Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Fencer51 on May 25, 2008, 10:02:54 PM
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I hope we get the 152 thread back. If not we need to go over whom is doing what again. :)
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TK's doing one of the 9's, maybe Reschke's. This one I think:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2241/2259458415_dbb19874f9_o.gif)
Someone's doing this one, Motherland or Xasthur:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2405/2188498335_7998296777_o.jpg)
I'm doing this late scheme, the bottom one..
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2394/2349721139_77a6024817_b.jpg)
I can't recall what Krusty chose after someone dib'd Green 9 before him.
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Well if no one is doing this one I would like to do it.
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I was going to post that.. I think someone said they were doing that JG11 scheme.. I can't recall if it was VonMessa, or someone else.
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Green 2 is mine... it's... coming along.
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I did call Yellow 1 some time ago. Krusty and I were discussing whether or not it was yellow or green.
Working on it but it has been a secondary project as my K4s required a total re-work.
I nearly have the bastids done and then the work on 152 will resume.
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Did anyone make any progress with some definitive pictures or schematics for the rivet placement on the 152?
I recently bought Jerry Crandal's Dora bible and I'll make some adaptations from that if I can find nothing else more authoritative.
I will be using a 'sunken rivet' effect, as opposed to the default 'raised' appearance, though, so I'm trying to get a solid understanding of the rivet placement as I have done with the 109Ks I have recently submitted.
Does anyone have any sources they would like to share?
Cheers guys
:salute
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Oh.... Any progress shots, guys?
TK was doing a great job on his a very long time ago....
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I switched to less visible sunken pattern too, yep. Slacked off this week and now I'm getting pretty busy with work etc. Two more weeks I guess! :)
Do post refs from JC on the wing root panel/rivet lines tho. I've got refs from Japo's "Fw190D & Ta152", from Model Art's book of the same name, "Focke Wulf Jagdflugzeug Fw190A Fw190 "Dora" Ta152H" by P. Rodeike, and a bunch of schematics I found on a russian website. I've also got Dietmar Harmann's "Ta 152", Profile #094 on the 190D/Ta152, and Monogram #24.
I also have a short piece on Luftwaffe Structure that details some common structure layouts of LW planes..
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I've gone through JC's book and I've got plenty of crisp photos showing the cockpit area of the fuselage on both sides and a couple of the upper surfaces of the horizontal stabilisers. I'm coming up short on the upper wing surfaces (in enough detail for rivets at least, I have some great photos from the internet for camo patterns) and, of course, the lower surfaces.
I'll have to go through the book and post the best shots here when I get home from work. I haven't got a scanner but my camera should do the job well enough.
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I've got all the rivets and panel lines down to the smallest detail.. The only problem seems to be a minor difference between fuselage nose shapes. There's a lateraly straight one, and another one that tapers towards the nose (no disagreement on vertical taper). The other inconsistencies are minor..
I can post any specific areas anyone has doubts on.. just ask.
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Are there any glaring errors in the default layout of the panel lines?
I've noticed a couple of tiny things just forward of the the canopy (1 panel line that shouldn't be there according to photos) but that's it so far.
Is your rivet layout on the upper wing surfaces more bare than the standard 152/190 skins in game? Compared to photos some of them seem ludicrously overdone.
I cannot find any definitive images that help me with the amount of rivets on the upper wing surface.
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Well some of the stuff may be field mods of preproduction stuff later corrected.. E.G. the nose taper thing.. No one on the whole internet that I've heard back from knows what that's about.
The biggest flaw I've found with the default skin's layout is around the wingroot. The fuselage (that's where it's mapped on our model) panel line there is too far radialy away from the wingroot. I'll post a pic of this and the upper wing rivet patterns, and the fuse just ahead of the canopy in a bit. Another flaw is pretty minor, the belly is missing most of its details. The 108 chute, part of the landing gear assy, etc. I'll post a pic of that from what I have too.
It would be great if you could post these: a series of very narrow detail shots of the different mottle gradients in as high res as you can, to give an idea of exactly what the mottle/#76 and camo1/camo2, etc boundaries looked like; and some shot (not necessarily a full plane) that illustrates what a fully painted 152 looked like, as far as how obvious the rivets and panel lines came out. JC's stuff is really high quality, so it should be very helpful to see how he pictured them and whether we're right about the rivets not needing to pop out much at all.
I've gotta go now so I can't post a pic of it, but if the rivet patterns you can see on the 190D13 in Seattle are a good indication, we shouldn't see the rivets nearly as raw as on the new default Ta152 skin.
And say if you see any significant variance between the different schemes' #76 tint in JC's book(s)... I need to commit to one and can't make up my mind between all the different references' renderings.
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I believe that many of these images may have come from you or from links you provided, so these may well be redundant... but just in case...
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/Ta152H.jpg)
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/TA152-21.jpg)
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/ta152m.jpg)
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/TA152-H-3.jpg)
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/981107Ta152Forward.jpg)
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/2355820394_dbf60658a1_o.png)
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/152jg301.jpg)
These images all suggest to me that only the panel lines on the upper cowling were readily visible from a distance which leads me to believe that the 152s that saw combat action had the extra time spent on them in the factory applying filler to the the panel lines and quite possibly the rivets also (as they're only starkly visible in places where the paint has chipped off). Thus, the only clearly visible lines should really be the cowl, the MG 151/20 folding hatch: (http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/Rot4-junk2.jpg)
and all the other regular access hatches for fuel, radio, electricity etc.
JC's book does not provided anything the way of photos of the 152 that I've found yet, it's all Dora stuff. There's a profile for the orange 152 and the one I'm doing, with a photo that is floating around here on the forum. The 152 camo was essentially exactly the same as late Doras so I will flip through it and get what I can from it.
I'll get back to you with the rest of the stuff you asked for later on.
Cheers, mate.
[Edit] If it helps, I beleive that the palest shade of 76 available on Simmer's Paintshop is the best representation of the shade of 76 used on the Jg 301 152s, including 'Yellow 1' that I'm doing, that I've come across so far. I will try and get some more photos of late D9s out of JCs to help you out, though.
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(http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/images/fw190d9wing090701bg_4.JPG)
D9 in the process of restoration. The quality is not as great I would like it to be but it does show an abundance of depressed rivets on the underside. One would guess that the rivet pattern would be similar on the upper surfaces too.
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Ta 152 H0
(http://www.geocities.com/ta152uk/Ta_152_H-0_Wing_2.jpg)
(http://www.geocities.com/ta152uk/Ta_152_H-0_Wing_1.jpg)
From that site: Wings. The wings were high on a shelf, not ideal for photography. Nevertheless they confirm it as a H-0, pre-production aircraft. You can count 9 circular access holes for servicing the control linkages. On the right, towards the wing root is a rectangular hole. The H-1 had 3 circular holes here to access the wing mounted fuel tanks which were absent in the H-0's wing. You can just see the ailerons and rudder sitting on top of the wing.
(The above images are from here http://www.geocities.com/ta152uk/index.html (http://www.geocities.com/ta152uk/index.html) where there are more small images. He has some amazing 3000 x 3000 px shots of the engine, but nothing but pissy little, low-detail shots of the exterior surfaces :furious )
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-picture-requests/31532d1153685285-all-ta-152-pics-ta-152h1.jpg)
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-picture-requests/31529d1153685143-all-ta-152-pics-ta152_h-0_cockpit_3.jpg)
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-picture-requests/31536d1153692352-all-ta-152-pics-ta152h1-sketch.jpg)
(http://www.afwing.com/images/ta152/detail/Resize%20of%20Ta%20152_5.jpg)
(http://www.afwing.com/images/ta152/detail/Resize%20of%20Ta%20152_2.jpg)
(http://www.afwing.com/images/ta152/detail/Resize%20of%20Ta%20152_1.jpg)
(http://www.afwing.com/images/ta152/detail/Resize%20of%20Ta%20152_6.jpg)
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-pictures/6187d1116618241-ta-152-ta152_h-0_tail_3_300.jpg)
This isn't really useful at all but it is a great wallpaper:
http://www.stormbirds.net/calendar/StretchedtotheLimitTa152_12.jpg (http://www.stormbirds.net/calendar/StretchedtotheLimitTa152_12.jpg)
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#76 by JC: You mean RGB 160,178,181? That looks a lot like the one in the profile in the second post of the thread.. Really green. I've seen a few pics of a poster he's made, and I don't know if it's the lighting (daylight, high altitude clouds etc), but the #76 on that painting is a lot less saturated..
Those rivets on the D9 underwing look pretty much the same as on the D13 in Seattle:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3168/2623477201_a585676745_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3095/2624302508_82a08b70e0_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3168/2623477201_a585676745_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3026/2623475459_ab58c61ce1_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3140/2623480737_dc496a8046_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3247/2623481455_f61e356cbd_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3230/2624309778_a4d5cb20d3_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3170/2623488723_2b054fd2b4_o.jpg
Better lighting:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3056/2624287356_82bee8cb90_o.gif
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3238/2624281944_6537c76b38_o.gif
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3170/2624279802_4cc6256e3a_o.gif
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3284/2623450517_d3469b7794_o.gif
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3246/2624253976_1ae06ba436_o.gif
The majority of the rivets don't show up at all.. Only some really stand out, like the large ones at the tail extension.
Here's the missing panel/rivet patterns:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3216/2624314742_336e393444_o.png
Front to aft, you've got the four claws of DT rack, the inner part of the gear doors, the MK108 chute and 4 oval/elliptical somethings (dunno what) just left of it, a pair of latches for the 20mm's and inside of these are two more small rectangular panels (dunno what)... Then further back, just after the trailing edge of the wingroot, what I suppose is a ladder, another elliptical panel, and then the big GM1 access panel, with a radio part behind it that's probably not necessary to skin.. it's probably one of the antenna's already modeled in 3D.
The wingtop patterns:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3034/2623523703_647dabf74b_o.png
Nice wallpaper. You can really see the difference in the shape of the tail's cross section, almost square angles, compared to the round/oval shape we have.
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The shade of RLM 76 I've gone with is a bit lighter than that: RGB 182 194 192 which will end up looking like this once it's dirtied up a bit:
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/Skins/ahss3.jpg (http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/Skins/ahss3.jpg)
Thanks for posting those details up for me mate, I appreciate that.
If you're hanging around for another 30 minutes keep checking back here, I just scoured the JC book cover to cover and tried to get some of the best shots out of it. I'm just resizing them a little now (or else they'll all be 3500 px wide). I'll keep them at about 1200 or 1500, though, so they'll still be big.
I hope they turn out alright.
Stay tuned mate, I won't be long.
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Thanks :)
Small detail, click for the full res pic..
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3206/2624359782_5101a15356_o.png) (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2374/2350556334_900cd763cf_o.jpg)
This panel looks like it's raised.. Or maybe it's the lighting+weathering? I haven't seen this little bump modeled on any digital or scale model, so it's just a guess...
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That's interesting. I've have two or three other photos that show the upper surface of the 152's wings and I've never seen that before. :huh
Here are the images I got. I have to apologise for the way I got these shots digitized, I don't have a scanner at the moment. The details have been washed out a little but the bulk of what I noticed in the photos is still there.
One thing of note is that the surfaces of the horizontal stabilisers do not have rivets all over the surface. The rivets are only directly opposite the elevator surfaces. This is clearly visible in the picture with 'Strupip' the dog (9./JG 54's mascot). This is what has me concerned that there are not many rivets on the upper wing surfaces either.
There is also another photo (image name #s 12 and 13) that shows a D9's wings with no visible panel lines at all. The image is a little washed out on the computer but in the book it's much clearer. There is only the wing leading edge panel line that is visible and I can't see any rivets on that.
However, on that H0 photo I found tonight there are faint panel lines visible, so I'll go with that.
Anyway, I'd be interested to know what you make of these:
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/JCshots001.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/JCshots002.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/JCshots003.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/JCshots004.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/JCshots006.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/JCshots007.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/JCshots008.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/JCshots009.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/JCshots010.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/JCshots011.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/JCshots013.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/JCshots015.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/JCshots017.jpg
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Yeah it's pretty blurry, but I see what you mean.
JCshots006.jpg with Strupip matches the schematics - looks like only one line of medium sized rivets ought to be very visible near the outside end, and everything else is small rivets on the hstab only. I can't tell for sure, but I can't spot the lateral rivet line that should be on the hstab, just ahead of the leading edge of the vator. I guess these small sized rivets were really easily concealed under paint. Only the medium and larger rivets seem to be clearly visible at all times.
Then again #9 shows what should be small size rivets as a bit more contrasting, although it's still not very visible. Still a lot less contrasting than the default skin rivets. #3 is a bit more dark still, though it looks like it's only the outside of the rivet heads that are dark.
Looks like you didn't upload #12. 13 does look very homogeneous, barely any hint of the panels or their bends, or rivets. Same thing on #11. Same thing on #7 on the front end of the nose, and it looks like it's just a matter of how new the paint layer is.. On the same plane, further back on the fuselage, you can see the rivet lines more clearly.. On #6 you have both the barely visible rivets on the hstabs, and clearly visible ones on the tail surface in the background. Weathering on the rivets plays a big part.
Thanks for the pics, they're really good reference.
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Those images didn't come up nearly as clearly as I would have liked.
This particular image should be more clear now:
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/WWII/JCshots006rivets-1.jpg)
The black dots are the only visible rivets on the whole surface. The location of the dots is about 90% accurate, so it's enough to work off.
The black line is a faint panel line that I just drew over to enhance a little. The circular shape on the top right hand corner near the dogs paw is a circular depression with a raised, circular 'nipple' in the centre. It got cut off in the shot but my drawing is to pretty close to scale.
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Another tailpiece looking very smooth, with no immediately visible rivets..
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3011/2638911770_4704cd3da9_o.png
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Indeed.... almost as smooth as those Elton John sunnies! :rofl :lol
Nice pic, thanks, mate.
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Well.. no rivets standing out except for the column of larger rivets near the outside end of the hstab.. :)
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Yeah, it looks like my little drawing is correct. In your image you can (faintly) see those rivets run all the way parrallel to the elevator.
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My PC crashed and I still can't get the HDD with AH and the skin viewer and the WIP skin to work. It just doesn't get recognized even in the bootup BIOS screen. I'm pretty sure I should be able to retrieve everything if I give the drive to some technician who knows what he's doing, but in the mean time (till ~september when I move back to north america), I'm not touching the pc any more. It's just too flaky and I have important stuff to do with it that I can't afford to screw up.
Worst case scenario, I'll post the .psd here and let whoever finish it.
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(http://www.51hangar.net/skins/152_1.jpg)
(http://www.51hangar.net/skins/152_2.jpg)
(http://www.51hangar.net/skins/152_3.jpg)
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Looking good :) Nitpick (all you'll get at this point in development): Does the leading end of the wingtop above the flaps and of the ailerons have that much shade to them?
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I was just thinking about that. Since there is no joint there, only the bottom of the wing.
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Really great job Ken. Looks Hot! :aok
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Looking good :) Nitpick (all you'll get at this point in development): Does the leading end of the wingtop above the flaps and of the ailerons have that much shade to them?
Yeah I had that layer turned off and must have turned it back on when redoing the colors. I will just delete it! Thanks Guys.
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So what's up guys? Motherland, Xasthur, Krusty? Anyone else?
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Dragging my feet on it, no picture-worthy progress.
I've had sweet f-all time for AH in the last month at least. Probably the least amount I've played since I joined. All that research burned me out on the whole thing, so I've left it for a bit so that I can come back to actually doing the job with a fresh and keen mind.
:salute