Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Noir on April 22, 2008, 04:17:11 AM
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Quick question to our experienced trainers...after basic training what kind of exercise would you do to your trainees so they realise their E state (dive, extend, climb back, etc), and just stop pointing their nose towards nearest Icon and HO ?
On another topic I think the bomb aiming crosshair should be disabled on TA, people I've trained tend to rely on it and make impossible drops instead of working on their approach speed and angle.
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Noir I'd suggest you get in touch with Badboy and spent some time with him. He helped me a lot with E fighting.
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Call me Nuke :D
I don't need training on this (I wish), I need tips on how to train other people....but your answer still applies, thx
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i did not really understand or was not able to apply these concepts till just recently.
infact i don't know exactly when i had my ephiphany, and went "oh yea thats what it means".
i belive that understanding e fighting is a personal quest.
i have read and reread "in pursit". http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/inpursuit.pdf
spent time with trainers.
spent time with squadies.
read a whole lot and posted a whole lot on these boards.
but i feel pretty good about my skill now, i also belive that strong acm skills will keep you alive until you can better judge an enemy's e state relative to yours.
learning when to pull hard and go angles and let up and keep your e is not an easy thing, but i would make suggestions (duel with someone) give them your opinions let them make their acm choices.
i think that correct acm choices lead to e-saving manuvers or either you quickly get on someones six and kill them.
expereince is its own teacher IMHO.
but i think combined with assigned reading, answering any questions you can and deuling with someone you can help them to get a good footing on a hard slope.
for what its worth....
.02
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Murdr has a pretty good write-up -
wwwnetaces.org > Learning to Fly > Advanced Flight Skills > Energy Management
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get them to perfect flying up into a stall maintaining control. Quite a few newer players who are trying to push too hard end up in a spin anyway.
get them fighting upwards in a rope a dope situation. Not only will their appreciation of how much energy they have get better they will feel more comfortable flying at slow speeds.
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Whenever i see one of my guys following someone up im forever saying
"don't let him rope you"
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the write up is pretty good, but I've thougt about it and I think the problem mostly lies in the fact that new players have trouble "feeling" where they are in the 3D environment, and I guess that can only be fixed with a lot of practice.
Maybe having the 3D environment filled with a XYZ grid like in some space games (ever played homeworld?) would give the trainee a better feeling of his speed, altitude etc. Its like when you are deep into the sea, you don't know at what Depth you really are, and what direction you are going towards.
Counterpart would be that trainees won't need to look at their instruments, and wont learn how to use them....
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Whenever i see one of my guys following someone up im forever saying
"don't let him rope you"
Lol I say that all the time on range...."don't HO him, don't follow the rope !"
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Quite a few newer players who are trying to push too hard end up in a spin anyway.
I'm an old player and find myself doing that now while trying to get used to a new joystick. I think I still don't have the scaleing right for this one but I pretty much knew I'd have an off month while I adjusted.
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Nuke, I integrate E discussion along the way at every opportunity, no matter what the topic is. Even merge training, or basic maneuvers training, I will often give a running dialog of E observations. For instance the tightness of a turn, or the type of turn I see from one merge to the next, gives clues on how much energy the other guy is burning in relation to yours. I'll mention things like that as I see it, and then prove the point by being able to make more verticle turns than the trainiee. I really try to stress that E=maneuver options. If you can bank just a tiny bit more E than the other guy over a series of 2 or 3 merges, you can take control of the fight because those tiny E saving measures, can add up to you have more options than the other guy as the fight speed slows down.
It is really so integrated it just about any fighter tactic lesson I give, that I don't even think about it, or have a 'script'. Implications involving E are fairly common in any aspect of air combat in aces high, and I just point them out as I see them.
Just the opposite of what was said, I have to do some arm twisting at times to convince a newer player that we were co-E at that third merge, and they were just a capable as I to pull another verticle turn...then I explain the techniques for doing it without pushing it over the edge.
Also, most of the time right off the bat, I will show the disadvantages of going for that shot on the initial merge. It doesnt take long to prove that point.
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Nuke, I integrate E discussion along the way at every opportunity, no matter what the topic is. Even merge training, or basic maneuvers training, I will often give a running dialog of E observations. For instance the tightness of a turn, or the type of turn I see from one merge to the next, gives clues on how much energy the other guy is burning in relation to yours. I'll mention things like that as I see it, and then prove the point by being able to make more verticle turns than the trainiee. I really try to stress that E=maneuver options. If you can bank just a tiny bit more E than the other guy over a series of 2 or 3 merges, you can take control of the fight because those tiny E saving measures, can add up to you have more options than the other guy as the fight speed slows down.
It is really so integrated it just about any fighter tactic lesson I give, that I don't even think about it, or have a 'script'. Implications involving E are fairly common in any aspect of air combat in aces high, and I just point them out as I see them.
Just the opposite of what was said, I have to do some arm twisting at times to convince a newer player that we were co-E at that third merge, and they were just a capable as I to pull another verticle turn...then I explain the techniques for doing it without pushing it over the edge.
Also, most of the time right off the bat, I will show the disadvantages of going for that shot on the initial merge. It doesnt take long to prove that point.
A lesson I relearned recently when dueling Skyrock. Being overly aggressive without regard to the opponents E state will leave one at a decided disadvantage at each merge. I am so used to cranking in flaps and going for a leadshot, and SR saw that and kept his plane clean, avoided shots and set up the perch...
Balsy
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A lesson I relearned recently when dueling Skyrock. Being overly aggressive without regard to the opponents E state will leave one at a decided disadvantage at each merge. I am so used to cranking in flaps and going for a leadshot, and SR saw that and kept his plane clean, avoided shots and set up the perch...
Agree with this all the way. Beating someone cold on the merge means nothing if you don't convert the lead shot it generates into a kill on that pass. Plus it leaves you at the mercy of the other pilot. Successfully going angles on an E fighter at the merge essentially means converting just enough E for position such that the other guys E advantage doesn't leave you bled before you've had sufficient opportunities to kill him. If you don't get the kill by then, get ready to bust out the reversals and hope for some luck.
Reading your position (ahead/behind/faster/slower) after the merge is critical to understanding how much E you need to trade in relation to the other plane. If he's making a very lazy merge and you sell-out everything to get around first you're going to have position but little opportunity to take it as he climbs above.
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A lesson I relearned recently when dueling Skyrock. Being overly aggressive without regard to the opponents E state will leave one at a decided disadvantage at each merge. I am so used to cranking in flaps and going for a leadshot, and SR saw that and kept his plane clean, avoided shots and set up the perch...
Balsy
Cool, last time he and I went at it, he commented about me being on the E side of that equation.
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<snip>
On another topic I think the bomb aiming crosshair should be disabled on TA, people I've trained tend to rely on it and make impossible drops instead of working on their approach speed and angle.
Being the Training Arena I think the green + training site should be there. It gets yoiu familiar with the sight picture needed to hit the target.
Where I go to actually do it without the training site is offline after turning off 'protectobjects' so I can bopmb friendly structures without worrying about field guns shooting me. Once my technique is down I then try at enemy fields with active field guns.
IMO its a two part process. First part in TA with training site, then either offline as I stated above or OTJ training in a main arena.
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A lesson I relearned recently when dueling Skyrock. Being overly aggressive without regard to the opponents E state will leave one at a decided disadvantage at each merge. I am so used to cranking in flaps and going for a leadshot, and SR saw that and kept his plane clean, avoided shots and set up the perch...
Balsy
It's good to have that in your locker but i've always seen it as a weak/smart/timid way of fighting. If your co-e at the merge fair play. If you have an alt advantage already i find it even more disturbing. Now Balsy when can we have a duel I wasn't getting much luck in KOTH.
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If you have an alt advantage already i find it even more disturbing.
I often have an alt advantage because I almost always start one base back. In the end it means nothing because I'm almost always throttle off diving in to equalize e-states so I can saddle up or pull a lead shot. There's almost nothing I hate more than coming in with too much E and having to waste time burning it off.
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It's good to have that in your locker but i've always seen it as a weak/smart/timid way of fighting. If your co-e at the merge fair play. If you have an alt advantage already i find it even more disturbing. Now Balsy when can we have a duel I wasn't getting much luck in KOTH.
Anytime Bruv... catch me when I'm online. Just dont make me fly one of those SPITS ;).
Balsy
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It's good to have that in your locker but i've always seen it as a weak/smart/timid way of fighting.
Utter nonsense. If both start out co-e, and one chooses to conserve while the other choose to burn alot early, that is perfectly fair.
I love seeing weak/timid/smart being used as synonyms. Shows me what kind of mindset we've ended up with in this game culture.
I guess if a boxer paces himself in the early rounds and lets his opponent gas before taking it to him, that fighter is weak and timid.
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Forgot to mention, the fighter in a classic co-e same plane duel who makes his reverses more gently to conserve E is not playing it safe, he is actually making a gamble...his opponent who is cranking hard to gain angles WILL have the opportunity for a shot or two on the first few reverses, although the E-conserving flyer will be trying to make them as low percentage opportunities as possible. It is AFTER the opponent's attempt at a fleeting firing opportunity that the guy who conserved E at the beginning of the duel typically finds that he has won an enviable position. This strategy is about as "timid" as Andrew Jackon's approach to his pistol duel with Charles Dickinson.
The fact is that the opposition has every opportunity to see that the other guy is conserving his E on his reverse and react in kind. In a co-e same-craft duel, if you were simply to try a gentle zoom and rope or spiral climb on the first merge, a savvy enough opponent would see it, go low g's himself, follow you up, and shoot you/lock onto your six every time.
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with a name like Bnz you probably don't understand what i'm saying.
i'll quote myself "If your co-e at the merge fair play"
what i mean by this is if you have gained your advantage by being less aggressive from an equal footing thats good flying.
I'd rather be able to fight/reverse/overshoot than fly smart and clean. I like the fights where your arm hurts afterwards. I feel bad for my opponent if I always opt for the BnZ approach, personally I don't find it fun even if I win the fight.
Your right on many points though. When 2 equally good guys go at it, it can go either way depending on what move they gamble on.
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Bruv119,
your 2nd reply/explanation was a bit better.........you did lose me on the 1st reply with the:
It's good to have that in your locker but i've always seen it as a weak/smart/timid way of fighting. If your co-e at the merge fair play. If you have an alt advantage already i find it even more disturbing.
When I am fighting a person 1 vs 1, mainly when /if I am dueling someone.I'll watch their moves, especially that 1st initial cold guns 1st merge....I am watching how hard they are reversing/break turning to bring guns to bear on me......with this I only apply just enough control input to meet him/her on an equal footing ( equal turn to come back nose to nose ).if I think I have them a bit off angle from head on ( well actually I try to employee this angle in my 1st reversing turn/merge ).I will try and instigate the next turn 1st.......or at least stay with them equally but not try and force my E to turn tighter/quicker.....
most players go for broke on the 1st and/or 2nd merge/revrsal and burn up all their E.....I try to be smooth and conserve even the little tidbit more E. so when we become stalemate during that 2nd or 3rd merge/reverse I have the upper hand and can then dictate the fight........making the opponent have to start playing catch up and react to my moves.....is like chess per say..match them move for move, but no more..holding back that lil something something.until you know you can send them back to the tower.....
anyhows........I do not find that type of flying boring, timid, or weak...I do find it flying smart and flying the right way......to add though.. I am not saying to not take a shot if it presents itself.....
but most good to better sticks will not fire on you from a near to Head On front quarter shot or nose to nose ( say 15 degrees off nose or closer ).... you got to know the character of your opponent .......learn his ways, his flying style, his habits...practice.....and never stop practicing..........
BFM, ACM, and everything else is not all about yank hard and fire 1st.........
hope this helps
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BnZ...what can I say? Its short and easy to understand on the radio, has a nicer ring to it than "energy fighter". Although a certain number of people seem to think the pronunciation is "buns" :D
Its all good Bruv, we were talking past each other. I was talking about a fight where both parties have the same E but one comes out on top through better management, I guess you were talking about one where one guy "cheats" and comes in with more E than the other...not something I see Skyrock doing :salute
I try to avoid using the gentlemans convention of not taking HO shots to my advantage, if that makes any sense. That is, I try to fly any direction other than directly towards him on the remerge whenever possible. If this fight were without conventions, say in the MA, I feel like offering a 10% chance of a deadly front-quarter snapshot to the opponent is better than offering him the 50% M.A.D. opportunity by flying too directly towards him. This seems to naturally lead to E-conservation moves on the first few merges, without really trying.