Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SwampRat on March 07, 2001, 10:25:00 PM
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Will you PLEEZ for godsake lighten up the accuracy and or lethality of Buff gunners. It's absolutely beyond any hint of realistic. Ya I know there's a few hero's around that kill buffs at thier leisure but I for one am sick of getting killed 1.3k out or 1 ping killed after pulling a perfect sideswipe gun run on a freekin 26. IF your looking have your average fither jock "just not bother" with attempting to stop a milk running buff then by all means...carry on. Otherwise stick a little realism in there and at least give the fighter guy a chance.
Swamp
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Its been discussed over and over, they are fine. I would go into it but i ahve done so already 2 dosen times so ill just make some different smilies to make my reply worth while.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Originally posted by TheWobble:
Its been discussed over and over, they are fine. I would go into it but i ahve done so already 2 dosen times so ill just make some different smilies to make my reply worth while.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
of course you think they're fine, yer a buff driver. If I were still a dedicated buff driver I'd probably think they were fine too.
But recently, somewhere along the line, it feels as though the .50s on the fighters lost a wee bit of thier bite and the buff/vehicle .50s picked up that wee bit.
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of course you think they're fine, yer a buff driver. If I were still a dedicated buff driver I'd probably think they were fine too.
Ive flown a buff about 2 times this tour, the rest have been in the P-38 and the D-hog. I get my bellybutton handed to me by bombers now and them, but i kill them often aswell. I dont think they are too accurate, iv been on both ends of their guns and they seem fine TOO ME.
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Hell Swampy.... I learned a long time ago in Aces High that if your not flying something with Hispanos, or a 30mm/20mm x4 cannon bird, to just forget about attacking Buffs.
Just not worth it.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Hell Swampy.... I learned a long time ago in Aces High that if your not flying something with Hispanos, or a 30mm/20mm x4 cannon bird, to just forget about attacking Buffs.
Just not worth it.
Don't give up.. I've got kills with twin 7.92mm's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(that darn tail of lancaster can be tough!)
With small caliber: just aim the cockpit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Yup they are tough guns but I get shot everytime by the guy with the patience to set me up right.
It is a matter of patience and fighter guys mostly do not have it.
There are many gameplay consessions in AH, this is only one of them.
Make performance scalable for scenarios, reflecting more accurate performance in all planes and guns but for the Main Wonderland Arena leave them be.
Check the number of bomber sorties flown and reduce them by 99% if HTC neuters the guns on the bombers.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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Huh!?! The buff vs fighter balance is the best there is in online sims. This has been hashed over many times. If you are not maintaining a 2 to 1 K/D ratio over bombers in any A/C you fly (okay,maybe leave out the Macchi, C47 and Zero), then you are NOT approaching them correctly. I'm sure the dead pilots of the LW said the same thing, but had they attacked their prey properly, they might be alive today.
Most of my buff engagements are 1 vs 1...which I DON'T recommend. I recommend working with a wingman, however, my stats for 13 and 14 are as follows:
Ripsnort in any plane vs any buff.(B26,B17,Lanc,JU88)
30-13
Not outstanding, but I can tell you the times I did die was because of a dead six attack, NOT RECOMMENDED EVEN IN REAL LIFE!!!
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There are some certain things that could be fixed..
Like B-17 ball turret traverses up too much, like about 25 degrees or more above its real vertical range and worst thing in this is that it shoots *through* the bomber.
So, if you approach from about 20 degrees above 6, you'll be facing 6 .50 calibers instead of 4. (of course you'd be dead even by 4 guns in this case, but im trying to make a point.. its one third more guns)
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Lately i have refined my anti Buff tactics...
Do not engage from below at all... Only engage when u have speed and alt, otherwise its a waste of time.
Though of course newbies tend to fly buffs abit so ya can get the odd lucky kill from dead 6 +)
SKurj
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IMO, one of the problems is that all the buff guns concentrate the fire on the same point of an attacking fighter. Of course, this is almost impossible in RL. An easy way to solve the problem is just to increase the dispersion at any range of the buff weapons, that is, an attacking fighter aproaching six o'clock of a buff could be hit at the same time in both wingtips, but not hit twice in the same wingting.
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Tour 13 I had 41 kills in the B17 and B26 and got killed 20 times in same. I would say that all of my kills are guys that just climb up my 6. I die consistantly to the fighter that will take the extra 10 min to get alt and speed and line up the runs correctly.
Considering how easy it is to kill the JU88 and TBM, I have no problem with the guns.
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MANDABOLE,
I tried exactly what you suggested a week or so ago. The convergence is adjusted automatically by range. Funny, I even shot at the ground in a B17 at different heights and the hit pattern seemed to be similar regardless of how far it was away (until I was too far to see anymore). It was more like the guns on a P-38 that the ones that are mounted as far apart on a bomber as they are.
Bomber guns are a pretty tough topic since I think there are lots of ways to look at it. A 1 on 1 with a bomber is far more dangerous in AH than the stories seem to indicate in WW2. I take that as a gameplay concession since solo bombers would get shot down the second they encountered an enemy fighter otherwise. The gunnery is deadly, even a good attack can end up as death to a fair gunner, a good gunner will eat you up unless you make a perfect attack, and even then you run the risk of serious damage. 2 on 1 against a bomber, the bomber doesn't have much of a hope of the two guys coordinate their attack properly, and that's equally unfair the other way. I mean, once a gun is turned one way to fire at an enemy, all the guns seem to turn that way, and thus to swing the gun around 180deg to fend off a second con is almost impossible.
I put a lot of this "overpowering" gun thing down to the fact that you are almost always facing at least 4 guns when you are attacking a bomber, it's like facing a slightly improved (since HT has said they are slightly improved .50's) P51 attack, where the convergence is always adjusting. No wonder it is so tough. I'd hate to be at convergence for long against a P-51 so it's no doubt it is bad news to attack a B-17.
I hate attacking bombers, myself, thought I do it all the time since it is often really important in defense. I try to set up the attack as best possible but it's not always practical or possible to do so. Bombers over 25K in alt have the added advantage that the current fighters are 'mushy' in handling at that alt so setting up an attack is even more difficult.
I don't know what the real answer should be, but this is my view of it. I know I feel really uncomfortable attacking bombers solo, but feel fine attacking them in pairs. Amazing the difference is really just that you know the gunner can only shoot at one of you and not the other. It seems to be inversely fair for bombers based on whether you encounter one plane or two... 1 on 1 the bomber has a huge edge, 2 on 1 the bomber is at a huge disadvantage.
-Soda
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I could be wrong but I think the 30 cal guns on the buffs have been ramped up a bit in lethality. I have seen and experienced significant damage from the front lanc guns and JU88 rear guns as well in the last 2 weeks. It took only a couple hits and the wings were removed on a spitfire, Niki and a 51. In the 51's case (me) I was hit at D1+ by the JU88 with only a short burst. As soon as I saw the tracers coming the wing left the plane. This is very different from the earlier experience with the 30's where they needed sustained long bursts to do any damage.
Mav
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Buff guns are fine. I find that if I dont take the time to set up properly or try to force a bad approach, I die, otherwise I normally get em. Of course this does not apply when I fly a buff, then the guns are undermodeled.
Shamus
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The problem is getting into position on some of these bombers and even then a good gunner will swap positions so quickly he'll be lighting you up with 5-6 guns constantly. A good approach certainly improves your chances, but it's still very dangerous to get near a buff.
-Soda
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Several recommend that you "properly setup your approach..". Problem is, these are not bombers flying formation, maintaining a heading. As soon as your in a good position, they reverse or change course.
You can tell most bombers have no fear, they realize they have the advantage and are more then willing to mix it up. That tells me something is very out of whack.
Me, I'm going to join the buff boycott and refuse to attack buffs, they'll eventually get bored (more bored?) and maybe then something will get done.
bowser
[This message has been edited by bowser (edited 03-08-2001).]
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i'm new (4 weeks or so) and a keen bomber pilot due to extreme suckage at dogfighting (lessons pending) i always find myself extremely cautious when tackling any fighter harrassing me on a bombing mission. more recently i've learned how to really shred fighter pilots but this rarely occurs beyond 900 yards #at least# ....learning to fight beyond 1k would be nice :-) what im saying is i always fear a fighter on my tail no matter what it is, what im flying and whatever altitude.
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Granted, Im not saying that in a 1v1 you will always prevail against a buff, even if you do everything right, a dead eye shot (thinking Craven typs here) is going to shred you more times than not.But if you practice killing buffs and use the right plane (I like the g10 with all the goodies), you will knock em down a whole lot more than they get you.
Shamus
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I'm not saying it can't be done, and yes I can (and have) give lessons on proper buff attack tactics.
Its just that I fly the Yak-9U a peashooter with a small clip.
Buff attacks (even Ju88's) are much more difficult than with the F4U-1C or Spit that alot of people are thinking of when they're talking about this subject.
It can be done yes, but it gets old taking radiator hits (the good old magic Yak radiator) from 1.3K shot on a 45 degree crossing angle at 450mph+
Like I said, just not worth it to me.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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I like attacking bombers in the Yak, partly (as you point out) because it isn't easy. You have to get in close and then get out again in a hurry.
I haven't tried the 9T against bombers yet but that should be interesting, can't wait to dive on an Ar234 with one =)
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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>
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swamprat what a joke. do you actually expect us to believe that you are getting killed at 1.3d by one ping? Man, one ping deaths from buff guns DO NOT HAPPEN>>>>>>>EVER!!!!!!!!!
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They do happen loser, im a constant victim of them.
D1.2 on b17's 80c, flying parallel (trying to get in front and HO from 12 hi) buff sprays tracers like a madman in my direction, 1 ping and BEWM, entire wing and engine of opposite wing blown up.
im sure that .50's which by all rights must have a serious dispersion at that range and angle, can perform better than a 30mm at d100 from a perfect 6 position.
When I fly my B-26, I dont use tracers. I just spray in the general direction, see if I get a ping. In most cases, the very first burst I hit with tears a plane apart. 190's and n1ks are the only ones that i've seen that require a long burst of hits to kill. My theory is that the first ping you hit with that does the killing damage, the other hits you see in your FE are lagged effects, just as when you HO a fighter in a chog and you wont see the other plane explode until after the merge, the buff guns have the same lag.
When in my fighter getting pinged by a buff the first ping turns me into a wingless,tail-less, burning cockpit, on the way down I hear two dozen pings. Buff pilot reports seeing my plane lit up like a christmas tree. So the buff gunner sees my plane a-ok getting pinged like hell and then break into pieces, when in my FE first ping breaks apart the plane and get all the other hits later. Since its my FE that determines the damage, its the first ping that kills.
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Buff gunsights should vibrate like fighter guns.
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Agreed Raub.
Just now I did a 450mph slash attack from 3 oc hi on a b26. It never fired on me during my run, I hit it a lot in the fuselage, no damage to buff (though in RL those bullets wouldve murdered half the loving gunners), as I continued on dive, the tail turret sprayed at my p38 as it kept diving and slightly turning to the right (so I could come back higher again and hit it with another hi speed run). Guess, what? ONE loving ping ripped both my wings AGAIN. There is NO way EVER a .50 cal would do that. at d900, target going extremely fast AND changing plane and angle... the dispersion on the bullets coming to me shouldve been HUGE, but hey, those BS turbolasers dont seem to have any dispersion. One ping = 5 bullets from each gun that bears on you... in my case tail and waist gunners... oooh how nice, 2 in tail turret+ 1 in waist dunno how it would shoot at me through the wing, but hey, its BS)=15 rnds all hitting in perfect convergence with no dispersion.
Oh yeah, that can rip a wing off a plane. bollocks.
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Originally posted by loser:
swamprat what a joke. do you actually expect us to believe that you are getting killed at 1.3d by one ping? Man, one ping deaths from buff guns DO NOT HAPPEN>>>>>>>EVER!!!!!!!!!
No loser...I don't. 1.3k out AND 1 ping kills. And yes they certainly do.
Swamp
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FLY CHOG ITS WHAT HTC WANTS YOU TO DO
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Yeah the buffs seem to have this "one hit wonder" together with the chog.
I think the lethality of buff guns should be the same as on the fighters, not increased a bit.
And a 1 ping kill from a 0.5 is really a joke, even a ZERO would laugh at a single 0.5 that strikes it wing in RL.