Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: LePaul on May 27, 2008, 06:57:27 AM
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These ads have been running on TV here and they are spot on. Check the videos
http://www.unionfacts.com/
Disclaimer: I know there are a few good unions out there (Airline Pilots, etc)...but there's also some pretty bad ones too (Teamsters, etc).
Enjoy!
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Unions are an anachronism. Any company with a union probably deserves it.
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Oh great, a union-busting org. Not surprising since unions are a companys worst nightmare.
Imagine having your workers organize and force you to pay them what they are actually worth, force you to lay off new hires first, force you to provide an affordable health insurance plan and force you to provide a retirement that can actually be lived off of. The nerve of those union organizers! :rolleyes:
Of course there are bad apples in every barrel, but I can tell you this from experience:
I work in the aviation industry and I'm a member of the IAM&AW (International Association of Machinists & Aerospace Workers). This area is heavy with aviation industy, but ours is one of only 2 that is union. We are the highest paid and have the best insurance and retirement package along with job security. No coincidence.
Another bonus is it eliminates arse-kissers. Advances in pay and position are done by seniority. I'm sure you've been burnt in the past like I have seen in non-union shops.....see the boss's golfing buddy get promoted faster than people who've been there longer and know the job better.
The people in those videos are actors. Ask a real union member if union dues are so bad then how about getting rid of it? Then your pay can be slashed and your heath care cost skyrocket and you can do nothing about it. Those dues would not look so bad then.
Those ads are sponsored by companies. Angry employees could simply quit if they didn't like unions.........companies have no choice but to be fair and they hate that.
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Another bonus is it eliminates arse-kissers. Advances in pay and position are done by seniority. I'm sure you've been burnt in the past like I have seen in non-union shops.....see the boss's golfing buddy get promoted faster than people who've been there longer and know the job better.
It also eliminates the possibility of promoting based on competency. No more promoting the best worker.
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Unions are an anachronism. Any company with a union probably deserves it.
Very, very true. My first job out of college was running a freight dock for a unionized trucking company. I had some guys who could work their tails off and I had some who I wondered how they ever got hired on as a 'regular' employee. I had to treat them both the same and pay them both the same thanks to the union. That company is no longer in business in part due to over capacity in the industry but also because their cost of labor was too high.
The company v. union paradigm is what is the true anachronism. Both need to wake up and realize that unless they work together to make a profit they both will cease to exist.
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Imagine having your workers organize and force you to pay them what they are actually worth, force you to lay off new hires first, force you to provide an affordable health insurance plan and force you to provide a retirement that can actually be lived off of. The nerve of those union organizers!
Imagine your company going under due to labor costs of paying 100,000 a year to people with 8th grade educations, as well as funding their pension plan for the rest of their lives....imagine your company moving to Mexico :D
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Back in The Day (the 70s) I wrote pieces like that- admittedly mine were more liberal leaning, but the one thing an author needs is sheer gullibality in its audiance. This is a good example- it's alot easier to convince someone who's never been married, has no children, and lives in their Mother's basement that ten dollars an hour is a fair wage than it is to convince the guy with a wife and kids who has 20 years in his trade that ten dollars an hour is a fair wage.
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Another bonus is it eliminates arse-kissers. Advances in pay and position are done by seniority.
Seniority does not make somebody competent. I've seen more absolute morons promoted because of seniority than being a golf-buddy.
Any employee of mine that attempted to unionize will be looking for a new job within an hour. You're paid on what you produce for the company.
Fair compensation based on skill and merit... gee golly, who woulda thought it possible without corporate blackmail. :rolleyes: Commission. The greatest motivator ever.
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It also eliminates the possibility of promoting based on competency. No more promoting the best worker.
May be true in some cases, but in ours you must pass tests and have qualifications to even be able to apply for certain classifications.
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...funding their pension plan for the rest of their lives....
LOL, So do you think we should only offer a pension for the first 15 years of retirement? Say, til they're 75, and then cut them off?
A-MAZ-in'. :D
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LOL, So do you think we should only offer a pension for the first 15 years of retirement? Say, til they're 75, and then cut them off?
A-MAZ-in'. :D
Get a 401k like everyone else?
(Actually I was thinking of GM and their medical when I typed that, but 401k is the norm, rather than the exception nowadays)
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This is teh funny. I love propaganda. Especially when it's so exaggerated that it's cartoonish.
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I'm not saying it is a perfect system. You have to take the good with the bad. But looking at the big picture, I'm alot better off with it. By far. All I've got to do is look around at what else is in this area.
As far as forcing the company to move....unless Uncle Sam takes his aircraft maintenance to Mexico, I'm not sweating it. Competency? You decide:
Over the past 50 years, our local lodge Union workers have provided the maintenance and logistics to achieve over 9 million flight hours for our customer without a maintenance related accident.
Again, I'm not saying it's perfect or for everyone. You have to look at things in a case-by-case basis. No doubt ours fits here.
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I'm not saying it is a perfect system. You have to take the good with the bad.
Why do you have to take the good with the bad regarding Unions? Isn't that the exact same thing they're trying to prevent regarding the companies they pit against?
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The bottom line is the worker's right to organize. As was already stated, most businesses that go union deserve it. Take away the threat of the union, and businesses have no reason NOT to mistreat their employees. Read about the robber barons and the dawn of the industrial revolution. Those who do not learn from history are surely doomed to repeat it.
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... people with 8th grade educations...
The Pipefitters Union has a five year apprentice program, which includes completion of an AA degree in college. Anyone who thinks Union workers are unskilled is speaking from ignorance and helping to perpitrate anti-Union bias.... Kinda like those of you who claim Obama is a Muslim terrorist.
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This is teh funny. I love propaganda. Especially when it's so exaggerated that it's cartoonish.
Now now, the site has "Facts" in the name so all this stuff must be true.
I do find it interesting that they are hiding who runs the site.
shamus
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The Pipefitters Union has a five year apprentice program, which includes completion of an AA degree in college. Anyone who thinks Union workers are unskilled is speaking from ignorance and helping to perpitrate anti-Union bias.... Kinda like those of you who claim Obama is a Muslim terrorist.
If I needed pipefitters for my company it would be in my best interest to train my own employees and to pay them a good wage to ensure I took full advantage of that training for as long as I could. My pipefitters would not have to pay union dues though.
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Why do you have to take the good with the bad regarding Unions? Isn't that the exact same thing they're trying to prevent regarding the companies they pit against?
By that statement, I mean that like everything else in this world, nothing is perfect. It is not going to be a win-win for the company and the union. You have to look at the overall picture for a given situation.
Sluggish gets it! :aok
It is your RIGHT to have a voice in areas regarding your livelyhood, stability and ability to provide for your family and enjoy a comfortable retirement without threats, mistreatment and intimidation.
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It is your RIGHT to have a voice in areas regarding your livelyhood, stability and ability to provide for your family and enjoy a comfortable retirement without threats, mistreatment and intimidation.
:lol Never worked in Texas have you?
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Unions, the means for workers to organize and extort more money from their employers than they are actually worth. The American auto industry has basically been destroyed by them. Anyoen who is pro-union has no problem taking money from peopled when they are not entitled by it. Pro union people are among the most destructive elements to our economy, a blight, pond scum.
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"Actually being paid what they're worth"
Paid what they are worth my arse.
Maybe be true in some sectors but very rarely all.
Garbage collectors at $20 per hour come to mind
But to add to that I'll give you a little story
May also shed some light on where your state money goes
Several years ago I was contacted by a GC about painting the exteriour one of our states public incarceration facilities.
Commonly known around here as "The Workhouse"
When we met he told me I was going to have to pay my workers the union wage of a minimum of $40 per hour. Per state regulations.
$40 per hour?? At that time Even I wasnt charging that much for myself let alone paying workers that much.
Even now I wouldnt pay a worker that much unless it was by peicework.
So I figured out the price and handed it in.
In the end I hear he ended up going with the brother of someone his wife knew (which is typically the case when dealing with Gov contracts)
But the estimate came out to nearly twice what the state would have had to pay me if they didint have to follow those regulations about paying union wages.
I know quite a few "union" construction workers
Near as I can tell. Union Painters,Carpenters,Electricians. Are all paid about 1/3 to 2 times more then they are worth outside the union. And that not even including the benifits. which would drive those costs higher.
And trypically. I've seen more incompetence, and lack of overall knowlege in their professions. Then in the private sector.
Painters and Carpenters in particular.
Few years ago we had a "union" painter come work with us. Oh yea. 15 years experience. "Union" card,OSHA Card and everything.
Swore he as going to be worth all kinds of money.
Sucker couldnt even hack it a week with me. I swore if I had to say to him "WTF Are you doing??" Or "pick up the pace" one more time I was going to just shoot him to put him out of my misery.
Fortunately he quit on his own. Last I heard he also failed with 3 other contractors that I know before finally going back with the "union"
Dont give me that crap about being paid what they are worth.
Thas just a cutsie line of rhetoric unions liek to throw out there to gain support from their workers.
Its teh rare bird I've ever met that actually feels they are getting paid what they are worth no matter how much they make.
It may be true in some cases. But in many more they are by far paid more then they are worth.
On the flip side I know of a few places that are in dire need of a union St Peters Medical Center where I used to work is one of them.
If your not a doctor or if you dont reside in an executive desk job on the first floor of the MOB (medical office Building) Or unless you are VERY well politically connected to someone in a position of power.
You might as well wear an outfit that says "American Standard" on it because they will take a wizz on you at every opportunity.
Its no small wonder how the place is in trouble.
Anyone with any skill, or with a working brain. Leaves.
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The best company I ever worked for had no union. They had profit sharing though. Best incentive for all to work together.
The worst company I ever worked for had a union > UAW/Aerospace.
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The bottom line is the worker's right to organize. As was already stated, most businesses that go union deserve it. Take away the threat of the union, and businesses have no reason NOT to mistreat their employees. Read about the robber barons and the dawn of the industrial revolution. Those who do not learn from history are surely doomed to repeat it.
True there once was a time when such orginasations were very much needed.
The way labor laws work now..Not so much
There is still some room for them. But its not the dire need it once was.
Labor laws have pretty much caught up.
Try starting a legal buisiness that has employees and see all the fun hoops you have to pass through. Minimum wages. Minimum insirance. Unemployment, etc etc etc
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Unions are part (only part) of the reason we have "Made In China" stamped on everything here and illegal aliens being hired. Scumbag retailers are the other reason. If a labor union wanted to loan me the money to start a plant or just give me a grant, i could consider a contract with them. Unions take no risk, they just extort money and leech off those who do.
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OK I get it, the union is teh suk. Since we have all these laws to protect us, why not just do away with the workers right to organize? Because, you know, as long as people have the right to band together and "extort" their employers, there will be other people complaining about cost of goods, destruction of industry, manipulated payscales, etc...
I'll say it again, most businesses that go union have got it coming to them. If most employees are content with their pay and working conditions, why would they organize?
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I'll say it again, most businesses that go union have got it coming to them. If most employees are content with their pay and working conditions, why would they organize?
Because they want money they are not entitled to. uhhh extortion, already covered.
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i don't really know too much about unions, as i've never worked at any type of union shop. from all i've seen, heard, talked with union people(the workers, not the office workers), the biggest problem seems to be the security of the positions. it seems that once you're in, you're in. period. the employer cannot fire you if you don't do your job well, or correctly,. they can't fire you for screwing off on the job, whereas in non union, if that was a habbit, you'd be gone. like i said though, this is what i hear.
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I'll say it again, most businesses that go union have got it coming to them. If most employees are content with their pay and working conditions, why would they organize?
Hmmm, gee... lets pretend I run a union. You have 1,000 employees. Lets say dues are a cheap $100/month ($500+ is not unheard of). That's $100,000 a month, and $1.2 million a year in dues. Now imagine that it's Wal-Mart, with 5 million employees and those same Union dues... That's 6 billion dollars per year. Do you really think it's "for the good of the workers!" or that somebody has a seriously vested interest in securing that revenue stream?
Parasites.
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The past eight years have seen an unprecented assault on organized labor by the Bush Administration. The website our "author" has linked to implies labor unions are running rampant, and it is for this reason- and this reason ONLY- our economy, and our manufacturing jobs, are declining.
Not surprisingly, some of you actually believe that if a slick, bright and shiny website tells you something is true it proves it; yet in reality all it proves is some people are attracted to bright and shiny objects.
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Because they want money they are not entitled to. uhhh extortion, already covered.
So every group of employees that bands together is trying to extort an innocent, helpless employer? This is an extremely narrow and incorrect view.
The UAW of the 1960s and 1970s did a horrible job of protecting its members and promoting itself. I am ashamed to admit that my father was and is a member of local 569 (at one time the worlds largest local).
However, I am quite proud of the fact that my great-grandfather participated in the Great Sit-Down Strike in 1936. It needed to be done.
The fact of the matter is this: Very few employers pay their workforce what it's worth. They pay the workforce what they have to to retain them.
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So every group of employees that bands together is trying to extort an innocent, helpless employer? This is an extremely narrow and incorrect view.
The fact of the matter is this: Very few employers pay their workforce what it's worth. They pay the workforce what they have to to retain them.
The FACT is this, a workforce is worth what it costs to retain them and not a penny more. Any attempt to justify paying them more than this is false, wrong, incorrect. If a worker is worth more than he is getting paid, there is an employer somewhere that is paying that amount. You are wrong.
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The FACT is this, a workforce is worth what it costs to retain them and not a penny more. Any attempt to justify paying them more than this is false, wrong, incorrect. If a worker is worth more than he is getting paid, there is an employer somewhere that is paying that amount. You are wrong.
So it's OK for employers through collusion to keep the costs of labor down, but it's not OK for employees to organize to better their wages?
Uh...OK.
And BTW- EVERY workers' benefit we have today- 40 hour work weeks, safety in the workplace- came about because of organized labor.
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So it's OK for employers through collusion to keep the costs of labor down, .
No, that's criminal. Denied
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No, that's criminal. Denied
So you agree that the worker's right to organize should not be infringed...
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So you agree that the worker's right to organize should not be infringed...
no, I said it's criminal for companies to work in collusion to fix wages. This thought never considers workers. how did you get to that conclusion or are you just desperate to make some point?
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Frankly, I loved the videos. I thought they were comic genius.
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no, I said it's criminal for companies to work in collusion to fix wages. This thought never considers workers. how did you get to that conclusion or are you just desperate to make some point?
So how do you propose to prevent companies from doing this?
(I'm not desperate for anything just confused as to how someone who seems to be intelligent can be so naive of the workings of the world)