Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DoNKeY on April 22, 2008, 11:30:54 PM
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Hello everyone.
For the past while, I have been throwing around the idea of joining the Air Force ROTC program when I go off to college. I'm still reading up on it, gaining as much information about it that I can.
My question is if anyone here has gone through, or is currently apart of the A.F. ROTC program? I know my greatest source of information will be their main website, or perhaps someone at a recruitment office, but I was wondering if anyone who does have experience with it has anything that they would like to share, or feel that I should know.
I know that this will be a HUGE commitment, probably one of the most important decisions I will make in my life, and potentially alter my life a lot if I do go through it, which is why I am seriously debating this decision and throwing it around, but I don't want to rule something like this out, as my love for flying and everything associated with it has been a very big part of my life, and joining the military, even though the chances of becoming a pilot aren't great, is something that interests me.
So, if anyone has experience in this, and has something that they would like to share, I'd appreciate it a lot.
donkey
:salute
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1% of the cadet become pilot. I saw this stats some where but I couldn't remember. Depends on how bad you wants to fly or how good you are in school. Army is good place for chopper pilots. Navy and AF are good for fix wings. Send me a msg in the game and I'll give you a brief on it if you like.
Yenny.
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If you want to fly, forget a BS ROTC program, go Marine Officer Candidate School. They will *guarantee* you an air contract prior to you making any commitment.
Best deal for an O aspiring to fly the unfriendly skies in any US service. If you pass all the tests, are accepted into the program and make it through training, your problem becomes "I hope I get jets" instead of "I hope they don't stick me in a tank."
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Duplicate.
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A life-long friend of mine did AF ROTC at UC Berkeley and made a pilot slot. Now he flys a block 50 F-16C. No kidding. :O Even if you make it to pilot training, a lot of cadets washout and end up flying cargo planes or something even less glorious.
He's a busy man, but if you send me a pm I'll see if he can answer some of your questions.
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Here's my take:
I've done a few different routes to the cockpit- Navy ROTC, Marine OCS, and Navy OCS.
I started in Navy ROTC, with a 3-year guarantee. Get a 3.0 first year out of pocket, the next 3 years are on the Navy. When I was in my second semester I met with my class advisor to go over my grades and stuff. He asked, "What do you want to do in the Navy?" I answered, "Fly jets." He said, "Well, with these grades you're going to be driving ships." Basically, in Navy ROTC (and I imagine AF ROTC isn't too much different) your grades determine your rank. Higher your grades, higher your ranking. When it comes time to pick 'jobs' the start with the #1 guy and give him his choice. Then the #2 guy and give him his choice. And so on. When they get to you, you pick what you want and if there's still slots available, you get it. Otherwise, you get something else. I wonder what slots go first in the Air Force?
So, if you want to drive planes, and go the ROTC route, you HAVE to do well in school in order to be competitive for a job you want. If you are a C student, I guess you better plan on doing something in the USAF besides flying.
For me, I got a 2.98 GPA and had the option of paying to stay in ROTC or drop out. I dropped out.
Fast forward a year. I went to the Marine recruiter, took all the tests, got an air slot (1 of 2). All set with an OCS report date. 2 months before Quantico I get the call..."Yeah, uh (Toonces), one of our air slots got pulled so I have to put you on a ground contract. But, hey, don't worry about it. When you get to Basic School you can compete to get an air slot instead...." Turns out that's about a 1 in 100 chance. So I did my first 6 weeks of OCS, and when it came time to go back for the second part I declined. I had no desire to drive tanks.
Fast forward another year. Senior in college, still want to fly jets. Call the Navy recruiter. "Hey, I want to fly jets." He says, "Well, we need jet pilots, come on down." Took the tests, got accepted into the Navy as a pilot and after graduation reported to Pensacola and proceeded to get my wings.
So, here's the bottom line. ROTC is a great program that will pay for your college and offer you a guaranteed job making decent money, and you will learn a skill that will be useful somewhere for something. You also can get the GI Bill in the military which might not seem like a big deal now, but a few years from now when you're looking at getting a masters, the GI Bill is great to have. I used it to get a masters degree. The downside of ROTC is that it is sort of mickey mouse business, and it sort of drags out the whole military indoctrination process for 4 years. It's a bit of a pain, alot of silly things you have to do.
If you're goal is, like mine, to fly or else, then I don't think ROTC is necessarily the way to go. Sure ROTC gets you in the front door, but you have to really kick bum in school in order to be competitive for a pilot slot. I was a horrible student, so leaving ROTC was definately the right call for me.
OCS, Navy or some other branch, is a safer option if you're goal is only to fly. The downsides are that you won't know if the military is hiring pilots until you've missed your chance for ROTC. Also, you'll have to pay for college. Also, you'll still have to do well enough in school to have a competitive application for OCS. Of course, you can go to OCS for something besides pilot, but then you've sort of wasted the chance to go ROTC in the first place.
Either way, there are no guarantees. You are doing the right thing by considering your options carefully. It all really depends on what your goals are in the military and in life. I think the military is a great deal. I've been very lucky and I have no regrets. I'm facing about 2 of the next 3 years away from my family starting next year, so it's not all happy times, but overall I think the military has alot to offer, besides just getting to fly cool planes.
Good luck!
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Also on another note. Depend on whether you want to be fix wing or rotary. You have a much higher chance to fly helicopters for the army. Your grade will be the #1 determination in your ranking in the OML in nation. There are a few other factors involved but mainly your grade will play the most important role. I went with Army ROTC and this was what I did.
I went to a community college for two years then transfered to a 4 years. The reason I went to a two years is when you transfer into a 4 years ALL your GPA from the two years reset back to a 4.0, so you start your junior years in the university with a 4.0 . That's a HUGE advantage over other cadets that straight into the 4 years because if their grade took a pounding due to too much drinking in the 1st two years they can still reset it. Once I transfered I choose an easy major (Law enforcement) to keep my GPA in the upper 3.7. For the army the "branch or job within the army" selection took place at the end of your junior years. With a 3.7 gpa I was within the top 20% cadet in the nation. When you're in the top 20% bracket you guarantee your branch of choice, so whatever you want in the army you get it.
Now if you're not within that top 20% you have another choice. I forgot what it's called, but basically you give in 2 more extra years in service for your branch of choice. With that your active duty time went from 5 to 7. Usually top 30% of army cadet will get their aviation slot. In the army the #1 choice is infantry, #2 is armor, #3 is aviation. The chance of flying chopper in the army is much higher then other branches.
The financial side of this is pretty easy. You can get a tuition, books paid for. You can get a 2 years scholarship if you're a transfer, or a 4 years if you decide to jump straight into a university. I'm a newly commissioned Lt. so all these stuff I still remember pretty well. Send me private message if you likes to know more other details etc.
Yenny
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I really can't tell you anything about the military or ROTC as I never served but my nieces husband just retired last week from the Air Force as a Colonel at about 40 years old. Not a bad deal. They did move an awful lot and he got back from an extended tour in Iraq a year or so ago during which time the family was apart (they have 2 young children) but all in all I think they thought the military was just fine.
They are "retiring" near an AFB where he thinks he can work either part or full time.
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I'm currently finishing my junior year in Army ROTC and can confirm what Yenny wrote above, with some minor corrections. Right now, it is the top 10% on the national OML who get their first choice. The OML takes into account more than just your GPA, however. GPA is 40% of the total score. Another 40% comes from your evaluation at LDAC, a month long evaluation camp that you attend in the summer before your senior year. The other 10%, I believe, comes from your school commander's evaluation of you.
The other choice Yenny referred to is called the ADSO (Active Duty Service Obligation), which is actually a 3 year commitment that you can sign to guarantee your branch choice, location of first assignment, or fully paid graduate school. If you want aviation, though, you have to sign another ADSO once you get into flight school that adds another 6 years of active duty (they're spending a few million bucks to train you and they want to keep you). So, if you ADSO for branch and then get aviation you have a minimum 13 year obligation. There are also a few back doors into aviation, so it's almost guaranteed that you'd eventually get into the cockpit.
Army ROTC is definitely the best deal going right now. The Army wants people, so to get a full scholarship you basically need to do no more than pass the PT test and keep your GPA above 2.5 (obviously, though, to get what you really want you need to do much better than that). Many schools will also kick in money for room and board. Plus you get the chance to attend schools like Airborne, Air Assault, Mountain Warfare, and Sapper school.
From my observation it seems pretty difficult to get a scholarship from the Air Force or Navy ROTC, and even harder to get a pilot slot, but if you have the grades and are set on flying jets, then obviously either of those would be a better choice than the Army.
But remember, there's nobody cooler than an Army Aviator.:aok
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Well if you really want to be an Air Force pilot or navigator as opposed to a Marine, Navy, Army, or Coast Guard pilot, then you have a much better chance of getting a slot through AFROTC as opposed to OTS or similar commissioning programs. Though of course it is not guaranteed and you won’t know what job you’ll get until you’ve already committed to serving at least four years in the Air Force after graduation. But you can take your chances and if you don’t get a slot then after your 4 or so years you can possibly migrate over to another branch and see if they’ll let you fly.
Grades are a very important determining factor for whether you’ll get your first choice job via AFROTC. But the other things that are considered are your AFOQT score, how your commander ranks you in comparison to your peers (i.e. top cadet, 2nd, 3rd, etc), and your physical fitness test score. There are other criteria they look at as well but these are probably the most important.
A ROTC detachment officer can tell you what’s involved in the selection process better than I can so when you go on your next college visit call ahead and set up an appointment to meet with one of the detachment officers; that’s what I did and they told me a lot of valuable information that can’t be found by just browsing the internet.
However if you’re dead set on flying anything for any branch then both the Marines and the Coast Guard can guaranteed you a flight slot. In the Marine Corps you can get it through the PLC program and the Coast Guard has something called the Blue 21 Flight Initiative Program.
Hope this helps
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GPA is 40% of the total score. Another 40% comes from your evaluation at LDAC, a month long evaluation camp that you attend in the summer before your senior year. The other 10%, I believe, comes from your school commander's evaluation of you.
Great information all of you, my son, LilDragn is currently enrolled in high school Navy ROTC program and is set of flying a jet. I don't think he was aware of how important grades are. :rock
The total from above is 90%. Maybe 50% for grades? Just wondering.
:salute
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What about being a National Guard pilot? How does that work?
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The total from above is 90%. Maybe 50% for grades? Just wondering.
:salute
Doh! Now you know why I'm in the Army. :o I meant 20% for that last one. It's actually a composite of everything you do in ROTC at school. Over the 4 years (or 2 if you're a transfer student) you get many evaluations, PT test scores, ROTC classes, etc. All of these are factored into an OML made by the battalion commander that ranks each cadet. This, I think, then makes up 20% of the national OML.
Extra points are also added for some things like community service, Army schools (Airborne, etc.), and college & ROTC related extracurriculars. When considering that 0.1% can separate a hundred or more people, these extra points can be huge.
Of course, the Army being the Army, the only thing that's really guaranteed is that nothing is really guaranteed. I've heard of people who just missed the top 10% getting their 13th branch choice, and people down in the 75% region getting their first choice. It's really up to the "needs of the Army".
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btw dougal GL w/ LDAC lol, that camp sux =p. You might see me on some committee down there.
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Well, there's no Air Force ROTC program offered at my school, and there aren't any 'cross town' programs either, or whatever they call them. The only one offered is the Army ROTC, which I'm really not sure about, so right now it's not looking good 8(.
donkey
PS: Thanks for all of your help guys.
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There are many paths to the cockpit, like I said above.
If you want to fly, call the Marines and ask about the PLC program, and tell them you want an air contract. See what they have to say.
If you go PLC on an air contract, you're guaranteed an aviation slot provided you get through OCS- which is not a sure thing. I found Marine OCS pretty challenging, and they weeded out ALOT of dudes.
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Alright thanks toonces, I'll look into that and think more about it. Thanks. :aok
donkey
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If you go PLC on an air contract, you're guaranteed an aviation slot provided you get through OCS- which is not a sure thing. I found Marine OCS pretty challenging, and they weeded out ALOT of dudes.
Attrition rate in my class was in excess of 50%. Had 2 prior's in my platoon who were FR guys and they basically told us that if you can get through OCS, you can do FR. They seemed very impressed with the training regiment (even though its designed more for leadership evaluation rather than hands-on field work ala TBS) and ALL of the prior Marines in my platoon (maybe 10-12?) freely admitted that the officer training was far, far more difficult, both mentally and physically, than anything they experienced at PI or SDRD, which I found surprising at the time considering all I ever heard from friends who were enlisted was that officers had the easy life.
Bottom line, as toonces stated, is that the program at Quantico is extraordinarily challenging, complete with honorary Royal Marine instructors right off the ship from the UK. The History channel did a documentary on OCS a while back that I caught and one of the guys (then an O-3) summed it up perfectly. It was something to the effect of "For the first time in my life, I felt as though I was in a situation where effort didnt matter. I could give 110% and it still would not be enough."
OCS is designed to push you to every limit you have and past the breaking point. The guy they interviewed wasnt a sh*t bird - had just gotten back from Iraq - and seemed more scared of OCS than he was of his next tour with the fleet. Just remember that all they want to see is how well you handle the eventual emotional breakdown.
If you go Marines, and can do the 6/6 system instead of the straight 10 weeks, I'd recommend that. My body began to break down significantly at about the 6 week mark and that time off that the PLC guys get would have been a God-send.
Beware the Quigley. (PS: "Tap, rack, bang" wont work once that sh*t gets in your action) :D
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Civil Air Patrol might be worth looking at if you are under 18 and are not sure about making a multi-year commitment to military service at the moment. From what I read at their website, they also offer scholarships.
If you have the ability to finish college or university on your own dime you don't necessarily have to have gone through ROTC. My brother in law had just finished his Masters in biology and decided for a career change. He flew F-15s for 20 years without ROTC, or any prior military experience. His son, a freshman at a university, just signed for full tuition/commitment in AFROTC.
I enlisted after a couple of years at the university without any ROTC and was offered a program called Enlisted Commissioning Program (which may not be offered anymore), and took aptitude tests for flight training (7-9 on the AQT-FAR). My application was lost in file 13 and I gave up, but I met an officer who had gone through the ECP program in the USMC and gotten his wings.
Best regards
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Tap, rack, bang?
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Saurdaukar,
Yep, that sounds about how my experience went. I saw Full Metal Jacket a few times well after I did PLC, and I couldn't help thinking that it was ALOT more like OCS than Officer and a Gentleman. They attrited at least 50% of the guys I showed up with. I'm only 5'4, I had to get a waiver to go Marines because the height requirement is 5'6 and let me tell you, I missed those 2 inches everyday! The first obstacle on the O-Course is a chin up type bar that you have to kip over and I could barely, barely reach it with my fingertips if I got a good jump. I got my bellybutton kicked there. But, I felt pretty good afterwards. I think the point is that just getting there is no guarantee to make it through. It was pretty obvious that if the DI's didn't think you were up to being an officer, someone they might have to follow into a firefight someday, they would ensure you didn't make it.
Navy OCS, on the other hand, was sort of a joke in comparison. After PLC, I showed up in Pensacola as a PT god, and it was a bit shocking how easy the PT was there. Unlike the Marines where the goal was to weed folks out, the Navy did everything they could to keep you in. You could DOR and they'd give you a couple days of 'time out' to think it over. It was crazy. It wasn't necessarily easy, but nothing like Marines OCS. I would imagine AF OCS is similar, but I don't know for sure.
Anyway, sorry for the sidetrack, you just got me thinking of PLC again. I remember being on the bus with a guy going for his second 6-week period and as we got closer to Quantico he got more and more agitated. I thought he was going to pass out with apprehension as we went through the gate of the base :O I didn't understand it at the time, but it didn't take too long to figure it out.
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Tap, rack, bang?
Diddy taught for a routine to cycle a weapon that fails to fire.
Tap = smack bottom of magazine to ensure proper seating.
Rack = charge handle and cycle round.
Bang = smack forward assist plunger to ensure proper round seating.
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It was pretty obvious that if the DI's didn't think you were up to being an officer, someone they might have to follow into a firefight someday, they would ensure you didn't make it.
My impression as well. In fact, thats pretty much how its designed, I gather, and one of the major reasons that officer candidate evaluation and training is conducted by enlisted men.
Who better to train you than the ones who will follow you?
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Thanks.
How old are the oldest guys that make it thru the Marines intro?
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What is the difference (if any?) between Marine Aviation and Naval Aviation?
donkey
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My roomate went the National Guard route.
During his senior year of high school he joined the Iowa Air National Guard in Des Moines, IA. He did the basic training and job training during the summer. The next 4 years he did the 1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a year deal. He was a weapons loader. Went to Hawaii for 2 weeks last year and Qatar the year before that.
Anyways, while in the guard he first attended a junior college to gain most of his flight ratings. After a year or so there, he went to the University of Nebraska at Omaha and majored in aviation flight. He graduated in 3.5 years and became a flight instructor. Pilot slots opened up in the Des Moines National Guard (they fly F-16's) and he applied for a slot. I'm not sure how many people applied, but he managed to get a slot. He had roughly 1.5 years before he reported to OTS. During that time he got a job in Omaha flying canceled checks in a Navajo between Omaha and Des Moines (His home town). He managed to accumulate quite a few multi engine hours before he had to report to OTS. He reported to OTS in October and started his Air Force flight training in February. He is currently training in Texan II's in Mississippi.
The best thing about my roomates story is that he gets to fly F-16's full time for the Air Force for 4 full years before he comes back to Iowa. When he comes back, he will more than likely get a job with the airlines. His situation allows for him to get the best of both worlds. He will be able to retire from the guard at the age of 38 and continue to fly for 22 more years in the airline industry. Sounds like a great deal to me!!!!
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I think Voss would be the one to ask... he flew F-16's for the CIA.
But apparently the Scorpions can be a bastage...
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Here's my take:
I've done a few different routes to the cockpit- Navy ROTC, Marine OCS, and Navy OCS.
I started in Navy ROTC, with a 3-year guarantee. Get a 3.0 first year out of pocket, the next 3 years are on the Navy. When I was in my second semester I met with my class advisor to go over my grades and stuff. He asked, "What do you want to do in the Navy?" I answered, "Fly jets." He said, "Well, with these grades you're going to be driving ships." Basically, in Navy ROTC (and I imagine AF ROTC isn't too much different) your grades determine your rank. Higher your grades, higher your ranking. When it comes time to pick 'jobs' the start with the #1 guy and give him his choice. Then the #2 guy and give him his choice. And so on. When they get to you, you pick what you want and if there's still slots available, you get it. Otherwise, you get something else. I wonder what slots go first in the Air Force?
So, if you want to drive planes, and go the ROTC route, you HAVE to do well in school in order to be competitive for a job you want. If you are a C student, I guess you better plan on doing something in the USAF besides flying.
For me, I got a 2.98 GPA and had the option of paying to stay in ROTC or drop out. I dropped out.
Fast forward a year. I went to the Marine recruiter, took all the tests, got an air slot (1 of 2). All set with an OCS report date. 2 months before Quantico I get the call..."Yeah, uh (Toonces), one of our air slots got pulled so I have to put you on a ground contract. But, hey, don't worry about it. When you get to Basic School you can compete to get an air slot instead...." Turns out that's about a 1 in 100 chance. So I did my first 6 weeks of OCS, and when it came time to go back for the second part I declined. I had no desire to drive tanks.
Fast forward another year. Senior in college, still want to fly jets. Call the Navy recruiter. "Hey, I want to fly jets." He says, "Well, we need jet pilots, come on down." Took the tests, got accepted into the Navy as a pilot and after graduation reported to Pensacola and proceeded to get my wings.
So, here's the bottom line. ROTC is a great program that will pay for your college and offer you a guaranteed job making decent money, and you will learn a skill that will be useful somewhere for something. You also can get the GI Bill in the military which might not seem like a big deal now, but a few years from now when you're looking at getting a masters, the GI Bill is great to have. I used it to get a masters degree. The downside of ROTC is that it is sort of mickey mouse business, and it sort of drags out the whole military indoctrination process for 4 years. It's a bit of a pain, alot of silly things you have to do.
If you're goal is, like mine, to fly or else, then I don't think ROTC is necessarily the way to go. Sure ROTC gets you in the front door, but you have to really kick bum in school in order to be competitive for a pilot slot. I was a horrible student, so leaving ROTC was definately the right call for me.
OCS, Navy or some other branch, is a safer option if you're goal is only to fly. The downsides are that you won't know if the military is hiring pilots until you've missed your chance for ROTC. Also, you'll have to pay for college. Also, you'll still have to do well enough in school to have a competitive application for OCS. Of course, you can go to OCS for something besides pilot, but then you've sort of wasted the chance to go ROTC in the first place.
Either way, there are no guarantees. You are doing the right thing by considering your options carefully. It all really depends on what your goals are in the military and in life. I think the military is a great deal. I've been very lucky and I have no regrets. I'm facing about 2 of the next 3 years away from my family starting next year, so it's not all happy times, but overall I think the military has alot to offer, besides just getting to fly cool planes.
Good luck!
A few questions when you have the time. First, what do you fly, and was it competitive or like you said, where basically they needed pilots and were happy to get you?
Second, mind sharing a few sentences about what life has been like so far in the Navy for you, especially dealing with aviation part of it?
Right now, I'm considering getting my college degree without joining an ROTC program. That way I can really focus on my grades and then go over my options once I get my degree. From there I have two choices. Either continue living the civilian life and go to work as a engineer, or go to Officer Training School, or what ever each program is called for whatever branch.
I don't want to fly helicopters, and I don't want to join the Army, so right now I'm looking at either the Air Force, Navy, or Marine aviation. If I had my dream choice, it would be flying fighters in the Air Force, with Navy being second choice. (Is the Marines more in support of ground troops then A2A? But I really want to earn my wings, and don't mind going Navy or Marine if that bettered my chances of getting in the cockpit, as I'm think that the Air Force would be the most competitive of the three to get a fighter slot. Right?
Right now, I'm wondering just what are the differences between being a pilot in the Navy verses the Marines?
Also, I'll continue to search google, etc, but does anyone know of a good site that kind of compares the three side by side?
donkey
PS: Thanks for all of the help so far guys, appreciate it.
Oh, and forgot to add, that just as a little indication, I'm a senior right now with a 4.17 GPA, with AP Calculus, AP English, and AP Biology being my hardest classes (Advanced Drama, Civics/Econ, and psychology being the other three).
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Thanks.
How old are the oldest guys that make it thru the Marines intro?
IIRC, the max age limit is 36. Had plenty of guys who came really close to approaching that.
PLC is filled with all college kids simply because the program is designed to accommodate 1st and 2nd year students.
OCS, on the other hand has a mix... I'd say the average age in my platoon was probably 30-32. The older you get, the more difficult it becomes, Im sure, almost entirely based upon the speed at which your body is able to recover from the beating, night after night, on 4 hours of sleep, but plenty of the old salts did just fine so long as they were already in fantastic shape. They did have the advantage of 'life experience,' though. The older guys were more capable of sustaining the constant mental/emotional barrage than the younger hot-heads and, of course, they became the natural leaders because they were able to maintain tact and bearing.
The guys that got axed the quickest were actually the gym rats, regardless of age. They lifted for looks, got them, and when it came time to perform in non-controlled environments (as opposed to a gym), they would often tear connecting tissue because the "muscle" was capable of exerting much more force than the tissue joining it with the bone could hold. This is because, in those controlled environments, many machine and even free-weight exercises totally neglect vital portions of the tissue which would otherwise be supporting the ability to exert force, overall.
If you're thinking about applying, let me know. Would be glad to talk with you about it in more detail as far as what you can expect and whether or not it would ultimately be the right decision for you. Whether you complete it or not, it will change you forever.
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Thanks.. I'd like to, but I'm already past the point of no return in the other alternative I had at this point in my life.. 4 years ago I was ready to go for it and asking everyone I knew for info, but it's too late now. It's still tempting, but the best thing I can do is ask questions like this and tell myself I could just dive in and drop everything else :D
And IIRC I can't qualify since I don't even have a green card yet. Back then I was ready to go straight to any front line and earn the green card, but now I have too much to lose from that. Thanks for the offer :)
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A few questions (toonces, or whoever) when you have the time. First, what do you fly, and was it competitive or like you said, where basically they needed pilots and were happy to get you?
Second, mind sharing a few sentences about what life has been like so far in the Navy for you, especially dealing with aviation part of it?
Right now, I'm considering getting my college degree without joining an ROTC program. That way I can really focus on my grades and then go over my options once I get my degree. From there I have two choices. Either continue living the civilian life and go to work as a engineer, or go to Officer Training School, or what ever each program is called for whatever branch.
I don't want to fly helicopters, and I don't want to join the Army, so right now I'm looking at either the Air Force, Navy, or Marine aviation. If I had my dream choice, it would be flying fighters in the Air Force, with Navy being second choice. (Is the Marines more in support of ground troops then A2A? But I really want to earn my wings, and don't mind going Navy or Marine if that bettered my chances of getting in the cockpit, as I'm think that the Air Force would be the most competitive of the three to get a fighter slot. Right?
Right now, I'm wondering just what are the differences between being a pilot in the Navy verses the Marines?
Also, I'll continue to search google, etc, but does anyone know of a good site that kind of compares the three side by side?
donkey
PS: Thanks for all of the help so far guys, appreciate it.
Oh, and forgot to add, that just as a little indication, I'm a senior right now with a 4.17 GPA, with AP Calculus, AP English, and AP Biology being my hardest classes (Advanced Drama, Civics/Econ, and psychology being the other three).
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I flew P-3 Orions. When I applied to the Navy, I was lucky- they needed pilots. The Navy had cut pilot slots too far and they had a deficit of pilots when I applied. Had they been fat on pilots I doubt I would have gotten in- my college grades were terrible. As far as competitiveness, one thing you have to get used to from the get go is that you're going to be competing from day 1 if your goal is to fly, and continue to fly, jets.
When you get to OCS, you'll already have a pilot or NFO slot, so there's no competition on that score. Once you get accepted to OCS, unless you're a total flake, getting to Pensacola should be almost guaranteed. A few folks got clipped by medical- you can pass all the physicals you want before OCS, but the one they give you AT OCS is the one that counts. They are very, very thorough and absolutely ruthless in dropping you from aviation if you don't pass the physical. I got popped twice- once for my vision even though I was 20/20 in my pre-OCS physical, and a few times for my height. I got re-tested on vision and passed. I also got measured about 30 different ways and barely, I mean exactly, passed the height requirements (almost lost on the knee to butt measurement). One woman who was the same height as me didn't pass that length test and was dropped. Another guy had some heart murmur or sound or something that was enough that they dropped him. The woman DOR'd, the guy changed to intel.
When I reported to flight school, I got measured again. Basically they put me in a cockpit of each plane in training (man, that T-2 fit like a glove!) and then made me touch all the buttons and stuff. I couldn't full deflect the rudders in the T-44 so I fudged it by scooting forward a bit and saying I could get full deflection when I couldn't. In the T-34, they put a helmet bag 50 feet in front of the plane and you had to be able to see it from the cockpit. Of course I couldn't see it, but I said I could ;) When I eventually got assigned to P-3s and had to fly T-44s in training I used to fly with my NATOPS manual behind my back to scoot me forward enough in the seat to fully push the rudder pedals.
Once you get to flight school, it is very competitive. In order to qualify to select jets, you have to have 'jet grades'. When you do a flight in primary flight school, you get graded afterwards on 20 or 30 criteria, below average, average, or above average. A good flight will net you a single above average (or one more above than below), a great flight is two aboves. Over all the flights you add up all your aboves (think of it like a K/D ratio) and they average all the aboves for the last 90 guys to graduate. Say the average number of aboves for a graduating pilot is 30. To qualify for jets you have to be in the top 50%- so you'd have to have 31+. If you have 30 or less, you have to select from other platforms than jets (P-3, E-2, helos). Right from the beginning, then, you are competing for a 50/50 chance to even ask for jets.
Say you graduate, and you have jet grades, say 37 aboves. Then they take all the guys graduating that week from all the training squadrons and compare those guys against each other. Say there's 4 guys graduating that week with jet grades. There are two jet slots available that week. Well, they go to the guy with the highest average and see what his first choice is. If it's jets, he gets them. Then they go to #2. He wants jets, he gets them. #3 wants jets, but all the jet slots are taken. He gets his second choice. #4 wants jets, but they're taken. He wants P-3s second, but they're taken. There are no E-2 slots that week. So #4 (and anyone below him) goes helos, even if he was way above average.
This is sort of what happened to me. I graduated #1 in Corpus Christi my week, but there were no jet slots at all available so I got my #2 choice by default. Some weeks everyone got jets, some weeks nobody got jets. So, it's competitive, but then the needs of the Navy always take precedence.
Ok, so say you got P-3s. You go to advanced flight training and it starts all over again. You have your heart set on being detailed to a P-3 squadron in Jacksonville. So, you go through advanced and then they rank everyone against each other and they assign squadrons based on what you want based on your rank. The first guy gets what he wants, the last guy gets whatever's left, and the middle guys fall out somewhere in between.
Ok, now you report to your squadron. Well, every year you get a fitness report- like a report card on your performance. You're ranked against everyone in your squadron in the same paygrade. You can get a promotable, must promote, or early promote (best). But, only 10% of the people ranked can get an EP. So, you're competing against your peers from day 1 to be ranked in that top 10%. When it comes time for orders, the detailer is going to look at what you want, and how you're ranked against your peers and that will determine where you go.
When it comes time for promotion above O-3, your file goes in front of a promotion board. There they look at your total fitness reports and compare them to everyone in the Navy in your paygrade (this is simplified a bit, there's other factors like type of duty, etc. that factor in). If they can promote 50% of the Lieutenants then you get ranked and promoted if you're in the top 50%....
So, are you starting to see a pattern here? From day 1 you'll be competing for everything in the military. You're always being compared to your peers. Some of it is politics, some of it is being the 'favorite' and some of it (not much in P-3s unfortunately) is just plain being good at your job. My strategy has always been to just do as well as I can and let everything fall out where it does.
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Ok, long answer, but the insight is hopefully useful.
How do I feel about aviation?
I loved flying planes. Look, being paid to fly is just plain cool. Everytime I landed I sort of felt like I had scammed the world a little bit...like I'm driving home after a flight and I look at all these people doing there regular jobs and I think, "Man, while you guys were all working I was up there flying today." When I got assigned to P-3s I broke down and cried; I wanted to be a fighter pilot since I was a small kid. But I came to love the Orion and you'll come to love any plane you fly. Flying the P-3 was a great experience- you can gas that plane up, fly from Washington to San Diego, do ASW for a couple of hours, and then fly home all on a single tank of gas. I've flown in combat missions. I've done some cool things, flown on alot of subs, and seen much of the world.
The downside is that you don't spend all your time flying. The Navy doesn't want pilots, it wants leaders. The most flying you'll do is flight school and your first couple of deployments. After that, your pilot time gets smaller. As you get more senior you get more ground responsibilities and less flying time. That's why the Navy offers such huge incentives to pilots at their get out point. The guys know that if they stay in they're flying days are limited, and most bail for the airlines to stay in the cockpit.
My personal story (very short version) is that the P-3 is getting phased out and I knew the promotion opportunities in the community were going to be limited. So, I stopped flying a few years ago and changed into the oceanography community. I love studying the ocean as much as I love flying, so for me this has been an incredible experience.
I've been very fortunate because the Navy has paid me to fulfill the only things I ever wanted to do as an adult- fly planes and study the ocean. The downside is alot of time away from home and family. The downside is that I have little say in where I go and what I do (I'm getting sent to Norfolk next, a place I despise). The upside is that I make alot of money and I am building a great retirement, all to do the job I want to do with people I enjoy working with. I've always been into the mission of the military, playing wargames and such growing up, so to do it for real is just a lot of fun. It's one thing to hunt subs on a computer game, and it's another thing entirely to do it for real- what other job can you do that in?
Marines vs. Navy vs. Airforce:
Just my opinions here. Marines always seeem to me to be really into being Marines. The first thing you do out of Marine OCS is go to Basic School for a year to do grunt stuff. Everything in the Marines is geared to that mentality. Marines fly alot of helos and Harriers, but their Hornets deploy on CVNs just like Navy jets. The mentality is different though.
Air Force vs. Navy:
Every Navy plane has a NATOPS manual with all the procedures for the plane in it. The Navy rule is "You can't do it if it's prohibited in NATOPS."
Every Air Force plane has their equivalent and the Air Force rule is "You can't do it if the manual doesn't say you can do it."
It's a subtle difference, but it is important. The Navy seems to encourage more independence, the Air Force encourages more by the numbers.
I've heard that the Navy actually has more planes than the AF, or burns more hours or more gas or something like that. The USAF isn't necessarily the best bet for flying a plane among the services. But, the AF has alot more interesting planes to fly in my opinion. The Navy seems to view flying almost as a collateral duty; the USAF seems to view flying as THE job. I don't know any AF pilots, so I could be wrong, but I would think that flying for the AF is more rewarding career wise than the Navy. But, the Navy has cooler uniforms, and flying off the boat is pretty awesome (of course I picked about the only Navy plane that doesn't do that...)
Final thoughts:
Waiting until you're ready to graduate to apply to OCS is a risky move. You'll be at the whim of whether or not the services need pilots at that time. ROTC is also a risky move because there are no guarantees you'll get a pilot slot even if you have good grades.
Having said that, though, there's almost no downside, in my opinion, to doing a few years in the military as an officer out of college. Getting some military experience will almost certainly open up doors for you, and the GI Bill benefits are outstanding. Once you get your foot in the door, there are a ton of opportunities.
Ultimately, you should be asking yourself what your motivation is to explore the military. The path to the front seat of a Hornet is littered with folks that tried and failed: people that applied but weren't accepted into the military, people who got in but didn't do well enough for a pilot slot, people that attrited out of flight school physically or academically, people that did well enough but there were no jets available, then people that got to jets but attrited out of there, and so on. If it were easy, everyone would do it. But, if your goal is to fly, and you understand that there are no guarantees but you're prepared to give 110% anyway, then I say go for it. It's better to try and fail then never try at all.
Lastly, you might want to look into the service academies. With your grades, you are probably very competitive for that.
Hope I didn't bore you to tears with the overly long post.
<S>
Toonces
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A little motivation for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlFPDTgyQf0
I'll tell you what, if I could do it all over again and I could choose between being a P-3 pilot, or an F-14/F-18 RIO, I'd take the backseat in a second.
Don't let the crappy Top Gun music throw you- it gets better quickly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx3Vjkqz9V8&feature=related
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Wow, toonces, thanks for that, it was great!
Regarding the various academies, I'm sure I've already missed the deadlines this year, and I'm already accepted to Cal Poly, SLO under early acceptance. Add to that, the only ROTC program (either located on campus or that is part of a cross-town program) is Army ROTC, which I have no desire to do.
So for me, if I wanted to join, the only way would really be OCS, and it's really no more risky then ROTC, right?
I've always loved the Hornet, but I've always liked the Air Force. My main dream though is to really just fly (jets preferably :D), but I also understand that things don't always work out for people. I guess at the least I'll have a chance to study hard, review my options for AF/Navy, and have time to think about it.
Obviously it would just plain suck to go through all of that and not get a slot, but I guess that's the way life is sometimes...
Thanks for all the great info.
donkey
:salute
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DOes anyone know if the coast guard have an ROTC program? i want to go Coast Guard.
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So for me, if I wanted to join, the only way would really be OCS, and it's really no more risky then ROTC, right?
Actually it’s a lot more risky than ROTC. I know in the Air Force, the greatest number of pilot slots go to the academy students, the next greatest goes to the ROTC students and only a handful goes to OTS graduates (that is if you can even get into OTS). The Air Force commissions most of its officers through ROTC not OTS so the slots are limited and even getting in can be a problem, much less obtaining a pilot slot at the same time.
Personally if I were you I’d just go to a college or university that offers AFROTC or NROTC in the first place but if it’s too late and you already accepted admission into a school that doesn’t offer it, then you can always transfer after the fall semester.
Or one other option you have if you want to go the Air Force route without joining AFROTC is to enlist in the Air National Guard, serve your time while in school, then get your commission after you graduate. You’d then be able to apply for a pilot slot when one opens up at your particular Guard unit. Typically Guard units prefer giving their slots to prior enlistees. But then again you might not be the only prior enlistee competing for the same slot.
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DOes anyone know if the coast guard have an ROTC program? i want to go Coast Guard.
No the Coast Guard doesn’t have a ROTC program but they have a bunch of other great programs that would be worth checking out. You can probably find all the information you’re looking for right on their homepage.
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I was gonna PM this, but since the thread is back up here is what I was going to say:
You (Donkey) definately need to call and talk to a recruiter if you're even remotely serious about joining the military. Talk to a recruiter about officer programs, not enlisting.
The Navy, and probably the Air Force, have alot of different programs. We're just scratching the surface here. For example, you could go to SLO for a year and transfer to another school that has a NROTC program with a 3-year contract. Most of your classes your first year should be general education and you should be able to transfer them all with no problem, especially if you stay in the same major. I don't know if AFROTC offers 3 years or not, but really you need to talk to a USAF recruiter to get specifics. The Navy may have a 2-year program as well, so you really aren't too late if that's what you think. If your grades are awesome after your first year, this could be a good way to enter NROTC knowing how you handle college level classes and getting an idea of how competitive you are GPA-wise.
With respect to USAF OTS, I called the USAF recruiter right before I called the Navy recruiter, and the USAF had 50 Nav slots and 1 pilot slot for the ENTIRE country for the year. Not good odds at all. I have no idea what it is now, which is another reason to talk to a recruiter.
Finally, don't rule out the service academies. I don't know if they'll let you in after you start school somewhere else, but since alot of students attend a year of prep school before reporting to the Naval Academy, I wouldn't be surprised if they can let you in if you're grades are awesome after a year somewhere else...
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You (Donkey) definately need to call and talk to a recruiter if you're even remotely serious about joining the military. Talk to a recruiter about officer programs, not enlisting.
As a side note to this, it was my experience that the initial calls to enlisted recruiters about officer information were almost always met with variations of "What in the hell do you want to be an officer for? You want to sit behind a desk...? No, no, no, THIS is what you want! Enlist! Kill! Tanks! Guns! Kaboom! Officers are weenies with pens!"
I dont know what some of the other branches call them, but the USMC has what are called OSO's (Officer Selection Officer's). Recruiters, yes, but only for officer candidates and with far less car salesman BS. They dont really need to sell the service because the people who apply for entry into the program want to get in far more than the OSO needs them in. Besides that, its a selection process which, between medical tests, aptitude tests, transcripts, physical tests and the ultimate approval or denial determination from a voting body, takes months. You cant just walk in, sign a few papers, take the ASVAB and get a ship out date and enlistment bonus. It took a full 12 months from the time I submitted my initial application for my selection to be approved.
Calling an OSO (or whatever the USAF equivalent is) means you'll get officer-specific information and a straight story on what to expect. Mine was invaluable in terms of information, preparation and general assistance. He used to drive 45 minutes from his office to my school to run with me once every week for six months prior to my ship date. If he couldnt make it, he'd send his Gunny, who was an equally awesome human being. How many "recruiters" do stuff like that?
Now don't get me wrong, they have quotas to fill, but they don't need to try very hard at all since the number of people who apply is probably close to double the number who are ultimately selected from any one geographical office.
If you want to go officer, I strongly recommend that the only reason you call an enlistment office is to get a telephone number for the selection officer in the area.
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The air Force, Chairforce :D
Right now i'm in Army JROTC in high school and right now im still uncertin weather I should join the Marines or the Airfore, personally everyone tells me to join the Airfore, even my friend who is in the Marines right now.
Right now im sitting here with a ROTC scholorship already to help me to what college I want to go to right now. I havn't looked for what college I want to go to yet either.
If you go into the AFROTC program in college and you decide to go into the airforce, your going to go in right as an officer. Personally that would be the way that I would go. More money and a better job. Of course when I go in, im going in as a pilot so...
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Toons and Saurdaukar are right that enlisting first probably isn’t the ideal way to go about getting a commission. There are plenty of risks involved and like every method of earning a pilot slot, it’s not 100% guaranteed. Though, it’s probably better for you to know ALL your options then decide which works best for you personally. Enlisting in the ANG of Air Force Reserves can potentially open up some doors for you especially if ROTC isn’t an option.
Just consider these facts from the Air Force OTS website:
“The service is continuing to encourage enlisted airmen who can achieve academic requirements and have leadership potential to seek commissions through ROTC, Officer Training School or the Air Force Academy.”
“Of the Air Force’s approximately 72,400 officers, about 20 percent were once enlisted.”
“The fact that Airmen have the dedication to earn a commission is a good indication that they will do well as officers and likely won’t be among those who will be asked to leave (OTS).”
“By percentage, an airman has a better chance at landing an aircrew position. In 2005, 84 percent of the enlisted airmen seeking OTS commissions as navigators were selected. The selection rate for OTS pilots was 63 percent and 71 percent for OTS air battle managers.”
And wantscheck.com has a whole section dedicated to getting a pilot slot with the ANG and they state that:
“More people apply than are accepted to interview. The breakdown is typically 10% of applicants will be asked to interview. From this interview, 1 or 2 applicants are selected to attend UPT (Undergraduate Pilot Training) and 1 or 2 alternates will be chosen should any problems occur with the primary selects.”
“Qualified enlisted persons in the unit are often guaranteed an interview.”
Personally speaking, if I could go back in time knowing what I know now, I would have enlisted in the ANG right out of high school and served simultaneously while attending college and being enrolled in AFROTC. But that’s just me.
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Saurdaker said precisely what I was trying to say. Talk to an officer programs recruiter- not an enlisted recruiter.
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Alright, thanks guys for all the help. I'll talk to someone and make sure there's absolutely no chance that I can get into a cross-town ROTC program.
donkey