Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: spit16nooby on April 20, 2008, 06:08:52 PM
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I fly the 109K-4 and the 109G-2 a lot and have tons of trouble getting people off my six. A lot of times I will extend especially with the K-4 but often can't with the G-2. Also manuevaribility is often not the option with the K-4 but is possible with the G-2. One of my biggest problems is shaking Spit 16s and La-7s(which are great planes and this is not a whine that they are too good I just have problems with them). The K-4 is a tight race to out accelerate the 16 and requires equal e state to get away but with the K-4 it is useless. Against the La neither stand a chance. Also as already stated manuevarabilty is useless with both 109s against these planes. So what would you guys reccomend.
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The G2 is a good turner. Not as good as an E4, but flown right, you can turn with most planes. Don't be afraid to lose some E and get into a turn fight with it. I'm not saying drop all E to get into a turn fight with a A6M2...but you can get into a little turn fight with an F4U or something of the same turn radius.
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I looked at dockongonzos i'm close to even with La and would probably end up in a matter of pilot skill. Turning with the Spit 16 is useless for extended periods.
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I suggest getting with someone who knows the 109's a little better then me (agent or any of the muppets/other people come to mind) so that they can help you.
For me, (and I fly the g2 whenever I take a break from the 38) in the g2 (or any plane) I try to not let people get close in on my six, as in 600/400 or closer. If someone is coming in on my six from say 1k out, I'll start a gentle turn into them, and then at about 600 (or when I sense they're about to fire) I'll pull up and barrel roll onto they're six for the reverse. If the E states are somewhat similar, I can usually get a decent shot off.
If someone is on your six say 600 out, it's going to be a bit different. Your always going to be in control in this situation in the sense that you decide where the fight is going to go. The person on your six has to follow you if they want to shoot you down. So, you decide where the fight is going, and the other guy has to react to you, meaning you'll have a "time" advantage over them. If the E states are about the same in our little example, I would start a scissors. I'd open the throttle with WEP, and roll left and flat turn, and then back of throttle as I roll back right. I might add a bit of vertical when reversing back, but not necessarily. Most likely they'll go for the shot, and if they miss they're going to over shoot, which then hopefully you can use to covert to the offensive. Obviously this all depends on the situation. If I had alt, I might try a diving turn and then try to reverse back into them.
donkey
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I think it's best to learn from watching films. Here's a couple I came across in my folder that show the art:
Stuck in the middle (http://www.mediafire.com/?vyjj9ntme1d)
For k4: 1v3 k4 (http://www.mediafire.com/?mazx3o9stna)
Watch and learn
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I usually scream "OH GOD" over and over again then berate my squadies when I die for not clearing my six sooner. :)
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THose movies were fun to watch all those pilots had great skill and SA.
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I just had a battle with a guy in a 109, I dont know what kind, and the battle was decided, LA7 vs 109, by his first mistake in going in on another con and thinking I couldnt climb up to him and get behind him. Little did he know I had my speed up fast and was able to climb into his 6. Anyway he did a series of mini loops and dives utilizing the strengths of the 109 in both climbing and diving. This went on for a few minutes with both of us riding the edge and I'll bet he didn't even know how close I was to losing my advantage. Trying to get to killing distance against a good 109 stick, even on his 6, when your in an LA isn't all that easy. Not when he keeps the fight into the vertical.
Luckily he flattened out for a second to long at 600 yrds and I got a lucky burst into him. I wish I had filmed it cause that would have been a good video to view regarding your question. I forget who it was but I think he was better then I, I just got lucky getting on his 6 while in a 5 eny airplane.
If its any consolation a K4 in the hands of somebody skilled in an airplane a LA driver notices immediately. Its a very capable airplane and the odds a noob is in it is extremely low. A 109K4 is a serious threat to a LA-7.
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I think the 1st issue here is in recognizing that 85% of the fight is in the pilot not the plane. A well flown 109 of any flavor is going to be very capable vs the "average" spit or la-7 driver.
A lot of times I will extend especially with the K-4 but often can't with the G-2. Also manuevaribility is often not the option with the K-4 but is possible with the G-2. One of my biggest problems is shaking Spit 16s and La-7s(which are great planes and this is not a whine that they are too good I just have problems with them). The K-4 is a tight race to out accelerate the 16 and requires equal e state to get away but with the K-4 it is useless. Against the La neither stand a chance. Also as already stated manuevarabilty is useless with both 109s against these planes
This is the heart of your problem, your not really fighting. Your either exploiting a positional advantage or running. If you dont believe you can win a fight you wont.
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I fly the 109K-4 and the 109G-2 a lot and have tons of trouble getting people off my six. A lot of times I will extend especially with the K-4 but often can't with the G-2. Also manuevaribility is often not the option with the K-4 but is possible with the G-2. One of my biggest problems is shaking Spit 16s and La-7s(which are great planes and this is not a whine that they are too good I just have problems with them). The K-4 is a tight race to out accelerate the 16 and requires equal e state to get away but with the K-4 it is useless. Against the La neither stand a chance. Also as already stated manuevarabilty is useless with both 109s against these planes. So what would you guys reccomend.
the K4 is a monster in the vertical, if you need to, pull them to vert.
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Tom Cruise said it best, "Gonna hit the breaks and hell fly right by" :D
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Tom Cruise said it best, "Gonna hit the breaks and he'll fly right by" :D
;)
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Ooops sorry about my poor grammar :rolleyes:
Thanks Eskimo :aok
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109's (and most german planes) are way more maneuvrable if you use less engine power, especially when your nose is towards the ground. As m00t said to me, you wont be able to shake anybody at full engine power.
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I fly the 109K-4 and the 109G-2 a lot and have tons of trouble getting people off my six. A lot of times I will extend especially with the K-4 but often can't with the G-2. Also manuevaribility is often not the option with the K-4 but is possible with the G-2. One of my biggest problems is shaking Spit 16s and La-7s(which are great planes and this is not a whine that they are too good I just have problems with them). The K-4 is a tight race to out accelerate the 16 and requires equal e state to get away but with the K-4 it is useless. Against the La neither stand a chance. Also as already stated manuevarabilty is useless with both 109s against these planes. So what would you guys reccomend.
If you think that "manuevarabilty is useless" in the K4 I suggest you look up Agent360. He and I have had several engagements. One night, I was in a Spit IX, he was in a K4 and we had an extended stall fight (probably 5 minutes) just outside a furball. The K4 is actually quite manouverable and the G2 even more so. Either one is quite capable against an La-7 or a Spit XVI.
I might suggest this starting point: Instead of extending (running), stay and fight and die until you get it right. Running teaches you nothing about the capabilities of your plane. If you're afraid to die in the MA's, then find someone in a Spit or an La to fight with in the TA.
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I fly the 109K-4 and the 109G-2 a lot and have tons of trouble getting people off my six. A lot of times I will extend especially with the K-4 but often can't with the G-2. Also manuevaribility is often not the option with the K-4 but is possible with the G-2. One of my biggest problems is shaking Spit 16s and La-7s(which are great planes and this is not a whine that they are too good I just have problems with them). The K-4 is a tight race to out accelerate the 16 and requires equal e state to get away but with the K-4 it is useless. Against the La neither stand a chance. Also as already stated manuevarabilty is useless with both 109s against these planes. So what would you guys reccomend.
the 109 is a vertical fighter, try pulling straight up, as you come around watch your airspeed, when it hits about 190, dump your throttle and your flaps, he should fly right by you. then suck the flap in, hit the throttle and go for the snapshot!! good luck with it :aok
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I usually scream "OH GOD" over and over again then berate my squadies when I die for not clearing my six sooner. :)
now that's funny.i have a squaddie that does that..you should hear him.....he goes apechit, thenlogs out.......very funny to listne to it sometimes :rofl :rofl
<<S>>
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If you dont believe you can win a fight you wont.
funny..i go into every fight thinking i'm gonna win......but i lose more than i win :rofl
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funny..i go into every fight thinking i'm gonna win......but i lose more than i win :rofl
hehe me too :D
Invariably I'm suprised every time I lose (I guess I get suprised alot :(). I haven't ever had a single fight I've lost where I havent felt like I had a "better" (since the choice behind door #1 obviously got my oscar waxed :furious) option I either didnt see in time or disgarded. It's amazing how the better you get the more room you see for improvement...
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Tom Cruise said it best, "Gonna hit the breaks and hell fly right by" :D
Maverick...heh.
I've watched that movie 5 times in the past week. I love it near the end when he says
Maverick: "I'm bringing him in closer"
Merlin: "You're gunna do WHAT?"
Maverick: "I'm gunna hit the brakes and he'll fly right by"
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the 109 is a vertical fighter, try pulling straight up, as you come around watch your airspeed, when it hits about 190, dump your throttle and your flaps, he should fly right by you. then suck the flap in, hit the throttle and go for the snapshot!! good luck with it :aok
now i know wat to do against the 109's in AvA :rock :t
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If you can jink and dodge long enough to gain a little speed and altitude you may be able to force an overshoot. It will all depend on how close the guy is to you. If he is fairly close you can cut power drop flaps and break high to one side using lots of rudder to add drag.. This can be a high risk move but if you are in this situation you will most likely die anyhow. The great 109 sticks in this game live on overshoots and stall fighting. The most important part is to try to hide your intentions. Make the enemy think your running and turn the tables.
The best thing about a K-4 and g-2's is that with the mass of power you have you can force an overshoot and you can climb or accelerate back on the opponents 6' pretty quickly.
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I was in a Typhie the other day being followed by an LA.
I waited until he was 600 out, chopped throttle, and stuck my nose right into the sun. The LA-7 was helpless. First off the Typhie flys like a rock when power is cut off and slows quickly. But I didnt let him know it cause I blinded him in the sun. Boom he overshot and I got on his 6 and killed him.
Cutting my teeth on bombers taught me to always know where the sun is. Im surprised I dont see this move made by more typhie drivers cause its the perfect plane to force overshoots with against LA-7s. It drops like a stone while the LaLa glides forever.
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Also as already stated manuevarabilty is useless with both 109s against these planes. So what would you guys reccomend.
1.Above all, do not panic ;)
To simplify: It is all a matter of speed. A 109K going 180mph is a pig compared to a Spit16 at 180mph. A 109K going 300mph IAS is just as maneuverable as a Spit16 with 300mph IAS-they are both well above corner speed. A 109K with 300mph IAS is MORE maneuverable than a Spit16 diving on him at 400mph and should be able to make him overshoot with a quick, gutsy evasive, at which point you are off the hook and may get a snapshot in-if you happen to be a Gunnery God. If he sees whats happening and pulls up to avoid, that should still allow you enough breathing room to extend.
See rule#1 again.
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I usually scream "OH GOD" over and over again then berate my squadies when I die for not clearing my six sooner. :)
Hee hee ^^^ soul hunter can make most guys snap their controller while soul flys a crop duster circles round them :aok
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Howdy Fellas,
I looked through my film collection and couldn't easily find any good K4 reversal examples.
But I am going to make some tonight. I will try to get 3 or 4 good examples of what to do when you have a can close on your six.
From the original post I can tell one thing right off. You are flying the plane WAAYYYYY to fast. If your tactic is to BZ a furball then this is fine.
But if you intend on knife fighting like a junk yard dog you have to get your speed and throttle under control.
I will suggest two drills to practice in the meantime.
Drill 1. Find a furball with a lot of cons. Enter the fight at 5k. Going higher will defeat the purpose of this drill. Now flying at 5k enter within 5k of the contatcs at a speed of around 350 or 400 angling off a bit to keep from flying directly into the grinder. At this point and this is the main part of the drill.....cut your throttle to about 60% (1.0 ata on the throttle gage). YOU WILL NOW FLY WITHOUT TOUCHING YOUR THROTTLE AT ALL...NOT ONCE....DO NOT TOUCH THE THROTTLE NO MATTER HOW BAD YOU WANT TO. Fly your plane using verticle and dives to maintian your speed as you need too. Use flaps and rudder to control turns. RUDDER: Too much is baaaddd, just enough is GOLDEN ( quote from PaddyD)
What does this teach you? It will teach how much maneuvering ability you actually have and how much power you actually have at only 50% throttle in a K4. It will also show you how much faster everyone else is going compared to you. You will be astounded at what happens when they start overshooting and doing all kinds of crazy stuff to shoot you while just fly around like your on a sunday walk.
You can fly your plane like this with ease and still do EVERYTHING you could do jacking the throttle all around and flying with wep. In fact the point is to show you how much you really can do by simply paying attention to maneuvering instead of relying on the throttle to run and extend or out climb.
YOU WILL GET KILLED. The point of this drill is not win. The point is to show you what the plane can do and to force you to use other tactics to compensate.
Drill 2:
FACT: The 109k4 is capable of flying exactly verticle ( 90 deg from the ground....strait up like a rocket) until your airspeed reaches almost 20 mph without falling over. This is a FACT.
It best to try this without any cons around. To start this fly across a field at 400 mph at about 500 feet or less at complete level to the ground. Pull the plane into a completly strait 90 deg verticle climb. You must be completly verticle. Look out to your left to make sure you are completely verticle ( doing this takes practice in its self) and hold your plane in this climb. In the DA the time is always "High Noon" so the sun is always directly over head. Doing this in the DA you can use the sun as a ref. If you point your nose dirctly at the sun you will be completly verticle. Hold this climb with wep on until airspeed falls below 100. Now to the hard part. At under 100 mph in a complete vert state is becomes increasingly harder to hold the plane at this angle. Continue to hold it. Use a touch or RIGHT rudder and a touch of PUSH on the stick to keep the plane from rolling right. Then a touch of right roll. JUST A LITTLE. Your goal is to hold the plane in the vert until your airspeed drops to BELOW 50 mph. Once you get good at this you can do it all the way to almost 0 airspeed. BUT DONT DO THAT OR YOUR TAIL SLIDE AND LOOSE CONTROL FOR ABOUT 2K WHICH IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT TO DO. So at 50 mph you push the stick forward pop flaps and pull the throttle off a little and just roll the nose around TO THE LEFT and over into a complete verticle dive. You will now use the throttle to control the plane keelping is nose down. Fly completly vert strait at the ground to 500 ft. You will have to cut throttle to zero and use oppisite rudder to reduce airspeed to prevent going too fast. Pull out to level and repeat. Do this over and over.
I have described the drill. The point is to learn to hold the plane in a completly verticle state all the way to 50 mph. You DO NOT WANT THE NOSE TO MOVE ONE BIT FROM VERT UNTIL YOU CHOOSE TO DO SO AND THAT IS AT 50 MPH.
It takes a lot of practice to hold the plane like this at under 100 mph and even more at 50 and to roll over without stall spinning and that is what this drill will teach you.
The fact is there is no plane in this game that can follow you in this move at co E. IF they have extra zoom then they might catch you. But chances are they wont be able to control their plane at under 100 mph. IT is this last 50 mph that gets you the perfect rope. They will just start to wobble and spin out while you are completly in control....falling over in a nice controlled nose down path..and boom there dead.
So if you can learn to fly at half throttle and still make kills and to learn how to hold your nose completly verticle at 50 mph and roll over in control you can kill a lot of peopel by simply learning these two things.
Agent360
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I disagree with most of these suggestions. Watch the television show "DogFight" and read about the famous ACES. They all have alot to say about surviving in combat. You'll be suprised to learn that most of them frowned on fancy "acrobatic" flying. Richtoffen called it the quickest way to end up "DEAD". If you have to rely on a Split-S, an Immelmann or a Loop to save your bacon.. you've already made some poor tactical choices.
Running away from an enemy plane that has the advantage is the advice i hear most commonly from "REAL" ACES, who have risked their lives flying against REAL enemy planes. Of couse this is just a GAME and nobody really DIES... So give the fancy acrobatics a whirl. And don't forget to film the 5 minutes you spend flying around an enemy plane without shooting him down. Hollywood is always looking for that kind of footage.
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I was in a Typhie the other day being followed by an LA.
I waited until he was 600 out, chopped throttle, and stuck my nose right into the sun. The LA-7 was helpless. First off the Typhie flys like a rock when power is cut off and slows quickly. But I didnt let him know it cause I blinded him in the sun. Boom he overshot and I got on his 6 and killed him.
Cutting my teeth on bombers taught me to always know where the sun is. Im surprised I dont see this move made by more typhie drivers cause its the perfect plane to force overshoots with against LA-7s. It drops like a stone while the LaLa glides forever.
i've had a few fghters try that. when someone pulls into the sun, i put my nose juuuuust above it, and follow and wait. within a couple seconds he almost ALWAYS slips out of it juuust enough for me to see him. i line him up, and pop off a quick burst. if anythiing hits him, he generally does something that takes him fully out of the sun, then i have him. or more commonly, he changes his tactics, and kills me!! :rofl
<<S>>
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I disagree with most of these suggestions. Watch the television show "DogFight" and read about the famous ACES. They all have alot to say about surviving in combat. You'll be suprised to learn that most of them frowned on fancy "acrobatic" flying. Richtoffen called it the quickest way to end up "DEAD". If you have to rely on a Split-S, an Immelmann or a Loop to save your bacon.. you've already made some poor tactical choices.
Running away from an enemy plane that has the advantage is the advice i hear most commonly from "REAL" ACES, who have risked their lives flying against REAL enemy planes. Of couse this is just a GAME and nobody really DIES... So give the fancy acrobatics a whirl. And don't forget to film the 5 minutes you spend flying around an enemy plane without shooting him down. Hollywood is always looking for that kind of footage.
yes, but THEY were flying the real thing. WE are only flying cartoon airplanes :D
we can continue our fancy acrobatic flying in our cartoon airplanes and have fun very safely :D
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i've had a few fghters try that. when someone pulls into the sun, i put my nose juuuuust above it, and follow and wait. within a couple seconds he almost ALWAYS slips out of it juuust enough for me to see him. i line him up, and pop off a quick burst. if anythiing hits him, he generally does something that takes him fully out of the sun, then i have him. or more commonly, he changes his tactics, and kills me!! :rofl
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Thing about the Typhie tho is its not only very fast but it sheds speed like a stone when you chop throttle and slip-slide your rudders. If you in an airplane fast enough to catch it in the first place the odds are it wont slow down as well and if you hesitate or make a mistake by gunning throttle to long and hard you might end up with 4 Hispanos about 100 behind you. :uhoh
Ive seen some Typhie guys pull beautiful slip & slide overshoots on me while Im in an LA. Thats why I like to get a Typhie slowed before I make the final kill on him. I slowed one down once while in a Seafire that was out of ammo and just stayed on his tail for many long minutes before he finally built up enough speed to get away. Maybe he thought I was a nice guy but in reality I had no bullets left to kill him.
But the Typhie is a great plane to force overshoots with. When many guys are closing on one the last thing they think about is throttle control.
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I disagree with most of these suggestions. Watch the television show "DogFight" and read about the famous ACES. They all have alot to say about surviving in combat. You'll be suprised to learn that most of them frowned on fancy "acrobatic" flying. Richtoffen called it the quickest way to end up "DEAD". If you have to rely on a Split-S, an Immelmann or a Loop to save your bacon.. you've already made some poor tactical choices.
Running away from an enemy plane that has the advantage is the advice i hear most commonly from "REAL" ACES, who have risked their lives flying against REAL enemy planes. Of couse this is just a GAME and nobody really DIES... So give the fancy acrobatics a whirl. And don't forget to film the 5 minutes you spend flying around an enemy plane without shooting him down. Hollywood is always looking for that kind of footage.
I think you probably prefer high alt BZ picking type of flying. If you want to fly more like reality then always be at 20k, always fly with a bunch of buddies and never engage unless you have absolute advantage. If you make a mistake run like hell until your enemy runs out of gas, gets bored or gets picked by your buddies.
There are many real ace stories of them performing advanced ACM and winning. Usually because they were jumped by a con they did not know was there. Eric Hartman states nearly all his kills were on enemys who never new he was there.
In this GAME we all have the same eyesight (radar and icons). Our virtual pilots all have exactly the same fitness (same reaction to G). Some things just cant be modeled and some things are just not worth it or don't make the game any better only harder to run on most computers.
Most players start out with your style and theory. But this usually only last a certain amount of time. Although some never do grow out of this phase.
Once you become more familiar with all the planes and gain a certain amount of ACM skill you will become more interested in the finer points of "dog fighting". When this finally happens the suggestions in this thread will become very handy.
As for me I grew out the what I call "alt monkey" phase years ago. I regularly fly low, alone and at a complete disadvantage in a plane that is easily out turned (109k4). Why??? because it is alot more fun to out think and out fly someone like you flying a BZ pane with every advantage possible and still killing you.
Check out my Training Films thread. You will see what I mean.
I am not flaming or even disagreeing with your style. It's totally up to you how you want to fly. None of my business. But this thread is about what to do if someone is on your six. You will NEVER learn what to do to save yourself if you don't take these ideas seriously. You will also never learn what to do if you never fly at a disadvantage "on purpose".
Think of this thread in this way. After you get caught by a higher con or get jumped RTB by yourself what you gonna do. Just fly strait? Scream like a girl on the radio? or are you gonna pull your knife out and fight?
Agent360
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Well put Agent360. <S>
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After you get caught by a higher con or get jumped RTB by yourself what you gonna do. Just fly strait? Scream like a girl on the radio? or are you gonna pull your knife out and fight?
My money's on fly straight AND scream like a girl.