Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Simaril on April 19, 2008, 12:23:10 AM
-
Had something unbelievable happen tonite in FSO...and wondering if it's aerodynamically possible in real life.
First the believable part. A squaddie and I were tasked with coming in from the west as bait in avengers to draw fighter cover lower and to get westward bases flashing. I harvested an impressive number of toolsheds, but unfortunately we both died to a hail of Nik cannon shells shortly thereafter. (I made a fight of it, but there were too many...evaded the first 3 attackers!)
Anyway, I then joined Daddog as his gunner. His group came in from higher alt and successfully dove in to hit the target. Afterwards, things got hot and we took some hits. In fact, we got pretty well smashed up before some covering fighters showed up to do their stuff.
Daddog's TBM lost both one flap, both airelons, the vertical stabilizer, and the rudder. However, we were able to keep on flying -- as long as the bomb bay doors were open. Apparently with the AH2 flight model, there was enough vertical stabilization from the two longitudinal bomb bay doors to allow the bird to stay in the air!
Daddog managed to bring the bird to the carrier group, crossing 3 sectors but having to work every step of the way. He was able to line up with the carrier, but the bird powerfully wanted to climb. The only way he could reduce alt was by dropping throttle to reduce lift. On final approach, the airspeed dropped low enough that we lost longitudinal control, we flipped over, and hit the drink.
So do you aeronautic guys think we should have even gotten that far? Could the plane have flown without vertical stabilizer and rudder?
-
I wouldn't know really but you could think of the doors open as a Keel on a yacht. Good effort anyway.
-
It not only can happen, but has. Here's just one example.
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/b52-strat/b52_50th/story3.htm
-
Never mind thats it^^^. lol I remember a b52 on a test flight lost its rudder & stabilizer & did some thing weird to get it home I don't remember what? the entire thing was caught on film.
-
Don't forget the b-52 is almost 100 feet long and very flat. The entire thing's a stabilizer! :D
-
Iv watched as a squadie flew home land landed great with both V stabs and rudders gone in a 110. He said it was flying fine like it was just missing the rudder.
-
The pilot used the throttles to control the yaw of the B52. I vaguely remember another incident involving, I believe, a Boeing 707. That plane also made a safe landing.
-
IIRC there was an incident where a DC-10 lost all three hydraulic circuits and the pilot controlled yaw and pitch using the three throttles to bring the plane in to a crash landing.
-
I couldn't believe the logs when I saw you didn't go down. I put 7 20mm rounds into daddog, and when I saw all the pieces fly off, I was sure you weren't going anywhere. By then, all those angry F6s were all over me and one was already glued to my 6.
Nice job all. :salute No sheep bounty for me.
-
I couldn't believe the logs when I saw you didn't go down. I put 7 20mm rounds into daddog, and when I saw all the pieces fly off, I was sure you weren't going anywhere. By then, all those angry F6s were all over me and one was already glued to my 6.
Nice job all. :salute No sheep bounty for me.
I'm a little surprised you didnt get kill credit...but you must have ended your sortie long, long before we crashed. It was about a 30 minute flight home, and had some iffy moments when we took some hits from a Vbase ack we couldnt steer enough around
<S> fun night even if I personally crashed and burned!
-
Hmmm, looks like his doors are open too
(http://www.geocities.jp/torikai0017/okinawa/USS-avenger-essex.jpg)
-
There was civilian airliner in US which lost all of its tail controls after tail engine blew up. IIRC there was a military flying instructor in the plane who finally managed to bring the plane to the airfield with just throttle controls. Only at the very last stages of landing they lost control and the plane crashed but most of the passengers survived the incident.
-C+
-
I think some of you guys are confusing inherent yaw stability with yaw control. It's true that a plane can still be flown following loss of rudder control (due to loss of hydraulics, cables, etc.). The UAL Flight 232 DC-10 that managed to make it to Sioux City after the #2 engine "grenaded" is a great example of superb flying after losing practically all his controls. The pilot, Capt. Haynes, had no rudder and, as he found out later, no elevator control either. He also had no flaps (leading or trailing edge). The fact that he nearly landed the plane intact (the plane dipped a wing tip just as he set it down and subsequently came apart) is a testament to the pilot's skill.
Here's the pilot's description of what happened:
http://yarchive.net/air/airliners/dc10_sioux_city.html
But this plane still had all it's control surfaces intact. This meant that it was still statically stable and would fly, it just didn't respond to steering inputs. A plane losing both it's rudder and vertical stab is a whole nuther story. You'd obviously lose yaw control, but depending on the aircraft and whatever roll-yaw coupling it exibits, you might be able to fly it, but it would be extremely flakey and mushy. And as soon as you slowed down to land it might reach out and slap you real bad.
I'm a little surprised that leaving the weapons bay doors open on the TBM really helped at all. The bay is essentially the length of the torpedo. And since the torpedo would obviously be centered on the CG of the aircraft, I would expect the open doors to contribute equal amounts of instability (fwd of the CG) and stability (aft of the CG). In other words, IMO the effect of open doors would be a "wash".
Anyway, it obviously can be done. The B-52 pulled it off. But like Krusty said, the B-52 has a lot of side area aft of the CG, which contributed a lot to stability. And I believe they had their gear down, which in the B-52 probably helped as well.
Just my $.02 :salute
-
There was civilian airliner in US which lost all of its tail controls after tail engine blew up. IIRC there was a military flying instructor in the plane who finally managed to bring the plane to the airfield with just throttle controls. Only at the very last stages of landing they lost control and the plane crashed but most of the passengers survived the incident.
-C+
Neg on the military instructor. That was the flight's captain , a very experienced guy, who brought it back. Later, in the hospital, he saw footage of the airliner tumbling on the landing and it looked so bad he thought it was another flight without survivors.
-
Neg on the military instructor. That was the flight's captain , a very experienced guy, who brought it back. Later, in the hospital, he saw footage of the airliner tumbling on the landing and it looked so bad he thought it was another flight without survivors.
Karnak, Capt. Haynes was a Marine Corp. flight instructor prior to flying airliners. But I think it was the 25 years he had in big commercial's that let him pull this off. This guy is the Real Deal. :salute
-
Multiple engine aircraft will almost always have a easy-er landing with this kind of damage.
Get it in a single engine plane, the yaw cant be controlled,and you eat dirt.
I wounder how a fighter like a f-18 would fly with no tail's, if the two center engines are to close together to realy aid in keeping the plane headed in one direction.
---||O||--- vs. ---||-||--O--||-||---
-
well this is kinda like that
I seen somethin about a f15 pilot who was in a colishion with another plane or somethin, comepletely tore off his left wing, he dident notice until he landed
some people said that the f15 shape had arodynamics of a rocket
-
well this is kinda like that
I seen somethin about a f15 pilot who was in a colishion with another plane or somethin, comepletely tore off his left wing, he dident notice until he landed
some people said that the f15 shape had arodynamics of a rocket
I believe it was an IAF F-15 you're talking about and it's the HUGE stabilator that let the pilot pull this off. Most modern fighters have relatively massive horizontal control surfaces for generating large pitching moments at low speed. All that area makes for plenty of lift, especially for a plane that already has low wing loading.
-
well this is kinda like that
I seen somethin about a f15 pilot who was in a colishion with another plane or somethin, comepletely tore off his left wing, he dident notice until he landed
some people said that the f15 shape had arodynamics of a rocket
"In thrust we trust" I think. As Cthulu said, that large area is a major help, but also, these planes really dont need wings nowadays in the way they used to. At low speeds, those stabilators came into play, but as long as your flying fast, I would think the power of the engines alone would keep you flying.
-
"In thrust we trust" I think. As Cthulu said, that large area is a major help, but also, these planes really dont need wings nowadays in the way they used to. At low speeds, those stabilators came into play, but as long as your flying fast, I would think the power of the engines alone would keep you flying.
Something has to generate lift. Conventional, non-vectored engines don't do it. They just serve to shove the vehicle thru the air with sufficient velocity for the vehicle to generate lift. The more thrust, the less "lifting area" needed. Notice I said lifting area, not wing area. We (Lockheed) make missiles with no wings at all that are capable of very high-G maneuvers. The body of the missile generates all the lift needed. And trust me, what's essentially a pipe ain't exactly aerodynamically efficient from a lift standpoint. :D But it doesn't matter because we're going so freakin' fast. (would you believe over 3000 mph @ SL? :O
So, in essence you're right about the thrust Serenity, but that doesn't tell the full story of why that F-15 was able to fly and land. Remember that when he lost a wing (and I've seen the pictures, he lost the whole wing), the pilot was left with tremendous asymmetric lift. The remaining wing gave him plenty of lift, but the lift vector just happened to be nowhere near the CG of the airplane. This meant that, barring any other forces acting on the plane, the plane would want to roll like a muther. :D This is where those big stabilators come into play. Working opposite each other, they can generate enough rolling moment to counteract the asymmetric lift (I doubt the remaining aileron could do it), and still generate enough lift or down force to give the pilot pitch control.
-
At one point during the flight, a man by the name of Dennis Fitch offered his assistance to the flight crew. It just so happens that he was a DC-10 instructor and pilot who was deadheading as a passenger on the plane. He was able to offer much assistance in working the throttles to maintain control of the aircraft.
The CVR transcript from the flight is a must-read, and really completes the story. Some of my favorite excerpts follow:
[When Capt. Fitch enters the cockpit]
Captain Haynes: My name's Al Haynes.
Captain Fitch: Hi, Al. Denny Fitch.
Captain Haynes: How do you do, Denny?
Captain Fitch: I'll tell you what. We'll have a beer when this is
all done.
Captain Haynes: Well, I don't drink, but I'll sure as hell have
one. Little right turns, little right turns.
[Approaching for the crash landing]
Sioux City Approach: United two thirty-two heavy, the wind's
currently at three six zero at one one three
sixty at eleven. You're cleared to land on
any runway...
Captain Haynes: [Laughter] Roger. [Laughter] You want to be
particular and make it a runway, huh?
Fitch and the crew were able to maneuver the plane just enough to get it to the runway, and actually touch down near the end, and on the center line. Unfortunately, due to the high airspeed and sink rate of the plane, a wing touched the ground and sent the plane into a somersault, breaking up the aircraft. It is believed that just getting the plane on the ground on the runway is what saved the 185 survivors of the crash
<SALUTE> Captain Hayes & Crew :noid :aok
-
I remember hearing about this guy DustyR. IIRC, he was sitting on the floor straddling the console, operating the throttles and (I believe) helping to push on the rudder pedals. I recall reading that there at least three guys actually flying the plane.