Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Kaw1000 on June 09, 2008, 11:27:55 AM
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See Rule #17
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If i bring a barrel of oil to your house would it help you? Nope not one bit and why is that? You don't have a refinery in your yard! The lack of refinery ability in the U.S. is the single largest factor in the prices we see here. Until we start refineing our own end product to meet or exceed our demands our prices will stay high.
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Agreed! and it goes hand and hand with this article.
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I think this may shine a little more light on the subject. http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/national/2008/05/23/arctic-drilling-wouldnt-cool-high-oil-prices.html (http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/national/2008/05/23/arctic-drilling-wouldnt-cool-high-oil-prices.html)
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www.eia.doe.gov
Total U.S. Petroleum Consumption (2006) - 20,687,000 barrels/day
U.S. Refiners Total Capacity (2007) - 17,443,492 barrels/day
The supply of gasoline is driving up the cost of oil, when the real issue is refinery capacity, not oil supply. (Of course we all know the real reason for the current price of oil, greedy speculators).
However George Will's point is accurate. The same people that are voting against drilling in the arctic reserve are the same people restricting the development of additional US refineries.
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Krauthammer recently nailed it:
Some things, like renal physiology, are difficult. Some things, like Arab-Israeli peace, are impossible. And some things are preternaturally simple. You want more fuel-efficient cars? Don't regulate. Don't mandate. Don't scold. Don't appeal to the better angels of our nature. Do one thing: Hike the cost of gas until you find the price point.
Unfortunately, instead of hiking the price ourselves by means of a gasoline tax that could be instantly refunded to the American people in the form of lower payroll taxes, we let the Saudis, Venezuelans, Russians and Iranians do the taxing for us – and pocket the money that the tax would have recycled back to the American worker.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/viewpoints/stories/DN-krauthammer_09edi.ART.State.Edition1.46ce026.html
While the idea of higher gas prices is pretty frightening from an economic standpoint, I think he does have a point that price will be the only thing that initiates true lasting change. And if the price has to go up, why not pay the increase to ourselves? Put it against the national debt or something. Anything is better than giving it to the guys that have already grown rich on our oil needs.
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If i bring a barrel of oil to your house would it help you? Nope not one bit and why is that? You don't have a refinery in your yard! The lack of refinery ability in the U.S. is the single largest factor in the prices we see here. Until we start refineing our own end product to meet or exceed our demands our prices will stay high.
Not to mention all of the special fuel blends that the refineries are required to make for the different states during the summer months.
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The US doesn't have a refinery capacity problem at the moment. It has in the past, for example May 2007, when gasoline prices averaged $3.15 a gallon, at a time when oil was about $64 a barrel.
May 2007, of the $3.15 for a gallon, $1.45 went to pay for the crude oil, and 88c went to pay the refiners.
This April, the latest figures the DOE have published, with a gallon of gasoline at $3.46, $2.52 paid for the crude oil, the refiners got a little under 35c.
The current price of gasoline has everything to do with the price of oil, and nothing to do with refinery shortages. In fact, US refiners have been cutting back production earlier this year because of weak demand.
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If i bring a barrel of oil to your house would it help you? Nope not one bit and why is that? You don't have a refinery in your yard! The lack of refinery ability in the U.S. is the single largest factor in the prices we see here. Until we start refineing our own end product to meet or exceed our demands our prices will stay high.
We don't have refineries in the U.S.?
Their all over the place in Chicago/Joliet area.
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Electric cars with a range of 40-50 miles per charge and a constant speed gas motor to charge batteries for longer trips would cut our oil dependency dramatically. Nuke and coal plants for every city and we would then be able to satisfy our own oil needs domestically. High export taxes would keep our oil local and cheap.
<added>
Oh yeah, a moon base to harvest h3 for our fusion plants.
(Can it Moot) :P
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but with an electric car....you have to charge it....
And put more strain on the grid.
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Ok I guess I never made a comment when I posted this link.....so I got "see rule 17"...This is an article about the gas prices we deserve.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/04/AR2008060403052.html
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but with an electric car....you have to charge it....
And put more strain on the grid.
More power plants and heftier/redundant grids. I didn't mean to suggest it would happen overnight but if we don't start sometime it will never happen. We sent a man to the moon in less than 10 years. We could become energy self sufficient if we tried.
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Oh yeah, a moon base to harvest h3 for our fusion plants.
It's gonna be awesome! I can't wait :D
On the OP topic.. I wouldn't wager any particular theory, there's too many factors I don't know about and too many possible hidden strings being pulled. But solar and other alternative energies do seem to be on their way to being competitive... So the real issue, now, is probably more political, re: who gets how much oil until alternative energies catch up to oil's importance in the energy market/politics.
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In 2010 the Chevy Volt will sell like hotcakes.
Remember that people will be charging their electric cars at night, during off-peak hours. I think the US should adopt the policy of many Canadian communities and charge more for peak-hour electricity during the day. This will make charging your electric car at night even cheaper.
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I haven't checked but..aren't these Hybrids Expensive??
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http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/progs/all_state_summary.cgi?afdc/0
link for looking to see if your State gives credits, rebates, tax reductions, etc. for alternate fuels.
And other Info.
some have programs for helping buy ev conversions, green vehicles, EV, hybrids, etc.
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mojava.. it does not surprise me that you have drank the socialist liberal democrat kool aid.
ANWAR drilling will not solve the entire problem and.. as pointed out.. your precious democrats have delayed it for too long.. it will take ten years (probly more like five) but... if we had started 10 years ago when we should have.. if we had told the socialists to pound sand.. we would be using that oil today.
It is not just about drilling in Alaska tho.. it is about drilling in the gulf.. china will do it and with their normal fastidious concern about the environment.. any spill of theirs will be on our coast. yet... the democrats won't let us drill!!
It is about cheap electrical yet the democrats won't let us build safe and clean nukes because the old hippies are the same old hidebound commies they always were and "nuke" scares the pantywaists.
It is about a sensible and progressive energy policy not about some 60's hippie democrat socialist programs mired in old ideals and flower power.
Face it.. our problems are about 60% your socialist parties fault... the reason we don't get a solution and just get taxed more will be your parties fault.. yours is a party of old ideas and junk science and no solutions.
lazs
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So the Dems are responsible for the gas prices too? Boy, for a party that didn't have the House, didn't have the Senate and didn't have the White House for eight years those rascally Democrats sure gummed things up, eh? :)
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The US doesn't have a refinery capacity problem at the moment. It has in the past, for example May 2007, when gasoline prices averaged $3.15 a gallon, at a time when oil was about $64 a barrel.
May 2007, of the $3.15 for a gallon, $1.45 went to pay for the crude oil, and 88c went to pay the refiners.
This April, the latest figures the DOE have published, with a gallon of gasoline at $3.46, $2.52 paid for the crude oil, the refiners got a little under 35c.
The current price of gasoline has everything to do with the price of oil, and nothing to do with refinery shortages. In fact, US refiners have been cutting back production earlier this year because of weak demand.
It's alittle more complicated than that as I'm sure you're well aware of. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait Venezuela, and Iran produce heavy, sour crude. This has a high sulphur content.
Angola, Libya Nigeria, and the United Arab Emirates produce higher quality, light sweet crude, with a lower sulphur content.
Refinery capacity for heavy crude is lacking. There is more heavy crude than light sweet crude. Light sweet crude is easy to refine. The light sweet is most suitable for refining into petrol, gasoil and heating oil.
Heavy crude is in surplus however many refinerries are not set up to process heavy crude because it is more difficult and expensive to refine into products.
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Laz...you listen to way too much right wing radio propaganda.
I think you party is the one with the backward ideas and the 1950s polices. It's a new world buddy, global economy. Think outside the box instead of shutting yourself up in it. I'm pretty sure if your high and mighty right wing folks weren't making a substantial profit, we would have drilled for oil, or increased capacity by now.
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Laz...you listen to way too much right wing radio propaganda.
I think you party is the one with the backward ideas and the 1950s polices. It's a new world buddy, global economy. Think outside the box instead of shutting yourself up in it. I'm pretty sure if your high and mighty right wing folks weren't making a substantial profit, we would have drilled for oil, or increased capacity by now.
"Global Economy". When I hear that it is usually spoken by those who embrace the idea thinking it a Utopia. I'll go on record saying that a "global economy" will never bring about peace and prosperity for all nations. Our nature is far to selfish and competitive for that to ever become a reality. Some think we need only a central government with full authority to bring this about. Millions were murdered thinking the same thing.
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Oh boy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_economy)
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Oh boy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_economy)
I know what it is. Perhaps you aren't one of those who embrace a world government as the savior of mankind? Perhaps you aren't fooled into thinking the "global economy" will ever be equitable so long as there are government run sweatshops in places like China? There are many who do and are however.
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We are always going to be screwed when the people we rely on for oil are the same ones that hate us.
There is no one magic bullet, but what we can do is lift restrictions on domestic oil production, build new refineries, increase the gov't standards on mpg, require all vehicles being produced to have flex fuel capability, develop flex fuel conversion kits for exisiting vehicles and offer tax rebates for them, lift the tarrifs on ethanol imports from countries such as Brazil, build new nuclear powerplants.
Once we move in this direction and money is to be made, we will see ethanol on sale at every corner gas station. When we can use either one, there will be a price war between gasoline and ethanol producers. We badly need for "big oil" to have some competition.
Just moving in this direction will make OPEC s**t their pants and they will suddenly become more cooperative, I bet.
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increase the gov't standards on mpg, require all vehicles being produced to have flex fuel capability, .
You don't need government standards on MPG. You don't need to require flex fuel (not even going into the debate on how much energy one really gains from the production of ethanol).
Tax. Tax something, you get less of it. Subsidize it, you get more of it.
Want higher MPG cars? Slap a $2 gallon tax on gasoline, all the money earmarked to pay down the national debt or to be directly rebated via Social Security payroll tax reductions or something. I assure you, you WILL get higher MPG cars very quickly. You will significantly reduce US consumption of gasoline simultaneously. Instead of the extra money from $2 gas going to the oil producers, it will come back to the US citizens. (Bonus is that illegals won't get the rebate. :) )
Also, by taxing gas and not ethanol or other flex fuels, you will drive the market to flex fuel vehicles.
Of course, you'll never ever get rid of the $2 added gas tax, even after the problems are improved or resolved. But hey.. that's big government for ya!
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So the Dems are responsible for the gas prices too? Boy, for a party that didn't have the House, didn't have the Senate and didn't have the White House for eight years those rascally Democrats sure gummed things up, eh? :)
Tell you what. Go back to the 2006 mid term elections, and tell us, what was the housing sale rate? The cost of a gallon of gasoline? The cost of a gallon of diesel fuel? The unemployment rate? The growth rate of the economy?
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Oh boy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_economy)
Quoting "wiki" is really a great basis for any argument. :rolleyes:
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In 2010 the Chevy Volt will sell like hotcakes.
Remember that people will be charging their electric cars at night, during off-peak hours. I think the US should adopt the policy of many Canadian communities and charge more for peak-hour electricity during the day. This will make charging your electric car at night even cheaper.
Not when people see the sticker price. Did a quick google on the Volt the other day and found an article saying the volt was going to start around 30,000 and mostly like end up in the $40,000 range. I can't afford that, and I'll be a good bunch of others won't. Electric/hybrid vehicles are worthless, unless the masses can afford them.
If the price only allows 100,000 of these on the road, then whats the point? There are what, 20+million cars on the road? The technology has to be affordable for everyone, otherwise, whats the point.
I'm concentrating on putting in a 2kW wind turbine on the house and some hot water solar.
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Didn't realize I was having an argument. Here you go Virgil, have a gander at those numbers. http://www.ombwatch.org/article/articleview/4262 (http://www.ombwatch.org/article/articleview/4262)
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It's alittle more complicated than that as I'm sure you're well aware of. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait Venezuela, and Iran produce heavy, sour crude. This has a high sulphur content.
Saudi produces about two thirds light, one third heavy. Kuwait is mostly medium to light. Venezuela produces very heavy crude, Iran heavy crude.
Refinery capacity for heavy crude is lacking.
Yes. Part of the problem is sanctions on Iran. Refineries are gearing up for heavier grades though, so there'll be less of a problem in future.
But the difficulties in refining heavy crude are mainly a problem for the producing countries. Their oil sells at a discount because it costs more to refine, but it still sells.
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"gas prices we deserve".....
Hmm...Let me think who I pizzed off to deserve this.
No one......So your statement of what "We" deserve is not accurate......I have a midsize SUV (Mazda Tribute)...a mini van (small V6) for the wife and grandkids....a small home considered in todays market as a starter home (2000 sq. feet)....and very rarley speed in excess of 5 to 10 over....if that. I don't do alot of running around.....and waste hardly anything.
Can I have that 1.20 a gallon back now?
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You don't need government standards on MPG. You don't need to require flex fuel (not even going into the debate on how much energy one really gains from the production of ethanol).
Tax. Tax something, you get less of it. Subsidize it, you get more of it.
Want higher MPG cars? Slap a $2 gallon tax on gasoline, all the money earmarked to pay down the national debt or to be directly rebated via Social Security payroll tax reductions or something. I assure you, you WILL get higher MPG cars very quickly. You will significantly reduce US consumption of gasoline simultaneously. Instead of the extra money from $2 gas going to the oil producers, it will come back to the US citizens. (Bonus is that illegals won't get the rebate. :) )
Also, by taxing gas and not ethanol or other flex fuels, you will drive the market to flex fuel vehicles.
Of course, you'll never ever get rid of the $2 added gas tax, even after the problems are improved or resolved. But hey.. that's big government for ya!
Increasing taxes on gas to force consumers to conserve is national suicide for the economy, I drive a 4 cylinder car, but we don't have subways or any real mass trans options here. I'm hurting big time already and I can't afford to replace my car with a hybrid, without even going into a debate on how the trickle down effects business such as tourism etc. If gas is too expensive we can't keep vacation industries in business.
Brazil runs on ethanol with leftover fuel they would like to import to us except we have protectionist tarriffs for big oil. Who else can grow sugar cane? Maybe Columbia and Peru would like a new, legal, cash crop. If most US cars can be converted to flex fuel, that market will rise. If you build it they will come. If we can use whichever fuel source is cheaper there will be stiff competition.
We need to get out of this "oil only" based economy. If we could get half our cars running on ethanol, things would dramatically improve.
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If the tax is refunded to you via a lower Social Security payroll tax you wouldn't lose anything. It would still drive the market towards the result you desire though.
Of course, we could wait until the price hits $6/gallon and then just smile as the $2/gallon goes to the Saudis.
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"13% of the experts predict that gas prices will exceed $5/gallon by the end of the year, while 87% of the experts predict that gas prices will exceed $5/gallon by the end of the week!" - Jay Leno
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"gas prices we deserve".....
Hmm...Let me think who I pizzed off to deserve this.
You cannot possibly discount the fact (no pun) that for MANY years....OPEC has been salivating while watching the USA drive their Large SUV's and Trucks and not conclude that the we apparently as a nation felt that gas prices were far too low. I'm surprised it took this long.....
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If the tax is refunded to you via a lower Social Security payroll tax you wouldn't lose anything. It would still drive the market towards the result you desire though.
Of course, we could wait until the price hits $6/gallon and then just smile as the $2/gallon goes to the Saudis.
I see.
Well I'm on board then, as long as it's assured the money doesn't hit a pork detour on the way to my paycheck.
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If the tax is refunded to you via a lower Social Security payroll tax you wouldn't lose anything. It would still drive the market towards the result you desire though.
Of course, we could wait until the price hits $6/gallon and then just smile as the $2/gallon goes to the Saudis.
The problem is that once the government takes your money, you ain't getting it back. Unless you qualify for an entitlement. Sorry, the thieves in D.C. never met revenue they didn't feel they had the right to spend.
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You cannot possibly discount the fact (no pun) that for MANY years....OPEC has been salivating while watching the USA drive their Large SUV's and Trucks and not conclude that the we apparently as a nation felt that gas prices were far too low. I'm surprised it took this long.....
Point taken... :)
I have had trucks...All got decent gas mileage due to driving habits....and now I have a Mis-size SUV. The "We" is where I differ.
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On Wednesday, Schumer once again claimed "if [Saudi Arabia] did a million barrels of oil a day increase from today, it would go down about -- the translation to gasoline would be about $.50 a gallon, maybe $.62."
Yet, on May 7, Schumer felt a likely similar increase from drilling in ANWR would "reduce the price of oil by a penny."
link (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2008/05/23/media-miss-schumers-opec-oil-production-versus-anwr-drilling-flipflop)
Schumer does know that if you increase the supply of something, the price of it probably will fall. That's why he and 96 other senators recently voted to increase the supply of oil on the market by stopping the flow of oil into the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, which protects against major physical interruptions.
Seventy-one of the 97 senators who voted to stop filling the SPR also oppose drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.
One million barrels is what might today be flowing from ANWR if in 1995 President Bill Clinton hadn't vetoed legislation to permit drilling there. One million barrels produce 27 million gallons of gasoline and diesel fuel. Seventy-two of today's senators - including Schumer, of course, and 38 other Democrats, including Barack Obama, and 33 Republicans, including John McCain - have voted to keep ANWR's estimated 10.4 billion barrels of oil off the market.
So Schumer, according to Schumer, is complicit in taking $10 away from every American who buys 20 gallons of gasoline.
link (http://www.nypost.com/seven/06052008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/hypocrites_on_gas_114035.htm)
It is estimated that 8-10 years would be required to get Anwar online, and Schumer's ilk has been blocking it for.....10 years. Anwar in and of itself is no long term answer, but adding in the similar half-dozen fields, would be enough to make the Saudis be irrelevant for a while
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Makes ya kinda wonder what the Alaskian Pipeline was all for huh?
:huh
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Makes ya kinda wonder what the Alaskian Pipeline was all for huh?
:huh
It's to get all the caribou in 1 place so hunters can more easily shoot them :D (they LOVE the nice warm pipeline, much to the surprise of the tree huggers)
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If the tax is refunded to you via a lower Social Security payroll tax you wouldn't lose anything. It would still drive the market towards the result you desire though.
Of course, we could wait until the price hits $6/gallon and then just smile as the $2/gallon goes to the Saudis.
Don't know about Toad's suggestion, but it got me thinking. Monorails?? Everywhere. Or something moving towards that end of the transportation pool.