Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Anaxogoras on June 03, 2008, 04:23:43 AM
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Well, do you use them or not? On the suggestion of a squad mate I tried turning them off today and my gunnery % dropped in half over 6 measly kills (compared to my ~11% over last tour). Should I keep practicing with tracers until I really don't need them? Or is this something that takes a whole tour to get used to?
thank you
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to each there own
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Never used them, even when I use to fly Pony B's and Tiffies years ago. And definetly not in the Yak.
<S>...-Gixer
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I always have my own, so I can walk my rounds. I have them on and off, it doesn't seem to much of a different, except for maybe 600 yards + where I have to walk my rounds. I'm usually around 12% on accuracy.
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I had them on, then off for about two tours, then back on. I like being able to see my stuff. Let's me take some longer range shots. Plus you can scare people in to doing things with them on. Though using a field gun with tracers off is funny as hell!!
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Off.
I used to have them on, but I found myself depending on them.
I switched them off and it took a while but my gunnery improved. I think I'm actually landing more hits without tracers and it's definitely more surprising for the enemy if they cannot see how much you're missing :lol
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<- Usually on.
If I keep tracers off for prolonged time, my hit% will hide in the basement after a few days.
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I keep mine off 95% of the time. I only turn them on if im in a WW or a field ack. Turning them off surprisingly helps your hit %. Only difference is you need to get a little closer before you start shooting at them. Half the time if their not paying attention i could pick them off before they even have time to react. Ive had my tracers off for about 5-6 months now, it just takes some time to get use to it.
As Wolfalla explained to me the tracer round has a different velocity then a non-tracer round, and the tracer rounds miss the planes and you only see the non-tracer rounds hit. One thing that helps me is i use my page up button on my keyboard, i eve have it mapped to one of my hat switches. When i dive or get into a turn fight with someone it always helps me to see them better if i page up.
=S=
VansCrew
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I keep mine off 95% of the time. I only turn them on if im in a WW or a field ack. Turning them off surprisingly helps your hit %.
It may help your hit%, put that doesn't work for everyone.
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Tracers on/off don't matter much for a vultch-tard like vans....
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Well the rounds hitting the runway are kind of like tracers anyway :aok
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Come into the TA, turn tracers off, turn lead computing gunsight on.
Practise, and continue to practise every day for a week.
Then load up one of the good offline missions. (Baumers missions rock)
Fly it once with tracers off, and once with them on.
Once you really learn to shoot without tracers, you'll find they are just in the way.
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Come into the TA, turn tracers off, turn lead computing gunsight on.
Practise, and continue to practise every day for a week.
Then load up one of the good offline missions. (Baumers missions rock)
Fly it once with tracers off, and once with them on.
Once you really learn to shoot without tracers, you'll find they are just in the way.
I did that at three different occasions during my AH career.
It did not work.
Every time I did it, I was fine first. I had no trouble hitting with the same accuracy the first sorties. But gradually, but steadily, my ability to hit began to decline, instead of improving as one may think. After a few days constant practice / fighting without tracers, I'm almost not able to hit anything anymore. It's getting worse from sortie to sortie.
It seems I definitely need the tracer feedback to keep my "mental image" necessary for gunning. And I guess i'm not the only one, so I am opposing the generalization "Tracers off will help you". It may, or it may not.
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i turned them off after a month or so, acc went up and ammo usage down :aok
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I'm usually around 12% on accuracy.
lolz, shooting planes on the ground or a (5th plane in) cherry pick doesn't take great gunnery, but looks like you've had alot of practice! :aok
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I keep them on, for the sake of scaring the cons off my m8tes 6. I often change my ride model also, which doesn't help getting used to no tracers.
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I never found a need to turn them off ... :confused:
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I never found a need to turn them off ... :confused:
That's because toolsheds don't try to evade!
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I never found a need to turn them off ... :confused:
Well it adds a surprise factor. If your target starts to evade your lack of tracers can turn against you.
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In my opinion, it's 50-50...just your preference.
Mine are always on, but my convergence is set close so when I hit, I hit hard. I seldom take the shot over 400 yds, with 400 yds being my MAXIMUM firing solution against fighters. So, for me, tracers off makes little difference. An old squaddies once said to me, "Get close and it doesn't matter if they're on or off...they're [the opponent] going to die anyway."
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I've had tracers on and off, I leave my tracers off just simply I adapted to where my guns are aimed and know where they are going to hit.
No problems hitting targets 4/600 yards away. Yes I use more ammo, and accuracy decreases, but kill count is still as high as Tracers on.
IMO - Choose what you like.
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Turned my tracers back on and scared the bejezzus outa me when I squeezed the trigger. Really takes getting USE to tracers after they been off for a while. But the gunnery ability was infinately better. Course that ain't saying much but for what it's worth............ :rock
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I've never subscribed to the "turn your tracers off to improve your gunnery" idea. Sure, once you've learned to hit consistantly it may not matter whether you have them on or off, and I suppose I could gain 2-3 kills per month if I turned them off for "stealth" purposes. Honestly though, when I shoot at someone I simply don't care whether they know I'm shooting or not...
But for someone trying to actually improve on their hit% I think the tracers are too important to turn them off.
With them on, you can miss your target and see "ah, I missed behind him, I need to lead more the next time I have a shot like that..."
With them off, you miss your target and see "ah, I missed him! Next time I'll aim higher or lower, or lead him more or lead him less or lead him more and aim higher or lead him more and aim lower... and I might actually pick the right option and actually hit him!" Or "Maybe I did everything right, but my convergence is wrong?" Or "Maybe the only people in the game who can make a shot like that are using an Aimbot?"
With tracers on it's easy to see consistant errors (Drat! I ALWAYS miss behind my target!) and adjust to correct the problem. With them off, you'll see that you miss, but have no idea where you're shooting... Ghosth's idea of using the Lead Computing Gunsight works because it supplies the needed feedback which is missing w/o the tracers turned on. If you felt there was a benefit to having them off, you could try learning this way.
Learning to shoot is just that, LEARNING. How do you learn with no feedback showing you whether you're on the right track? As a past shooting sports instructor I can say that a "students" target gives a lot of information that can be used to accelerate the learning process. That's because we can see the misses (non bullseye hits) and form strategies to turn them into hits (bullseye's). If I suspended a golf ball 20 feet off the ground and let my students shoot at that, it would be much more difficult to see patterns that lead to misses and to correct them. Of course, if I let them use tracer rounds to shoot at that suspended ball I could say "Look! See that? You're shooting low, aim a bit higher!"
Tracer round ammo doesn't have the same ballistics as the "normal" rounds? So what. It still gives us a "ballpark" answer. At least it's a "hint". Even when we teach people to shoot skeet that "ballpark" answer is enough to go by. Having an experienced shooter watch over your shoulder supplies feedback, or even watching the wad gives a basic answer even though its flight is obviously different than the shot column. Seeing the wad fly consistantly behind the clay target gives a hint that you may need to increase your lead.
Without feedback of some sort we're left with the old standby- "Use the Force, Luke!"
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I think it comes down to personal preference, I fall on the "tracers off" category. I found that I was aiming with the tracers not the gun sight which was causing me to waste a lot of ammo. I turned them off and my gunnery took a dive but after a few days it started to creep back up.
Of course the first thing I ran into after I turned them off was a 262 that I had a great shot set up on and I blew the shot because I wasn't used to not seeing the tracer rounds. :)
I can also say that I hate running into an opponent who isn't using tracers, I like to be able to see when and where the bad guy is shooting during an engagement.
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Could someone tell me were you check your accuracy.
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Don't see a great advantage to turning tracers off, even if you can hit equally as well than with them on. Given that the most common situation where this is even an issue is when getting on a bandit's 6 o'clock. Sure, once in awhile you'll surprise someone who didn't think you were shooting yet from their 6, but I figure most good pilots, once you get on their 6 aren't going to wait for you to fire anyway and will manuever constantly to spoil your guns solution, tracers or not.
Further, as someone mentioned, using a burst of tracers on some pilots gets them to do the darnedest things, which usually blows their E and sets you up for a deep 6 shot at some point.
And finally, tracers off just doesn't work for me because I'm an angles (think billiards) shooter. I always double tap two bursts in a turn fight with deflection shots. The first, really quick 1/4 sec burst gives me an angle visual between my rounds' trajectory and the bandit's flight path, then with an almost unconscious adjustment (if necssary) the a rapid second, longer burst is for the kill.
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to each there own
Shouldn't that be "their"? Doesn't speak well for the AZ education system.
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Tracers off. I love surprising my squaddies during training duels. :D
One of the biggest drawbacks to tracers is that while YOU may know about where you're shooting, so does your opponent. I'll often use my opponent's tracers as a guide to know exactly where to position myself to stay out of his bullet stream. And using tracers to spook an opponent only works if he's real inexperienced or REAL fixated, as a good or wary opponent will have already picked up your position and range well before you squeeze the trigger.
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Well, do you use them or not? On the suggestion of a squad mate I tried turning them off today and my gunnery % dropped in half over 6 measly kills (compared to my ~11% over last tour). Should I keep practicing with tracers until I really don't need them? Or is this something that takes a whole tour to get used to?
thank you
Flying with tracers off will force you to learn how to lead with your gunsight rather than with your tracers. It usually takes about a week or so to get used to having the tracers off.
ack-ack
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I fly with the tracers off. When I started I flew with them on, but found that when they are turned off I am shooting to a spot rather than at the plane. It takes some getting used to as a lot of people have said, but I like it better. It is still a matter of preference though.
<<S>>
Spazz
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Could someone tell me were you check your accuracy.
You can find your fighter hit% in your scores (On this website: Community -> Scores -> Pilot Score)
But you should be aware that not only pure aiming skill influences that number, but also what kind of planes you fly, what you did attack (killing bombers boosts your hit%) and even what style you are flying.
So if you want to check your progress, better fly the same plane for a while.
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I leave them on. I like to see where my bullets are going. I was ~20% hit rate last camp.
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Wow, thank you for so many informed responses. I like ghosth's idea of trying to the computing gunsight in the TA, partly because I've never tried it at all! :o
Ditto to the one who said they don't like it when their opponent is not using tracers.
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... also (assuming its modelled properly) it should give you 25% more useful ammo too. eg. 240 20mm in a spit vs 192 + 48 tracers. got to be good :)
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... also (assuming its modelled properly) it should give you 25% more useful ammo too. eg. 240 20mm in a spit vs 192 + 48 tracers. got to be good :)
:huh
Why should tracer ammo have been "not useful" ?
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I did that at three different occasions during my AH career.
It did not work.
Every time I did it, I was fine first. I had no trouble hitting with the same accuracy the first sorties. But gradually, but steadily, my ability to hit began to decline, instead of improving as one may think. After a few days constant practice / fighting without tracers, I'm almost not able to hit anything anymore. It's getting worse from sortie to sortie.
It seems I definitely need the tracer feedback to keep my "mental image" necessary for gunning. And I guess i'm not the only one, so I am opposing the generalization "Tracers off will help you". It may, or it may not.
Huh sounds almost exactly like my experience with tracers off. :noid
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... also (assuming its modelled properly) it should give you 25% more useful ammo too. eg. 240 20mm in a spit vs 192 + 48 tracers. got to be good :)
Someone isn't thinking correctly.
I thought tracers were normal rounds but with paint on the actual bullet. Therefore, they do damage just as a "normal" round would.
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Tracer rounds do have an incendiary property to them, what it is escapes me at the moment (possibly a Tungsten coating, not sure). I wouldn't imagine them being any less effective than normal rounds. If anything, I'd imagine them to be -more- effective. An incendiary round hitting a fuel tank = *pop*. As far as the game's ballistic properties of the rounds, I can't think of any reason to model the tracers differently.
ie. they're the same bullets.
a8toof
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aren't tracer rounds just regular rounds coated with phosphorous?
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Flying with tracers off will force you to learn how to lead with your gunsight rather than with your tracers. It usually takes about a week or so to get used to having the tracers off.
ack-ack
I agree. Just as turning off your gunsight would force you to learn how to lead with your tracers rather than your sight. I just don't see the benefit to learning that is greater than using your tracers. From a technical standpoint, your sight only shows you where your bullets would hit if you fire while your wings are straight and level, at 1G, and fire at a target at the same distance as your convergence. ANY deviation from that will make your bullets hit somewhere other than where your sight would lead you to believe. So for the vast majority of shots fired in the MA, the gunsight is not telling the "truth". Using your sight while inverted, for example, should make your bullets hit 6-10 FEET low, even "at convergence" while using the tracers to direct your rounds onto the target still works fine inverted...
The tracers still give a basic idea of where your rounds are going, regardless of your planes attitude, G-load, etc. This would seem to show the tracers should be more helpful than a gunsight.
I actually tend to ignore the sight AND the tracers while I shoot, and concentrate on the target instead. When I have trouble hitting, I tend to watch the tracers and adjust accordingly. This seems to work well, especially considering I generally need to move my sight OFF the target in order to get my tracers and other rounds ON the target.
Interesting discussion...
MtnMan
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I mix it up, I turn them off almost always when I'm in a field ack. Not sense in giving your position away. I also like to turn them off in the WW. That way they don't think you are shooting at them. In a plane it just depends. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.
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Without the tracers in the picture you begin to get a feel for what sight pictures will yield results. It's not a matter of whether the tracers actually would fly to where the piper is during manuvers, but more of the notion that I know if I place the piper in this certain point in space relative to the target I know I'll score hits.
When you start to memorize these sight pictures it more or less takes away the need to use the tracer. I will get to where I think I need to be, fire a quick burst to see if I get hits, if I do I hammer off a longer burst to get the kill, if I don't I move the piper based on whether I think I'm ahead or behind the target and fire another burst. It's really the same process if the tracers where there. I get a feel for the lead required and you start to recognize scenarios when you see them and know where to put the piper to get results.
With that in mind and the benefits of not giving away your position if the target is unaware (I'm a bad shot so this is a big plus for me) and how annoying I find it to fight someone who doesn't use tracers I don't really see any reason to use them. I think it really comes down to personal preference, try it one way then the other, just make sure to stick to it for a couple weeks at least I'd say to really see which one you perfer.
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That's because toolsheds don't try to evade!
:furious
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Without the tracers in the picture you begin to get a feel for what sight pictures will yield results.
No.
Without the tracers I will gradually lose my feel, until I cant't hit anything anymore after a week.
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Well it adds a surprise factor. If your target starts to evade your lack of tracers can turn against you.
Well ... I don't usually use the "surprise" tactic(s) ... I am more of an "I'm right here" .. in your face kind of flyer.
Plus with the tracers flying by ... you can also see them squirming in their seats which usually results in a "panic" move which is usually the wrong move that leads to their demise.
I sight with both the pipper and with the tracers ... so I get the best of both worlds.
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Tracers on/off don't matter much for a vultch-tard like vans....
Amen!!!! but its all about the score as if it realy matters how u rank :confused:
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Mtn,
I think it should be pointed out a LOT may depend on gunsight, used too. While none of our aircraft have much in the way of a true HUD, there's a lot more valuable information you can get from the right sight that can help you aim without tracers. Some sights IMO are just better than others. They'll all do the job, but some, especially the simple pipper-only or ring-and-pipper leave you with a lot of guesswork, while others give you a LOT of information.
(http://saxman.xwlegacy.net/AcesHigh/Mk.8.png)
This is my favorite sight. At a glance you can get your wing attitude and lift vector which gives you a rough estimate of the path of your bullet stream during maneuvers; basic ranging if you know your target's approximate wingspan; and rough lead-computing using the notches above and below the cross (plus ordinance aiming if you REALLY want to get technical with your dive angle, altitude and airspeed during bombing and rocket attacks). I'm not sure what the two angled lines mean, but this seems to match up with the K-14 sight's ground attack mode, so may have an application in ground attack (range finding?). However above the cross there's gaps in the rings at the same angles, so they may work with the vertical and horizontal cross-hair as a rough bank indicator.
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Off.
To me, the smoke and lights from tracer are distracting and can be a visual obstruction to my view of the target. I find them a tactical disadvantage - I don't want anybody to know they are being shot at until I'm landing a stream of hits. If I want to frighten somebody, I'll ping them.
Fly enough with them off and (hopefully) everything becomes very instinctive. It's very satisfying when you seem to consistantly squeeze off the perfect, one second deflection burst and watch them all land home.
Unfortunately, AH films look very boring without tracer.
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Mtn,
I think it should be pointed out a LOT may depend on gunsight, used too. While none of our aircraft have much in the way of a true HUD, there's a lot more valuable information you can get from the right sight that can help you aim without tracers. Some sights IMO are just better than others. They'll all do the job, but some, especially the simple pipper-only or ring-and-pipper leave you with a lot of guesswork, while others give you a LOT of information.
(http://saxman.xwlegacy.net/AcesHigh/Mk.8.png)
This is my favorite sight. At a glance you can get your wing attitude and lift vector which gives you a rough estimate of the path of your bullet stream during maneuvers; basic ranging if you know your target's approximate wingspan; and rough lead-computing using the notches above and below the cross (plus ordinance aiming if you REALLY want to get technical with your dive angle, altitude and airspeed during bombing and rocket attacks). I'm not sure what the two angled lines mean, but this seems to match up with the K-14 sight's ground attack mode, so may have an application in ground attack (range finding?). However above the cross there's gaps in the rings at the same angles, so they may work with the vertical and horizontal cross-hair as a rough bank indicator.
I'll agree that those fancy sights may help with ground attack, but for AvA the best I've found is the simple little dot. The rangefinding idea is neat, but in reality at the ranges I shoot rangefinding ability isn't of any real benefit to me. I get close, and then a bit closer. When the target's big I shoot.
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Regarding the element of surprise, if you actually HIT on the first burst with tracers on their done anyway. All it takes is a little patience.
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large sights just get in the way IMO, I use a small dot as default with tracers on, but I'm no reference.
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Didn't know we had a gyro lead-computing gunsight in AH - where can I get it?
:pray
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only can be enabled offline or in the training arena,
I'm same as nuke use the borsight for everything with tracers on. Only shoot when I know they are dead.
If you would like saxman's US one PM me your email and i'll send you the whole "extra" pack.
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Didn't know we had a gyro lead-computing gunsight in AH - where can I get it?
:pray
In the Training Arena or Offline ... it's not available in the Main Arenas.
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Why should tracer ammo have been "not useful" ?
"not as useful", and 25% is waay overstating it for a few reasons.
I was basing this on 4:1 HE:AP-T. against a soft-skinned target (fighter) HE rounds are surely more effective than AP, so 5xHE rounds will be better than 4xHE + 1xAP-T. I forgot that the usual mix was 50:50 HE/AP, so without tracers you get 12.5% more HE rounds, a useful increase (although not a 12.5% increase in hitting power.) also AP-T rounds will be less effective than straight AP rounds because they are depleted to some degree (fully at 800yd?) so will have less KE when they hit the target, pretty marginal though.
so IRL removing tracers should improve the cannons effectiveness against fighters. IIRC AH models shells as an average of their damage capability (ie if the mix is 50:50 HE/AP each round is effectively 50%HE 50%AP.) by "modelled correctly" I mean that removing tracers should improve the average damage capability of the shells.
:)
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imo the less junk you have on your screen in air vs air the better.
my fav gunsight for ava is (http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb158/rckard/dotty.jpg)
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Using a simple dot myself, only the 190F and B-25H are using a special gunsight for PB-1 rockets and long range 75mm gun shooting.
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i had mine off for long time...but seeming how i dont play as much as i used to my gunnery is off. so till i get it back i have turned them back on. i hate it though. with them off i get less stick stirring goin on when i'm on someones 6.
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No.
Without the tracers I will gradually lose my feel, until I cant't hit anything anymore after a week.
YRMV of course, I'm speaking from my experience, which I know I wasn't a unique one. I've talked to other people who described the conversion in similar fashion. Just as I'm sure if this thread keeps going someone will pipe up with similar experiences to you.
Like I said when it's all said and done it's really just personal preference.
Have to agree on the gun sight choice though, simple dot on the plexiglass for most planes.
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Haven't read this whole thread. Skimmed.
Seems to be a recurring comment about tracers not even firing where the rest of the bullets do.
I think that's a gross over-statement of the facts. Tracers were a little different, but not to the point THEY would fly higher than the rest of the bullets. We're talking a % of difference small enough that even the random dispersion of same-type rounds would have the same variation.
In-game there is no difference between tracers on and off. Practically, in real life, there wasn't much difference. If you aimed properly, the rounds hit the target.
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As Wolfalla explained to me the tracer round has a different velocity then a non-tracer round, and the tracer rounds miss the planes and you only see the non-tracer rounds hit.
This is true, mostly because the tracer rounds have a different weight but this only happens outside of AH.
As I was told, tracer rounds in AH have the same ballistic characteristics as non-tracer rounds and there is no difference in lethality between 2 different aircraft using tracers on/off.
That said, I had to turn off tracers long ago when I was flying with a bad video card and the smoke trails killed my frame rate. +Dead/Lev/Cilky was still around at the time and he said was many have said here 'you'll lead with your nose, rather than the tracers'. It has worked for me, my hit % is low but firing on stuff at 800+ out can do that to you, luckily I have the ammo to spare in my P38. Then again, I don't care about stats anyway...
As I see it, the only benefit for having tracers on is to scare someone into turning or to make a better looking film.
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I'd like to see more flexibility with tracer options.
First: ability to set by individual plane.
Second: Ability to set by gun "bank." IE, set no tracers to primaries on a given aircraft and tracers in the secondaries, etc.
Both would be VERY easy to do just by making it a gun package loadout option in the hangar
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I'd like to see more flexibility with tracer options.
First: ability to set by individual plane.
Second: Ability to set by gun "bank." IE, set no tracers to primaries on a given aircraft and tracers in the secondaries, etc.
Both would be VERY easy to do just by making it a gun package loadout option in the hangar
That's a pretty good idea.
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Well it adds a surprise factor. If your target starts to evade your lack of tracers can turn against you.
That's actually a good thing in some cases, ie a k4 with a 30mm gun. A lot easier to hit them than dead 6.
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Tracers on/off don't matter much for a vultch-tard like vans....
:aok
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That's actually a good thing in some cases, ie a k4 with a 30mm gun. A lot easier to hit them than dead 6.
Same deal with the 37mm, sometimes I will ping them at 400 with the MG just so I can lob in a bigger round when they turn and close the gap to 200. Great thing about the 37 you can see the round anyway with tracers off.
<S>...-Gixer