Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: teufl on April 28, 2008, 06:37:07 PM
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OK IM not a platinum or gold or silver member, but here goes, we need tank destroyers in this game. The russians and germans really had alot of variety and actually specialized in this field. A SU85 would probably be the best all around(since we do not have a t 34/85) in this game at present time. A su 100 or 122 would be a perk vehicle and would make the firefly obsolete. Also a jagdpanther or (heaven forbid) jagdtiger would make it the gv of choice and also perk. So we have the cz 38, a 75mm open turret vehicle, or is my memory wrong and too lazy to look it up a 75 mm panzer III? (jagdpanzer?) Opinions welcome but usually not tolerated(S)
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Throw in the Su-152 and I'm all for it. :aok
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We dont need the "best" TD of WWII in order for it to find a place in AH. I also agree we need a TD to help keep the tanks in check, but the M10, M18, or Marder III would all do just fine with a few bit of help from the programmers and this is what I mean by that: allow the gunner full zoom-able view of the battlefield from over the top of the open turret, but keep that view seperate from the actual zoom-able gun view with the distance markers. Allow the TD little if any HE rounds so it effectness vs anything but a gv is minimal.
The open turreted TD would be sitting ducks for aircraft to pounce on. The triangle "checks-n-balances" of the gv game would be complete. Right now, nothing dominates a tank except air power or another tank. If that pesky T34 or Tiger keeps escaping the airstrikes... send in the 50mph M18 and watch for a flank shot kill. :D
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Thank you for your response, and I agree with most you said. I do not mean best as in best vehicle, but maybe best for game. Marder III had the 76 mm? I do believe a td would be a great spawn camper(like we need more) and I also agree a low HE load would make it what it is, a vehicle only for 1 purpose, kill tanks. I believe the firefly is pretty much that right now, as its HE rounds pretty much suck. M 18 Hellcat would probably be used like the m8 is now, harrassement and to save VH bases with VH disabled. I also agree that an open turret arrangement would not be very viable in the attack capabilities of most of the aeroplanes available in AH. But as the low profile might be of some significance and the sloped armout of most russian TD s would make them pretty unkillable, until the AH modelers have there way with them<S>.
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I think the TDs that had no turret would be harder to use correctly than most people think. On the offense especially. Imagine never being able to turn the engine off because if you do and the enemy is not within a 30 degree arc of your centerline, even less on some TDs, you have to start up and turn to aim. A turretted TD like the US gear would be different of course but then people would complain that it is just another American piece of equipment.
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well personally i would like some american tds, such as the m10 or the m18
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We dont need the "best" TD of WWII in order for it to find a place in AH. I also agree we need a TD to help keep the tanks in check, but the M10, M18, or Marder III would all do just fine with a few bit of help from the programmers and this is what I mean by that: allow the gunner full zoom-able view of the battlefield from over the top of the open turret, but keep that view seperate from the actual zoom-able gun view with the distance markers. Allow the TD little if any HE rounds so it effectness vs anything but a gv is minimal.
The open turreted TD would be sitting ducks for aircraft to pounce on. The triangle "checks-n-balances" of the gv game would be complete. Right now, nothing dominates a tank except air power or another tank. If that pesky T34 or Tiger keeps escaping the airstrikes... send in the 50mph M18 and watch for a flank shot kill. :D
was thinkin same thing :D :O :aok thank you for doin all the typing for me smokin :rock
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taking a gunner would make sence in a TD
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Didn't you have to aim by moveing the tank head-on with the target?
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Marder III had the 76 mm?
Only the initial Marder II (Sd.Kfz. 132) and Marder III (Sd.Kfz. 139) used captured soviet 76mm guns (probably rebored to 75mm). Later Marder II (Sd.Kfz. 131) and Marder III (Sd.Kfz. 138) use the german 75mm PaK 40. All of them except the Marder III Ausf. M (Sd.Kfz. 138) were open to the rear and open-topped, the latter was only open-topped.
SU-85 or long-barreled StuG III would be a nice addition, both were produced in large numbers and killed lots of enemy tanks.
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Didn't you have to aim by moveing the tank head-on with the target?
thats the point of having a gunner....and vox, except that the gunner will command the tank.
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thats the point of having a gunner....and vox, except that the gunner will command the tank.
then what would you do? drive it?
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Best TDs would be:
Jagdpanzer IV with 7.5cm StuK 42- Replacement of the StuG III fully enclosed,low profile, good armour, think top speed was around 20MPH.
Hetzer (Jagdpanzer 38T) - again fully enclosed, low profile, and good armour speed was in the 20MPH range again.
M18 Hellcat - for reasons stated above, superb speed, good gun, low profile.
and to give the brits something decent would be the Archer but its a rear facing gun and the same as the fireflys. Only problem is i dont think it was fully enclosed.
Just my picks anyway. They wouldnt be super powerful but they would preform good and add new GVs ive wanted in for a long time.
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Bring in the M-10. :aok
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Archer would definately be a poece of work to deploy....hmmm backwards are you sure it isnt french? :P
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Archer would be a neat base defender..attacker might aswell drive in reverse lol.
Not sure why so many want the M10 in game. Its big, thin turret armour (303s or hell even a .45 from a chute floating down from above it could hurt it) Id have to vote (if HT did that again) for a closed top TD, and not a lot of US TDs were closed tops, then again they wernt the ones without air supremacy and lacked the close combat experiance the germans had to face with the russians with their early open top designs. Offtopic i wouldnt mind seeing a canadian build Ram tank in game one day (even though numbers were low and the hull was used as an APC later on) Either way though id like to see some TDs in one day.
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then what would you do? drive it?
Well, yes, I have 2 PC at home and with a friend we had lots of fun being each other gunner
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Archer would definately be a poece of work to deploy....hmmm backwards are you sure it isnt french? :P
Check this french tank....not something to drive backward with
(http://www.chars-francais.net/new/images/stories/photos/fcm-f1_01.jpg)
It had a 90mm and a 47mm, with 4x7.5mm....in 1940
http://www.chars-francais.net/new/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=723&Itemid=36 (http://www.chars-francais.net/new/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=723&Itemid=36)
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Check this french tank....not something to drive backward with
Bah - looks like heavy and very slow.
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Bah - looks like heavy and very slow.
It is, 150 tons and 24km/h. It never went into production thougt.
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The french had the char B(1939-40) :devil a 47 mm in top turret and a 75 mm howitzer in side sponson, gave the poor german panzer I and II s a tough go, but really to unwieldy and slow. The above tank looks like a huge copy of a russian monster, first glance i thought it was that russian machine, I believe it was t 100, had like 1 76 mm guns and 2 45 mm in varouis front and rear turrets. I still believe the su-85 would be a good start and to see if the design itself would be adequately made for play. 30 degree gun movement and also commander and seperate gun sights. I belive it was close toped and had very good mobility based on a t34/76 chassis with a 85mm gun. It also had a tank commander mg and a spontoon mg. :devil
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im all in for a TD such as the jagdpanther
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OK IM not a platinum or gold or silver member, but here goes, we need tank destroyers in this game. The russians and germans really had alot of variety and actually specialized in this field. A SU85 would probably be the best all around(since we do not have a t 34/85) in this game at present time. A su 100 or 122 would be a perk vehicle and would make the firefly obsolete. Also a jagdpanther or (heaven forbid) jagdtiger would make it the gv of choice and also perk. So we have the cz 38, a 75mm open turret vehicle, or is my memory wrong and too lazy to look it up a 75 mm panzer III? (jagdpanzer?) Opinions welcome but usually not tolerated(S)
No offense to burst your bubble, isn't this thread suppose to be in the Wishlist? It sounds like a request for another tank. Should post it on Wishlist, im sure someone might agree. ;)
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Towable artillery..
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The french had the char B(1939-40) :devil a 47 mm in top turret and a 75 mm howitzer in side sponson, gave the poor german panzer I and II s a tough go, but really to unwieldy and slow.
You would be hard pressed to define the hull mounted howitzer as mounted in a "side sponson". It had no side-to-side traverse at all, and most definitely stuck out the front of the tank. Please see the picture of the char B1 here (http://www.military.cz/panzer/tanks/france/charon_b1/index_en.htm) or here (http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_vehicles_adv.php?op=getvehicles&pic_op=picture&vehiclesX=13) and contrast with a true "sponson mount" on the M3 Lee here (http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_vehicles_adv.php?op=getvehicles&pic_op=picture&vehiclesX=184) or the M3 "Grant" version here (http://www.military.cz/panzer/tanks/usa/m3a5/index_en.htm).
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Towable artillery..
yes, yes and ... yes :aok
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Not sure we need another tank killer as the only perked tank we have ( the Tiger dies with one hit ) from the non perked tank the firefly and also the M-4. <S>
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We need the M10C Achiles(same gun a firefly)
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I would go with a SU-100, SU-85s would be cool too though... (Bleh its a crime that theres no T-34/85s...)
SU-152s would be awesome too, talk about town killers!
M-18s would be nice to have, great speed on those things ;)
Stugs would be nice, though maybe something with a better gun like a Jpz-IV which has the same main gun as a Panther.
Jagdtigers would be vicious!
Hetzers would be fun to have! They're so cute :)
Opened topped TDs would be fun to have too, like Marders, and Nashorns.
And a Japanese 150mm armed Horo just for the heck of it! :P
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The Stug makes the most sence. The lesser versions could be used in EW as well .The above mentioned TD's would only be in LW which to me seems like a lot of effort for one arena. Just my thought.
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Ahh true now that you mention it, Stugs would make alot of sense.
Trying to think of other TDs besides towed guns, Zis-30 would be fun for early war. SU-122 and SU-152 would be availible for mid and late, along with M-18s, Marders, Nashords, even Fedinands/Elephants would be availible mid-war but thats kinda overkill with the armor they had...
(http://grayknight.narod.ru/Ferds_Kursk_43/232-01.jpg)
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no,no,no,America had a great tank deatroyer.It was the Hellcat Tank Destroyer,it had a Sherman chassi,75.mm self propelled cannon,and could kill a panzer in 1 shot.
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no,no,no,America had a great tank deatroyer.It was the Hellcat Tank Destroyer,it had a Sherman chassi,75.mm self propelled cannon,and could kill a panzer in 1 shot.
Actually it had a 76mm gun.
I agree, the M18 TD would be a great addition to the game, having a tank that can travel at 55mph would give you so many more options, say the VH is down at a base, you can up it at the next closest base and run it over there and get there really fast.
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no,no,no,America had a great tank deatroyer.It was the Hellcat Tank Destroyer,it had a Sherman chassi,75.mm self propelled cannon,and could kill a panzer in 1 shot.
(http://M36 JACKSON) was probably better - built on the M4 SHERMAN chassis it was fast and it carried a 90mm "Tiger Killer" main gun based on the standard US ARMY 90mm AA Gun.
Though not as fast as the M18 HELLCAT - the JACKSON could drop almost any Axis tank with the first shot.
BTY, the HELLCAT was an original design, it wasn't based in any way on the M4 SHERMAN.
:salute
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Ok, I am becoming convinced that we need a TD or two or even three.
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(Don't know what happened to my pic from the above post - here it is again)
M36 JACKSON
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7690/119m36medlv6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
The original M36 has the same chassis (in photo) as the M10 WOLVERINE TD - the M36A1 (I believe) had the "exact" same slab-side hull and chassis as the M4 SHERMAN (that we have in game) with the bow 30. cal MG - that is the one I vote for.
:salute
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I say, fix up the GVs we already have and seriously work on the damage model before new GVs. That is my 2 cents.
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I say, fix up the GVs we already have and seriously work on the damage model before new GVs. That is my 2 cents.
That gets my vote too. The whole ground physics model needs an overhaul.
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I think the SdKfz 164 Nashorn or Rhino would be the way to go Its equipped with a pack 43 88mm main gun.
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerjager-hornisse-nashorn-sd-kfz-164.htm
The only draw back is its lightly armored. Which given the fact of it has the 88 mm main gun, it seems like a fare trade. It uses the PzKpfw IV chassis so you wouldn’t have to re invent the wheel either.
But then again I’ve always been a fan of German armor.
Just my 2cents.
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no,no,no,America had a great tank deatroyer.It was the Hellcat Tank Destroyer,it had a Sherman chassi,75.mm self propelled cannon,and could kill a panzer in 1 shot.
It would only be available in late war. Now why even bother with a new gv if it will only be in one arena. What HT should do is create a gv only arena . Maybe with a limited amount of ground attack planes, Il2, Stuka, A20. Would make for fun dogfights as well with those planes.I think that arena would be used quite a bit. Just my thought.
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It would only be available in late war. Now why even bother with a new gv if it will only be in one arena. What HT should do is create a gv only arena . Maybe with a limited amount of ground attack planes, Il2, Stuka, A20. Would make for fun dogfights as well with those planes.I think that arena would be used quite a bit. Just my thought.
I agree with the gv only arena,and late war is 2 arenas not 1,unless ur talking about TT.
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Maybe the coming T34/85 is the precursor to having the SU85. Didn't the SU85 use a T34 hull and running gear? Fix the turret and do the artwork for a fixed turret and it would be done.
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Hmmm maybe, though i wish we got a SU-100 instead, SU-85s, SU-100s and SU-122s all used the T-34 chasis.
Though the SU-122 was more a artillery support tank rather than a TD.
Though those 122mm howitzers still pack a punch :)
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All,
I have created a Wish List thread for adding an Assault Gun to the game, along with an outline as to why this might lead to interesting gameplay options. Serious and thoughtful comments are solicited.
Go here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,243156.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,243156.0.html)
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wow sorry guys... ive never heard of tank destroyers before... i thought thats what other tanks were for... whats the difference? and i never saw one in all the movies and history channel ive seen...
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TDs don't have much armor but are a little faster.(the fastest would be the M18 Hellcat)And just because they aren't in the movies or most TV shows doesn't mean they don't exist.Watch Tank Overhaul and they might show you the M18.
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wow sorry guys... ive never heard of tank destroyers before... i thought thats what other tanks were for... whats the difference? and i never saw one in all the movies and history channel ive seen...
American TDs
http://www.squadron.com/ItemDetails.asp?item=ss2036&Submit3=Go
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OK IM not a platinum or gold or silver member, but here goes, we need tank destroyers in this game. The russians and germans really had alot of variety and actually specialized in this field. A SU85 would probably be the best all around(since we do not have a t 34/85) in this game at present time. A su 100 or 122 would be a perk vehicle and would make the firefly obsolete. Also a jagdpanther or (heaven forbid) jagdtiger would make it the gv of choice and also perk. So we have the cz 38, a 75mm open turret vehicle, or is my memory wrong and too lazy to look it up a 75 mm panzer III? (jagdpanzer?) Opinions welcome but usually not tolerated(S)
Teufl,with a post like that,you just went from "Zinc" to "Gold". Well posted! :aok :salute
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Watch Tank Overhaul and they might show you the M18.
Ive seen that one, this vet gets to command his hellcat again after the resto. just awesome :aok
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Everyone is forgetting one thing about the American TD's. All the games current main battle tanks can kill them one shot . It wouldn't be much different from a Firefly with excepting of speed. The SU-88, SU-100 or German Jadpanther would at least have a little more battlefield survivability than an M-10 or M-18 plus a lot lower profile.
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I don't think that country really matters in the GV field right now because none of the countries have fleshed out sets. The best one is probably the US with the M3 M8 and Firefly(which really is pretty much british) the americans dont really have a true tank that is purely american. So give me a gv from any country :rock
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A few of those easy to kill french tanks need added. Don`t need to be a great big tank that kills everything it comes up against. The junky ones can be fun to, like the m8 is.
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I don't think that country really matters in the GV field right now because none of the countries have fleshed out sets. The best one is probably the US with the M3 M8 and Firefly(which really is pretty much british) the americans dont really have a true tank that is purely american. So give me a gv from any country :rock
What do you call a Sherman. The Firefly is all American with exception of the gun. The 76mm HV American gun was almost as capable as the British 19 pounder. The problem was there were only 100 or so Shermans that landed at Normandy with this gun. Also the HVAP rounds were few and always at a shortage . There is also the Pershing. Problem with that is it came late in the war.
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well personally i would like some american tds, such as the m10 or the m18
Yeah guys, we just had a thread in wishlist for TD's, try to keep that one going :aok
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What do you call a Sherman. The Firefly is all American with exception of the gun. The 76mm HV American gun was almost as capable as the British 19 pounder. The problem was there were only 100 or so Shermans that landed at Normandy with this gun. Also the HVAP rounds were few and always at a shortage . There is also the Pershing. Problem with that is it came late in the war.
First, it is the 17 pounder, not 19.
Second, no, the US 76mm was not comparable to the 17 pounder by a long shot (no pun intended). I am sure sources will vary somewhat, but the quick/easy one I use shows the 17 pounder penetration at 1000 meters is 115mm with standard AP vs. 83mm with the US M1A2 76mm gun. True, HVAP get the penetration of the US gun to 137mm -- but the APDS round for the 17 pounder moves its penetration to 185mm. The 17 pounder is better than the US gun by at least 35%.
The US gun is more on par with the PzkwIV(H)'s 75mm gun.
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Well yes with the 17 pounder over the 76, by quite a bit. The US tankers were begging for 1 per tank regiment(which was the standard for the Brits) but were well DENIED! :o However we havent talked about the m36, the m10 with a 90 mm gun, well AH is a plane game, BUT how many times you been takin out by 1 or 2 shots and say Heck didnt even see the guy. So TDs are very important to the game. But with the 37 mm IL2, heck open topped tanks, which we have none of(not talkin bout the super WW or ostie, it would be a matter of how they are modeled and all TD's had 50 cal aa in turret. :t And TY for the move to Gold, just rather fly then be in here<S>
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Stug would be nice to have. :aok
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Throw in the Su-152 and I'm all for it. :aok
The Su-152 was a self propelled gun not a tank destroyer.
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First, it is the 17 pounder, not 19.
Second, no, the US 76mm was not comparable to the 17 pounder by a long shot (no pun intended). I am sure sources will vary somewhat, but the quick/easy one I use shows the 17 pounder penetration at 1000 meters is 115mm with standard AP vs. 83mm with the US M1A2 76mm gun. True, HVAP get the penetration of the US gun to 137mm -- but the APDS round for the 17 pounder moves its penetration to 185mm. The 17 pounder is better than the US gun by at least 35%.
The US gun is more on par with the PzkwIV(H)'s 75mm gun.
according to the allied gun penatration chart I have it's comprable up to 2000 yards then it falls off, but tank battles on the westen front were done at closer ranges than on the Russian stepps .
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Not intending to steal the thread, but wouldn't self propelled artie be an idea?
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I think most were used for just that and not intended to kill tanks.
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Not intending to steal the thread, but wouldn't self propelled artie be an idea?
Not so much "arty" as much as a self propelled cannon. The StG III would be a good example of this. IT could fire the German 75mm HE shell with very similar effects as our current US LVT4 w/ the 75mm cannon. The Priest (or Saxton), and StG III are all good examples of direct fire self propelled cannons.
The indirect fire can get a bit complicated, those who have worked with the Sdkf 251 and its rockets will know what I am talking about.
The thing about the TD that would bring a very different angle to this game is SPEED and firepower. I'm not talking about the 35mph T34/xx, I'm talking of a M18 Hellcat going 50mph+ with a cannon equal to the Pzr. Stop and think how often your tank gets knocked out via one shot. It wouldnt be much different in a M18, cept for its ability to shoot-n-move better. With the way the T34/xx turret is made of cheese... why not take the M18 and be able to evade and menouver that much better?
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M 18 is a definate shoe in but also the su series TDs by the ruskys. The su85 outmodeled now we have the t34/85 but the su 122 or su100? The jsu 152 was close support so....... Maybe the jsu 2, damn thats a fine gv or my god the jsu3 122 mm cannon 4 inched sloped on glacias plate. A FARGIN KILLER! OOOOPs was talkin tanks again :confused: Any russian gv would be good from bt 7(early) to kv 1. JSU 1 JSU2 JSU3 all are killers over what we have now. But the american pershing would be good also m5 stuart as recon. Oh yeah 50mm puma armoured car that would be inetersting.