axis used strat with THEIR bomber force i would force the allies low for defense. I think imposing artificial alt caps is a bad idea, and I am not writing it into the ROE as long as the buffs (and I think sunchaser has done an OUTSTANDING job with his b17s and r2ch has done real well with the ju-88s) its fair.
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I believe that winds layers will screew up dogfighting too, as when u will pass each wind layer your plane is temporary jerking. It will throw up your aim/flying away.
maybe to be more historical, buffs would had to drop all their loads in one time, up to them to set the delay?
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Hehehehe
A little question...are wind gusts and turbulence realistic?...If you have flown more than a couple of times in your life(especially on a tourism single engined, but also on a liner) you must know that they are.....So why complaining that wind layers could shake your plane while you are aiming at an enemy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ?...this happens all the time in real world...and trust me...as Murphy told us it actually happens right when you need it to not happen...I ALWAYS found 15kts gust wind when was hurrying my lil light PA18 on final due to overcast 300feet closin on the field and around (it actually happens more than often in the valley next to the Alps where Milan is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
So dont you think that a turbulence, shacked many guys just right before firing?
I think that maybe 3 different wind layers would be too many, but one single big w-layer should be the right choice (for ex: 12kts wind from 20 to 24k)...
Wind is one realistic option of AH..Why not using it? Because was all easier without wind?
Mmm then lets go all flying X-wing vs Tie-fighter...No wind in deep-space (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)..
Hope someone agree (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) to this point of view
BuSc
[This message has been edited by busc (edited 10-22-2000).]
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More of a question based on Vermillion's post. Assuming that each of the planes in the engagement is modeled properly, why would we want to keep an airplane at an altitude which is below where that aircraft performs best? I don't believe that these scenarios should attempt to replicate the altitudes engagements where historically fought. My feeling is that these scenarios should present "what/if" situations otherwise we already know the outcome.
Beeg
Originally posted by Vermillion:
Just a side comment here guys, but 35k fights over Sicily are not realistic either.
If altitude limits are what it takes to get fights down to the altitudes they took place at, then thats what needs to be implemented.
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As i said...
I have decided with camo and zig that
no alt limitations with wind will be used
But...
I'm really convinced that using crosswinds to limitate the precision of high alt bombin (wich, as it is without wind, is NOT realistic) will help a lot!
I think that this will leave untouched freedom, but add more realism, because:
1- If the bombers want to stay high they will have to accept lack of precision
2- If they want more accurate bombing, they can descend...just like actually happened in ww2 (please check bombrun altitudes of 8th air force precision raids over Normandie/Cale-area in may-june 1944)
THIS TIME--> Please STOP discussin about alt limitations..Because they will be NOT implemented in HST...And start giving me feedback about THIS idea..And the smoke idea Thanks again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...BuSc
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Frenchy S!
your observations on the 109G2vsP47 engagement are dead on, except the numbers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
To make it clear we were 5 109's and we engaged 6 p47's, where 2 turned away (to close escort B17's?) and one compressed early, so this 3 v 5 continued without violent dogfight until the 2 p38's arrived.
We had then accomplished our mission to escort for the A7 raid and you had taken us way out of reach from the B17's, so now we both could engage with nothing more in mind than our own life (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Read my debriefing in Camo's Axis AAR.
Oh and I say don't make ceilings. Let the icons determine efficient alts.
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Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
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Personally I`d love to be able to Drop On Lead and NOT bomb individual acks - thats for the MA. But because the gameplay in the HST has base capture, thats what we have to do. Give us (346th BG) a nice big city to bomb with the .salvo command and we`ll be happier. Scoring would have to be done on a Post Strike Photo basis, which would be open to interpretation anyway - do all craters show up on everybodies FE?
Smoke idea is good too as we could have a secondary target that`s actually there for a reason.
Oh and a big <S> to Frenchy and his squad, I only saw 1 enemy aircraft all frame on Saturday, and that was about D2.9 BELOW me - nice work.
Wilfrid
XO 346th
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Busc....YES, turn on the wind.
It IS ridiculous for me to be able to put a 250 pound bomb on an anti-aircraft emplacement from 25,000 feet.
That will force us to carry heavier bombs hoping the target is desroyed or damaged by near misses.
Adding this realism factor makes it much more important to get all bombers over the target whereas now the job can be done by 1 or 2.
I do not support an effort to dictate arena wide salvo settings for the bombers though.
The Bomber leaders must be able to determine this one.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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Thx Cav. I hope you crap pilots are doing fine as well. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And like Snef said, please read my Axis AAR here at the SEA bbs. If you have comments or additional info, please share them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Wind gust layers
Sounds like a thing worth trying. I suggest alts below "about 20k" to be gustless. The CM should not tell the exact alt - let the bombers cope with it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The gust layers should be thick enough (2-5k?) so that they dont affect dogfighting too much.
Smoke on the airfields
Will the airfield object smoke for the whole duration of the frame, if rebuild time multiplier is 0? If this is true, then it would be quite nice.
Maybe give each side the ability to smoke 2 objects on 2 different fields? 4 objects alltogether, that is. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Could be pretty nice!
Axis CO - Camo
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Personally speaking i have no problems with Wind or smoke effects to deny the buffs some accuracy.
After all this will just be adding another level of realism and if we want accurate buffing we are gonna come down to play that i have no problems with cos its our choice.
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What Camo Said.
Hamish!
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OK...considering that Sunchaser, wich is the leader of the allied bombers, agrees..
I think i will use crosswinds next week (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(I am very happy)
I agree with Camo's suggestions.. And I agree also with his suggestions about smoke....
Everyone agrees on giving 2 smoke layers to each side in 1 frame?
[lemme know..but please note that smoke with detonations is still to be experimented and i am not sure if it will work or not ]
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) all BuSc
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Just a quick question about the wind shift - are you certain it works against bombs ? I happen to like the idea, just would be nice to check with HTC to make sure, and experiment to find how fast or deep the band has to be to affect bombs. The little bit of wind in the MA doesn't seem to do anything right now.
The smoke idea sounds neat also, if it could be set off in time and last long enough, ie, the CO can set it off when bombers are getting close to the base.
Cheers
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hello all:
thought I would take a couple swings at this hornets nest too. hehehehehehe
ok, start with the wind, yes lets have the wind. now I have never flown a real plane, I have jumped from them, ( sport sky diving)
and winf does make a differantce.
as for the alt cap, I dont care care, and my squad mates better not care either, or they will not be allowed over 10k. you want to worrie about alt caps, better worrie about the big bad CO, and I will take your beer rations as well.
as for those of you not in my squad and can yap all you want, SHUT UP!!!
when you can do a better job then zigrat, busc and all the others putting this together, then by all means go ahead.
as for those pilots that keep saying do this or dont do that because if you do I'm going to quit. well get out now so the rest of us know who we are flying with.
you all whine about this not been real enough. well you want real. WWII, any pilot that cried and decided to just quit, was hunted down and either shot or imprisoned.
no matter how this is set up, not everybody will be happy, somebody will always cry it is not fair. well you get your bellybutton blown off, to bad. learn to fly better. you all picked the team and the planes you wanted to fly, you got what you picked, now fly the danm thing and stop your crying.
Hangtime quit because of problems, well roadkill. he will be here wheather he wants to be or not, and he will danm well smile and be happy too. because there is no way in hell I want the danm job, the allies will all hate me with in a week.
Hangtime, get over your pouting, get back in the game. and take command. if an allied pilot does not listen to you, ground him.
if a CO does not listen, fire him and replace him with somebody from his squad that can do the job. and if that pilot fails, replace him. you all want it to be real, well this is how it was. do the job or be fired. Hangtime, you have been doing a great job up untill this passed Saturday when you deserted your post. but we will let that one go.
now let those that are putting this together do so with out all the whinning from everybody. I think it has been going along just fine so far. and I done have a single kill yet and have been shot down every frame we have flown.
well I will stop now before I end up hanging from a rope.
wolf37
CO
RAF 234 Spitfire squad
Malta (A15)
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"Achtung Kapitän, Spheetfeure!"
"Aber where?"
"Up zere mein Kapitän!"
"But zat Spit is travelling backwards, nicht gut!"
"Ja, das is was man kallt ein Sputnickfeure"
"Zen it is gut zat we haf zese FW's"
"Uhm, Kapitän, FW are not Forward Warp"
"VERDAMMT!"
Heh. I'll probably be in, as I am such a sad and pathetic person that I don't really want to do something else on an early Saturday night. This time, I shall have more beer though.
<S!>
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Seems you've all worked this out to at least most people's satisfaction. Good.
My suggestion would be to set the arena up with these winds a few days prior to the event to let the buffs practice. Otherwise buffing will be a complete crap-shoot.
Just so they will get an understanding of how far off from target a bomb will miss given a certain wind speed at a given altitude.
This may be horse pucky too... I don't know if RL buff drivers knew the wind speed and direction over their targets. Realism should be the goal... so if winds are needed (for buffs... NOT fighters), I'm all for them. If bombadiers knew how to compensate for it, we should let them learn.
Please keep in mind that we're dealing with limitations in AH also... AH has a low level of targets that require pinpoint accuracy to score damage. In RL they were going after a large area of targets with huge salvos. In other words, perhaps they missed the fuel depot by three hundred yards.... yet they plastered the ammo bunker. In AH a missed bomb hits nothing.
Hehe, whatever happens, it should be interesting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I've got faith in y'all.
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hi all:
Santa, just what the hell did you just say.
can you translate that please.
wolf37
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I agree with no hard ceiling and would welcome the wind at high alt.
Regarding buffs and bombs - they should have to drop in salvo - the decrease in accuracy will affect both sides equally. Obviously this will make base capture more difficult, but then the CinCs will have to put squads on jabo missions, to get the capture completed. Also, not all the buff missions wil be against airfields - attacks on other targets will become much more like real life, and it will be more satisfying when a good result is obtained! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As for radar, I agree that bars are off, dots should be on over bases. Somehow, the chain of communications has to be modeled - i.e. a base letting the CO know that it is under attack.
It would be great if we had two CinCs on each side, one flies missions one week, while one coordinates flights. They then swap over.
Wouldn't it be great if instead of dots - the CinC on the ground just got the warning that enemy planes had been spotted overhead (perhaps also the type of plane as well). Perhaps this could be implemented in the future.
Keep up the good work Busc et al - I get the feeling it will all work out in the end. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dowding
346th BS
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-23-2000).]
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Guys, my point is that the scenario you guys are playing may say Mediterranean League, but what it should say is ETO League. Because while you guys are using the Med map, your recreating the tactics used in the ETO.
The war in the Med was not like the war in the ETO. It was much more tactical in nature.
There were not any large sprawling industrial factory complex's that could be successfully hit by mass raids of bombers at 30,000ft. Remember they didn't have the put a bomb in a pickle barrel from the stratosphere Norden sights that we have.
With the exception of certain campaigns like the bombing of the Po River Valley (Italian industrial heartland), the emphasis was on close air support and tactical targets such as bridges, supply dumps, and enemy strongpoints. And to successfully hit such targets, you had to get down in the mud and fight it out there.
THATS why you would fly lower than your aircrafts optimum altitude. Because if you can't do the job your going out to do, why fly the sortie?
You guys are mostly looking at this as a fighter vs fighter setup, with bombers thrown in for spice. In reality, its the other way around. Fighters are there to make sure the bombers can do their jobs unmolested.
Another thing to remember is that in AH aircraft can run at optimum output almost indefinitely (ie you can run at 100% throttle) without the engine overheating. Every aircraft is in factory new condition, and by looking at the arena setups yesterday your flying with a 0.8 fuel modifier. Which means when your flying on a 2.5 to 1 scale map, and using that modifier, you have 3 times the fuel that the real pilots had to fool around with.
Additionally, we have no concerns what so ever about oxygen systems and their reliability problems, or other aircraft problems like heaters.
So sure, climb to the stratosphere you don't have to worry about ditching into the Mediterannean in a life raft because you used up all your fuel.
Just this summer, I got to speak to a WWII pilot at the AirWarrior convention by the name of "Earl" who fly in North Africa, Sicily and later Italy. He flew P-39's, P-38's, and P-47's in that order thru the war. And I particularly asked him how often they flew high altitude missions. His specific answer. "Well... we flew at 20,000ft once".
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Clear to the point Verm. <S>!
Jabo !!
Keyword of italian theatre.
And low alt tactical interdiction for the medium bombers.
IMHO.
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wolf:
I guess I was just trying to say what Verm did.
Oh, btw.
Our Afrika CO can beat up your Afrika CO PTTTFH
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Verm, nicely put. Hard to argue with any of it.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Very well said Verm. Every point.
-Westy
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Very well stated post Verm, however the term "Historical" is applied very very loosely here. Consider a few other Historical elements.
- Historically - The Axis lost in this theatre and withdrew
- Historically - The Axis had severe supply problems
- Historically - The Allies were privy to a lot of German communications via a de-coding device
I pretty much understand your points and your intentions for this scenario. This is a game environment made for fun, if it were a historical environment it would be a lot less fun.
However what I think I see occurring, to some extent, is that a few elements are being pushed here in the context of being historical. At the same time, other equally historical elements are being completely ignored.
Petitioners for historical accuracy sometimes really aren't. IMO they want to achieve game play balance or simply want to gain advantages for their side, vice the notion of historical accuracy.
- Historically - The notion of balance is never a question, the intention of war is to create im-balance
The answer to "Would the bombers have flown at 30k historically?", is yes they would have. The answer to "Why didn't they then?", is that they did not have high accuracy bombsights that we game players have.
Salute! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Anyway, more golf..."
Humble
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The extreme position Mino is to have each player purchase a USB device that sits on top of the monitor and when the pilot is killed, said device discharges a 12.7mm slug into the player's forehead.
With the Med League and Afrika Corps we have two very different approaches to scenario design, run by different parts of the community with different sets of skills and amounts of experience, and they're both grappling with the same problems.
Frankly, it's an exciting time to be an AH player: some will love both environments; and those not satisfied with one of the scenarios will certainly be happy with the other.
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Verm's points are indeed very valid. The problems inherent are that the nature of targets and bombing accuracy make it ok for a hvy bomber to travel at that high of alt.
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I for once decided to drop the med league after yesterdays frame as it depicts imho nothing med theatre fighting was about, and for some other reasons.
Btw, s! Verm, looking forward to Afrika Corps.
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Ciao
Alex
xela, 4° Stormo Caccia
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mmmm, we'll miss u xela (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) ..
But we will survive too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...
Only 2 thing to say...
1)This is a tournament..I am going to give both sides the same chances to win
2) It is difficult to obtain both tactical freedom for the squadrons and realistic low alt tactics ..The day we will get em both i will be an happy man..We just need to find out how..and it seems that we are all workin bad with brains n hearts to get some more good ideas...That time will come, trust me.
Keep the heads UP! This is Your scenario!
Your ideas will make the difference! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BuSc
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Two thoughts, re-bombers...
If all formations (as opposed to single or jabo style bombers) are required to drop on the formation leaders signal(i.e. his drop) and only in salvo(all bmbs at once..at some preset interval .5 sec or ??) then you have accomplished both a need for the leader to pick an aiming point that maximizes the formation pattern effectively (historicaly correct) and brought the AH bombsight's over-effectiveness into a more realistic level of accuracy...
Secondly, this will require a very tight formation to be flown, if the bombs are to hit the target area...some may not care for this aspect, but I would find it fun on an otherwise less than active mission...the concentration required to fly really tight formations would become a game unto itself..(especially if collisions were on.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
As an extra added attraction...how about some high altitude flak (just to make things even more interesting..??)
[This message has been edited by skipper (edited 10-24-2000).]