Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Special Events General => Topic started by: jordi on October 29, 2001, 08:31:00 AM
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Is it at all possible ? Not even sure if AH has the plane set or map for it - but it is a good idea to think about.
Mike "Jordi" Bowman - DAMNED
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Jordi, you'll have to break out of the AW mind mould - we have a terrain editor! You make your own map, or bribe some one to do it for you. Take a look in the H2H scene, there's a wealth of active map makers. Take a look at the "arena settings" area of the clipboard, and play with it off line or in H2H to get a feel for what's available for a CM - much, much more than you or I are used to.
Wind layers, clouds, night fall, cloud over target, may be no clipboard map so for the first time you'll have to navigate properly by compass bearing and elapsed time etc.
There's a wealth of opertunity that we AW'ers have only dreamt of for the last three years. Check it out, get a feel for it.
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I never have been a fan of a Pearl Harbor Scenario. It was a one-sided sneak attack. To make it anything else wouldn't be a scenario, but a Fantasy.
..and Yeah, I know Air warrior has had a Pearl Harbor scenario, which, in my opinion is tacky.
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"..and Yeah, I know Air warrior has had a Pearl Harbor scenario, which, in my opinion is tacky.
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hblair
The ASSASSINS
hblair's Realplayer Movies
"Eat them taters" -hblair "
It was more of a WHAT IF than a true Historical recreation. If it had been a true recreation it would go over as well as if we had the Marianis Turkey Shoot !
And the 200+ a night participants enjoyed that scenario itself - enough so that we were able to re-run again with the same high numbers the following year.
All who were involved spent a lot of time and effort to make it work and to make it enoyable to those in it and to RESPECT those that gave the ultimate sacrifice to thier countries on that day.
I do not belive I heard anyone involved from top to bottom ever call it Tacky.
Your milage my vary.
Mike "Jordi" Bowman
PS - Seeker - I just wanted to throw out the idea to see if anyone had thought of it or tried it yet. I do not know enough about AH or how to build maps and all that is required to even think I could pull it off. Maybe someone else more qualified could though.
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Jordi,
To answer your question about plane set .. no right now AH really doesn't have the plane set for it. There is no P40 of F4F on the U.S. side. And on the Japanese side there are no Vals and Kates .. so I think it would be really hard to try to recreate a "what if" Pearl Harbor scenario.
As for whether its a tacky or not .. I don't believe it is. It was a "what if" scenario that tried to give both sides a little bit of the feel of that historical event while giving both sides a chance at success.
The first time it ran we saw exactly what could have happened if the Japaneses had screwed up and somebody recognized their incoming attack force. The U.S. did spot then (due to a rogue pilot getting spotted by a U.S. patrol plane) and the whole U.S. aiforce had time to get airborne instead of being shredded on the ground.
Basically every scenario run is a what if scenario and all could be tacky if handle incorrectly. The future TOD is a prime example .. Clearing the Phillipines. During its time period the Japanese should have very few NIK2s, Ki-61s and all of their planes should be not in top condition, supplies are short, and their pilots are not first class (most first class pilots were dead). This is what it was historically at that time .. but for game play and what if the scenario has to be balanced out so that Japanese have a chance otherwise nobody would want to do it.
If you find it tacky thats fine and personal opinion. If you create a what if that is gives a chance to both sides and have no problem in playing with a what if .. again that is a personal opinion and decision. That is just my two cents and now I will turn over the soap box to somebody else.
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My first reply was alil abrupt, sorry. I just don't see how a Pearl Harbor Scenario could be like, say, Midway, where both sides were set up for battle, and it could have easily gone either way. Pearl Harbor could not have gone either way. The US had no warning. They didn't know there were Japanese Carriers anywhere near. How could you make this winnable for the US side without changing a big chunk of history and warning them (let squads of P40's get airborne before the japanese planes got there). When you do that, it's just fantasy from there on out.
I remember a year or two ago reading AGW sometime in early December, a few threads with facts about Pearl Harbor Day, people giving veterans accounts of the day, etc. Very Somber.
And another thread an Air Warrior guy started trying to drum up pilots for their "encore" run of the "Pearl Harbor" scenario. Rubbed me the wrong way, as well as some other people there. In my opinion Pearl Harbor is just something that you shouldn't make an airplane game out of. The US wasn't at war, defenseless. To try to change it so we "could fight back" is, hmm, dunno, just doesn't seem right to me. Then again, it could just be me...
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You're right about the Phillipines Ghstdncr. They are never going to be very accurate historically as far as wear and tear, etc.
Dunno, just seems to me that Pearl Harbor wasn't really a "battle" per say, but almost like a terrorist attack. Like I said, I might be the only one who feels this way. :)
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There is already a pearl map,i have it if you would like to look,All credit to whoever made it btw :)
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Hblair,
You're quite right with your objections to the "surprise attack"; but wouldn't that also be applicable to early war Blitzkrieg scenarios?
As I see it, the challenge for the CM is to come up with a "plot" that gives both sides a fighting chance. The challenge for the players is to see wether through better command or flying they can "beat" history.
After all, we all know Goering's errors in the BoB, if you concentrate on airbases the RAF should have no chance. Yet, many sucsessful scenarios have been run on the BoB in just about every flight sim ever published.
The bottom line is - will you have fun?
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It's just you and a few other people, hblair. Sorry if something like that would rub you the wrong way as you said, but if that's the case... simple solution is you just don't play the scenario if it ever comes to fruition. :) A lot of people would probably be interested in a "what if" scenario for PH, and the idea shouldn't be stomped out if a few people feel like it's a bad idea (for whatever reason.) There's too much of that tip-toeing around going on in the real world right now, we don't need it to be applied to a game we have fun in. :)
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I think the what if side of Pearl would be fun to do. We know how it turned out already. For a scenerio how aboutletting the radar controller actually get the warning msg to the base and fighter cover scramble to intercept the bombers. Let's see how the thing would play out that way.
I like the fact that with scenerios we can replay any day in WWII (if we have a planeset) and change the ending of the day. It doesn't matter which side wins now as long as the majority have fun! :)
As for Pearl it will take some time and a few more releases I believe until we see a planeset that is doable.
S!
Rocket
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Hblair,
Agreed there is just some things that never can be really factored in and some we don't want to. Such as restricting one side to older planes to such a degree they don't have a chance against the newer models.
As for Pearl Harbor .. yes, I can see how you would think it could be tacky. If it was setup under the exact same historical conditions I would agree that it would not only be tacky but not very fun (nobody wants to be massacred).
However, there were so many mistakes made, such as the Radar operators contact being mistaken for the B17s, that if just a couple of them did not happen the Japanese could have found it very different at Pearl Harbor than what happened historically.
Even with 20 minutes of warning all the ships could have been ready and armed. The AAA thrown up the USN during the first wave attack was very ineffective and organized. The AAA during the second wave attack was very fierce and organized.
Also the few planes that did get up off the ground did give a good showing for themselves. They were not just simply swepted out of the air. If there was more of a warning more planes could have gotten up from the U.S. bases and I think the Japanese would not have had such an easy time of it. Actually that was there biggest fear .. being detected and the U.S. getting its forces into the air.
Remember there was a radar contact that was ignored by orders of an officer and there also was a midget sub that tried to enter the harbor and was attacked by a U.S. destroyer (favorite site for some history is http://www.nationalgeographic.com/pearlharbor). (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/pearlharbor).) So many little things happened that if somebody just put two and two together or was more suspicous we could have had just a little more time to get our planes into the air and get the ships ready. I have read accounts that simple said that people thought we were going to go to war with the Japanese but they never expected an attack at Hawaii.
A Pearl Harbor "what if" scenario could be constructed around these things and was in AW. Basically if a patrol plane had spotted the enemy, if the U.S. forces when the sub was reported had been put on alert for possible enemy action, etc.
You might still disagree and find it tacky but I think a "what if" scenario of what if the U.S. forces had an extra 15 minutes to get airborne and prepared would be interesting.
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Then again as Rocket says until we get more of the historical planes (P40 - probably would never get P36, F4F, and the Vals and Kates) this is really an academic discussion.
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Originally posted by hblair:
I never have been a fan of a Pearl Harbor Scenario. It was a one-sided sneak attack. To make it anything else wouldn't be a scenario, but a Fantasy.
..and Yeah, I know Air warrior has had a Pearl Harbor scenario, which, in my opinion is tacky.
It was--as Jordi says--a "What if" kinda thing. Lot of fun nevertheless. We flew 6 frames total flying 3 for the allies and 3 for the japanese sides. Sure enough we took some serious lumps as the allies but I came out unscathed in my P-40 flying with Lugs' group. When we switched up we flew Kates O' Doom and laid waste to the fleet on Ford Island in the face of innumerable flaks! One frame we split our forces and took a round about loop north of the island looking for the Lexington. Our torps sent the Lady Lex and her pathetic escorts to the bottom.(We raked in some serious points for that one hehe) Authentic? Accurate? For the most part absolutely not. Fun? Youbetcha! My time flyin in any of the AW scenarios was always among my best memories of that game. I don't see why we couldn't do the same thing in here--taking it to another level! <S>
Drano
P.S. In every scenario I was a part of the great rally cry was always "KILL WESTY!" I'm sure you guys could all get on board something like that! :D
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KILL WESTY!
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Originally posted by GhstDncr:
KILL WESTY!
Now THAT didn't take long! :D
Drano
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To show what the event was:
Pearl Harbor Scenario (http://www.sc2000.net/~kmyers/pearl/index.htm)
Aub
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I was the IJN CO of a Pearl "recreation" back in Brand W. Wasn't a scenario per se. But as a recreation it was a lot of fun for both sides.
Allied arrived late, got to sit parked on runway in P40's untill they died. Once they died, they were clear to TRY to takeoff.
Allies were allowed multiple respawns for a fairly short period of time. IJN was under typical 1 life rules.
Surpriseingly enough I think about 6 got airbourne and managed to cause some chaos in the Kate & val ranks.
Overall we had about 200 in the arena for this one time event. I think we all had fun and there was nothing "tacky" about it.
Sometimes the hardest part of setting up a scenario are determining acurate victory conditions that let either side win.
Hopefully 1.09 will bring us the planes we need for Pacific carrier battles.
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Listen guys, I wasn't talking about the scenario being tacky. I was talking about you personally.
You Guys = Tacky
hblair = Not Tacky
Understand?
:D
Seriously, looks like I'm outvoted here. I must be wrrroo-. er uh wrrroonn..-.
Well, I wasn't right anyway.
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Oh!!! Why didn't you say so in the first place .. of course I am tacky. ;)
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Listen guys, I wasn't talking about the scenario being tacky. I was talking about you personally.
You Guys = Tacky
hblair = Not Tacky
Understand?
Seriously, looks like I'm outvoted here. I must be wrrroo-. er uh wrrroonn..-.
Well, I wasn't right anyway.
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Well to a degree we are ALL Tacky !
I just did not want you to dismiss out of hand the possibility of a good PH Scenario. Heck there were AW Scenarios that I did not participate in when I did not FEEL a real passion to participate - either not my plane types or geography, time frame . . .
I respect your opinion not to like a PH Scenario idea.
Everynes Milage varies !
Now hblair - what would the perfect sceanrio for YOU ? We can never have too many ideas.
Mike "Jordi" Bowman
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If we had the plane set and the terrain I would set it up right away as a Snapshot. :)
Would also do some "what if's". What if we had a patrol of P-40's airborne, what if the IJN aircraft were spotted 5 min out, what if the IJN CV was spotted by one of our CV's...
Lots of ways to have fun with this event. :)
Good suggestion Mike, just a matter of time.
I also would put hb in one of those IJN mini subs. ;)
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Ohhh well why didn't you say so Hblair!
err ok so you did, I guess, sorta, kinda late but ya got there eventaully. Hmmm kinda tacky actually, but shrug. :)
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Tacky huh? Well, according to some of my family this whole WW2 air combat flight simulation scene is tacky - my sister is horrified that I enjoy "bombing" and "killing" in this way. :)
As for Pearl Harbour, when we ran it in AW it was in two phases. Because the sides were uneven, we all switched sides for the second phase so that each team had a chance of being the attackers and the defenders.
This also gave each team's CO the opportunity to plan their own style of attack/defence, with some unusual results! Also, because each team had a go at both attacking and defending, both teams had an equal chance of winning overall.
Switch-side scenarios have been more popular this last year or so for this type of one-sided battle. Our (possibly) upcoming Ploesti scenario in AW is of this type and if we are able to go ahead, should be a lot of fun! :D
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You mean that the sides were "switched" in that the Japanese were allowed try their hand at being the defenders of the harbor? And the Americans played the attackers ?
No offense fellas, but thats kinda going a lil far isn't it? Swapping history just to make it interesting? Don't get me wrong, There's nothing wrong with doing that, but when ya do that, it certainly isn't exactly a "historical scenario", is it?
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Not sure if I understood your last post correctly hblair, so if I read it wrong please forgive.
Yes and no the sides were switch. The teams were switched not the actually forces. By this I mean the people who flew American planes flew them for (I think it was three frames). Then the teams switched and they flew Japaneses planes three frames.
So only the pilots switched what they were flying. Americans still defended Pearl Harbor and Japanese still attacked Pearl Harbor .. this was not changed. Just people/teams switched sides and flew the opposite planes.
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It became a common AW technique to allow sceanrios that were obviously unbalanced, such as the battle of Brittain. You did (for example) three frames as a Brit, and three frames as a Hun, and an aggregate score was produced.
This showed the side which had the most efficient command structure and superior tactics over time; and it engendered real unit forming as people trained to function as a unit for weeks leading up to a scenario.
A good example was Moon dog's P40 squad in the PH scenario. No one gave them a chance, but they'd practised intensively, studied every thing chennault had done and truely "owned" the Zekes.
Which brings on another scenario point: A lot of people, when they start this stuff, are aghast at how their favorite plane flies. They "know" the P40 (or for that matter the 109) was the superior plane, they have the factual results of the battles and the stories thier cultural background supplies. When they find the P40 is pretty much meat in arena play they naturally suspect the model is off and cry "foul". What they're missing are the tactical and leader ship aspects of combat which only really show in a scenario. For example, the Jug, although a strong plane, will never rule the arena. But put it up in flights of strength at 27K and give it the job of ensuring the Buffs get there, and you'll see it earn new respect from the LW, who, in turn, are there to buff kill, and thus get past the jug, not to fight the jug per se.
Dam! I want some scenarios. And not at 0400 my time either!
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Ahh ghstdncr, understand now. :) Thanx fer explaining.
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The side switch thing was key.
Peal Harbor, and Ploesti cried for a switch-side event because it was one side attacking and one defending. Ditto Battle of Britain.
I think that CAREFULL scoring planning *could* create a BoB, or Ploesti that didn't need a side switch despite the attacker/defender aspect. I don't however envision a Pearl that could achieve that because of what was said. It was a turkey shoot to a large degree and you need to switch sides to see what team makes the best hunters and smartest turkeys.
-W
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Gobble Gobble Gobble . .
Good thread all - thanks !
Mike "Jordi" Bowman - 2 time AW Pearl Harbor Commanding Officer Winner - for both sides !
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Just my two cents, I was part of the USAF Academy cadet chain of command in charge of the Luftwaffe in the Hostile Shores scenario last year. It was once again a one-sided attack, with American and British planes launching from carriers off the coast of Norway, and the Germans trying to defend.
The Germans were tasked with defending the Tirpitz, one of their few remaining ships, and a couple of strategic bases in Norway. History shows that the Tirpitz was sunk, and of course the Luftwaffe was eventually defeated.
The scenario was a great "what-if" though. As part of the German command staff, we got to go through the whole process of trying to effectively defend our strategic targets, while at the same time using what few assets we had to hunt down British carriers and convoys. We kept the Tirpitz floating until frame 3, when it was finally nailed by Lancasters and TBMs, but all the while our 109s and 190s did considerable damage to the American fighters.
I have to say that a "what-if" of Pearl Harbor, if run correctly, could be just as exciting and fun to play. I have nothing but repsect for fd-ski and the others who designed Hostile Shores, and look forward to the next multiframe scenario. <S>!
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Uhm,,, the terrain is done :)
NUTTZ
Originally posted by daddog:
If we had the plane set and the terrain I would set it up right away as a Snapshot. :)
Would also do some "what if's". What if we had a patrol of P-40's airborne, what if the IJN aircraft were spotted 5 min out, what if the IJN CV was spotted by one of our CV's...
Lots of ways to have fun with this event. :)
Good suggestion Mike, just a matter of time.
I also would put hb in one of those IJN mini subs. ;)