Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: AVG on June 07, 2008, 07:09:23 AM
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The following is part of an interesting article that’s posted on P-40.com:
A.V.G. Tactics
by Erik Shilling
Tactics:
First and foremost the Flying Tigers only attacked IF they had the advantage. (Altitude or speed.)
We used to listen to Tokyo Rose quite frequently. On several of her broadcast, she called the Flying Tigers cowards because we refused to stay and fight, then challenged us to stop running away. We thought this was quite humorous, and at the same time, knew our tactics were hurting them.
Also on some of Tokyo Rose's broadcasts, the number of AVG aircraft that the Japanese claimed to have shot down, was the exact number Japanese aircraft that we had destroyed. (We only lost 4 pilots in aerial combat.) This was the figure I used in giving our kill ratios. It had no bearing on the number of aircraft we or they destroy. Even Ford has said that we killed approximately 400 air crew.
Here area couple examples of the AVG attacking enemy fighters:
Attacking from head on:
If you attack head on, which the enemy was reluctant to do because our guns outranged the fighters, they would normally pull up. (If he started turning away, he would already be at a disadvantage.) You started firing at Max range, and then dive away, under these conditions we didn't turn and tangle with a Jap fighters.
Attacking the enemy from a 3 to 6 o'clock position:
Why roll rate was important: One must remember that all maneuvers, except for a loop, started with a roll. The slower the roll rate the longer it took before the turn began.
1. If he turned away, he set you up on his six; a most undesirable position for him, because he would be a dead duck.
2. The enemy invariably turned toward you, which was both normal and anticipated. With his slower roll rate, you could beat him into the turn, get a deflection shot at him, and when you slowed down to where he started gaining on you in the circle, you rolled and dove away before you were in his sights. If you haven't tried it don't knock it.
This is where roll rate really came into the picture. As far as Japanese fighters were concerned, their inferior roll rate was at all speeds. Above 240, it would take the Zero 3 second before he attained bank angle for max turn. (And the airplane doesn't start turning until bank angle is established.)
Since you could see him starting to bank you could easily bank more quickly and establish max bank angle within 1 second, and pull whatever "Gs" necessary to establish lead.
At this speed, and with your lead already established, you could maintain lead for some time before speed bled off to where the Zero could turn inside, you got the hell out. (Don't forget same speed and same "G" equal same radius of turn. Above 220 IAS the radius of the circle was determined by pilots ability to withstand "Gs." You could turn with the Zero as long as the speed was above 220 IAS.
If his reaction was only to pull at these speed the "G" factor still applies. The Zero could not take 6 "Gs," and the P-40 could pull over 9 "Gs" and most fighter pilots could "momentarily" withstand 9 "G's" or more without blacking out.
If the situation was reversed and the Zero was attacking you your roll rate would save your bellybutton by allowing you to roll to max turning bank, using 6 "Gs" or more, then continue rolling to inverted and dive. Rolling 180 degrees to dive would take less than 2 seconds, the Zero took 6. The Zero would never get a shot. He couldn't get lead, and by the time he was inverted you would already be out of range, gaining speed much more rapidly than the Zero.
It can be seen from the above illustrations that in the beginning roll rate was the primary factor in starting any maneuver except the loop. After bank angle was established then speed was the primary factor. To escape from a zero, roll rate again became the primary factor and then speed.
Anyone who disagrees with the above has never been in combat, and as far as I know, few books if any, bring this out.
Erik Shilling
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Unfortunately for Mr.Shilling, the above tactics (which is sound and rational) would be considered "cherrypicking" or "bore and zoom" for most self-described l33T people in AH. :D
ps) AFAIK no AVG P-40s ever engaged a 'real' Zero - namely, the Type-0 Carrier Fighter A6M series.
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Unfortunately for Mr.Shilling, the above tactics (which is sound and rational) would be considered "cherrypicking" or "bore and zoom" for most self-described l33T people in AH. :D
ps) AFAIK no AVG P-40s ever engaged a 'real' Zero - namely, the Type-0 Carrier Fighter A6M series.
So what Jap plane did those P40's shoot down?
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Nates.
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FYI,
1. AVG did not fight Zeros, only JAAF fighters.
http://www.warbirdforum.com/planes.htm (http://www.warbirdforum.com/planes.htm)
2. Shilling did not have any air to air kills.
http://www.warbirdforum.com/vics.htm (http://www.warbirdforum.com/vics.htm)
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HHMM..sounds like another picker making his case. try quoting Richtoffen or Hartmann now.
than, since this is a gme in which we all fly cartoon planes, c'mon down and risk your cartoon life. they're only 14.99 a month, for unlimited planes and lives :aok
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FYI,
1. AVG did not fight Zeros, only JAAF fighters.
http://www.warbirdforum.com/planes.htm (http://www.warbirdforum.com/planes.htm)
2. Shilling did not have any air to air kills.
http://www.warbirdforum.com/vics.htm (http://www.warbirdforum.com/vics.htm)
Shilling volunteered to fly a modified Photo-Recon Tomahawk that Shilling reworked, installing a specialized camera and the related hardware. Shilling flew hair-raising photo missions deep inside Japanese air space. As a pilot, Chennault regarded Shilling as his best aerobatic pilot and asked him to pilot a Tomahawk in answer to a challenge made by the Brits. Shilling's Curtiss Vs an RAF Brewster at Rangoon: Shilling easily won the duel. After the AVG disbanded, Shilling flew C-46 transports over the "Hump". After the war, he continued to fly for the Nationalist Chinese. Later, he flew as a contract pilot for France, and piloted the last aircraft out of Dien Bein Fu. Eventually, he was hired by Air America and flew many covert missions in South East Asia.
Shilling also did a stint at Langley Field as a test pilot, flying various experimental aircraft, including the YP-37 and the Bell YFM-1 Airacuda.
Tom Cleaver goes into greater detail here: http://www.warbirdforum.com/erikrip.htm (http://www.warbirdforum.com/erikrip.htm)
My regards,
Widewing
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Ww brakes the noise of discontent, yet again. :salute
Perhaps this man simply knew the abilitys of the zeke, period.
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While I'm sure that the tactics described worked well for the Flying Tigers, and would also work in the MA's, the fact remains that the Flying Tigers were only given one life each. We, on the other hand, have an unlimited supply.
This means that we are able to push the aircrafts limits in a much more "dangeous" fashion. I've seen some pretty good P-40 pilots in the middle of furballs doing some pretty amazing things with them. Skills that, no doubt, would not be learned in a real world conflict.
Some play for realism, some play to mix it up and to develop and test their skills. In the end, it's those who play for the latter that end up being the great sticks in the game. Those who can fly anything from a disadvantaged position and prevail. I still aspire to one day be among that group but to each their own.
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Few things to remember here:
The description of tactics used here CLEARLY indicates that were using E fighting tactics on fighters aware of their prescence and not just "one pass, haul ass" all the time.
It is also to remember that compared to the early-war Japanese airplanes, the P-40 is clearly an energy fighter, but compared to much of the LW set, it is an angles fighter.
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I'm not so sure these skills would not be learned...there have been some amazing moves pulled off in real dogfights that match anything done in AHII. I guess some real pilots have some sort of natural ability.
IMO, there is a happy medium in our sim between the extremes of timidity and stupidity. I think there is a great place to learn all that can be learned about such odd things as trying to angles fight a Spit with a 190...its called the DA/TA. Using the MA for training seems to me like picking fights in a biker bar to learn martial arts instead of going to a gym. In the MA, if its reached the point where you HAVE to disengage, and CAN disengage, you probably should disengage IMO...I don't believe in rewarding the bananas out there for flying an easier-maneuvering but slower aircraft. IF you train properly outside the MA, you still have the ability to turn around and fight like a cornered animal against long odds, if the disengaging option is closed.
Skills that, no doubt, would not be learned in a real world conflict.
Some play for realism, some play to mix it up and to develop and test their skills. In the end, it's those who play for the latter that end up being the great sticks in the game. Those who can fly anything from a disadvantaged position and prevail. I still aspire to one day be among that group but to each their own.
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Sounds like a bunch of dweebs.
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good tactics from what i read. being a zero pilot; i have trashed plenty of p40s. i have not lost a zero to a p40 in one on one combat. i will not dive with a p40. i wait till he messes up. turns, climbs, or flying to where he cant dive away and cream him. i rarely fight in a zero above 7k.
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good tactics from what i read. being a zero pilot; i have trashed plenty of p40s. i have not lost a zero to a p40 in one on one combat. i will not dive with a p40. i wait till he messes up. turns, climbs, or flying to where he cant dive away and cream him. i rarely fight in a zero above 7k.
problem i have when i fly zekes, is that when they dive away, they never come back for ANY sort of fight....not even an attempt at energy fighting.
<<S>>
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Tactics:
First and foremost the Flying Tigers only attacked IF they had the advantage. (Altitude or speed.)
Playing this game like the Flying Tigers fought is a great way to get belittled and insulted by manly children.
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Playing this game like the Flying Tigers fought is a great way to get belittled and insulted by manly children.
Too true Yeager too true! :rofl
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Truth to tell, I was quite surprised by a number of the negative comments.
I posted the quote because I found it very interesting historically, as well as providing insight into the benefit of a faster roll rate; something I had not read before.
It was in no way a recommendation for folks to switch to the P-40. I fly it exclusively in RW and MW in honor of my uncle who was a member if the AVG, and because it's much like fishing with 4# test monofiliment line.
AVG
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I do wish the P-40 was updated. It's such a pretty bird. Even with the older graphics on it, its still looking pretty good. :aok
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I do wish the P-40 was updated. It's such a pretty bird. Even with the older graphics on it, its still looking pretty good. :aok
the P-40 is pretty new in AH, you won't see it updated before a while. What a flying brick btw, we had them some fso's ago against a6m2's and it was hell on earth. Of course you don't want to engage a zero at Co-E in a P40. Zeros climb better, accelerate faster and have better guns.
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problem i have when i fly zekes, is that when they dive away, they never come back for ANY sort of fight....not even an attempt at energy fighting.
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Why, then fly a 190-A5 against P-40s. An interesting matchup that is both historical and reasonably fair for both sides. The P-40 can not, and probably will not try to run away.
Of course, one won't be able to win just by managing the throttle and doing in-plane turns. For many players, this is an intolerable situation. They'd rather keep on flying something that has a strong advantage in turn radius, and keep on grousing when faster aircraft make use of that advantage.
Which is to say, if one takes off in a Zero, one has made the choice to use a plane with a decided advantage in a turning dogfight versus nearly everything else in the set. Zero vrs. most other rides in a turning fight is like having a knife in a fist-fight. Expecting players flying other things to not use their speed advantage at need IS every bit as silly and hypocritical as it would be to demand that Zeros quit using its ability to turn on a dime.
<S>
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Playing this game like the Flying Tigers fought is a great way to get belittled and insulted by manly children.
Interestingly, according to one account of the AVG that I skimmed through a few years ago, the AVG often didn't use the tactics they were credited with using. Those were the tactics they were taught by Chennault, but in the heat of the moment, they often broke down and tried to turn with the Japanese fighters they engaged. In some cases, they didn't even seem to fly in pairs but flew in vics. That they still managed to survive and succeed had probably more to do with the ruggedness of the P-40 (and the anemic armament of their enemies), the heavy hitting power of THEIR armament (and the flimy construction of the Ki's they flew against) and, probably most importantly, the fact they had working radios whereas the Japanese often had to make do with communications WWI-style, i.e. hand signals and wing wagging.
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I like the P40E for multiple reasons: First, it is always under-rated and people either A: ignore it, or B: try and saddle up and unless they are in an uber plane (Spit16, Typh, La7, Nik, etc), they are going to have to be smart, a good shot, and have good speed/E built up. Otherwise, the P40E can put up a good fight. The second reason I like it is for the "nostalgic" reasons. It is a glamorous plane with a true following and not just a "flash-bang" plane like the La7, Spit16, and Nik. To take one up and be able to work with it successfully is an accomplishment.
My piloting ACM "skillz" are average at best and my gunnery is less than stellar, and obvioudly the P40x platform presents many challenging problems. It doesnt turn well, it has average speed, has good firepower but with a low ammo load, and climbs and acceratesl like grandma with a walker. However, it does roll well and dive with the best of them. Just like the historical evidence shows... the P40 pilot has to pick and chose their fights, otherwise one of three things has to happen: one, the enemy pilot makes a major ACM blunder; two, the P40x pilot gets really lucky in some manner; or three, the P40x pilot has better know his plane like the veins on his noodle and make the utmost best possible decisions while engaged. Otherwise... the P40x is behind from the beginning.
Planes fun to engage against or "saddle up" on are: the Typhoon, Fw190, or any other plane that doesnt rely on turning for survival. The Hurricane IIC, either A6M, most Spits, and the La7 are planes that the P40 should stay away from unless of course the above mentioned planes are lower alt, distracted by trying to shoot down your buddy, and God is smiling upon you. :D
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First off, you need to remember that the AVG was operating in the very early days of the war.
The AVG had its first combat on 20 December 1941, when aircraft of the 1st and 2nd squadrons intercepted 10 unescorted Kawasaki Ki-48 "Lily" bombers.
And second, as the line above so succinctly points out, the real aim of the AVG was to stop the bombing.
To do that you attack the bombers if possible.
(Stolen from Wiki on the AVG group) On 23 December, Mitsubishi Ki-21 "Sally" heavy bombers of the 60th, 62nd and 98th Sentais, along with single-engined Mitsubishi Ki-30 "Ann" attack bombers of the 31st Sentai, sortied against Rangoon. They were escorted by Nakajima Ki-27 "Nate" fighters of the 77th Sentai. The JAAF formation was intercepted by the AVG and RAF Brewster Buffalos of 67 Squadron. Eight Ki-21s were shot down for the loss of three AVG P-40s.
Again, you notice, you don't see any "Nate's" shot down, they were all KI-21 bombers.
(More snippage) On 25 December, the JAAF returned, reinforced by Ki-21s of the 12th Sentai and Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusas of the 64th Sentai. Hayabusa, Japanese for "Peregrine Falcon", was code named "Oscar" by Allied pilots. A total of 63 bombers escorted by 25 fighters were committed. These were intercepted by 12 P-40s of the AVG's 3rd Squadron and 15 Buffalos of 67 Squadron. Ten Japanese aircraft were lost in the resulting battle: two Ki-43s, four Ki-27s and four Ki-21s. The Allies lost five Buffalos and three P-40s.
Outnumbered against their escort 2 to 1, the AVG did well considering. After the first attack the Japanese obviously put more escorts with their bombers. Causing the AVG to engage Nates and Oscars. Typical KI-43 armament is a pair of machine guns. And thats it. To them the P40 have a clear firepower advantage. Nate armament was 2 × 7.7 mm Type 89 machine guns, 500 rounds/gun or 1 x 12.7 machine gun and 1 x 7.7 machine gun on later models.
So a pair of .30 cal mg's vs 4 .50s I can well believe the AVG believed in shooting at max range and hoping to scare the pilot into making a mistake.
If they'd ever met A6m's with experienced pilots it would have been a whole nuther ball game for the AVG.
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So if some of you guys run into Tex Hill somewhere you are going to take a shot at him with this crap about the AVG not being good because they did not fight Navy Zeke's. C'mon guys, the AVG put up a good war record dealing with what was handed to them and making do. What they did will matter and be cared about long after anyone is playing this game and grousing about it. Lots of AVG guys did turn out to be great pilots throughout the war, Howard, Pappy to name two. It's awful presumptuous for any of us to make judgments about the guys who were there doing the real thing and putting it on the line.
If the guy makes a pass and dives aways to live and fight another day then I don't see what the problem is. I don't engage unless I have the advantage if I can help it either.
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"If they'd ever met A6m's with experienced pilots it would have been a whole nuther ball game for the AVG."
...The A6M2 was a better fighter than the Ki-43 and Ki-27, but the IJAAF pilots were every bit as good as the IJN were, especially in 1941-42. The AVG also used the inferior P-40B for almost all their missions, not the later P-40E.
That and the primary job of the AVG was shooting down bombers and recon a/c, not duelling fighters.
Their combat record is very good no matter how you angle it, as was the 23rd FG who came after them.
Also I would question the supposed superiority the Zero had over the P-40, the RNZAF and RAAF, and USAAF units seemed to do well in New Guinea and the Solomons (incl Guadalcanal) vs the IJN, giving at least as good as they got.
On a final note, I will take a P-40E any day vs an A6M2 in an FSO (or any other SEA event). Its faster, dives much better, rolls faster, has much better high speed handling, and has a much better gun package. Fly it smart and its a fine ride.
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ps) AFAIK no AVG P-40s ever engaged a 'real' Zero - namely, the Type-0 Carrier Fighter A6M series.
The Oscar was basically the IJAAF's version of the Zeke. It was built to similiar specifications, although lighter and not as rugged at the Zeke nor the fire power. So while not a Zeke, it did perform very similiar to the Zeke combat wise.
ack-ack
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Yes, its worthy to note it has a lower wing loading than the A6M2. Its a nightmare to fight if you get caught at low speeds facing it, under 200 TAS it would loop behind you faster than you could think of your favorite curse word.
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Later versions also fielded 20mm cannons.
ack-ack
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I've always liked reading about the AVG. Dogfights had a very interesting episode about the pilots there, chasing down bombers at night, later escorting B-24s, etc. I have to say that there are some select time frames and areas where I enjoy replaying, or reading about, or watching a show about. Among them are the Flying Tigers, BOB, and a couple of others.
Personally I'm not the best in a P-40. That said I really dislike the way they are currently modeled. The engines' outputs doesn't match the E6B readings (which are historical), yet the top speed is the same. So this could mean their acceleration and climb rates are way too high, if the plane is producing too much power, but not reaching speed, extra drag could compensate for this, or the entire thing could just be buggy as hell (my guess).
The E retention is a bit odd, especially for a draggy airframe, the flaps, the way the -E is modeled more like a -K, is 700lbs heavier than the -40B yet both have the same turn radii with and without flaps.
That said, part of me really likes them. I've had some very fun fights in a P-40E. Once I was outnumbered 4-1 and made it back after a very prolonged fight. Other times I've not made it back but still had fun. Making it out of TT alive in a -40B required some friendly cover but was quite a sortie.
It can be fun, sort of like flying a 109E, but it can also be underpowered for the MAs (also sort of like flying a 109E).
Upcoming Rangoon '08 should be a hoot.