Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Serenity on May 24, 2008, 03:43:35 PM
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Alright, Ive just hit a MAJOR snag in school, and I need to pick a college... well... by June 6th. And I was hoping you all could help me pick. I have a couple questions for you all to help me if you wouldn't mind.
1) My first choice is the Air Force Academy. Ive searched all over their website, and cannot find the answer to this. Do they have a required number of years in a high school foreign language?
and 2) I'm planning on studying history, (Especially where it relates to the Military). I am also planning on going into the Air Force. So, does anyone have any colleges to suggest OTHER than the Academy, with good history programs, AND an Air Force ROTC unit?
Thank you in advance.
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Alright, Ive just hit a MAJOR snag in school, and I need to pick a college... well... by June 6th. And I was hoping you all could help me pick. I have a couple questions for you all to help me if you wouldn't mind.
1) My first choice is the Air Force Academy. Ive searched all over their website, and cannot find the answer to this. Do they have a required number of years in a high school foreign language?
and 2) I'm planning on studying history, (Especially where it relates to the Military). I am also planning on going into the Air Force. So, does anyone have any colleges to suggest OTHER than the Academy, with good history programs, AND an Air Force ROTC unit?
Thank you in advance.
As per #1, don't rely on the website; Get serious, write letters, get on the phone, Even make a personal visit.
As for #2, remember, your choice of Major will ultimately effect your military career. And, also talk to your HS counselors, they can do a lot to help you out.
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You're just beginning to think about this now? :huh Good luck.
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Alright, Ive just hit a MAJOR snag in school, and I need to pick a college... well... by June 6th. And I was hoping you all could help me pick. I have a couple questions for you all to help me if you wouldn't mind.
1) My first choice is the Air Force Academy. Ive searched all over their website, and cannot find the answer to this. Do they have a required number of years in a high school foreign language?
and 2) I'm planning on studying history, (Especially where it relates to the Military). I am also planning on going into the Air Force. So, does anyone have any colleges to suggest OTHER than the Academy, with good history programs, AND an Air Force ROTC unit?
Thank you in advance.
I'm a bit unclear on your statement...Where are you in school right now...about to graduate? You may wish to clarify your position.
AF academy by June 6th? You better hope your congressman or woman in your district is really bored right now. Your representative in your district must submit your name and a personal recommendation to the Academy, and from there you must submit your HS work, as well as heavy extra-curricular activities. It's been awhile, but I may even be off by one requirement... I believe it may be TWO representatives that need to recommend you to a service academy.... At least, I'm pretty sure Annapolis was like that when I was interested. Also, if you aren't in the top 5% or so of your high school class, 3.5 or higher GPA, 1400 SAT ....and have a great record of community service (not required by law, but out of the grace of your heart) look elsewhere. (I graduated with 3.8 and 1470 SAT... and missed on community service.... even though I was an Eagle Scout)
It generally takes the better part of the year to simply apply to Colorado Springs. You should have had this started by the end of your eleventh grade year.
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I'm a bit unclear on your statement...Where are you in school right now...about to graduate? You may wish to clarify your position.
AF academy by June 6th? You better hope your congressman or woman in your district is really bored right now. Your representative in your district must submit your name and a personal recommendation to the Academy, and from there you must submit your HS work, as well as heavy extra-curricular activities. It's been awhile, but I may even be off by one requirement... I believe it may be TWO representatives that need to recommend you to a service academy.... At least, I'm pretty sure Annapolis was like that when I was interested. Also, if you aren't in the top 5% or so of your high school class, 3.5 or higher GPA, 1400 SAT ....and have a great record of community service (not required by law, but out of the grace of your heart) look elsewhere. (I graduated with 3.8 and 1470 SAT... and missed on community service.... even though I was an Eagle Scout)
It generally takes the better part of the year to simply apply to Colorado Springs. You should have had this started by the end of your eleventh grade year.
What he said.
Are you in a public school, or are you at Punahou?
What year are you?
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In 2001 to the best of my memory the USMA West Point required one representitive. Mine was a US Senator from my state. I did not go so it wound up being a moot point.
Serenity I do know several people who found themselves in Colorado Springs after 1-2 years of college. I've heard of people going with even more time between high school and the academy but don't know any personally.
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I'm a sophomore in a public high school. I don't need to be accepted, but I have to re-arrange my entire high-school curriculum for the next few years because the idiots at my school have f***ed up the classes... yeah. I just need to know which college I am aiming for so I know which prerequisites to hit. I'm not trying to be ACCEPTED by june 6th, I just need to make a decision by then, and then have 2 more years to finish my application. Also, as far as asking my HS councilors, I've tried. They don't know anything about any colleges but UH and the local community colleges.
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I'm a sophomore in a public high school. I don't need to be accepted, but I have to re-arrange my entire high-school curriculum for the next few years because the idiots at my school have f***ed up the classes... yeah. I just need to know which college I am aiming for so I know which prerequisites to hit. I'm not trying to be ACCEPTED by june 6th, I just need to make a decision by then, and then have 2 more years to finish my application.
How are you ranked in your class and what's your GPA? If you want to go to the AFA, start contacting your congressman / senator soon.
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How are you ranked in your class and what's your GPA? If you want to go to the AFA, start contacting your congressman / senator soon.
Not very good, which is why I'm looking at other colleges as well. I know the Air Force won't take you're ACTUAL application until Junior year, so I'll begin all of that in August. I just need to know which other schools I want to go to and what their requirements are by June 6th, since half of the classes I wanted to take are unavailable. (Basically, if youre in any honors/AP classes in my school, you have to change your entire list of classes because they made a mistake when making next year's schedule)
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I'm a sophomore in a public high school. I don't need to be accepted, but I have to re-arrange my entire high-school curriculum for the next few years because the idiots at my school have f***ed up the classes... yeah. I just need to know which college I am aiming for so I know which prerequisites to hit. I'm not trying to be ACCEPTED by june 6th, I just need to make a decision by then, and then have 2 more years to finish my application. Also, as far as asking my HS councilors, I've tried. They don't know anything about any colleges but UH and the local community colleges.
After reading where you are at this time in your academic studies, you at least have the luxury of some time. Next year is incredibly important for you. Should you want to got to any top tier university or service academy, you should be taking AP or honors classes almost exclusively. Depending on your interests, and the school, make sure you have top level math.... Calculus and Trig under your belt. You must make your high school resume as rounded as possible..... after school activity participation (sports or other) AND good grades show colleges you have the ability to succeed at more than one thing at a time.
Feel free to PM me if you need advice.
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Just get a 30 on the ACTs (for east coast schools) and above a 3.0 GPA, and you'll be all set.
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After reading where you are at this time in your academic studies, you at least have the luxury of some time. Next year is incredibly important for you. Should you want to got to any top tier university or service academy, you should be taking AP or honors classes almost exclusively. Depending on your interests, and the school, make sure you have top level math.... Calculus and Trig under your belt. You must make your high school resume as rounded as possible..... after school activity participation (sports or other) AND good grades show colleges you have the ability to succeed at more than one thing at a time.
Feel free to PM me if you need advice.
That's actually the snag. Next year, im slated for an honors course, double science, and I will be the ONLY junior in an AP course in my school. (They don't let you take AP until you're a senior, but I got an exemption to take AP history from the history department here). Just ONE of the issues is that AP course. I got into a 'real' highschool through... interesting means. Here's the story on that if youre interested:
In 8th grade, our math teacher was provisional. So, the school didn't want him making any recomendations for higher placement in math. That meant I would be placed in the default pre-Alg class in fresman year. That would make taking Calculus impossible, even WITH summerschool. So, I left the school system to be homeschooled for the first quarter, came back second quarter and took a placement test to get into Alg I. So, I was on schedule with math, but because I came in partway through the year, I couldn't take a foreign language.
Now heres the problem. I took French I this year, so I need to take French II junior year. But, we only have ONE French II class, and only ONE AP History class. And theyre at the exact same time. So I have to pick one. Thats only ONE of my problems, but its the main one, and I need to know what college I want, so I will know if they require a certain number of years in HS Foreign Language. I know I could take French II Senior year, but then there's that akward year-long break in between. However, I think it's impressive to colleges to be the YOUNGEST person in an AP class, and to have gotten there only because you were so good at the course, you got a special exception from the department head.
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If you were really serious about the Air Force Academy or any other Military Academy you would have tighten yer arse up a few Years ago. Straight "A"s, Advanced Courses, Honor grades... seems to me yer just pissin in the wind.
My Daughter did all of the above plus great community service, a Congressional and Presidential recommendation to USMA. She had a sponser for a visit to "The Point". Yet lacked any ROTC. She had great grades since the 9th grade. She went to OU instead.
So if yer askin how to get there now... Son yer a lil too late.
Mac
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If you were really serious about the Air Force Academy or any other Military Academy you would have tighten yer arse up a few Years ago. Straight "A"s, Advanced Courses, Honor grades... seems to me yer just pissin in the wind.
My Daughter did all of the above plus great community service, a Congressional and Presidential recommendation to USMA. She had a sponser for a visit to "The Point". Yet lacked any ROTC. She had great grades since the 9th grade. She went to OU instead.
So if yer askin how to get there now... Son yer a lil too late.
Mac
Wow... no, did you even READ the topic?
BTW: Advanced classes arent available until junior and senior year here.
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In reality the best option may be to get a 2 year degree from a junior collage and then jump in to the ROTC program at a 4 year school. Depending on your state you may be able to get a full ride from the Guard. (That works here in NM) Unless you are at the ragged forward edge of the GPA crowd a "Name" school is no better than the local state collage, with the reduced number of students (down from the baby boomers) jobs will be plentiful for grads. Also unless you are going be a lifer, plan your military specialty to carry over in to the real world after your term of enlistment is up.
Just a thought,
Kevin
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In reality the best option may be to get a 2 year degree from a junior collage and then jump in to the ROTC program at a 4 year school. Depending on your state you may be able to get a full ride from the Guard. (That works here in NM) Unless you are at the ragged forward edge of the GPA crowd a "Name" school is no better than the local state collage, with the reduced number of students (down from the baby boomers) jobs will be plentiful for grads. Also unless you are going be a lifer, plan your military specialty to carry over in to the real world after your term of enlistment is up.
Just a thought,
Kevin
I dont really expect to get into the Academy, so I was hoping you all could make some suggestions as to some other good schools for studying history. My G.P.A. isn't really all that bad. 3.5 as of right now.
I intend to be a lifer though, I love the Military, what it stands for, the lifestyle, and I want to go active, not guard. As for specialty, the only thing that feels right in this world is flying...
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Not very good, which is why I'm looking at other colleges as well. I know the Air Force won't take you're ACTUAL application until Junior year, so I'll begin all of that in August.
Your grades are not that good? But you know the Air Force Academy "won't" take yer "ACTUAL" application until when?
Ohhh you sooo funny... PahLeeez.
:rofl
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You'll soon be flyin a Buffer in a AF Dorm.
And you said before that you have a bad knee?
:rofl
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Your grades are not that good? But you know the Air Force Academy "won't" take yer "ACTUAL" application until when?
Ohhh you sooo funny... PahLeeez.
:rofl
Again, did you even READ the initial post? Or any subsequent ones other than that little quote?
As for the difference in 'ACTUAL' application, you can submit a form saying you are interested and get your name on the list for more information, but the application process doesn't start until junior year. Listed both on their website, and firsthand from a friend of mine who used to be involved with admissions. I would just ask him, seeing as no one actually reads anything anyone says about the Academy, they simply post their own oppinions. Unfortunately, I have lost his contact info over the years.
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Have you tried McDonalds University?
Serenity... I'll call you on this.
I know the application procedure...
You said you couldn't find the website....
Ohhhh give us more.
I like Pineapples.
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Have you tried McDonalds University?
Serenity... I'll call you on this.
I know the application procedure...
You said you couldn't find the website....
Ohhhh give us more.
I like Pineapples.
I said I couldn't find the info I was looking for ON the website. Get a better perscription on your glasses.
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Kid... as hard as you yank.... my chain ain't movin.
Try a different bait.
Mac
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Alright, Ive just hit a MAJOR snag in school, and I need to pick a college... well... by June 6th. And I was hoping you all could help me pick. I have a couple questions for you all to help me if you wouldn't mind.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/17/20194029_47161d5b79.jpg?v=0)
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(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/17/20194029_47161d5b79.jpg?v=0)
Wow... I'm not even going to start... no wonder this country is sliding downhill...
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See Rules #4, #5, #6
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See Rules #4, #5, #6
What is not 'together' with my crap if you dont mind my asking? Ive got a decent 3.5 G.P.A., im in an honors class, an AP class, all of my other classes are advanced level, im one of very FEW juniors taking Trig next year (Most are seniors), never failed a grade, on the school paper, a senior NCO in CAP, a boy scout post leader, getting ready to get my Pilot's License this August...
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See Rules #4, #5, #6
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See Rules #4, #5, #6
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See RUles #4, #5
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See Rules #4, #5
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How about doing some jobs and courses for a year while you focus on your applications?
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See Rule #2, #5
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I've never seen a college require less than 2---to graduate in VA, my kid had to take 3 years on one language, or two years each of 2 languages. (She did 2 each of Latin and Spanish)
VMI has great history program---was fortunate enough to hear this gentleman speak twice at Veteran's Day ceremonies (he teaches history there)--I'd have given anything to have had him for my teacher when I was your age. He was a SF type in Vietnam, came home, started going to school, and never stopped
ALAN F. FARRELL, Brigadier General, Professor of Modern Languages
and Cultures. B.A. Trinity College; M.A. - French, M.A. - German,
Ph.D., Tufts University. (1995; 2001)
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I've never seen a college require less than 2---to graduate in VA, my kid had to take 3 years on one language, or two years each of 2 languages. (She did 2 each of Latin and Spanish)
Is that to get in or to graduate? I know U.H. requires two to GRADUATE, but not to get in.
And Angus, I was planning on going straight through to college. I don't see the point in delaying it.
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Is that to get in or to graduate? I know U.H. requires two to GRADUATE, but not to get in.
And Angus, I was planning on going straight through to college. I don't see the point in delaying it.
Sorry--should have specified--that was to graduate high school (on a college track program)
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Sorry--should have specified--that was to graduate high school (on a college track program)
Alright, thank you! Our minimum to graduate HS is 2 years.
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Serinity,
I spent about 30 seconds with google and found this web site, http://www.afrotc.com/colleges/ there is a list of colleges that have AFROTC on campus. You need to cross check the same schools on that list with the major you want to take. Keep in mind that as far as the major is concerned a degree may be as good from one as another.
You plan to go career from what you posted. If you are really serious about it I'd look at some of the engineering aspects. Either electrical, aeronautical and so on to help boost the AF career track.
If you are serious about a History major then look at schools that also lead to teaching careers because that's where a history major will take you. There's not a lot of demand outside of academia for history.
If you are looking at something in business an Ivy League degree actually has more "worth" than any regular state school.
Different majors also have different language requirements. My original Bachelors major had none so I didn't need to take any language in HS or college.
I'd be looking at the school list with an actual AFROTC detachment on campus for whatever major you want to achieve. If you really aren't in the very tip top of the class your options WILL be limited. You might also look at applying for an ROTC scholarship.
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Ive got a decent 3.5 G.P.A., im in an honors class, an AP class, all of my other classes are advanced level, im one of very FEW juniors taking Trig next year (Most are seniors), never failed a grade, on the school paper, a senior NCO in CAP, a boy scout post leader, getting ready to get my Pilot's License this August...
What grade are you in this year? How are you taking an AP class this year when earlier you stated that your school doesn't let you take AP until you are a senior? If you will be the ONLY junior to take an AP class NEXT year, how are you taking one now?
That's actually the snag. Next year, im slated for an honors course, double science, and I will be the ONLY junior in an AP course in my school. (They don't let you take AP until you're a senior, but I got an exemption to take AP history from the history department here).
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Honors and AP courses were separate. The only AP courses I took in high school (and it seems like a long time listening to some of the blather kids put these days [get off my lawn]) were AP History and AP Chemistry. That's because they were fun not because I wanted to boost my GPA...
There were Honors courses but I thought it more of a feel-good for the PTA meetings for folks who wanted to pat themselves on the back about how great their kids were.
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See Rules #4, #5
This may be the most intelligent post in this thread.
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whoa, mac, lay of the kid. whatever his actual chances are for getting in...the other squeakers on the board could learn something from this thread as well...
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See Rules #4, #5
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See Rules #4, #5
*shrug* he knows what he did, no need to mess up a thread containing useful information for anyone who might be interested in this sort of thing pointing out things that are obvious and well known.
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I'm a sophomore in a public high school. I don't need to be accepted, but I have to re-arrange my entire high-school curriculum for the next few years because the idiots at my school have f***ed up the classes... yeah. I just need to know which college I am aiming for so I know which prerequisites to hit. I'm not trying to be ACCEPTED by june 6th, I just need to make a decision by then, and then have 2 more years to finish my application. Also, as far as asking my HS councilors, I've tried. They don't know anything about any colleges but UH and the local community colleges.
serenity, if i recall from chatting with you ingame one night, you're in CAP also? if you are, check with some of the higher ranking CAP members. a lot of them re ex military, and may be able to point ya in the right direction. there should also be an Air Force Liason officer based at your wing HQ. he can also help you i think. talk to your squad CO, anyone you can get honest answers from..
i wish i could offer you more/better advice, but i sincerely hope this helps you a bit.
good luck!!
<<S>>
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Good Luck Serenity.
:aok
Mac
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Serinity,
I spent about 30 seconds with google and found this web site, http://www.afrotc.com/colleges/ there is a list of colleges that have AFROTC on campus. You need to cross check the same schools on that list with the major you want to take. Keep in mind that as far as the major is concerned a degree may be as good from one as another.
You plan to go career from what you posted. If you are really serious about it I'd look at some of the engineering aspects. Either electrical, aeronautical and so on to help boost the AF career track.
If you are serious about a History major then look at schools that also lead to teaching careers because that's where a history major will take you. There's not a lot of demand outside of academia for history.
If you are looking at something in business an Ivy League degree actually has more "worth" than any regular state school.
Different majors also have different language requirements. My original Bachelors major had none so I didn't need to take any language in HS or college.
I'd be looking at the school list with an actual AFROTC detachment on campus for whatever major you want to achieve. If you really aren't in the very tip top of the class your options WILL be limited. You might also look at applying for an ROTC scholarship.
Thanks, I have that list too. I was just wondering if anyone had any particular schools to recomend. Right now, im just looking at things in the Colorado Springs area, so if I get accepted to the Academy after some time in another College, I'll already be used to the climate, altitude, etc. The problem with engineering is my math skills. They aren't exactly great, which I know is a problem off the bat considering I'm trying to be a pilot, but unless engineering will really help me get my 'wings' I don't want to drive myself crazy for nothing ;)
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1) My first choice is the Air Force Academy. Ive searched all over their website, and cannot find the answer to this. Do they have a required number of years in a high school foreign language?
If your vag is particularly oozy, then by all means head over to Colorado Springs. Otherwise, you may want to consider the fine weather in Annapolis this time of year.
-Sik
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Oozy....
:rofl
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If your vag is particularly oozy, then by all means head over to Colorado Springs. Otherwise, you may want to consider the fine weather in Annapolis this time of year.
-Sik
Spoken by a troo swab :)
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Serenity,
One other issue that may impact you is that you’ve been educated in the Hawaii public school system. Having gone to school in Hawaii and several mainland and Alaska colleges I can tell you that the Hawaiian public school system does not fully prepare most students for mainland colleges. The expectations in Hawaii are lower; at least they were 12 years ago when I graduated. The director of my major/program was from the mainland and held students and classes to a mainland standard; the washout rate was amazing. I couldn’t believe how little my Hawaiian classmates knew and how difficult they found the work. Be prepared for a bit of academic culture shock to accompany your regular culture shock. Get straight A’s next year kiddo; make it happen.
You don’t read like you speak Pidgin, but most Hawaiian residents do. If you do at all, let it go completely. It will make mainland academia very difficult and people will laugh at you. (I’m sure other folks have just read the above and probably don’t understand. If you’re curious, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_Pidgin )
I’ve lived in Colorado Springs for five years. Its 6,000’ elevation isn’t enough to be noticed unless you are in really bad shape, elderly or comparing track/marathon times. I also was in Woodland Park for two years; 8,500’ was enough to make our parents feel a bit weak, but they were in their late 60’s and 70’s.
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Having gone to school in Hawaii and several mainland and Alaska colleges I can tell you that the Hawaiian public school system does not fully prepare most students for mainland colleges.
I went to FLA for my senior year in '78--I found same deal there---closer to the beach, the dumber the kids got
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LOL Mac.
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I chose the college I went to after they interviewed me and told me I was accepted...about a month or two before I actually graduated.
I then dropped out and went to work at a bank.
Got fired.
Got a job in construction.
Got fired.
Got a job in marine constrction.
Got fired.
Decided to go back to school.
Got a useless degree in political science but had the time of my life.
Started a painting company.
Had trouble making enough money to eat.
Went back to school at night to get enough credits to get my accounting designation while working during the day.
Went home to work in a local firm.
Became a manager.
Got married.
Became a partner.
Make good money and live well...thanks very much.
I can't help smiling at the thought of being a sophmore in high school and being as concerned about his future as Serenity obviously is and watching everyone poo poo him for not doing enough.
I'd be a very very rich man if I had Serenity's gumption at his age.
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Hey, I'll have yall know I'M PLANNING for my retirement.....I'm practicing writing checks with my left hand in case I have a stroke....so whose the smart one NOW Mr Accountant man! :D
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I went to FLA for my senior year in '78--I found same deal there---closer to the beach, the dumber the kids got
LOL it's still the truth.. you should see some of the freshies I get in Lab courses.
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Hey Serenity, sorry this is kinda late, Ill tell you what I did. I applied for the Highschool Scholarship my Senior year after researching it my junior. I didnt want the academy cause I wanted a life lol. The big thing with the scholarship is that you need need need! to have demonstrated that you can lead and that you can speak lol. My previous experience in Civil Air Patrol and JROTC along with my interview are what made it for me. I only had a 3.6 GPA and was only in the top 25% of my class. My PFA for my scholarship was terrible to lol. I only got a 15:02 on the mile and a half... Currently Im at Embry Riddle in Prescott on an USAF type 2 scholarship.
My advice to you is to try and get into some leadership positions around your school, see if there is a local CAP squadron, if you fast track and start now you'll have just enough time to make it to C/2Lt which is a milestone achievement and itll help you get ready for the leadership youll need to learn in ROTC or the Academy. As for the classes, take the AP class and start on Rosetta stone for French if thats the language you want. BUT! I would recommend German, Russian, but Arabic and Chinese are ideal. Hope it helps!n e question PM me.
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LOL it's still the truth.. you should see some of the freshies I get in Lab courses.
I remember handing in some paper in biology class, and the teacher asking me if I was 'from around here?' "nah, Manassas, VA---DC burbs" He said it showed, I could write a paragraph :lol
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Serenity,
One other issue that may impact you is that you’ve been educated in the Hawaii public school system. Having gone to school in Hawaii and several mainland and Alaska colleges I can tell you that the Hawaiian public school system does not fully prepare most students for mainland colleges. The expectations in Hawaii are lower; at least they were 12 years ago when I graduated. The director of my major/program was from the mainland and held students and classes to a mainland standard; the washout rate was amazing. I couldn’t believe how little my Hawaiian classmates knew and how difficult they found the work. Be prepared for a bit of academic culture shock to accompany your regular culture shock. Get straight A’s next year kiddo; make it happen.
You don’t read like you speak Pidgin, but most Hawaiian residents do. If you do at all, let it go completely. It will make mainland academia very difficult and people will laugh at you. (I’m sure other folks have just read the above and probably don’t understand. If you’re curious, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_Pidgin )
I’ve lived in Colorado Springs for five years. Its 6,000’ elevation isn’t enough to be noticed unless you are in really bad shape, elderly or comparing track/marathon times. I also was in Woodland Park for two years; 8,500’ was enough to make our parents feel a bit weak, but they were in their late 60’s and 70’s.
It's still bad out here. We have mainland kids who move in, and are taking classes 1-2 years ahead of what the locals are in. I'm trying to take the hardest classes I can get though for that very reason. And I don't speak a word of pidgin. Never have. It's good to know the alt. won't be too bad. Ive done PFT up at Pohakuloa, (6,000 feet as well) and it really isn't THAT bad, but I can feel a difference. Thank you very much for the advice.
Superplug, yeah, I'm MSgt. right now, flight sergeant. I could be an Lt. without a bit of trouble if it weren't for the PFT. Thats my weakest point. I would LOVE to learn German. I've done a bit from CDs, but the French made it tough to do both. I'm not taking it because I want to learn it, I'm taking it because I need SOME foreign language credit, and it was either French, Spanish, Korean, or Hawaiian. I really don't fancy the other three ;)