Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: ridley1 on April 26, 2008, 12:54:35 PM
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It's just that I find it weird that Germany only had the two frontline fighters.... the 109 and 190. Or is this just because that's all that we've heard about....?
In comparison to what the other combatants in the war put on the front lines...this seems really weird. Can someone care to enlightne me?
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There were at least 2-3 variants designed by Messerschmitt, that I know of, to replace the 109, the Me209 and the Me309. Neither were found to be of any great leap in performance from the original 109, so the project didn't go forward. As far as I know, the 190 might never have made it either had it not been using the BMW 801 radial engine; the RLM was very worried about having the production capacity to produce the DB-601/605 for 2 frontline fighters.
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Both the 109 and the 190 were very successful fighters. That helps to explain your question. When frontline aircraft underperform, it creates a need for new ones. Moreover, both were constantly upgraded throughout the war to be competitive with allied designs.
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Both the 109 and the 190 were very successful fighters. That helps to explain your question. When frontline aircraft underperform, it creates a need for new ones. Moreover, both were constantly upgraded throughout the war to maintain their superiority over allied designs.
:aok :rock
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And....lots of variants as well as high production numbers of the 109 especially.
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If the germans had only been that smart with their tanks. They should have stuck with fewer designs and made lots more of them.. especially the tank destroyers without moving turrets. Far too much resources was spent making the next uber tanks when they would prolly have been better off making alot more STUGs with perhaps some slight modifications to keep up.
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Hmm ... let's see.
Bf 109
Fw 190
Bf 110
Me 210/410
Ju 88C/G
Do 217J/N
Me 163
Me 262
He 219
He 162
Ta 152
Just from the top of my head. I'm sure I've missed some...
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Calling some of those fighters is really pushing it ;)
Anywho, i think i understood that the original poster had in mind.
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Well, we can always argue over the definition of a fighter, but if only single engined day-fighters count the British only produced three. Spitfire, Hurricane and Typhoon/Tempest. America stands out by building a large variety of fighters, but then they had production capacity to waste. :)
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Japan had a nice lineup too
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Production was based on need.
As the the war developed, the need for the Germans was to stop the Allied bombing offensive, thus planes that were faster and carried larger armament. This can be seen clearly in the development of the 109's over time, as well as (although to a lesser degree) the 190's through the Ta-152 and finally the 262 and 163 as intercepters.
The allies on the other hand, particularily the US in the European front, were concerned with range, speed and altitude as bomber escorts as can be seen in the development of the P-47's and P-51's.
The British were concerned with homeland defense which was epitimized by the Spitfire.
Similar need based development can bee seen through all the counties that participated in the war (Russia with exeptional low altitude planes to repel Germany's ground offensive for instance).
If the needs changed, then there would have been more development but in Germany's case in particular, the ME's were able to evolve to fit the need and the production facilities were already in place. There are considerable differences between the 109E-4 and the 109K-4 (or the 163 or 262). They aren't even close to the same plane. A true tribute to Willy Messerschmitt's design genious.
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Hmm ... let's see.
Bf 109
Fw 190
Bf 110
Me 210/410
Ju 88C/G
Do 217J/N
Me 163
Me 262
He 219
He 162
Ta 152
Just from the top of my head. I'm sure I've missed some...
I just want say that you've forgotten the fw 160 :D
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oh i have forgot some :uhoh
All german fighters:
Focke-Wulf Fw 190
Focke-Wulf Ta 152
Heinkel He 162
Messerschmitt Bf 109
Messerschmitt Me 163
Focke-Wulf Fw 187
Focke-Wulf Ta 154
Heinkel He 219 „Uhu“
Messerschmitt Bf 110
Messerschmitt Me 210
Messerschmitt Me 262
Messerschmitt Me 410
so that are all
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Well ... the Fw 187 never saw any service though. ;)
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I think I remember seeing that cited as a PROBLEM that contributed to the demise of the Luftwaffe--relying so heavily on the 109 and 190 airframes: while the Allies would develop something new and purpose-built to suit their purposes, the Germans instead modified an existing airframe, but while they were still good fighters you can only push an airframe design to do so much and that handicaps you.
The Germans had some INCREDIBLE aircraft designs, so that's not to take away from their engineering capability, but for whatever reason the majority of their production, with some exceptions, went into modifying the 109s and 190s to do the same job.
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Only way they could keep up with allied production (well ... they still couldn't keep up). One of the great benefits of the 109 was that it was cheap and producible. Some people like to see the 109 as an example of superior German engineering, but in reality it was a flying VolksWagen. With slave labour the Germans could make about ten 109's for the price of one P-51D (1940 currency conversion). The 109G series reflects this the most with numerous simplifications in production over the F model. Many of which compromised performance like the fixed tail wheel, removal of radiator boundary layer bypass ducts, the use of heavier wood rather than aluminium in some parts (like the tail) etc.
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Someone's been watching too much History Channel.... :rofl
I can't believe that no one has mentioned pilot skill. By 1943 many of Germany's core pilots had been lost. By 1944, about the time that the improved allied fighters like the P-47D and P-51D came into service, most of Germany's core pilots were dead. Allied pilots in aircraft like the P-47D and P-51D had the great opportunity to club a bunch of new, inexperienced pilots who didn't have a clue as to what they were doing. Yes, there were exceptions, but to attribute the allied air victory to aircraft quality over pilot skill is wrong (numerical superiority is worth mentioning too, they didn't have ENY).
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If the needs changed, then there would have been more development but in Germany's case in particular, the ME's were able to evolve to fit the need and the production facilities were already in place. There are considerable differences between the 109E-4 and the 109K-4 (or the 163 or 262). They aren't even close to the same plane. A true tribute to Willy Messerschmitt's design genious.
I always thought the genius of the 109 was the fact they stuck as much horsepower as available in the airframe...even a brick with enough thrust is no longer a brick, its a hot fighter. Love those German engines...but imagine what you would get it if you put a Jumo 213's horsepower in a P-51! That, and maybe the slats are a fairly clever alternative to the Spit's wing-tip washout for less dangerous stalls. Am I missing something else?
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Oh yeah, one more thing that's no modeled in AH: Fuel-injection vs. carburators (not talking about Spit/Hurri1) / prop pitch and mixture controls... If these engine components were modeled the engineering of German aircraft would really shine compared to their allied counterparts.
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Oh yeah, one more thing that's no modeled in AH: Fuel-injection vs. carburators (not talking about Spit/Hurri1) / prop pitch and mixture controls... If these engine components were modeled the engineering of German aircraft would really shine compared to their allied counterparts.
Yep. This is the only thing I envy about Il2 (the game).
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On the other hand, most test pilot records I've read indicate that the automated engine controls, while much simpler to operate, took a lot of control away from the pilot.
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Focke-Wulf Fw 187
Focke-Wulf Ta 154
The Ta 154 never even got past the prototype stage.
The Fw 187 never saw combat
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The Luftwaffe pilot cadre did not suffer critical losses in 1943. It was during the spring of 1944 that they suffered catastrophic losses. Actually the Luftwaffe won significant victories against the 8th Army Air Force in 1943.
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Sort of thought that they bled the whole time with some bad months, and then they almost collapsed, seperating the heard from greenhorn to experts with very little between...in 1943/44..
my cents.
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The Ta 154 never even got past the prototype stage.
The Fw 187 never saw combat
The Ta 154 got past the prototype stage. Even the serial production was started but they soon found out the replacement glue they were forced to use (the original manufacturer was bombed-out) was not as strong as the original one and it quickly corroded the wood so the whole project had to be canned.
The Fw 187 did saw combat - they were used to defend the Focke-Wulf factory in Bremen during the initial phase of WWII in 1939 and 1940. Rumors they had some victories were not confirmed.
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Some people like to see the 109 as an example of superior German engineering, but in reality it was a flying VolksWagen.
Although it pains me to admit it being a 109 freak... I agree. :(
I dont remember where, exactly, but I read an article a few months back written by a guy who flew in a then newly restored bird (think it was a G6) for the first time. Just about every word of the "review" was great - awesome descriptions of the smallest details and what it was like to fly, etc, etc but he kept on hinting at its build quality indirectly - more than once mentioning how shocked he was by how much the A/C seemed to shake, rattle and squeak all around him, as though it were a sum of parts rather than a single, forged tool.
Now, I suppose its difficult to draw a truly accurate assessment because the A/C was originally built 60+ years ago in the first place and, secondly, the quality of the restoration is unknown.
Be that as it may, the build quality of the 109 vs. the 190 is fairly well documented by the pilots who flew them, again in an slightly indirect sense. IIRC, Gunther Rall was particularly outspoken, in post-war interviews, in favor of the 190 for several reasons, most of them aggregating to what we think of today (or at least, 10-20 years ago, in the automotive sense) as "German engineering." The single piece wing of the 190 was probably one of the most significant factors in these assessments as any perceived lack of structural rigidity in the 109 would only be pronounced by the two-piece wing design.
Arguments for both cases, I suppose. Hell, Ive read/seen plenty of Allied pilot interviews where Jug drivers who were forced to convert to the 51 late in the war couldn't say a single positive thing about the Mustang and long for their 47 the whole time. Each to his own. I guess when youre getting shot at with real bullets, strength and survivability take priority over an extra 5MPH.
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"On the other hand, most test pilot records I've read indicate that the automated engine controls, while much simpler to operate, took a lot of control away from the pilot."
Sure, and I have heard that many American pilots did not how to adjust their engine properly resulting in poor fuel economy (and what else). I wonder if some of those guys were the same who commented over the lack of control over engine settings in German rides? :P
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Yes i'm a good tank, but that statement was true, they designed bigger, badder tanks that they really couldn't produce. German numbers for production stayed the same throughout the war until the Ruhr was taken but the bomber offensive was i hate to say but more of a waste of lives and planes. German plane production was never really halted because of the ingenious way they built the planes. Instead of one big building, were the y produced everything, it went from one place to another so production would only slow never stop. Bak to the tanks tho, the Stug III and the IV were good tanks, not in the standard of the hetzer but good tanks. Now the hetzer should have been one they produced earlier and with more numbers. It was a great tank, strong, accurate, and reliable.
well the bombing was alse to demorilize the enemy, wich it did. The production rate did decrease
and about the tanks, well I herd the russians got so deperate to kill the tiger that they would ram them. So are you sure about the better tank things. Well also the sherman was fairly good in combat aginst the stug and panzer 4. It was the tigers and panthers that gave em a run for there money