Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: DREDIOCK on April 23, 2008, 07:37:31 AM
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I'm slowly resolving myself to the idea Im gonna have to build a new machine at some point in the future. Within the next month or two.
My wifes is too slow wont work in the game And the EMachine is promised to her because my wifes machine is promised to my daughter.
Now I could be selfish and just upgrade the memory and video card in the EMachine. If not for the fact..Well it goes like this.
I originally promised as I said. The Emachine was going to go to the wife. My wifes old machine was going ot go to my daughter as soon as I got another hard drive for it.
A Few weeks ago we received a report that my daughter wasnt handing in her homework. so I told her she wasnt providing me with any incentive to do the upgrades to make the switches.
Last week she walks in and hands me a sheet of paper. And said "Is THIS enough incentive?"
It was a certificate from her school that she had made the honor roll.
Well from my point of view its kinda hard to argue with that LOL
So shes earned it.
So now Im stuck with having to build new.
Its gonna haveta be as cheap as possible.
Lets see what you folks can come up with.
We will start with what I already have and dont need.
160 gig WD SATA 300 Caviar SE
"MAD DOG Sure Power" 430W power supply
CD/DVD players
SB LIVE Sound card
As for the case. Thie one I was using is more then adequate Steel case and the only place this thing doesnt have a fan is the bottom.
I'll just strip her down of components and give it a fresh paintjob .
I have ram but its 184 pin which I understand wont work in the newer systems. So my daughter and wife with inherit those.
so I figure I am gonna need a
Motherboard
CPU
Video card
Memory
Rules.
I dont care if its AMD or intel but.
Its gonna haveta be on a budget (unless I get a really BIG job)
It must be able to run AH well
It MUST be quiet.
I hate loud machines that sound like shopvacs
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I am sure you will get a lot of opinions on this, but with the power supply you have, I would stick with an Intel CPU as they consume much less power than the AMD counterpart these days. You will also come out ahead on the performance side as well.
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Here's a very highly rated motherboard for $89. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128059. I just did a build following a lot of research. I didn't buy this board but it was close.
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Depends on your budget but if money is issue I would look into the Asrock motherboard + Intel cpu combo offer. You get a 2.66 Ghz Intel c2d + motherboard factory overclocked for around $180. Asrock is a cheaper version of Asus and they've made extremely high quality boards with low price.
Add in a 8800GT for another $180, 4gb ram $80 and you've got a cheap gaming box with near high-end performance.
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I'd look at something like this:
Update GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX All Solid Capacitor Intel Motherboard - Retail
Model #: GA-P35-DS3L
Item #: N82E16813128059
Return Policy: Limited 30-Day Return Policy
In Stock
$89.99 $89.99
Update EVGA 512-P2-N757-TR GeForce 8600GT 512MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail
Model #: 512-P2-N757-TR
Item #: N82E16814130290
Return Policy: Limited Non-Refundable 30-Day Return Policy
In Stock
Mail-in Rebate
$149.99 -$20.00 Instant $129.99
Update Intel Core 2 Duo E6550 Conroe 2.33GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80557E6550 - Retail
Model #: BX80557E6550
Item #: N82E16819115030
Return Policy: Processors (CPUs) Return Policy
In Stock
$164.99 $164.99
Update Kingston 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model KVR800D2K2/2GR - Retail
Model #: KVR800D2K2/2GR
Item #: N82E16820134488
Return Policy: Memory (Modules, USB) Return Policy
In Stock
$82.99 -$42.00 Instant $40.99
Subtotal: $425.96
Video card Mail-n Rebate (-30.00)
Total 395.96
Some will say the 8600 isn't a good card but it's one of the best in this price range. If you're worried about it you can get an 8800 GT for an extra $60.
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If you want to go cheap deals like this are hard to bargain: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813135082 ($59.99 after $20.00 Mail-In
Rebate)
ECS GF6100-M754 (V1.0) Athlon 3200+ 754 NVIDIA GeForce 6100 512MB DDR Memory Micro ATX Motherboard/CPU/Memory Combo - Retail
Free 512MB DDR memory included, limited time offer
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I'd look at the $500 budget gaming build on toms, got an awful lot out of $500. I'd look at the cpu/MB/Mem/VC combo they picked as a good set of options...
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I'd look at something like this:
Update EVGA 512-P2-N757-TR GeForce 8600GT 512MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail
Model #: 512-P2-N757-TR
Item #: N82E16814130290
Return Policy: Limited Non-Refundable 30-Day Return Policy
In Stock
Mail-in Rebate
$149.99 -$20.00 Instant $129.99
Some will say the 8600 isn't a good card but it's one of the best in this price range. If you're worried about it you can get an 8800 GT for an extra $60.
I've seen the 8800GT for $150 after discounts and rebates at Newegg. It really is worth the extra $20.
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I've seen the 8800GT for $150 after discounts and rebates at Newegg. It really is worth the extra $20.
$60. Theres a rebate on the 8600 too which puts it under $100. I took that off at the bottom.
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I like that Im getting differing suggestions.
Thank you one and all now and in the future as we peice this all together.
While its not a bad deal
Not going to go 3200+ again.
If Im gonna build I'd like to build something I can build off of (upgrade)
Might as well go next generation.
GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX All Solid Capacitor Intel Motherboard
Curious as to why this board?
Condor. What board did you end up getting. and why?
Purely curious questions
And why the 775 socket as opposed to the others?
Again. purely curious. As I havent been up on the newer CPUs and MBs since I built the last machine.
Find it easier to keep whats left of my sanity that way LOL
Im figuring as a starting point around $100 give or take on the motherboard.
CPU. Im not sure yet.
Im trying to keep all this stuff off my credit cards other then what I can pay for immediately upon buying anything.
as Im trying to rid myself of them and not create more debt
So there is a chance I will end up buying a part here and a part there till I get it all together
Nothing is absolutely written in stone as to the price.
So I'd like to have various options without going overboard. Like I said. Im trying ot rid myself of debt.
Cant do that if all the money is going on a new machine LOL
Think of this as our bang for buck build project.
We will get a general consensus on the parts.
And I'll end up building it.
Fist thing im gonna need to do is pick up a copy of XP pro while I still can. Jusst in case I cant reuse whats now on my HD (im betting I cant. and Ill need at least one copy anyway for this Emachne.
One thing is fer sure. this Emachine NEEDs a video card before I can turn it over to my wife. I can get all kinds of resolution.
But I have no options for refresh rate. A real PIA when it comes to using the wheel scroll on the mouse LOL
But thats neither here nor there at the moment.
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BTW which is better to start better on?
the CPU? or the mother board?
Im thinking mother board .As its easier to upgrade the CPU later then it is to upgrade the MB
BTW I tink we can start MB prices at around $125 give or take as opposed to $100.
Doesnt mean we cant go less like the Gigabyte mentioned. if thats the better overall deal.
But we can go higher if a better one yet is available at around $125.
Just got a nice Wallpapering job.
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I got the Abit IP35 Pro. It has more convenience/setup features, great reviews, and more overclocking potential then the Gigabyte board. The Gigabyte board was a very close second. I'm not sure I'll ever benefit much from the features of the Abit board. Reviews say the Gigabyte board is very stable and a good overclocker. As for why socket 775. The current Intel CPUs require socket 775. AMD CPUs require a different socket as do earlier Intel CPUs. I chose an Intel Core Duo CPU becuase they are the best performers out there for AH. Skuzzy says there is no gain with going quad core and the current dual core AMD CPUs do not perform at nearly the same level as the current Intels. I would select the CPU first. The CPU choice dictates the socket but I beleive all of the motherboard manufactureres make boards for whichever CPU you are likely to select. I should add the disclaimer that I'm no expert. Most of what I know I learned recently in researching for my machine. My machine worked great from the start so I must have done something right. I don't know what would be the best motherboard choice in the $125 range. Check the current price of the Abit IP35 PRO. It was more than $125 a month ago but prices drop quickly. One choice that may make a difference is Intel or Nvidia chipsets on the motherboard. The Intel chipsets will work fine with an Nvidia video card but will not support SLI. If you think you will want to run SLI you will need a motherboard with Nvidea chipsets.
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Ok just looked up that board on newegg
Came up twice for two different prices.
$169 ($139 after rebate)
And $99
why?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Description=Abit+IP35+Pro&x=0&y=0
Ok I know about quad core
And I know Pentium is old school But whats the difference between
Core 2 Extreme & Core 2 Duo?
BTW got the video working right on this Emachine.
Seems it needed the drivers reinstalled.
Its got sound now too.
LOL I feel like Capt Kirk on the USS Constelation.
"now if I only had some phasers" LMAO
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Nevermind on the price difference.
If I as my mother would say "looked a littel farther then the end of my nose"
I would have seen the cheaper one is an "open box" sale
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The Abit IP35 Pro mobo is an excellent choice, as Condor has already alluded to w/ his selection. This mobo can run all Intel LGA 775 socket CPU's to date-includes the 45nm series w/ just a BIOS upgrade.
I myself am currently running an Abit IP35 Pro mobo. That Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L is a good board as well. These mobos are lower-end Intel P35 chipset-equipped units that have some high-end capabilities built in so they make very good foundations for budget-based Intel boxes that can also give you some performance options & some longer legs between the next major upgrade.
Please consider any of the Intel Core 2 Duo series of CPU's, either the Allendale's or low-end Conroe's to start off with as these CPU's have a lot of headroom as they overclock very well & do it on air cooling & are cheap.
Before you use your 430W Mad Dog PSU, I would seriously run your intended/proposed budget setup thru a PSU Wattage Calculator to make sure you got enough PSU to run in all intended configurations. Intel has a good one on their site that you can use for free. Another item of note: most of the modern mobos will have a 24-pin main connector & will require a PSU w/ the same connector. If your existing PSU has the old 20-pin main mobo connector, well you gonna need to also consider a newer PSU as well.
Most mobos these days are geared for using SATA drives ( mobos only coming out w/ 1 PATA connector-if 1 at all) & I really don't think you'll like the performance from your existing HDD w/ a CD-Rom/DVD Rom drive slaved on the same PATA headder w/ your HDD (assuming that your existing HDD is a PATA drive) so you might want to also consider at least 1 drive for your upgrade to be a SATA drive-preferrably the HDD.
Hope this helps you in some way.
:)
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I looked at the Gigabyte board and the Abit board mentioned above when I built my system. I ended up going pretty high end on my Mobo (EVGA 780i... great board but expensive). Had I decided not to go with the board I got I probably would have bought the Abit although I also looked at some other Gigabyte boards in your price range ($100-150) and there are some nice options there. These are all Intel P-35 chipset boards.
As someone already mentioned, if you want to go SLI in the future, you'll need an NVidea chipset, and if you want to go ATI Crossfire, you'll need an Intel X-38 chipset but odds are you'll never need to go SLI or Crossfire.
I originally recommended the board I did as you mentioned you were on a buget and it's a nice board for a buget build but still pretty future-proof
One thing to note with the Gigabyte boards (or any boards for that matter) is that you should visit their web-sites to check the compatible memory list before buying your memory. The list is pretty specific with the Gigabyte boards.
The 775 socket fits all the new Intel dual and quad core processors. No options there if you want an Intel CPU. The Core2Extreme processors have larger L2 caches (and probably higher internal clock speeds) than the Core2Duos but are WAY expensive. The E8400 Wolfdale Core2Duo (3.0 Gig) is nearly on par with the lower end Core2Extremes and Quad Cores but the Allendales and Conroes are fast, stable, overclock well and represent good bang for the buck if you don't have the extra cash for the E8400. I bought the E6750 Conroe (2.66 Gig) and it's been great. Go to Tomshardware.com and check out the processor performance charts.
As mentioned above, choose your processor first (or at least the family), then build around it.
[EDIT] I forgot to mention, make sure that whatever board you buy has the slots you need for whatever add-in cards you need to install, and that it has the ports that you need for your peripherals.
Two things to consider for the future; DDR3 RAM will one day come along but prices are currently quite high and with the current saturation of DDR2 RAM you should be OK for several years before you'll need to change.
The other consideration is PCIe x16 slots. PCIe x16 2.0 is quickly becoming the standard although current video cards don't fully utilize the added bandwidth and the only boards with the 2.0 slots support either ATI Crossfire or SLI, thus have multiple slots you may never use. If you do decide this is important, then also consider the bandwidth for the available slots. Few will run both (or all) slots at full x16 bandwidth. Many run at x16/x8 or x8/x8 in SLI (or Crossfire) configurations.
If I were building on a budget, I wouldn't worry about either of these things at this time.
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Ok good to know the potential future of those boards
CPU wise. When selecting I guess Im looking at a combination of speed (ghz) and L2 Cache size for the price?
From what I am looking at. This is what makes the E8400 so popular.
Example. Im looking at Newegg right now
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 3.0GHz LGA 775 65W Processor - Retail
* 1333MHz FSB
* 45 nm Wolfdale
* 6MB L2 Cache
$199
And
Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 3.0GHz LGA 775 65W Processor - Retail
* 1333MHz FSB
* 65 nm Conroe
* 4M shared L2 Cache
$189
The difference seems to be the L2 Cache
It also seems that to go up on the processor to next best is the
Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 3.16GHz LGA 775 65W Processor - Retail
* 1333MHz FSB
* 45 nm Wolfdale
* 6MB L2 Cache
But thats $100 more then the E8400. So it becomes a matter of is the 8500 $100 worth of better?
That about the size of it?
BTW Im leaning to the 8400 provided that price holds and unless someone suggests something better. or reason not to go with it, considering all the positive feedback on the Gigbyte board.
With the price of that. It makes the price of the 8400 more affordable.
But for now We will stick with the $125 range on the Motherboard
Unless someone gives me a really good reason to go SLI we will not plan on doing that.
But. if that option is available in the future. all the better. but its not a must
My current hard drive is alredy a SATA so no real concern there.
I'd prefer to have at least one ide slot though as there is still and old hard rive I have with some files I'd like to get at.
Other things Im planning on hoking up PCI Sound card and PCI Ethernet card. Assuming its still better to run both on seperate cards then off the mainboard. And inasmuch as I already have em.
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OK so here is where we stand so far.
Barring the unforseen or a great deal on something better for around the same price.
CPU- E8400
Motherboard. Leaning to the Gigabyte board but its still up in the air and Up to around the $125 price range
One thing we havent mentioned. CPU at that price probably doesnt come with a CPU heatsink&Fan
This is important. I want it to stay cool but I also want it to stay QUIET.
the case has 4 fans already so airflow isnt a problem.
Doesnt have to be liquid cooled. Just reasonably priced and reasonably quiet.
--Edit--
Yes I know im going a bit higher priced on the CPU for a budget build.
But overall it seems to be the best bang for buck.
this is my logic
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The intel processors come with a heatsink and fan. Many buy aftermarket coolers. I didn't. I'm using the stock Intel units and my CPU idles at 27-28C and runs at 36-38C under load. Max recommended operating temp is just over 70C.
Here's what the stock unit looks like:
(http://flourishcomputer.com/products/desktop/desktop_right/fan/intel775fan.gif)
As far as motherboards go, I took a look at newegg. Here's a product comparison sheet on a few that I might consider (the earlier recommended Gigabye and ABit boards are included here):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?Submit=Property&N=2000200280%201070509908&OEMMark=0&Manufactory=1283%2C1312%2C1314&PropertyCodeValue=705%3A9908%2C707%3A25639%2C707%3A31640%2C717%3A28997%2C757%3A7618&CompareItemList=N82E16813130096%2CN82E16813128086%2CN82E16813128082%2CN82E16813127030%2CN82E16813128059&bop=And&Order=RATING (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?Submit=Property&N=2000200280%201070509908&OEMMark=0&Manufactory=1283%2C1312%2C1314&PropertyCodeValue=705%3A9908%2C707%3A25639%2C707%3A31640%2C717%3A28997%2C757%3A7618&CompareItemList=N82E16813130096%2CN82E16813128086%2CN82E16813128082%2CN82E16813127030%2CN82E16813128059&bop=And&Order=RATING)
This one in particular looks like a nice board to me, and it allows you the option to move to DDR3 memory at some point in the future:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128082 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128082)
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I use the standard equipment Intel cooler too. Contrary to many comments on Newegg it works just fine as long as you take the time to fully understand how the mounting fasteners work. I've at various times used the stock thermal pad that comes with it or Arctic Silver just to see if there was any difference in running temps. Works about the same for me either way. I've installed several over the last year or so.
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I am sure you will get a lot of opinions on this, but with the power supply you have, I would stick with an Intel CPU as they consume much less power than the AMD counterpart these days. You will also come out ahead on the performance side as well.
Currently AMD consumes much less power than an Intel CPU. However Intel is better at Multi-tasking than AMD, and AMD is better for people who don't Multi-task a lot.
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Currently AMD consumes much less power than an Intel CPU. However Intel is better at Multi-tasking than AMD, and AMD is better for people who don't Multi-task a lot.
I thought I remember reading on Tomshardware that AMD processors used less power in idle than Intel C2D's. But at load, Intel won hands down.
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That is correct Fulmar. Running any application at all the Intel CPU's will run cooler than the AMD counterpart. Much cooler. (i.e. they consume much less power when they are actually doing something).
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Power Consumption and cost rates for Intel and AMD
Intel AMD
No Load
Power consumption 182 W 161 W
Consumption per year 1594 kWh 1410 kWh
Cost per year (at 8.5 cents per kWh) $135.49 $119.85
Full Load (including graphics)
Power consumption 342 W 269 W
Consumption per year 2995 kWh 2356 kWh
Cost per year (at 8.5 cents per kWh) $254.58 $200.26
Full Load (without graphics)
Power consumption 295 W 228 W
Consumption per year 2584 kWh 1997 kWh
Cost per year (at 8.5 cents per kWh) $219.64 $169.75
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Power Consumption and cost rates for Intel and AMD
Intel AMD
No Load
Power consumption 182 W 161 W
Consumption per year 1594 kWh 1410 kWh
Cost per year (at 8.5 cents per kWh) $135.49 $119.85
Full Load (including graphics)
Power consumption 342 W 269 W
Consumption per year 2995 kWh 2356 kWh
Cost per year (at 8.5 cents per kWh) $254.58 $200.26
Full Load (without graphics)
Power consumption 295 W 228 W
Consumption per year 2584 kWh 1997 kWh
Cost per year (at 8.5 cents per kWh) $219.64 $169.75
Ummm source please.
I must say that this doesn't make sense to me. If everyone is telling the truth about how cool their intel Core 2 Duo's are running.
More power means more heat, there is no way around that. Unless you figured something out that you are waiting to share with the rest of the world
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Power Consumption and cost rates for Intel and AMD
Intel AMD
No Load
Power consumption 182 W 161 W
Consumption per year 1594 kWh 1410 kWh
Cost per year (at 8.5 cents per kWh) $135.49 $119.85
Full Load (including graphics)
Power consumption 342 W 269 W
Consumption per year 2995 kWh 2356 kWh
Cost per year (at 8.5 cents per kWh) $254.58 $200.26
Full Load (without graphics)
Power consumption 295 W 228 W
Consumption per year 2584 kWh 1997 kWh
Cost per year (at 8.5 cents per kWh) $219.64 $169.75
Your chart doesn't even say what processors are being compared. If this was 3-4 years ago, the Prescott (PresHOTT) Intel P4's sucked a lot of juice.
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Here's the Tomshardware article I found:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/truth-pc-power-consumption,1707-7.html
(http://img.tomshardware.com/us/2007/10/19/the_truth_about_pc_power_consumption/power-system-power.gif)
(http://img.tomshardware.com/us/2007/10/19/the_truth_about_pc_power_consumption/power-3dmarkpcmark-average.gif)
(http://img.tomshardware.com/us/2007/10/19/the_truth_about_pc_power_consumption/power-3dmarkpcmark-wh.gif)
"Here are the facts from our test results:
Power consumption must not only be looked from a minimum and maximum power consumption standpoint, but must be tracked using applications and benchmarks that truly simulate PC use over time. Performance and energy efficiency are closely related, and you cannot have ideal energy efficiency without a certain level of performance.
The Athlon 64 X2 system we used consumed more energy than the Core 2 Duo E6400 machine Compare Prices on Core 2 Duo E6400, whether it was idle, running our power consumption benchmarks, or under maximum load. I want to make clear that faster Athlon processors would look better, but they would also require more power. The same applies for faster Core 2 processors.
The Core 2 Duo E6400 system completed the SYSmark 2007 Preview run 14 minutes earlier than the Athlon 64 X2 5000+. As a consequence, the Intel system went back to an idle state earlier, which of course results in considerably less total power consumed. During the same time, the AMD system had to stay at a higher activity level for a longer period of time, which eventually meant that it required as much as 50% more power than the Intel system! "
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The intel processors come with a heatsink and fan. Many buy aftermarket coolers. I didn't. I'm using the stock Intel units and my CPU idles at 27-28C and runs at 36-38C under load. Max recommended operating temp is just over 70C.
Here's what the stock unit looks like:
(http://flourishcomputer.com/products/desktop/desktop_right/fan/intel775fan.gif)
Im familiour with that fan from the build I did a few weeks ago.
Isnt that bad once you figure out how it goes on.
HELL of alot better then the ones Im used to.
That machine was a bit loud. but Im thinking it was the PSU fan.
Wasnt sure if the CPU came with the fan though.
Past experience is some do.some dont
I'll possibly be ordering the CPU as early as next week.
The Job Im doing tomorrow is going to bring me some pretty decent money.
Soon as the check clears.....
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Drediock,
if you need a fan for it I have an extra fan and heat sink that came with my E6850, since I bought an after market that I'm using. I don't know if it would work, maybe one of the tech guys here could say for sure. Your welcome to it if you want it.
Lambo
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Hi All,
On the memory compatibility issues I would like to point out something w/ the P35 chipset:
This chipset was designed to optimize usage of DDR2 800 series memory running around 1.8v so the compatibility w/ the P35 chipset is much, much better. The rest of the compatibility issues will lay w/ the mobo makers choice of parts, quality of manufacture & quality of BIOS used when OC'ing.
The majority of mem incompatibility is when DDR2 1066 series memory is used (which is basically overclocked DDR2 800 mem) due to primarily voltage & density disparities w/ the P35 chipset. I'm NOT saying that DDR2 1066 mem won't work, I'm saying that the potential for problems increases when trying to run DDR2 1066 mem vs DDR2 800 mem & the problems will further escalate when trying to OC w/ DDR2 1066 mem vs DDR2 800 mem. Just read all the reviews where mem problems occurred regardless of mobo make, model & see which type of DDR2 mem was being used--you'll see a 2 or 3-to-1 curve toward the DDR2 1066 series vs the DDR2 800 series. Nothing wrong w/ wanting to use faster mem but most mobo makers who give you some overclocking headroom limit this to DDR2 1200 (O.C.), so what good is getting DDR2 1066 mem then TRYING to OC it? IMHO of course, you're asking for a problem.
Just putting this out there to consider when laying out your components.
I know that there will be some disagreement w/ what I have posted but the statistics are showing this to be true.
Hope this helps also.
:)
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Thanks for the info. I'll cross the memory bridge when I come to it.
As usual all inputs and suggestions are welcome