Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Sled on June 07, 2008, 12:29:22 AM
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Or did I miss some new rule change?
Just because fields open for us to let people man the ship guns for the sea battle. Does not mean the FSO is now a "free for all" and you can go and up anything that is available!
:furious
You only get ONE AC in FSO.
unless it is specifically stated, that your plane, is available for second life. (B5N for example)
Just because the fields will let you up another AC does not mean it is OK to do so. :furious
(Please note, I am yelling here)
There is no excuse for people doing this, it is the most basic rule of FSO.
I will look at the logs, see how bad it was. I hope most of the offending pilots ditched their AC, when told to.
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Yeah, saw the logs just now and noted many players upping a 2nd, 3rd even 4 times. :huh
Please, lock them out of the FSO arena for the remainder of the event. It's the only way people will learn. Better yet, code the life limit into the game.
One guy upped 8 times, I think we have a winner! :rofl
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All COs and XOs of the squad need to start relaying the objectives and rules to their squad mates. The rules noted in the objectives specifically mentioned this is a one life event with only two exceptions.
1) B5N2 pilots get a second life.
2) Dead pilots may spawn once in a PT boat for the surface naval battle.
I am willing to overlook those people who spawned in a PT boat twice because this was something new and was a bit awkward (plus at least on the Axis side at fleet C28 there was a bozo on the CA who was firing and killing allied PTs) and their was confusion. But as Sled says when it comes to aircraft second lifes except when specifically noted it is ONE whether the fields are open or not!!!
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The Severest of penalties, and I dont mean points, should be leveled on those who broke the rules. This has to stop. And it is getting worse with the growing population, as Sled pointed out in Last nights, State of the FSO address.
It's not just the upping the second fighter that is wrong, but when this happens, escpecially in large numbers, the whole Frame is FUBAR. There is no way to accurately measure and penalize, the impact these illegal planes are having across the battlefield. It's more than kills and deaths, as there can be numerous consequential outcomes due directly to these infractions.
Bad form, and a big Boo to the violaters. :mad:
EDIT: I would add, I bet the vast majority here would prefer playing with 400 guys and gals following the rules, then 500 with people running amok and soiling the Operation.
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Wow I was expecting a couple people and those to be guys who were new.. There are oodles of people who upped twice, three or even four times.. and they are people who should be able to READ.
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I am running filters. There were definitely violations but we need to filter the logs and dig into it. If you weren't on the Axis side you probably don't know or didn't see it .. but a lot of the Axis forces launched from the CVs. There were a lot of crashes, etc. caused by so many planes launching at the CVs.
I am filter the logs now to parse out who crashed, ditched, dumped in the opening 15 window versus who upped when the fields were open for the naval surface action.
Believe me I am not at all happy over this. I added in the naval surface action to give something for dead pilots to do and to test that aspect of the game (DDs having guns) without affect the frame. Many people upped multiple PTs .. I can overlook that since the surface action was awkward and confusing (imo) it being the first time run.
The additional plane launches are a different matter.
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Just give a shout GD, if you need or want help sorting logs, or anything I can do to assist you.
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Yeah our squad had some people talking about loadouts and things of that sort for their next flight. :huh Also it stunk that one of our squads leaders had left after he died and the other one was working with talking to other squads we were with and so me and and a few other guys who had done FSO before talked them out of it.
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If the AH code gave the CM team more tools, this might not be an issue. Nudge nudge wink wink.
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I will formally apologize for my misunderstanding of the ONE PT boat rule in the Fleet Battle for my squad (graceful way of saying I just didn't read that line of the rules I guess :frown:). No excuse, I missed it, therefore my group didn't know either.
On the other hand, we made it off the CV first time with no issues :D
:salute
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Have to agree here 110%
Unless it is a simple mistake like upping at a wrong field, towering, moving to correct field, the re-upping (it happens) then anyone who did not follow the rules and re-upped multiple times should simply have their score set to 0 and that also deducted from their squad score. I image keeping up with the logs and scores are hard enough without these people who most of the time are just flat too damn lazy to read the rules screwing things up for the rest of us.
If these particular people keep screwing up or their squads fail to make sure they know the rules it should be considered banning them from the FSO's till they get their act together.
Agree with someone eles post - most would rather play the FSO's with a core group that follow the rules than with a "Hord" that just causes trouble.
:salute
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My plane leaving chicago was delayed last night so i was not able to make FSO, so my XO was in charge.
This morning i checked logs and noticed that a pilot in my squad upped a few times.
I am sorry for the incident, this was the first time and last time that pilot will fly with us.
Also he started this after everyone in the squad landed and left for the night.
I understand if you guys kick my squad out of FSO.
CHAPPY
CO- JG2 RICHTHOFEN
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I stopped counting at 60. I pity those of you having to go through the logs.
Just read through the rules again. The rules were pretty simple- you couldn't have made it much clearer. One life is one life, one additional life is one additional life. Punish those who won't read or follow the rules, or they will be the only ones left flying these events. Ban them from the rest of the event, and remove all points earned by their squads. Even the logs won't show the effect they have in any engagement. Make some examples.
Oh, and good luck. ;)
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I understand the rules and will take responsibility for my squad.
Let me know if you want me to pull my squad out of FSO or ban my squad.
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Yeah things seem to be going from bad to worse since the explosion in the FSO population, I'm seeing more and more MA mentality in FSO as of late.
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Remember guys, the CMs can only do so much and what we do usually is after the event, by then the damage is done.
The last line of defense against MA mentality or rule breakers is the people who know the ropes and abide by the rules.
If you see rule infractions (like too many of a certain aircraft) written into the orders, speak up, say something to a CIC or the CM. If you read that a squad is illegally upping a second ride, speak up! Don't be afraid to say something if someone is doing something illegal or not in the spirit of FSO.
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Just a thought. Anyone think that when something happens on such a mass scale, that something may have contributed to it? SLED, I PM'd you on what I saw. If you need more info or clarification let me know. :salute
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Right now we have 3 types or groups of people upping more often than they should.
1) Upping multiple times in PT boats. As I said this I am fine with since it didn't affect the frame and the whole surface action was meant to be additional fun for dead pilots. Also the inclusion of a naval surface action was a test to try things out, see how they work, and then see how I can actually use it as integral part of a future FSO. There was confusion and awkwardness that happened in that fight. So I don't hold these guys responsible (and the one guy who advocated upping PTs over at C8 and hunting the allied C22, I explained it to him that no he can't do that).
2) There was another set of people who upped in planes at the T+75 mark (when fields were made open for the surface ships) who had not previously flown B5N2s. They should have not done this. Part of our events rely on the honor system and good sportsmanship. Which is also why we frown on smack talk in FSO. The people you insult in one FSO most likely will end up being team mates in the next and might even be your escorts. Anyway this second group, once they realized they were breaking the rules or it was pointed out to them, seems for the most part to have augered or returned to base. So not much damage done .. but it is making log reading a massive pain for me since I have to go in and check every reupp after the T+15 window to figure out if they are in group 1 (PTs), group 2 (upped but then killed nobody and did no damage, and augered or returned to base), or group 3 (Below).
3) The third group upped at the T+75 mark, fought, killed other pilots, and were killed multiple times. This group is going to be seriously sanctioned by the CMs (we are talking over just exactly what the penalties are going to be).
I am not going to point fingers here at anyone specifically or any squad. Chappy, JG2, seems to be in group 2 .. so no you don't need to pull out or be removed from FSO. Only bringing you up because of your posts here apologizing and saying you are willing to be removed from the event for JG2 actions.
On the whole, so far, the group 3 violations is on the Axis side. These violations did not come from new squads to the event where this was there first FSO frame ever.
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I know exactly, or I should say, I believe I know what caused it.
FSO is a team event, much say like football. However, in this event your team mates will change over time so the guys you are trying to kill this month are the guys that are trying to keep you alive and get you to your target next month. Yes, we all want to win but unlike the MA FSO is not as nakedly cut throat. In the MA there is no incentive to have good sportsmanship and to for players to go ... him, fields are open so I can up again in plane but should I? That violates not only violates the rules but ruins other people's good time.
Think on that last part. You just spent 75 minutes getting to your target, many times fighting your way there, or fighting your way out. Maybe you are on your way home feeling that adrenalin that comes from a fight and knowing you survived (in here it is not about wracking up only kills but also surviving), you nurse your wounded bird home .. and then bam you get jumped and end up being killed. It is a disappointment .. you almost made it home. I mean in FSO you hear players generally be disappointed when they don't make it home, they make it home but crack up their planes on landing, etc. ... you don't get that in the MA our with the MA mindset.
Now think on how that person will feel when they find out they were jumped and killed by a guy who was previously killed and upped again just because he found out the fields were open and why not.
This is what I mean about the need for good sportsmanship here. Just because you can do things doesn't mean you should.
You shouldn't taunt people in here. You might be winging with them in the future.
You shouldn't be rude, ill mannered or snarky to CMs or CiCs or others about the rides you are assigned or side you are on. We all take turns flying in the bucket and having to fly on the side we don't want or in the plane we don't like. Don't get me wrong express your opinions and do tell CiCs and CMs that you have flown for the Axis 3 frames in a row so why after requesting Allies are you now doing a 4th. Or in next frame to say, hey we flew SBDs or B5N2s in frame 1 we would like to fly something different. That is fine.
What I have an issue with is people who respond to CiCs what do you prefer flying come back with some negative and snarky remark.
So as I said and others said a different mindset is needed here and a concept of good sportsmanship.
Next if you are a CO or XO of your squad you need to communicate with your pilots. I can't stress this enough. Again unlike the MA the FSO event requires more of COs and XOs. You are the events first firewall or line of defense. As a CM I can't be everywhere answering questions. But rely on you to manage your guys. When one of your pilots goes .. hey C7 is open .. you should go, no we only get one life.
I post rules on the BBS, the events site and send you very detailed objectives again with the rules and special rules listed. I am relying on you to pass these onto your pilots and make sure they understand it. So that if say you get dump and somebody goes hey C7 is open a chorus of your guys will go no .. that breaks the rules and we can't do that.
FSO works because the responsibility is shared between CMs and COs / XOs and then trickles down to squads. Last night there was a break down in this. Also last night, and this is my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of the CM team or other CMs or is official, we saw in my mind another sign of poor sportsmanship where a few individuals put themselves above others and said I can do it and it will be fun and didn't stop and figure how it would affect the event or others in the event.
For those who were ignorant or forgot about the one life rule when pointed out or they realized they augered, return to base, or whatever (group 2 in previous post). For those who died and reupped, fought again, died, reupped and fought again, there is no excuse and I don't think I can really explain just how disappointed I am and how as an Admin CM who spends a lot of time in front of his computer designing something for all participating pilots enjoyment (instead of going out and doing things in my real life) makes me feel to see this rule breaking and extremely poor sportsmanship.
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:o I know that Alpo has already apologized for several of the Sky Knights re-upping in pt's and that you aren't as concerned about that but we WILL make sure too read through all of the rules and ensure they are ALL followed from now on. We followed the rules to the T through the main fight and I guess since this was touted as a fun experiment for downed pilots after the frame was over, we didn't read the rules as closely as we should have. To me, it made one heck of a night for the Sky Knights, into one that ended on a sour note. We are sorry! :salute
CO: The Sky Knights
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In this problem the XO's are as responsible as the CO's. Everyone should have read the rules before they signed up a squad. And I have noticed more often squads failing to obey the rules. Wether it be a small or large infraction.
-613ELD
P.S. Sorry Boxcar! I dont know how but I killed you last night. lol
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If you see rule infractions (like too many of a certain aircraft) written into the orders, speak up, say something to a CIC or the CM. If you read that a squad is illegally upping a second ride, speak up! Don't be afraid to say something if someone is doing something illegal or not in the spirit of FSO.
But don't say it on country or BearKats might throw a hissy!
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Quote from: Nefarious on Today at 12:02:09 PM
If you see rule infractions (like too many of a certain aircraft) written into the orders, speak up, say something to a CIC or the CM. If you read that a squad is illegally upping a second ride, speak up! Don't be afraid to say something if someone is doing something illegal or not in the spirit of FSO.
But don't say it on country or BearKats might throw a hissy!
Hahaha :rofl
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But don't say it on country or BearKats might throw a hissy!
The people on country channel went about it the wrong way; calling out cheats! cheats! cheats! for 5-10 minutes after everyone already knew somthing illegal was happening wasn't gonna do anything but fill up the text buffer for those of us who where still trying to fly and vector people around before we ran out of time. Our CiC Eld was aware of the problem and so where the hosting CM's, everything was going to be / was handled just fine by them.
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I know exactly, or I should say, I believe I know what caused it.
Actually Ghost, in my opinion, it had nothing to do with it on our end. What had more to do with it was arena set-up and the speech by SLED just before we experienced a scenario that was much different than we expected. At 15 minutes before the event C8 was a sector and a half from what we were told (7,7,8,3 instead of 9,8,5,1) We were confused and setting up for a new flight path to adjust. We also broadcasted at about 10 mins before asking what was up. We were told it would be corrected. Somewhere between that point and launch the tack force was moved 2 full sectors to 9,8,5,5 which was a half sector east of the orders. We didn't notice until just before launch. Sled had his speech which included not blaming the CIC's because of blah blah blah, which was accurate and no problem.
About 13 minutes after launch we came across a heavy allied force with higher alt. We had only made it to 11k or so and were climbing, contact was much earlier than any FSO I or many had experienced and it looked like something got screwed up on the command side. Just about the entire group was slaughtered (Historically accurate) by a combination of good allied pilots and what seemed to be a screw up in FSO. We actually discussed the Sled speech talking about blame with CIC's. During this time I Im'd sled asking if it was a screw up and if it was ok to take-off again (we noticed several pilots doing so). No answer was noted. A few minutes after we were airborne again the fields were closed. Shortly after the CV was sunk and the same pilots shot down again since the same dis-advantage was still present. I've only been doing FSO's for a few months but contact was never made inside a half hour. We just got to half of our planned altitude of 20k before being jumped. From our side including the last minute postitioning of the fleet and SLED's talk it looked like something got screwed up resulting in a 1 sided battle. That's my recollection on what happened (with just a couple of beers consumed).
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That's a pretty strange rationale to intentionally violate the rules, and you most certainly did.
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Hamltnblue, just for future reference:
As players enter the arena they are not always on the right side. For that reason I believe it is customary to place CVs at the last possible moment.
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During this time I Im'd sled asking if it was a screw up and if it was ok to take-off again (we noticed several pilots doing so). No answer was noted.
In a single life event, unless you are specifically tasked with an order in advance to up twice, you always assume the answer is No.
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Thank you Sled <<S>>
I didn't know anything about the PT's re-spawning multiple times but I do know about the A6M2's at A9.
Although I and others liked the multiple targets flowing out of A9, it wasn't fair to the allied who fought and completed their objective only to have a conga line of A6M2's behind them and manning guns on the field.
I voiced my opinion enough on the subject last night & I am pleased to see that this was brought to light.
CM's, I have the film showing A6M's spawning from the hanger over and over if you need it.
<<S>>
P.S. To the new guys/people who like to ruin something good... reading does wonders, read the Arena Message & the rules on the ahevents.org website.
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The people on country channel went about it the wrong way; calling out cheats! cheats! cheats! for 5-10 minutes after everyone already knew somthing illegal was happening wasn't gonna do anything but fill up the text buffer for those of us who where still trying to fly and vector people around before we ran out of time. Our CiC Eld was aware of the problem and so where the hosting CM's, everything was going to be / was handled just fine by them.
I agree that the CM's and CiC's will take care of it.
I REALLY didn't like all the salutes that happened before the frame officially was underway. People may not realize that if you fill the buffer up 2x it F... SCREWS w/ the information you are trying to get across to squaddies & CoOp's.
ALL unnecessary texting should be left to certain channels and I would hate to see the .s command be turned off.
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I agree that the CM's and CiC's will take care of it.
I REALLY didn't like all the salutes that happened before the frame officially was underway. People may not realize that if you fill the buffer up 2x it F... SCREWS w/ the information you are trying to get across to squaddies & CoOp's.
ALL unnecessary texting should be left to certain channels and I would hate to see the .s command be turned off.
The people abusing ".S" know what they are doing.
I do not believe the ".S" command can be turned off, but the people abusing it can be.
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We did have 1 gentleman up a couple of times in a PT boat, he appearantly was not aware of the 1 life rule and the responsibility for that is mine.
On a side note with the CV portion, I understand it was more of a testing phase than anything. But it was still unclear as to whether it was still going to even happen or not at the beginning of the frame. I would suggest that in the future additional items such as this can be annotated in the orders sent out. As some people may not read the BBS postings, and the possibility of the the BBS going down for any period of time, these side notes may not get seen by some. As my XO was extremely busy this week and myself having to completely reload the computer, it didn't cross our minds to scan the BBS for additions to posted orders.
Not using this as any excuse, but it would be nice if special additional action items would go along with the standard orders sent out.
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Noted on the orders part. It was however in the objectives that I sent to the COs and XOs of all the squads. So I think the CiCs didn't put it in their orders since they had nothing to assign for manning the ships and such since it was first come first serve for dead pilots at T+75 and T+90.
The surface action has potential but I don't think for adding something for dead pilots to do. If I use it again it will be part of the actual frame with squads being assigned to man th ships and getting a second life after the ship battle.