Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: CavemanJ on January 15, 2001, 06:22:00 PM
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taken from the AH game overview site:
Flying the less popular planes will get you more points whether you are in air-to-air or air-to-ground mode. Likewise, the higher quality the planes of your opposition, the more points you get for them. If you shoot down lower quality planes with higher quality ones, you don't get much for doing that but you do get a lot for the exact opposite.
When HTC first started mentioning the perk system it seemed as those there were going to compare quality to quality for determining the perk multiplier. The above passage, with the exception of the first sentence, suggests the exact same thing. Looking at the ENY value in the hanger list, and subsequent remarks from HTC indicate that the multipliers are, in fact, influenced by aircraft popularity and seemingly have nothing to do with quality.
You can look at the Seafire MkIIc vs SpitfireV ratings, 17 and 35 respectively (last time I actually looked), and in my limited understanding I believed these two birds to be of nearly the same quality. The defining difference is the availability of the Seafire on the carriers, hence it sees much more use/is more popular.
I'm curious as to why a system based on popularity was chosen over one based on aircraft quality in comparison w/ the rest of the plane set. I believe a prime example is the possible coming perk of the F4U-1C, much to the delight of the -1C crybabies. Pyro has said this is solely because of how many kills the -1C has in the arena, and I have no reason to doubt that. He also said he has concerns about pushing the perk spread farther than it already is. But, as was posted by everyone to see, the stats show the over all K/D of the -1C to not be that far off from the next closest kites.
There have been calls to perk the N1K2-J. I personally believe it will be the next kite to fall under the axe because it also carries 4x20mm and 900rds of ammunition, and additionally it can outmanuver the -1C in pretty much every respect. I've been flying the N1K2-J for the past couple of days and IMNSHO it's much more of a menace than the -1C. Will the N1K2-J become alot more popular with the -1C perked? I believe so. Will this lead to the N1K2-J being perked down the road? It verra well could.
And we start seeing a pattern. As a kite becomes more popular for whatever reason it runs the risk of becoming a perked kite. On the other hand it's possible the -1C will be unperked a couple of tours down the road (only to be perked the verra next tour I would imagine). Here comes an RPS of sorts, based solely on the popularity of an aircraft.
What's wrong with a quality vs quality type of system? The -1C would obviously have one of the lowest multipliers in the game. Other kites that were verra similar in performance (pony/-1D for isntance) would have nearly the same multiplier. Pre '43 kites with hardly a chance to kill anything (C.202 comes to mind) would have the largest multipliers. But, and importantly IMO, the multipliers wouldna be based on anything as arbitrary as the personal whims of the users and which kites they wanna go be a dweeb in (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
erm... ok, lotta typin just to say I'm curious about why a popularity based multiplier system vs a quality based one. Maybe posting after a few drinks is bad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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CavemanJ
CO, The Wrecking Crew
"Airpower is a thunderbolt launched from an egg shell invisibly tethered to a base."
--Hoffman Nickerson
To close with and destroy the enemy by use of fire, manuever, and shock effect
Know Fear - Have Twins
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To answer the question, go take a look at the "aircraft rating" thread over in the a/c and v. forum. Note how different pilots score their planes (especially RAM and the Hawg Conspiracy's divergent evaluations of the FW190).
The problem is that deciding on aircraft quality is equally arbitrary, and liable to kick off even more whining then the system we have.
Furthermore, my understanding of the perk system is that it's there to encourage a diverse range of aircraft in the arena. It's also set up to allow superplanes without letting them dominate the arena, in terms of numbers and kills. What better way to accomplish these goals than to base the points on aircraft popularity in terms of kills?
As for the Seafire/Spit V mess, perhaps this would be cleaned up by setting up a separate category of perk points for aircraft taking off from a CV and excluding the Seafire from land-based ops. That way, too, you might get some better numbers on the Chawg issue.
But if you make someone go out and arbitrarily rank the planes according to how that person sees their merits, you're setting that person up to be a lightning rod for criticism.
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The popularity of the ride establishes its capabilities quite well. Better then asking would. If you asked people would have trouble being honest. People want to think that they are hot-not thier plane. Many would likely just try to get their planes rated lower for higher points.
Its not rocket science. In an enviroment that has no jams, no deaths, little atmospheric interference and next to no supprise. The increased firepower of some of these rides is a very big advantage.(vara beeg if you prefer)
The kill to deaths say it all. Yes a supperior pilot can get the job done in a lesser plane. But he deserves the reward for doing so.
That being said both the niki and chog will be pretty marginal perk planes. Ive gotta think a spit 21 or a Bearcat or a P51F or a 190 D12 would have lots of fun with a Chog....But with the stable available right now the stats speak for themselves.
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The way I see it CJ is this.. A planes popularity is a reflection of its impact on the game. The perk system permits some aircraft into the sim, that if they were available to everyone would completely dominate the arena, causing an imbalance. With the game in its present state, perking the chog makes sense, at least theoretically lol. I wonder if once its perked, the aircraft the chog pilots hop into will also account for 20% of the kills.... we'll see (likely not i'd imagine).
Release the 262, don't perk it, it will get >20% of the kills in the MA and be the only aircraft seen likely. Imbalance.
An aircraft's abilities would be difficult to rate IMO. The popularity indicates an aircraft's abilities quite well, amongst the average AH pilots, which is really the issue here I think.
AKskurj
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At the end of the day, you will have a system with all planes used in equal proportions. Nice, isn't it?.
Cheers,
Pepe
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I know how, what, and why the perk system is here. I dinnae need a buncha pompoms point out that it's to allow the super kites w/o throwing the whole balance of the arena right out the window.
Surely the popularity of the aircraft must be considered in figuring its overall quality, but why base the system solely on popularity and end up with either a type of RPS or perking all kites until we're down to just 2-3 of the least popular being "free" rides?
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But, as was posted by everyone to see, the stats show the over all K/D of the -1C to not be that far off from the next closest kites.
It's not the K/D that matters, its the number of kills that does. Nobody would be annoyed if C.202 had kill to death ratio of 23/1 while number of kills would be 89.
There have been calls to perk the N1K2-J. I personally believe it will be the next kite to fall under the axe because it also carries 4x20mm and 900rds of ammunition, and additionally it can outmanuver the -1C in pretty much every respect. I've been flying the N1K2-J for the past couple of days and IMNSHO it's much more of a menace than the -1C. Will the N1K2-J become alot more popular with the -1C perked? I believe so. Will this lead to the N1K2-J being perked down the road? It verra well could.
Difference is... F4U-1C is carrier plane, N1K2 not. This means that N1K2 will not be as popular as F4U-1C. F4U-1C is also much better jabo plane and tank killer.
You must also remember that perking does not mean same as removing from game. Perked plane is still available if you have points.
Bf 109G-6 (over 10000 build) has got 630 kills this tour. F4U-1C (about 200 built) has got 24559 kills this tour.
For numbers built that kill account is just laughable. F4U-1C is far too popular and too used in historical context. If we think it is fine, why not introduce Ta 152 which was build in very limited numbers and then let everybody fly it? Would that be fun? I don't think so.
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey I/SG 5
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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Originally posted by CavemanJ:
I know how, what, and why the perk system is here. I dinnae need a buncha pompoms point out that it's to allow the super kites w/o throwing the whole balance of the arena right out the window.
Surely the popularity of the aircraft must be considered in figuring its overall quality, but why base the system solely on popularity and end up with either a type of RPS or perking all kites until we're down to just 2-3 of the least popular being "free" rides?
The assumption that everyone flying the CHog will switch to the same plane is probably flawed. There is no plane in the game that brings all that the Chod does to the table. Some will go Typhoon, some will go Dhog some will go Niki some will go Jug. Some will go F6f.
The Dhog has lots of advantages in the game and no other plane currently delivers them all. It is reasonable to assume that an exodus will not happen to a single plane.
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Cave I thought that the jist of your post was answered as to why..maybe not..
When it come to the C hawg...popularity and quality goes hand in hand to some degree.
Now bear with me for a minute...The C hawg carry's 4 Extremely deadly cannons. I've been hit more times at 800 - 900 yards by this aircraft than any other and each time I've been hit at that distance I've lost major body parts of my AC. Now in contrast, I've never hit anyone outside of 500 yards with a 20mm off of my 109. Most of the time to be effective I have to move within 300-400 yards....big difference those yards make when it comes to ACM.
Another "quality" issue that makes the Chawg over popular (dealing with guns and damage) is it's base attacking capabilities. 1 Chawg can run all over a base taking out ack all day long, take hits, etc and still fly off missing a wing tip..trailing smoke, etc... Personally I've seen too many Chawg hit base AA by themselves never getting over 3k over the base..taking hits and still complete the job and fly off.. Most other planes would take maybe a couple of hits and be done. No they don't do it every single time..but enough..
Lest not forget it's ability to take out Gv's with a few pings and take damage from bombers and Gv's (sometimes getting hit by osti and still moving around to kill it later..hehe).
All these "quality" issues affect popularity. There's some die hard plane lovers out there like 1 particular plane..i'm 1 of them..but there's 5 more ppl that will jump in the "best" plane (more like easiest to score with) out there.
I absolutely love a good fight with a D, but I see fire when I see a C cause I usually get pinged once from odd ball angles and loose half my dam plane immediately. But in all this I really do have a point. If certain quality issues means a plane should be perked (ie..popularity is a major factor in determining) then it should be to keep variety out there. Could others be perked in the future (ur Niki comment) yea, it's possible. But it's a bridge that will have to be looked upon once it's reached. The chawg could maybe then become unperked. It's not an end all solution but it's one that is needed for across the board playability.
Anyways...if your still awake this far into the post..congrats..hehe.
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Wingnut
Luftjagerkorps
(http://www.facelink.com/edit/raw/rawimage/27/1444127.gif)
The quality of the box matters little. Success depends upon the man who sits in it - Baron Manfred von Richthofen
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Ahh, it has began already on the N1K before the Chog has been perked, just as predicted...ext, the Ostwind, then, P51D?
I'll add something worthwhile than the above spewing text:
One day, when our non-perk planeset is complete, I'd like a Rolling Plane Set integrated with Perk planes,scenario:
1942: The FW190 is available, however, you can get the FW190-D in 1942, but it will cost you 500 perk points...but in 1944, the perk price is reduced to 200 perk points....something along those lines....
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Personally I really see this not so much as an issue of what ends up getting perked. But more as how many points it will take to fly it.
So they Perk the Chawg, but keep it easily in reach, say 10 perk points. That will reduce the overall numbers of C hawgs in the arena, while still letting anyone who wants to fly it at least some of the time.
As for the niki, while it is an air to air killer, it lacks the air to ground punch the C hawg has. You can't load 2k of bombs on it plus rockets. It's 20mm don't even compare when it comes to killing ground vehicles.
Until they are actually perked and we know how many points it will take all this discussion is pretty much a moot point anyway.
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FIrst, I ain't no steenkin' cheerleader.
Second, how are you going to determine quality in a non-controversial manner? If the LW folks get their way, the G10 (one of the best planes in the game) would be considered a really crappy plane, far below the p51 in its point value; If the pony dweebs succeed, the g10 would be scored right alongside the superior mustang. And the crap will fly.
Third, (and the essence of my previous "pom-pom" post) the whole point of the perk system is not to give points to people according to the quality of their plane, but to balance the aircraft in the arena by providing incentives to fly less-popular (not necessarily lower-quality) planes, and by restricting the number of unbalancing aircraft (such as the C-hawg). So, what I find wrong with the "quality" proposal, is that it sets forth a system at odds with the principles of the perk system. It's not a minor modification at all; it implies a whole new way of scoring AH, and as such needs a well thought out elaboration.
edit: and you're right, HTC's statements notwithstanding, this has nothing to do with quality.
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 01-16-2001).]
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I've been hit more times at 800 - 900 yards by this aircraft than any other and each time I've been hit at that distance I've lost major body parts of my AC. Now in contrast, I've never hit anyone outside of 500 yards with a 20mm off of my 109. Most of the time to be effective I have to move within 300-400 yards....big difference those yards make when it comes to ACM.
Keep net lag in mind. When you are shooting 300-400 yards on your fe, your adversary is seeing somewhere around, oh, 700-800 yards or so. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Apache:
Keep net lag in mind. When you are shooting 300-400 yards on your fe, your adversary is seeing somewhere around, oh, 700-800 yards or so. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
"Rant mode-not personal Apache"
You know Apache I here this EVERY time someone mentions a long shot they received. Netlag. Now yes, someone can be warpy and particularly laggy, and it's more than quite noticable....but...I have never, and I mean never in several years of online flying seen a difference of more than 150ft in another game and 80 yards is the biggest difference I've ever seen in AH. If there's a standard 500 YARD difference out there half of these planes would never be able to do any ACM because you'd be moving way earlier than your opponent..etc...If I see then at 500 on my 6 does that mean their 100 yards off me?
And if the folks around here think that's a standard (500 yard difference across the board seem to be going answer) then I must say AH is one terribly coded game then.
Sry, I know ppl will want to spout internet theory here, but I think it's akin to urban legend..something that ppl just take for granted.
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Wingnut
Luftjagerkorps
(http://www.facelink.com/edit/raw/rawimage/27/1444127.gif)
The quality of the box matters little. Success depends upon the man who sits in it - Baron Manfred von Richthofen
[This message has been edited by Wingnut_0 (edited 01-16-2001).]
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Firstly, my apologies to Cavemanj for taking this thread OT a little.......
I have never, and I mean never in several years of online flying seen a difference of more than 150ft in another game and 80 yards is the biggest difference I've ever seen in AH. If there's a standard 500 YARD difference out there half of these planes would never be able to do any ACM because you'd be moving way earlier than your opponent..etc...If I see then at 500 on my 6 does that mean their 100 yards off me?
And if the folks around here think that's a standard (500 yard difference across the board seem to be going answer) then I must say AH is one terribly coded game then.
I can assure you that 500yds is "standard" for me when I fly online. Connecting from Australia with a 650+ms ping (on a good day (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) is probably what causes such lag, but it is there and it is around 500yds for me.
You can still manoeuver perfectly well with such lag, you just have to remember that the bogey can hit you even if his nose isn't quite leading you enough, and that anything inside 1,000yds is deadly.
A good test for this delay is to grab a friend and go to the Training Arena. Fly a line abreast formation on him, then ask him where he sees you plane. Invariably for myself, he reports seeing me about 400yds behind him in an echelon pos'n.
Let me assure you that internet lag is no urban legend for some of us, but the game is just as much fun anyhow (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cheers,
Rod
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Not taken personal Wingnut. Thanks for the caveat (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
No personal attack here as well.
Networks are my profession. I know them inside and out. I won't bore everyone with details, but net lag is an inherent part of internet gaming. I won't get into a debate as to what one see's on their fe's but I suggest testing be done if you're curious or care. I've tested here and in the other game as well. Far, far more than any 150. Heck, after years of online flight sims, you would think I could shoot better, knowing the lag affect as I do, lol.
Urban legend? Nope. Applied logic.
Sorry about the hijack cavey.
Back to our regulary scheduled program.
[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 01-16-2001).]
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Jochen carrier kite or not dinnae make that much difference. It's verra easy to land an N1K on a flat top and stop in the wires to rearm/refuel. You can't launch it from the flattop, but you can land and launch again.
The past couple of days I've been flying the N1K2-J. Last night, at A43, I racked up about 30 kills with only 2 deaths in an hour or a little less, and the second death came only because I rushed an attack on a B-17. Had I played it smart I would've lived (had already killed that pilot/gunner twice). About 8 of those kills were panzers, ostwinds, and 2 M16s. The N1K carries to 250kg eggs, which is what, 550lbs each? A flight of N1Ks can flatten an airfield just as quickly as a flight of -1Cs.
Pongo in another thread, for arguements sake, I treated it as though the -1C were removed from the game. I also said I dinnae really think the pilots would move about as I said in my example. The pilots are going to move to kites that fit the way they percieve thier fighting style. If they want to stay with 4x20mm and they're goin for the N1K, Tiffie, or one of the 190s. To stay in carrier ops they'll go for the -1D or hellkitty. But other kites will start getting more use, and it is verra possible that one may reach a level of disparity comparble to the level achieved by the -1C. I firmly believe the N1K has the potential to do so, especially if more pilots really start checking it out and seeing what it can. I consider myself a mediocre pilot, but I can rackup kills in bad situations and fly away to land'em (see 'A sortie to remember' on the general boards).
Wingnut have you forgotten that all 3 spits, the P-38, and the tiffie also carry Mk2 Hispanos? Tiffie is 4x20mm, but it's a small ammo load. The spits are 2x20mm with cannon loads smaller than the tiffie, and the 38 is 1x20mm with the smallest hispano load of them all. Do those not count? With the guns in the nose the P-38 is a long range sniper. Any of the above mentioned planes can take out GVs. I once nailed 2 panzers on a strafing run as they came out of the VH while I was strafing it. I'll look for ya while I'm in my N1K (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now if we can keep the threadjackers away perhaps we can continue the discussion (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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The Niki is definatly a great plane. But unless you have been sniffing gasoline excessivly since last we flew together you are better then an average pilot. I still think it unlikly that the same numbers disarity will exist after perking the Hog C. But if everyone does go Niki then the situation will be worse. Cause there are allready lots of nikis apperently. Guess time will tell. I dont think you will ever get aggrement on ratings for aircraft to decide the issue that way, popularity and Kill to death are about all we have.
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Two notes about lag effects on distance estimation.
First, it is a variable. I've seen lag discrepancies in films from 2 viewpoints from nil to 400 or so yards depending on connections and network conditions.
Second, lag is dependent on speed and closure rate. That's why you need to leave a LOT more margin in a head-on situation than a tail chase. If a bogey is closing on you head-on, the high closure rate will mean the number difference is larger, even if the lag time is constant. This is why I start my HO evasive move at about D 1.4 on a nose to nose merge. At high closure I can see as much as a 500 yard difference in ranges sometimes. If somebody is chasing my tail but not gaining quickly, I can generally feel safe around 1.1 or so. Depending on speed and closure, the allowance for lag in a tail chase is much lower, I usually allow for 200 or 300. Now maybe it will be less, but it's better to be safe than... erm.. dead. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This is why you hear folks whine about 1k shots, but you will never see a film from the shooter's perspective that shows anything out of whack.
Sorry to Hijack CavemanJ. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think that a self-adjusting perk system based on kills or even flights is the only way to go. I really don't care how "good" a plane is, I just don't want to see any single plane making up 30% of the population when I go flying. So far Pyro's perk system is the best way I've seen to keep things in check.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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Cave, no I haven't forgotten about the other AC. I'm just trying to line our your original question with answers, but I can't answer for everyone, only my personal experiences.
I love a good spit fight..dam exciting, but whatever the reason I've taken hits (short and long) from a spit 9 and a typhoon and I've never received the damage comparable to what a 1c does to me. That's just personal experience.
Like I said..I tried to lay out it's "quality" as perceived by many and why those things make it over popular, hence the reason it's being perked.
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Wingnut
Luftjagerkorps
(http://www.facelink.com/edit/raw/rawimage/27/1444127.gif)
The quality of the box matters little. Success depends upon the man who sits in it - Baron Manfred von Richthofen
[This message has been edited by Wingnut_0 (edited 01-17-2001).]
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Originally posted by CavemanJ:
I know how, what, and why the perk system is here. I dinnae need a buncha pompoms point out that it's to allow the super kites w/o throwing the whole balance of the arena right out the window.
Surely the popularity of the aircraft must be considered in figuring its overall quality, but why base the system solely on popularity and end up with either a type of RPS or perking all kites until we're down to just 2-3 of the least popular being "free" rides?
What makes you think any other aircraft in the current planeset will be perked?
I've yet to see an official announcement saying that even the Chog will definitely be a perk, let alone any other aircraft.
AKskurj
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Cave You are perfectly right, concording with you at 100%.
I think a solution would be an historical permanent MA (p.e. Europe 39 41- or 43-44) with only planes of same theatre & era.. but i'm afraid it's an anticonventional issue, seen the direction AH has taken (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
AXE
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Originally posted by SKurj:
What makes you think any other aircraft in the current planeset will be perked?
I've yet to see an official announcement saying that even the Chog will definitely be a perk, let alone any other aircraft.
AKskurj
Nice sublte threadjack attempt. Grounded, 1 week (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Pyro himself has said they -1C could verra well end up perked to keep from opening the perk point spread any further.
However this discussion is about popularity based vs quality based systems for determining the multiplier/value for/of kites. The -1C has been mentioned by name because of the disparity between it and other kites. The N1K2-J has been mentioned specifically because it has the potential to achieve the same disparity.
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Originally posted by CavemanJ:
Surely the popularity of the aircraft must be considered in figuring its overall quality, but why base the system solely on popularity and end up with either a type of RPS or perking all kites until we're down to just 2-3 of the least popular being "free" rides?
+) I didn't hijack, I just posted a reply to what you posted CJ. Personally I see the popularity rating as a very simple yet effective rating system. It's also one that can't be disputed, as it is backed up with solid facts. A "quality" system I think would bring a lot of whining and complaints. In time I'm sure it would fall into place ok, but time might mean years... once the established community either got over it or quit. I think you can imagine what it would be like in here for the next few months if a "quality" system was instated.
The C-Hog perk issue has created some concern that there may be other, currently available aircraft added to the perk list. By perking the chog, HTC will only increase these concerns. Personally I hope that if they do perk the chog, a statement to the effect of "No other current aircraft will be perked ever" from HTC would satisfy me. I don't think we'll see the n1k increase in number to the extent of the chog, but i could be wrong.
I think the current idea, popularity, makes a lot of sense, and speaks for itself.
AKskurj