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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: moot on June 11, 2008, 12:28:42 PM

Title: Puffy ack
Post by: moot on June 11, 2008, 12:28:42 PM
Worst feature in the game, 10 years in.  It could spread out its seeding box the more you maneuver and the faster and further you are from the guns, but doesn't.  No need for any expensive calculations for that. 
A fighter flying at 450mph, miles away from the CV, behind mountains, shouldn't get hit and damaged 5 bursts in. If the collision calcs against the landscape aren't possible, then an emulation of the effect could be made by proportionately spreading out or tightening the seed box.  It's anything but obvious how everything in the game is so well done, but not this.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Noir on June 11, 2008, 12:43:16 PM
Worst feature in the game, 10 years in.  It could spread out its seeding box the faster and further you are from the guns, but doesn't.  No need for any expensive calculations for that.

Yes, a "feature" from 10 years ago...I guess you can't do better with a 486DX2-66 as server  :D

(ok that was easy  :angel: )
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: toonces3 on June 11, 2008, 12:49:14 PM
I don't want to ankle hump, but doggone moot you've been making some good points on the board lately.

 :salute
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Adonai on June 11, 2008, 01:24:00 PM
Worst feature in the game, 10 years in.  It could spread out its seeding box the more you maneuver and the faster and further you are from the guns, but doesn't.  No need for any expensive calculations for that. 
A fighter flying at 450mph, miles away from the CV, behind mountains, shouldn't get hit and damaged 5 bursts in. If the collision calcs against the landscape aren't possible, then an emulation of the effect could be made by proportionately spreading out or tightening the seed box.  It's anything but obvious how everything in the game is so well done, but not this.

Not even CV Ack, I ran into double dose of nasty ack - Bishops had a CV off A92 in orange Around (where tank town is) -
Not only I get peppered by CV Ack running away but - double the ack as the Factory ack started shooting at me.

Double the ack leads to one thing - I had no more 109 left. Oh who'd think I duck behind the mountains I'd be safe, noooo
thats where I got nailed 3 times in a row, first took my oil second a PW and third my wing.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: moot on June 11, 2008, 01:30:42 PM
Adonai, when you really need to save your bacon, you can dive to below 3k... Somehow it doesn't seem to work (I can't recall if it's supposed to or not) if you're hugging the ground over >3kft land.
I don't want to ankle hump, but doggone moot you've been making some good points on the board lately.

 :salute
Believe it or not, it's not my idea, and the guy that came up with it is French! :P
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Adonai on June 11, 2008, 01:34:19 PM
Adonai, when you really need to save your bacon, you can dive to below 3k... Somehow it doesn't seem to work (I can't recall if it's supposed to or not) if you're hugging the ground over >3kft land.Believe it or not, it's not my idea, and the guy that came up with it is French! :P

Problem was the mountains were above 3k, and i was dancing around them tryin to be lowest i could be.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Sloehand on June 11, 2008, 02:32:22 PM
Quite some time back (don't even remember the map), I'm climbing a very steep mountain in an Osti trying to get to a factory.  There is another factory fairly close by as well and out of sight.  All of a sudden, puffing ack is going off all around my Osti!  On the ground!  LOL That was a weird experience.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Nilsen on June 11, 2008, 04:35:48 PM
That should teach all you over 3k alt monkeys to get down were you belong  :o
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: evenhaim on June 11, 2008, 04:39:04 PM
<has film of me in a 262 within a few miles of a cv not even in vis range, and no puffs at all just 1 puff and boom like 500mph laser gun with perfect aim.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Lusche on June 11, 2008, 04:43:13 PM
Problem was the mountains were above 3k, and i was dancing around them trying to be lowest i could be.

Remember A2 on Mindanao? Base was at 5K, troop strat was only like 3 miles away but at sea level. When the enemy captured the zone base, you were in puffy ack while still rolling on field...  :rofl
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: moot on June 11, 2008, 05:03:51 PM
That should teach all you over 3k alt monkeys to get down were you belong  :o
http://rapidshare.com/files/121784490/film27_0000.ahf.html
...
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: angelsandair on June 11, 2008, 05:05:26 PM
I have been around when there was a CV, not even in vis range killing me in 1 or 2 shots. I think I may have some film of it, (but I may have deleted it, I deleted all my film a while ago). It is very frustrating, how about it starts firing when you are like 6k from the carrier? Or 5k or something...
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: BaldEagl on June 11, 2008, 05:10:13 PM
Quite some time back (don't even remember the map), I'm climbing a very steep mountain in an Osti trying to get to a factory.  There is another factory fairly close by as well and out of sight.  All of a sudden, puffing ack is going off all around my Osti!  On the ground!  LOL That was a weird experience.

I had that happen too.  I think that was in AHI.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: blkmgc on June 11, 2008, 06:01:57 PM
Damn ack weenies, best squad in the game. <GDR>
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Yenny on June 11, 2008, 06:29:00 PM
I lost a 262 to puffy ack a bit ago. 1st few hits were close, so I nose down and dove out of it. Pushing almost 650knts and it still took me out=/ Even worst, I had no visual on the CV.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: lyric1 on June 11, 2008, 06:31:13 PM
Remember A2 on Mindanao? Base was at 5K, troop strat was only like 3 miles away but at sea level. When the enemy captured the zone base, you were in puffy ack while still rolling on field...  :rofl
Yes I miss that map always was one of my favourites.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: DaveJ on June 11, 2008, 06:33:20 PM
Puffy ack should be perked. 1 perk per shot sounds reasonable, I think.  :D


No but really, puffy ack is one of the major downfalls of this game (along with the Spixteen and Wirble). I've been 1 pinged by puffy ack at 17k and going 375mph IAS. It's absolutely ridiculously strong, accurate, and unescapable.

And by the way, 38s seem to be the favorite target of puffy ack.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: BGBMAW on June 11, 2008, 06:51:16 PM
crying weenies is all i can think of


downfalls..werble and spixteen?lololollolol...You need more training

Dont hang out in puffy ak..problem solved..stay under 3 k
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: waystin2 on June 11, 2008, 06:56:26 PM

Trying so hard to maintain my nicest guy in Aces High persona.....

Can't stop myself...

Be nice Waystin2...


Dear Sirs,

Please don't fly near the puffy ack, please don't fly low near Wirbels, and if the Spit 16 is so uber please try flying it yourself.  This should solve all your problems.

<Salute>

Waystin2

Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Urthona on June 11, 2008, 07:18:57 PM
I believe that for a given amount of time spent in puffy ack, the faster you go the worse it is.  It's like running in the rain -- the faster you run the more drops you collide with.   The only advantage of going fast is that you can get out of it quicker.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: RumbleB on June 11, 2008, 10:23:39 PM
Not even CV Ack, I ran into double dose of nasty ack - Bishops had a CV off A92 in orange Around (where tank town is) -
Not only I get peppered by CV Ack running away but - double the ack as the Factory ack started shooting at me.

Double the ack leads to one thing - I had no more 109 left. Oh who'd think I duck behind the mountains I'd be safe, noooo
thats where I got nailed 3 times in a row, first took my oil second a PW and third my wing.

You and me need to play poker  :aok
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Nwbie on June 11, 2008, 11:01:07 PM
The ack is fine as it is - it is way too easy to sink the cv group now as it is and it always ruins a good furball going, drives me nuts seeing a guy come in with a box of buffs and dive bomb it - they should die from ack as soon as they point the nose down


my 2 cents

NwBie

Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: BnZ on June 11, 2008, 11:29:37 PM
Puffy ack is like the IRS. Everyone hates it, but no one ever gets around to blowing it up.

The ack is fine as it is - it is way too easy to sink the cv group now as it is and it always ruins a good furball going, drives me nuts seeing a guy come in with a box of buffs and dive bomb it - they should die from ack as soon as they point the nose down


my 2 cents

NwBie





Um, no, sorry. First, what about all the people trying to furball with an enemy CV around? Puffy ack ain't like  auto-ck, wirblewinds or even a manned 5 incher. If you are within 2 miles of the carrier, it can get you and it is absolutely random with no "rules"you can follow to avoid it (read: Don't try to follow planes into the autoack).
Second, it doesn't seem to hit lanc-stukas, a guy in a 5 incher usually has to do that, it seems to hit high, fast, fighters miles away who may not even know they are anywhere near a carrier. Third and finally, by its very tendency to begin puffing around high planes at very long ranges, it probably has needlessly given away the position of CVs too early many a time.


Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Nwbie on June 11, 2008, 11:33:28 PM
Puffy ack is like the IRS. Everyone hates it, but no one ever gets around to blowing it up.



Um, no, sorry. First, what about all the people trying to furball with an enemy CV around? Puffy ack ain't like  auto-ck, wirblewinds or even a manned 5 incher. If you are within 2 miles of the carrier, it can get you and it is absolutely random with no "rules"you can follow to avoid it (read: Don't try to follow planes into the autoack).
Second, it doesn't seem to hit lanc-stukas, a guy in a 5 incher usually has to do that, it seems to hit high, fast, fighters miles away who may not even know they are anywhere near a carrier. Third and finally, by its very tendency to begin puffing around high planes at very long ranges, it probably has needlessly given away the position of CVs too early many a time.




The only time i see it a problem when there is a furball going is on that guy who floats above the pack waiting to pick - the guys in the pack turning and burning rarely get hit - it is always the lone guy out there trying to take advantage - puffy ack should be deadlier - too easy to get close to the cv group as it is.

Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: BnZ on June 11, 2008, 11:50:11 PM
Well, OBVIOUSLY if you are not doing an FM2 vrs. Hurri vrs. Zeke vrs. Seafire etc. stall-fight 50 above the deck, you are playing the game wrong and deserve to be struck down by a highly illogical puffy-ack targeting system! Everyone knows this to be true...  :rolleyes:

(BTW, I've said it once and it remains so: In multi-bandit situations in this game, the vast majority of the kills are picks, and the difference between a typicall "furballer" aircraft trying to pick you out of a 1v1 and a Pony diving at mach .7 is that the latter is vastly easier to see and avoid.)

Back to topic though, wouldn't it suit your concerns better if the puffy ack actually had some logic to what it targeted...say perhaps the heaviest bomb-lugger nearest the carrier?
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Nwbie on June 12, 2008, 12:11:46 AM
"Well, OBVIOUSLY if you are not doing an FM2 vrs. Hurri vrs. Zeke vrs. Seafire etc. stall-fight 50 above the deck, you are playing the game wrong and deserve to be struck down by a highly illogical puffy-ack targeting system! Everyone knows this to be true...  "

Not what i said - just your interpretation - all I noted was that the guy floating above -out of the pack - is most likely going to get hit - and deservedly so - he opens himself up to the ack targeting him - by not being closer to the pack of ack-friendly non targeted planes - and it is obvious that the majority of those are people hoping to pick the less advantaged one already in a turn fight - it happens on a regular basis -
And Yes - i agree - buffs should be able to be hit by ack a lot easier than it is now - personally i wish they could be hit 20k out - they should blow up as soon as they point the nose down - -of course the ones not designed to dive - 17's, 24's etc...  its just to gamey and ruins the play of everyone...

again
only my 2 cents

NwBie
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: hubsonfire on June 12, 2008, 12:19:28 AM
Proximity to friendlies has nothing to do with any of the AI ack coding. Only your altitude and proximity to the fleet are factored in. Also, the ack doesn't "fire", the shell bursts are randomly generated in a box around enemies who are within the alt/distance. The low cons are not even targeted by the AI flak, which is why NOE bomber formations suiciding into the fleet is a proven tactic.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: BnZ on June 12, 2008, 12:20:40 AM
Consider the fact that some guy is randomly flying somewhere in the same sector as a carrier, doesn't even see it, then starts seeing puffy ack around him, the first thing is does is type "CV at X:XX:XX keypad X into the text buffer". Giving anyone who wants to a more than fair chance to egg the carrier before battle is even joined.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Bruv119 on June 12, 2008, 12:26:07 AM
shooting through the hills is my biggest problem with it. 

I will offer a solution though.  If its a gun it can be killed right? 

if its a strat dial 000 and ask for your local scorepotato to come and pork the hell out of it and make sure he gets the guns first.

Enemy cv's are obviously slightly tougher to deal with and im all for a cv being a PITA to kill and puffy should be dangerous.


Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: DaveJ on June 12, 2008, 07:13:11 AM
crying weenies is all i can think of


downfalls..werble and spixteen?lololollolol...You need more training



GOSH! I knew what I was missing! I need more training. Wow, thanks for that.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: BaldEagl on June 12, 2008, 08:35:04 AM
shooting through the hills is my biggest problem with it. 

Yes, I hate that through the hills c*** too.  What's up with that?
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Yossarian on June 12, 2008, 09:01:29 AM
I'm largely fine with the puffy ack the way it is.  EXCEPT for the shooting through mountains.  Also, I think we should be able to destroy it in the same way that we can destroy field ack guns.

<S>

Yossarian
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: moot on June 12, 2008, 01:39:38 PM
I wouldn't mind if the ack was twice as lethal.  I just want it to at least pretend to obey the laws of physics. Gun-to-target time of travel delay in aim corrections, or something emulating the effect.  Like a loosening or tightening of the box, proportional to your velocity and distance from the guns.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: crockett on June 12, 2008, 01:51:04 PM
I lost a 262 to puffy ack a bit ago. 1st few hits were close, so I nose down and dove out of it. Pushing almost 650knts and it still took me out=/ Even worst, I had no visual on the CV.

I've lost a few because of puffy. With the exception of this morning I tend to stay away from CV fights these days.

A perfect example of how bad AH puffy works is right here in this picture..
(http://www.wargamerx.com/temp/puffy.jpg)

Oh it this picture was just before the puffy hit me directly into the cockpit blowing me up instantly.
This is the film..  http://www.wargamerx.com/temp/puffy.ahf

Nothing kills a fight faster than puffy and it never kills the guys actually bombing the CV's.. (ie level bombers) Yet it can zero in a 262 a quarter sector away. IMO puffy should be a manned gun and not auto.. That way players can aim it at the "real" threats top a CV.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: crockett on June 12, 2008, 02:03:02 PM
Puffy ack should be perked. 1 perk per shot sounds reasonable, I think.  :D


No but really, puffy ack is one of the major downfalls of this game (along with the Spixteen and Wirble). I've been 1 pinged by puffy ack at 17k and going 375mph IAS. It's absolutely ridiculously strong, accurate, and unescapable.

And by the way, 38s seem to be the favorite target of puffy ack.

Only reason to dislike the wirble is if you are a vulcher, with the exception of defending against a GV attack. If you don't vulch then they shouldn't bug you. :lol 
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Lusche on June 12, 2008, 02:10:17 PM
I wouldn't mind if the ack was twice as lethal.  I just want it to at least pretend to obey the laws of physics. Gun-to-target time of travel delay in aim corrections, or something emulating the effect.  Like a loosening or tightening of the box, proportional to your velocity and distance from the guns.

But actually that's the way puffy ack works: Explosions appear randomly within a box drawn around your plane. The size of that box is depending of your speed, your pulled G's (=turning) and distance to ack. Flying faster while maneuvering at a bigger distance lessens the probability of getting it.

And of course there is some chance that you're getting hit when following an enemy into ack.. just like in real life. "There is no thing as friendly ack"

So far I have lost some fighter's to "friendly" ack, but I have lost far more bombers to enemy puffy, both above strat targets as well as enemy CV's.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: moot on June 12, 2008, 02:42:03 PM
You're sure about this?   That film is the first of two times in <10min where I ran into puffy, both times that fast, and the first time I had already lost a flap on maybe the 3d or 4th burst.  That's the first thing.

The second thing is that there's no time delay in the box following you.  There ought to be one.  Just like in real life, the shells went where the guns pointed them at in expectation of the targets speed and velocity at the time they were fired.  Just like we don't get instant hit-scan ballistics in the mannable 5" guns.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Lusche on June 12, 2008, 03:00:14 PM
You're sure about this?   

I am, 'cause that's the way Hitech explained puffy ack in various threads, for example here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,173460.msg1987753.html#msg1987753
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: moot on June 12, 2008, 03:09:13 PM
Well.. Then I must have some sort of observer bias, because I definitely notice more damage in fighters, while bombers seldom take damage unless someone's shooting the manned 5" at them.

The second point still stands.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: AKDogg on June 12, 2008, 03:48:21 PM
I have noticed that the faster u go in the CV puffy ack no matter what alt, will hit u more then going slower and flying level.  Getting puffy ack through mountains is also false.  Pretty amazing flak shells to go through mountains.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: moot on June 12, 2008, 07:33:10 PM
It wouldn't even matter if the shells detonated with a delay as though they had real ballistics..  You could easily dodge them from a distance.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Lonmower on June 13, 2008, 01:24:55 AM
Puffy through mountains realy suck. :cry Awile ago i was fighting a F4U, just so happend that when i caught him we where over a frendly strat. I was just about to seal the deal when BOOM :furious, my own puffy ack killed me then it got the F4U, man i was pissed. Untill then i never realy paid much atention to the puffy.
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: MajIssue on June 13, 2008, 02:21:58 PM
Problem was the mountains were above 3k, and i was dancing around them tryin to be lowest i could be.
I noticed that too. Strat tgt ack is not affected by your altitude AGL but will stop shooting at you at less than 3K MSL regardless of the terrain around you!
Title: Re: Puffy ack
Post by: Yossarian on June 13, 2008, 02:41:52 PM
Wait....if this puffy ack actually is designed to help stop people lancstukaing or whatever they do to blow up CV's, why is it only effective above 3K...?

If I'm really, really determined to get rid of a CV, I won't come at 3K.  I'll come in at 0.03K.