Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AquaShrimp on May 23, 2008, 08:40:54 PM
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I am utterly confused. Gas prices are at $4 a gallon, predicted to rise to $6 by the end of the year. The alternative fuel technologies are definitely there (cellulosic ethanol and algae-oil). But money is required to speed the research and build infrastructure. Why aren't all the candidates pushing this?
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They are all in the pocket of big oil? ;)
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Why isn't domestic drilling being pushed?
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Why isn't domestic drilling being pushed?
this is gonna sound dumb.
the main reason that our elected officials aren't pushing this stuff is because they don't have to live in the "everyday" joe's reality. they don't have to struggle to make ends meet.
i think they're also getting money from these companies to NOT do this research. kinda sucks really, but it seems there's really nothing we can do anymore. if we vote out the incumbents, the ones we vote in are just gonna do exactly what all of their predecessors have been doing.....nothing.
butcha know what>? i STILL think we live in the best country in the world.
<<S>>
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They are all in the pocket of big oil? ;)
Bingo!
I dont know if its true or not.
but I remember reading about a year ago how Republicans are supported by the big companies
And the Democrats are supported by the owners and shareholders of the big companies.
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All the oil we pump from Alaska, and sent down the Alaskan pipeline is actually sold to Asia. Its cheaper for us to import oil from the Middle East than it is to pump it from Alaska.
Making our own oil would solve so many problem. Its feasible, the technology is definitely there (wiki "cellulosic ethanol").
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it seems there's really nothing we can do anymore. if we vote out the incumbents, the ones we vote in are just gonna do exactly what all of their predecessors have been doing.....nothing.
<<S>>
Exactly why they keep trying to insult our intellegence with the candidates they put up for us to vote on.
Think of it like professional wrestling
Vince McMahon puts two people in the ring.
The people love to wath the fight.
Doesnt matter who wins. in the end Vince McMahon still wins
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Exactly why they keep trying to insult our intellegence with the candidates they put up for us to vote on.
Think of it like professional wrestling
Vince McMahon puts two people in the ring.
The people love to wath the fight.
Doesnt matter who wins. in the end Vince McMahon still wins
scary, but very good analogy i think
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Because alternative energy isn't the answer now, nor will it be for a long time. We can get new fields explored and well into production before many of the current 'alternative' energy ideas are proved or disproved--doesn't mean that drilling oil and figuring out new methods of producing energy are mutually exclusive. At any rate, making oil furtures less appealing to speculators, and improving the value of the dollar are the best way to decrease gas prices in the near-term
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It takes the energy equivalent to that contained in a gallon of petroleum based fuel to create a gallon of ethanol. A gallon of ethanol has about 1/2 the energy contained in a gallon of petroleum based fuel. Never mind what it takes to haul that gallon of ethanol to the station. There also are very few refineries capable of blending ethanol into gasoline. Which RAISES the cost of gasoline, and REDUCES the mileage you get from that gallon of gasoline. We're already throwing BILLIONS at ethanol, from every direction. It's helping. I paid an extra $0.30 a gallon for my gasoline last weekend, and it carried me only 90% as far. It works freakin GREAT!
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It takes the energy equivalent to that contained in a gallon of petroleum based fuel to create a gallon of ethanol. A gallon of ethanol has about 1/2 the energy contained in a gallon of petroleum based fuel. Never mind what it takes to haul that gallon of ethanol to the station. There also are very few refineries capable of blending ethanol into gasoline. Which RAISES the cost of gasoline, and REDUCES the mileage you get from that gallon of gasoline. We're already throwing BILLIONS at ethanol, from every direction. It's helping. I paid an extra $0.30 a gallon for my gasoline last weekend, and it carried me only 90% as far. It works freakin GREAT!
Cellulosic ethanol, not regular ethanol. Regular ethanol only uses the starch from the plant. Cellulosic ethanol is able to use the entire plant.
Cellulosic ethanol yields 80 percent more energy than is required to grow and convert it.
^ Ratliff, E. 2007. "One Molecule Could Cure our Addiction to Oil". Wired Magazine 15 (10).
Cellulosic ethanol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulosic_ethanol
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All the oil we pump from Alaska, and sent down the Alaskan pipeline is actually sold to Asia. Its cheaper for us to import oil from the Middle East than it is to pump it from Alaska.
Making our own oil would solve so many problem. Its feasible, the technology is definitely there (wiki "cellulosic ethanol").
Is there anything wich is NOT an evil conspiracy to you?
http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/alaskaoil.asp (http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/alaskaoil.asp)
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According to some on this BBS, the supply of Crude of Limitless. Why worry, there's plenty. :aok
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Cellulosic ethanol, not regular ethanol. Regular ethanol only uses the starch from the plant. Cellulosic ethanol is able to use the entire plant.
And one of these days, somewhere in the future, it may arrive. Especially once the numerous technical issues are solved, and once you get to a cost point where developing an infrastructure might be worth while.
Until then we have ready supplies of cheap oil. Not cheap now because of the weak dollar and the move of significant investment money including pension funds into the energy markets as a hedge against inflation after the collapse of the housing market. And the rampant speculation that similarly followed the housing market collapse, by the same general folk, looking for the next big wave to ride before the bubble bursts. Trading volume on crude is about 100 times what it was in 2005 according to a conference I attended earlier this week, where crude prices were a main topic of discussion in at least three of the sessions. The current positions suggest it will get worse, driven by the markets that account for about $50 on a current bbl of oil, with $30 being the devaluation of the dollar hit. Basically $80 bbl not related to natural market conditions, "big bad oil" or even evil OPEC -- but to financial policy and trading entities.
Once this current oil bubble pops -- and it MAY be sooner than expected -- all of that alternative energy that's only alternative at $40+ bbl will be long forgotten as we dump the Priuses like yesterday's tuna fish for the next Hummer on the market. Just like we have for several cycles already and will in the future. It was just 2000 when OPEC was going to really get tough and keep "high" crude prices in a basket at $22-$24 and everyone was worried about such high prices. There's little fundamentally to suggest the reality of 2000 will never return. Just like during the glory days of the 1990s and $10 bll crude there was every indication that the other reality, t1973, was not that far off as we moved to the SUV era. Only thing missing were the tailfins. All it takes is for all of the new supply coming online now at these high oil prices to surpass rapidly shrinking demand and a panic will set in on the markets.The difference between an oil glut and an oil shock is very small. A handful of percentage points, maybe less, in the supply vs demand equation. A lot of people are making a lot of money now, but the fall will be painful and hopefully only take out the speculators and not pension funds, etc.
Simple.
Also why it's so hard to get any real investment in these alternatives. We've been down this road before. We have a lot of expensive energy, but before too long oil will be back to 1990s levels. Until the process starts all over again. OPEC can make a hell of a profit at $20 - $40 and still undercut most of the biofuel and "hard oil" alternatives with ease.
Now, we could agree to a tax mechanism to keep gasoline in the US artificially high at a $40 - $60 equivalent and subsidize alternative fuels like we currently do somewhat with corn ethanol at $.45 cents per gallon and biodiesel at $1 gallon. From your pockets straight to the agriculture and biofuels industries. In the process we would encourage sensible cars and sensible driving and travel choices like they do in Europe (but to an even greater extent). But then when the market price of crude is at $15 and a gallon of gas "could" be had for $1.50 instead of the artificial $2.50 -- well, lets see the American motorist buy into that.
Charon
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And one of these days, somewhere in the future, it may arrive. Especially once the numerous technical issues are solved, and once you get to a cost point where developing an infrastructure might be worth while.
Until then we have ready supplies of cheap oil. Not cheap now because of the weak dollar and the move of significant investment money including pension funds into the energy markets as a hedge against inflation after the collapse of the housing market. And the rampant speculation that similarly followed the housing market collapse, by the same general folk, looking for the next big wave to ride before the bubble bursts. Trading volume on crude is about 100 times what it was in 2005 according to a conference I attended earlier this week, where crude prices were a main topic of discussion in at least three of the sessions. The current positions suggest it will get worse, driven by the markets that account for about $50 on a current bbl of oil, with $30 being the devaluation of the dollar hit. Basically $80 bbl not related to natural market conditions, "big bad oil" or even evil OPEC -- but to financial policy and trading entities.
Once this current oil bubble pops -- and it MAY be sooner than expected -- all of that alternative energy that's only alternative at $40+ bbl will be long forgotten as we dump the Priuses like yesterday's tuna fish for the next Hummer on the market. Just like we have for several cycles already and will in the future. It was just 2000 when OPEC was going to really get tough and keep "high" crude prices in a basket at $22-$24 and everyone was worried about such high prices. There's little fundamentally to suggest the reality of 2000 will never return. Just like during the glory days of the 1990s and $10 bll crude there was every indication that the other reality, t1973, was not that far off as we moved to the SUV era. Only thing missing were the tailfins. All it takes is for all of the new supply coming online now at these high oil prices to surpass rapidly shrinking demand and a panic will set in on the markets.The difference between an oil glut and an oil shock is very small. A handful of percentage points, maybe less, in the supply vs demand equation. A lot of people are making a lot of money now, but the fall will be painful and hopefully only take out the speculators and not pension funds, etc.
Simple.
Also why it's so hard to get any real investment in these alternatives. We've been down this road before. We have a lot of expensive energy, but before too long oil will be back to 1990s levels. Until the process starts all over again. OPEC can make a hell of a profit at $20 - $40 and still undercut most of the biofuel and "hard oil" alternatives with ease.
Now, we could agree to a tax mechanism to keep gasoline in the US artificially high at a $40 - $60 equivalent and subsidize alternative fuels like we currently do somewhat with corn ethanol at $.45 cents per gallon and biodiesel at $1 gallon. From your pockets straight to the agriculture and biofuels industries. In the process we would encourage sensible cars and sensible driving and travel choices like they do in Europe (but to an even greater extent). But then when the market price of crude is at $15 and a gallon of gas "could" be had for $1.50 instead of the artificial $2.50 -- well, lets see the American motorist buy into that.
Charon
only real problem with this is that regardless of how much the price of crude drops, where ever the price of a gallon of gas is at that point in time, it'll remain. possibly drop .50 or so, but it won't come back to where it was....last year.
<<S>>
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Is there anything wich is NOT an evil conspiracy to you?
http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/alaskaoil.asp (http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/alaskaoil.asp)
Oh good. I've heard several people repeat that so-called fact. I never bothered to research it myself.
I don't buy into conspiracies. The point of this thread wasn't to point to some conspiracy about politicians and big oil either. In fact, Charon provided me with the answer I wanted.
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All the oil we pump from Alaska, and sent down the Alaskan pipeline is actually sold to Asia. Its cheaper for us to import oil from the Middle East than it is to pump it from Alaska.
Making our own oil would solve so many problem. Its feasible, the technology is definitely there (wiki "cellulosic ethanol").
all that oil is sent to asia because we dont have the refinery capacity to refine it ourselves!
if you listen to big oil, they have told us the answer over and over for years, build refineries,, and drill at home!
we have proven oil feilds that will run 60 million cars for 60 year in this country and enough N.G. to run 160 million homes for the same 60 years, along with other untaped supplies, that would add up to a total of 118 years, if only we could drill and refine it! the cost of most of this oil would be around $55/70 per barrel, so anytime we say we are going to to produce this oil ,opec cuts the price of there crude to say $15 per barrel, that price along with shipping cost comes out to be just cheap enough for us not too produce our own oil!
refinery capacity in the U.S. has gone down by 40% in the last thirty years, while our usage has gone up! it cost alot of money to ship oil half way around the world! money that could be spent here at home!
the epa and the gov. have stoped big oils ability to produce new grounds in this country or build new refineries, yet we want the oil so we pay the price!
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all that oil is sent to asia because we dont have the refinery capacity to refine it ourselves!
if you listen to big oil, they have told us the answer over and over for years, build refineries,, and drill at home!
So why pump more domestic oil than you can refine? Oh, yeah, They can keep the price of gas high and sell all that extra oil they pump overseas. Got to keep those exorbitant profits flowing to the CEOs.
If they want to drill here the oil pumped should stay here until such a time that we pump more than we can consume. Why do we import oil if we don't have the capacity to refine it.
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Doesnt matter who wins. in the end Vince McMahon still wins
So who is Vince McMahon in this situation?
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Because alternative energy isn't the answer now, nor will it be for a long time.
:aok Bingo.
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So why pump more domestic oil than you can refine? Oh, yeah, They can keep the price of gas high and sell all that extra oil they pump overseas. Got to keep those exorbitant profits flowing to the CEOs.
If they want to drill here the oil pumped should stay here until such a time that we pump more than we can consume. Why do we import oil if we don't have the capacity to refine it.
i think we agree!!
we should be building refineries as fast as possiple , but that will still take some time, so at the same time we must drill to lower the price of crude by increasing supply, and stoping our dependancy on foriegn oil in the future
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only real problem with this is that regardless of how much the price of crude drops, where ever the price of a gallon of gas is at that point in time, it'll remain. possibly drop .50 or so, but it won't come back to where it was....last year.
Nope. No history at all to suggest that (we've been here before) nor does common sense. The only thing to delay the drop in price are the price positions on product in inventory or in the distribution channel. However, the devaluation of the dollar will keep it about 20-30 percent above the natural market regardless.
The overwhelming core cost component in gasoline is the price of crude -- not refining and certainly not retail. Taxes are a big part too. There are plenty of independent refiners producing gasoline and diesel so there is little ability to artificially keep gasoline prices high. They also have to compete with imported gasoline on the international market. So the wholesale price will quickly adjust.
Gas itself is sold by thousands of independent marketers and retailers. It is the only industry that posts the price of a core product in huge letters on the street for the consumer to see and comparison shop. About as transparent a retail market as you can get. Still very competitive and price driven. A big play for this industry is riding an advantage for 10 cts on a gallon net maybe, instead of 3 cts and it's easier to get that whopping 10 cents -- maybe -- if the prices are low as opposed to high. High prices like today are actually bad for retailers.
Charon
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So why pump more domestic oil than you can refine? Oh, yeah, They can keep the price of gas high and sell all that extra oil they pump overseas. Got to keep those exorbitant profits flowing to the CEOs.
If they want to drill here the oil pumped should stay here until such a time that we pump more than we can consume. Why do we import oil if we don't have the capacity to refine it.
It's remarkable how the all powerful oil companies did such a poor job of being evil overlords during the 1990s. The major integrated oil companies don't set the markets. They benefit when prices are high and become nothing special by any means from a profit or investment standpoint when prices are low.
As to crude and refined products. We get those where they a cheapest. Sometimes imports are cheaper. With the devalued dollar a lot of core commodities from food to fuel are attractive to foreign buyers. We have as much refining capacity, without having overcapacity, as the industry needs not just for the current super high demand periods (created by your and my vehicle choices and driving and commuting habits) but for a 1990s - style slump.
If you want to nationalized the oil company, set prices or set windfall profit taxes and screw the American driver for decades to come (proven economic failures for both the companies and their customers) then go ahead. I know you can find grandstanding politicians to go along with such bad ideas. All "keeping our oil here" means is nationalizing our oil industry which migh be almost acceptable IF we could produce more oil than we consumed. Which we can't. Or if we subsidized with our tax dollars $40 - $60 oil which might seem neat until crude prices quickly and easily dropped below that threshold.
Remember, no one itched at paying $1.50 for gasoline, and the oil companies could hardly get investment and consumers could have given a crap about alternative energies, hybrids or conservation. Canyonaro! Now that we see the results of our decisions, and we feel our pain, we will make decisions that help correct the market back to lower prices -- until we repeat the cycle.
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So why pump more domestic oil than you can refine? Oh, yeah, They can keep the price of gas high and sell all that extra oil they pump overseas. Got to keep those exorbitant profits flowing to the CEOs.
The US has more than enough refinery capacity to refine all the oil produced domestically.
US oil production is currently about 5 million barrels a day.
US refineries are currently refining about 15 million barrels day. They have capacity to refine about 17.6 million barrels a day.
all that oil is sent to asia because we dont have the refinery capacity to refine it ourselves!
No, the US exports about 26,000 barrels of crude oil a day. That's 0.5% of US domestic production, and about 0.15% of total US crude oil supply.
refinery capacity in the U.S. has gone down by 40% in the last thirty years
No, US refinery capacity has increased slightly compared with 30 years ago. In 1978 US refineries had a total capacity of 17.44 million barrels day.
In 2008, US refineries have a capacity of 17.59 million barrels a day.
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Big Oil did not stop nuclear power licensing and construction.
Big Oil did not hold ANWR off limits.
Big Oil did not hold the Florida and California coasts off limits to new drilling.
Big Oil did not stop a oil and natural gas drilling project off Cape Hatteras.
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Big Oil did not stop the Cape Cod wind farm project.
Big Oil is not fighting the Shetland Islands wind farm project.
Big Oil did not fight Maine's Beaver Ridge Wind Farm.
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One natural resource (oil) cant be in detriment to other natural resources (fisheries/waterfowl).
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One natural resource (oil) cant be in detriment to other natural resources (fisheries/waterfowl).
They are portrayed as mutually exclusive things by the hysterical leftists, but do not have to be
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The US has more than enough refinery capacity to refine all the oil produced domestically.
US oil production is currently about 5 million barrels a day.
US refineries are currently refining about 15 million barrels day. They have capacity to refine about 17.6 million barrels a day.
No, the US exports about 26,000 barrels of crude oil a day. That's 0.5% of US domestic production, and about 0.15% of total US crude oil supply.
No, US refinery capacity has increased slightly compared with 30 years ago. In 1978 US refineries had a total capacity of 17.44 million barrels day.
In 2008, US refineries have a capacity of 17.59 million barrels a day.
im not sure were you get those numbers from? the gov. says refinery capacity is down, the oil companies say it is down, the refiners themselve say they don t have enough capacity, and no new refineries have been built , so even if there was expansion to the existing refineries, it could not have kept up with the rise in demand!!
also why are they not pumping the oil out of the new wells being drilled every day in the mid west? because they have no place too go with it! it is cheaper to by foriegn oil and have it refined on its way here than too ship ours there, refined and returned ! the cheapest way too produce gas from the crude is to put the refinery next too the source, then sell the fuel localy! why else would gas in saudi be .15 cents a gallon? because it is refined at the source! venezuela is another place were gas cost's a lot less, because it is refined there as it is produced! what they dont need ,they sell to the world market! the cost of producing gas from oil has not risen that much, with the exeption of the 30 plus different grades the epa has convinced or state gov, we need! but in doing so they have drivin up the cost of transportation of that fuel to the U.S. and hampered the ability of those refineries we do have to produce at peak output since they have to change the mixture all the time, depending on were it is going!
i also dont understand why you seem to be against building new refineries??they would have too meet strictor standards than the old ones,, they would operate at lower output levels therby being much safer!
and because of redundincy there would be less fluctuation in the price of gas when there was a problem
example; 50 refineries in operation, one goes down, less impact than 28 refineries and one goes down
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im not sure were you get those numbers from? the gov. says refinery capacity is down, the oil companies say it is down, the refiners themselve say they don t have enough capacity, and no new refineries have been built , so even if there was expansion to the existing refineries, it could not have kept up with the rise in demand!!
The numbers come from the US government, the Energy Information Administration, part of the Department of Energy. They also come from BP, one of the major oil companies.
There was a refinery problem in the US following Katrina and the explosion at a BP refinery. Those were both short term factors. US refineries now have a fair bit of excess capacity.
also why are they not pumping the oil out of the new wells being drilled every day in the mid west?
I should think they are. Mid West oil production fell from its high point in the mid 80s until 2004. Since then it has risen year on year:
2004 - 159 million barrels
2005 - 162
2006 - 167
2007 - 172
because they have no place too go with it!
That would be a bit odd as US refineries have 3 times the capacity necessary to refine all domestic production.
! it is cheaper to by foriegn oil and have it refined on its way here than too ship ours there, refined and returned !
Probably, but that's not what's happening. The US is buying foreign oil because it produces about a third of what it needs. If you have to import oil, importing some of it as finished product makes sense, especially as European refineries produce more gasoline than they require, due to the widespread use of diesel cars in Europe.
why else would gas in saudi be .15 cents a gallon? because it is refined at the source!
No, gasoline is cheap in Saudi Arabia because the Saudi government subsidises it. Just the cost of the crude oil to produce a gallon of gasoline cost about $2.90 at the moment.
venezuela is another place were gas cost's a lot less, because it is refined there as it is produced!
No, again it's cheap because it's subsidised. That's one of the problems that's causing oil prices to rise so much. Countries like Venezuela, Saudi and Iran are booming because they are getting so much more for their oil. At the same time, their citizens are not paying the full price for oil, so their oil consumption is rising rapidly. That means these countries have less oil to export.
the cost of producing gas from oil has not risen that much,
No, it hasn't. Unfortunately the cost of the raw materials has gone up tremendously.
Enough crude oil to make a gallon of gasoline costs about $2.90. Refining it, transporting it and selling it costs about 43c, including the profits. The state and federal government take about 47c in taxes. That's where the $3.80 goes.
It's nothing to do with refining, it's purely down to the price of crude oil
i also dont understand why you seem to be against building new refineries??they would have too meet strictor standards than the old ones,, they would operate at lower output levels therby being much safer!
They'd cost more. Oil refineries cost a lot of money to run. They have large capital costs. For maximum efficiency you need to keep the refineries fully utilised. The more spare capacity you have, the more you pay for gasoline.
and because of redundincy there would be less fluctuation in the price of gas when there was a problem
example; 50 refineries in operation, one goes down, less impact than 28 refineries and one goes down
There isn't really a problem now. The US had a problem with Katrina, but that was an extreme event. Remember, you have to import oil anyway, importing finished gasoline isn't really any more difficult.
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I was reading this discussion on another bbs by some folks far smarter than I, was enlightening The gent who posted this has been in the commodities/futures business (grains) for 25 years
Index Fund speculators are far different than commodity speculators in the past. By definition they ONLY buy commodity futures and never short them. They sit on HUGE positions and roll them forward from futures option month to futures options month without selling. Right now Index funds hold over two full crop years of wheat in futures at the Chicago Board of Trade. The other point of the testimony is the CFTC (Commodity Futures Trading Commission) who is supposed to be the watchdog for any shenanigans has really dropped the ball this last year to allow this type of activity to overtake all futures markets.
http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/052008Masters.pdf
(http://www.notundertaxed.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/commodity-investment-testimony-1.jpg)
(http://www.notundertaxed.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/commodity-investment-testimony-2.jpg)
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No, gasoline is cheap in Saudi Arabia because the Saudi government subsidises it. Just the cost of the crude oil to produce a gallon of gasoline costs about $2.90 at the moment.
Not to the Saudis.
The raw material price that it costs on the world market of $130 / bbl is not what they pay. They pay the cost of pumping it from the ground and the cost of maintaining the pumping infrastructure.
They do however lose the enormous profit they would get if they sold the bbl instead of using it themselves.
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holden.. if we can't blame big oil then....
we would have to point the finger at democrats and their cronies for the fact that we don't have more oil and no cheap nuke plants or even new refineries. But look at the bright side.. lots less carbon when the price gets to 10 bucks a gallon.. and.. we won't have to fix the roads as much... course.. all the campfires might become a problem.
Still.. it's a small price to pay to feel green.
lazs
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holden.. if we can't blame big oil then....
we would have to point the finger at democrats and their cronies for the fact that we don't have more oil and no cheap nuke plants or even new refineries. But look at the bright side.. lots less carbon when the price gets to 10 bucks a gallon.. and.. we won't have to fix the roads as much... course.. all the campfires might become a problem.
Still.. it's a small price to pay to feel green.
lazs
Of course those with the loudest mouths, Al Bore comes to mind, will continue to enjoy parading around in their fleets of SUVs while many others walk. Walking is good for you though. Being unable to buy food because Al is burning it to heat his mansion may leave his parishoners feeling abandoned. He may get his social revolution yet. I just hope the enraged masses string up the right people, those responsible.
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"Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?"
Why indeed? How about because we're mired in an unwinnable police action in Iraq, the economy is in the tank, our deficeit is larger than ever, the housing crisis is destroying families, and the current Administration has stripped our citizens of basic rights and freedoms? In light of every other issue alternative energy just ain't all that important.
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holden.. if we can't blame big oil then....
we would have to point the finger at democrats and their cronies for the fact that we don't have more oil and no cheap nuke plants or even new refineries. But look at the bright side.. lots less carbon when the price gets to 10 bucks a gallon.. and.. we won't have to fix the roads as much... course.. all the campfires might become a problem.
Still.. it's a small price to pay to feel green.
lazs
You paint a totally unrealistic picture. Even in your home state of California, the salmon fishery has collapsed due to river pollution and low levels of oceanic plankton (on which salmon feed). Where are you going to drive to if you don't have anything to eat?
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"Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?"
Why indeed? How about because we're mired in an unwinnable police action in Iraq, the economy is in the tank, our deficeit is larger than ever, the housing crisis is destroying families, and the current Administration has stripped our citizens of basic rights and freedoms? In light of every other issue alternative energy just ain't all that important.
Contrary to what those who want any change at any cost may think, Iraq is being won. It wasn't cheap but the alternative might have cost us much more. Families have survived far greater crisis than the recent mortgage fiasco and will continue to do so. What basic rights and freedoms have you lost exactly? And so far as making alternative energy sources a government priority, what exactly did Bill and Ted, er, Al, do during their 8 years in office?
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Contrary to what those who want any change at any cost may think, Iraq is being won. It wasn't cheap but the alternative might have cost us much more. Families have survived far greater crisis than the recent mortgage fiasco and will continue to do so. What basic rights and freedoms have you lost exactly? And so far as making alternative energy sources a government priority, what exactly did Bill and Ted, er, Al, do during their 8 years in office?
AKIron, this is an election year- what we say doesn't have to have any real substance, it just has to be catchy and simple and something the sheeple can all memorize. "Two legs good, four legs better" describes the way we conduct politics....which explains alot about what we get.
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shrimp.. I don't know where you got that thing about oil having to do with salmon or even being "green" but I do live in kalifornia (and you do not) and the declining population has nothing to do with green.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080129210349.htm
It is most likely cyclical and due to the conditions in the ocean.. science daily admits that no one knows. And that is the problem.. all you greens think you know all about mother nature but you do not... you want to "help" when you don't even know what help means.
Unless you are saying that we can't have cheap nuke energy or drill offshore for oil because we will kill all the salmon.. you really aren't saying that are you?
lazs
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shrimp.. I don't know where you got that thing about oil having to do with salmon or even being "green" but I do live in kalifornia (and you do not) and the declining population has nothing to do with green.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080129210349.htm
It is most likely cyclical and due to the conditions in the ocean.. science daily admits that no one knows. And that is the problem.. all you greens think you know all about mother nature but you do not... you want to "help" when you don't even know what help means.
Unless you are saying that we can't have cheap nuke energy or drill offshore for oil because we will kill all the salmon.. you really aren't saying that are you?
lazs
Lazs, I was at Ft. Bragg the other day, talking to a commercial fisherman- he brought up two points concerning the cancellation of the salmon season- 1, to get disaster relief the State wants your salmon permit in exchange, effectively ending your fishing career, and 2, they left the river and stream salmon season alone, and the salmon going upriver are the ones that breed so the closure will have a minimal impact on the numbers of salmon anyway.
Typical State DFG- idiots.
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yep.
lazs