Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Spatula on January 17, 2001, 05:10:00 PM
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Had a rough time with ramming other planes last night. I tend to rope-a-dope alot and that leads to a vertical HO at times with my nose facing downwards and if its timed not quite right i run the real risk of hitting the other plane.
Now what bugs me is that it seems to be me that always dies. It seems the ramming rules favour the person who has the either the lower airspeed or has his nose facing upward - not sure which.
Now the thing that really bugs me is that one plane gets wrecked (normally me) and other flys off like nothing happened - sometimes even gets a kill (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) . I vote to make ramming a mutually damaging affair - as it should be...
This "two planes collide, and only one gets damaged" rule is plain wrong.
Please i ask HTC to, at the very least, clarify the ramming logic used, and i petition them to change it to mutual damage.
Just so people dont start saying "well you should be more carefull", thats probably true, but it is not the point im trying to make.
Please reply to support or critique.
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Overlord Spatula
Real men dont need no stinkin cannons
(http://www.spatula.co.nz/aceshigh/spatula_sig1.jpg)
=357th Pony Express=
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 01-17-2001).]
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It favors whoever was on the front end on which the collision did not occur. Due to internet lag when you collide, odds are their front end does not show a collision. Even if their front end shows an eminent collision you lose because it happened first on your front end.
It can't really be done any other way. They have to give each front end a chance to dodge the collision.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Karnak:
It can't really be done any other way. They have to give each front end a chance to dodge the collision.
I disagree, gun damage is calculated on your FE and sent to the other parties FE to inflict the damage necessary. Why is this any different? If they get the chance to avoid the collision then if they manage to, it should tell your FE that the collision was avoided, and no damage should be taken by either.
If both FEs get a collision then dmg is mutual. If only on determines a collision then no dmg should be taken by either (cause one plane must have avoided it).
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Spatula, I was just headed here to post the same dam thing.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Karnak, so are u saying it's down to who ever see's the collision?
I've ended up colliding with roughly 10 planes in the last 2 months. Some my fault, others not. Usually the collision happens out of my sight "under my nose" and I have never flown away from one. The other plane always fly's off to shoot my chute or whatever.
Intentional ramming is not a problem here and both planes should receive the damage imo.
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Wingnut
Luftjagerkorps
(http://www.facelink.com/edit/raw/rawimage/27/1444127.gif)
The quality of the box matters little. Success depends upon the man who sits in it - Baron Manfred von Richthofen
[This message has been edited by Wingnut_0 (edited 01-17-2001).]
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Uh... have any of you ever tried one of those sims where indeed rams kill both parties? Trust me, the whines the current system generates are far fewer.
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Preach on Spatula! I've been noticing this for a while now. Seems that the guy with the lower airspeed wins everytime. Really annoying to watch from your rear view as the other guy flies away with no damage.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/logo.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 01-17-2001).]
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Indeed.
The current collision system is fine. (Indicated by the fact that it's whined about so little.)
In other games complaints about collisions have made CHog-whining in AH look like child's play. Dinger is right. You have NO idea.
Just trust me on this one..you DON'T want a system other than one where you die when your FE sees a collision.
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If there were damage to both planes you can be sure the intentional rams would increase dramatically. If a player doesn't care whether he dies or not, he probably wouldn't hesitate to ram the other guy.
bowser
[This message has been edited by bowser (edited 01-18-2001).]
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Because, experience from playing games with 2-party collisions shows that what you see as an intentional ram isn't. Lag is about 1/2 to 1 second, folks (it's not just ping times). So when the guy whom you think is intentionally ramming you actually slams into your plane, he's looking at an HO from 300 yards. 2-party collisions are a real eye-opener when your plane explodes 500 yards from the other guy's.
With the lag, it's very hard to intentionally ram somebody. I have done it. Once. In a c-47 vs. c-47 duel, when the other guy thought he could just fly straight and level away from me.
[edit: ok, so I didn't quite get Bowser's point the first time through. Still, this is how 2-plane collisions work]
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 01-17-2001).]
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hihi.. I once rammed B-26 in my fockewulf accidentally when I misjudged my ability to turn.
Came with 6 hi attack against unaware B26, hit just couple and compressed below him, then decided to pull up if I'd get nice belly shots, but instead I did fly right past front of him and wondered next time did my SA break up or whered did that B26 dissapear - it had collided on my fockewulf going right up at 300mph. (guess I can call me lucky and him verry unlucky for colliding that fast plane going almost right up)
so hmm.. bit unfair things in the collision things if someone would train alot to abuse those.
although, this is probably best way to make it work.
but these accidental rammings without head on are quite funny
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I'm always getting rammed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-17-2001).]
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OK let me understand this. You are advocating a system whereby BOTH parties take damage?
So you go vertical, I follow, you reverse at the top and I pull hard before collision and miss you. Meanwhile, you are screaming straight down towards where I used to be, intent only on gunning me in the face.
On your FE, you collide. On my FE, I miss (because of my evasive).
And you want ME to take collision damage?
Sorry, think again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps
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Originally posted by Jekyll:
OK let me understand this. You are advocating a system whereby BOTH parties take damage?
So you go vertical, I follow, you reverse at the top and I pull hard before collision and miss you. Meanwhile, you are screaming straight down towards where I used to be, intent only on gunning me in the face.
On your FE, you collide. On my FE, I miss (because of my evasive).
And you want ME to take collision damage?
Sorry, think again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
No, *read* my second post. It said that if both parties FEs agree that a ram has occured (ie seen on both FEs) then damage is mutual. If FEs disagree then someone must have avoided the ram so no-one takes any damage.
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 01-18-2001).]
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Yah agreed with Spatula, that rule makes sense.
Either there is a collision, and both take damage, or there ain't.
Not both (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.geocities.com/nirfurian/stSanta.jpg)
"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht
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Sorry Spatula, it would never work. One person would normally ALWAYS avoid, even if by accident. Unless the two planes were perfectly aligned from a long way out, you would NEVER have both guys colliding. One player would see the collision, and the other would see a near-miss almost every time. The end result of this system would be fly-through gunnery passes, and you don't want to go there. I could bounce a buff by diving on it and flying STRAIGHT THROUGH, firing away, using your system and not have to worry about dying. Net lag would mean that I passed behind the buff on his FE, so on mine I get a fly-through gunnery pass.
The current system is the only one that makes sense given the reality of the network environment we operate in.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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This has got to be one of the most mystifying threads I've seen yet. What Spatula is asking for is quite simply "REALISM". There is no way it can be judged otherwise..and Lag Schmag, who cares if some twit wants to kill you with a RAM, it's happened to me. Truly accidental on my part as this guy was banged up bad and had a couple on his tail, me on his front left quarter moving in for a sideswipe when he suddenly cranked it around and I was just too slow to react and got rammed and died...he flew on (for a short while as his turn allowed his tails to catch up). Then proceeded to announce "Figured I was dieing anyway so I thought I'd take ya with me"...it's BS but it can and does happen. Nobody can convince me that both taking ram damage can't be done. I absolutely never intentionaly ram anyone else and by cod if someone does me then they deserve to take the damage too, 100% of the time...period. Besides, as stated before, do you want realism or not (for the Whine Whiner's)?
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As things stand now if both front ends see the collision then both planes take damage (had it happen to me by accident before), if one of the doesn't see the collision then no damage occurs to the person.
This is how it should be. Why should someone, who on their front end didn't collide be penalised for your stupidity? Also why should you 'get away' with actions that lead to a collision on your front end because the other guy took the right actions and evaded (or the collision was never even going to happen from his point of view)?
No the way it works now is pretty much on the money for a game of this nature (at least until someone figures out how to make networks work at faster-than-light speeds ;)
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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
Sorry Spatula, it would never work. One person would normally ALWAYS avoid, even if by accident. Unless the two planes were perfectly aligned from a long way out, you would NEVER have both guys colliding. One player would see the collision, and the other would see a near-miss almost every time. The end result of this system would be fly-through gunnery passes, and you don't want to go there. I could bounce a buff by diving on it and flying STRAIGHT THROUGH, firing away, using your system and not have to worry about dying. Net lag would mean that I passed behind the buff on his FE, so on mine I get a fly-through gunnery pass.
The current system is the only one that makes sense given the reality of the network environment we operate in.
Good point Leph. Hmmm, well i guess it will have to stay the same way it is then. This must have been what those others meant by: "trust me you dont want it that way". I dont accept answers like that. Thanks for taking the time to explain why leph.
Graywolf. If that is the case, then that solution is acceptable.
I still want HTC to formally comment on the ramming logic.
Thanks for the input.
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I'd really like to see an official comment on this subject also. I understand Leph/Graywolfs points of view but for the moment I'll consider them "theory" based on my previous post and another incident I had where actually survived a ram. I was a 190 blazeing away on a 26 (maybe a 17) and I got carried away thinking "this guyz gonna pop any second" (hey it was an A8!!), well he didn't pop and from what I could figure out my right wing must have come in contact with his perpendicular as I attempted to get out of a collision (musta been on auto and afk, no guns just straight and level). Only thing I can figure is yes, lag was prevalent as the damage done to the bomber was minimal at best by view, did my too late but best attempt to avoid the collision, heard the "ram", suffered shock that I was still flying normal, then by the time I rolled back to look the bomber was just plain gone! So, without sounding like someone looking to take advantage of lag, I gotta ask, who was the lag "working for" in this instance...The answer would very readily appear to be both.
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"...I absolutely never intentionaly ram anyone else and by cod if someone does me then they deserve to take the damage too, 100% of the time...period. Besides, as stated before, do you want realism or not (for the Whine Whiner's)? ..."
If this was reality then there wouldn't be a problem, since almost nobody would ram intentionally. They know if they did, they would be dead.
In AH there is no such penalty, you just replane. Since there is no penalty, as in real life, you have to have some other sort of control.
bowser
[This message has been edited by bowser (edited 01-18-2001).]
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Search past topics. Have stated all of the above resones why we have the current system. Btw I have tried all 4 methods (no collisions, one colide only , both agree for collide, or 1 collide both damage).
HiTech
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Thnx HT for your response (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Cool, we are having a civil, open discussion. <S> For the discussion and having an open mind guys! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Swamprat,
If you want more clarification, please take a look at this article: http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/netlag.htm (http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/netlag.htm)
Although this article was written about Warbirds, it applies in this case. HiTech wrote both systems, and Aces High uses the same collision system that Warbirds did. IE: you only die if your FE sees the crash. Actually Swamprat, if you think about it it's almost impossible to "intentionall ram" somebody else in AH, since you can't predict the lag well enough to make it work. However, if I changed the system so that both guys died if either saw a collision, then I COULD deliberately ram you, and there would be no way you could avoid it. Even it you avoided on your FE, as long as I hit you on mine I would kill you. That would be far worse than the current situation.
Some of us vets that have been around a while asked these same questions years ago. It took me a while to understand why this system is the only reasonable solution. Hopefully I can pass this knowledge along. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The bottom line is that with any of the other systems, you will either get killed from collisions you avoided on your FE, or allow fly-through gun passes. The current system AH uses is the best compromise in this environment, and IMHO the only reasonable choice.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 01-19-2001).]
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Have to agree with Lephturn & jekyll here guys. Until the day comes when we have zero lag net connections the current system is the only one that works.
You really don't think you have that much lag? Try this experiment.
Hook up with your fav wingman on RW, both pick the same planes, same fuel & ord.
Take off level at 5k, both lock in autopilot after your wingman is in formation on your 6.
Compare notes via RW on what distance he see's on his FE, compared to what you see on yours.
Even on days when connect is great for all concerened I've seen 250 to 500 yard difference.
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perhaps a simple solution would be to let the player who registers the collision result send that info to the player who is lagging(cant think of different term (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )and has yet to see the collision and make resulting kill void or an assist.this way it would be best to avoid ramming if we could (if kills is yer thrills).or a message saying '<player> has rammed' or something?.
this may even reduce HO's in general (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
what do you think?
hazed
btw i also seem to lose out on 70% of collisions but i have got away with kills for collisions (unintentional i assure you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) and i wouldnt argue if it is changed to an assist.
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Yeah the one sided collisions suck . How many times have we seen this . You saddle up on a bandit get in very close and he chops throttle and starts to scissor or starts stick stirring . You pull up so you don't over shoot into his guns, just as you do he begins an upswing of his breakdancing routine and Blamo ! You're in the tower, but he's still flying in his plane . This usually causes me to log off for the day .
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I never saw the problem with this, since you only get damage if your FE (ie You flying Your plane) runs into theirs. This only punishes you when you actually collide with someone, and offers you complete immunity to damage so long as you do not.
Guess I never got into the "why am I dead and he's alive" thing, I just figured I was dead because I screwed up.
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hello:
I dont know how it works when two planes collide, all I know is I am always the one looseing a wing and fallingf out of the sky. I do not remember one time when the other person died. I do not try to ram other planes, and I do not think they try to ram me. But only one pilot gets killed. and in this post, a lot of peolpe want it to stay that way. so what this means is we dont really want realisium in this game. I mean in WWII if two planes collided, they both went down.
either set it up that both planes go down or neither plane takes damage. plane and simple.
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wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
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Fishu I've had the same thing happen. I was following someone in a H2H game flying a B-17. I was above and behind him in a 109-G6 w/30mm. Just following him around, watching him blow stuff up; nothing major. Just for practice I told him I'd be making guns cold passes on him. He says ok and down I go. I went right underneath him, pulled up and started a zoom. When I looked behind me I didn't see that B-17. Here I am at 15k and 350mph wondering "WTF?! Where'd he go?". He told me a minute later I rammed him. "Ramed you? I missed you by 100 yards easy on my end."
He said "Nope, you hit me. I was in the ball turret and you slammed into the cockpit. I die."
Collision modeling is strange, but it works fine the way it is. I've never been killed by a ramming, and I've only once gotten a kill by ramming. Once in a year of playing online, offline and H2H. It works fine.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/custom1.jpg)
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From what i now understand: if your FE sees a collision you take damage, if theirs does, they take dmg.
Because of net lag effects (see Lephs post) this is the best way of doing it. If your FE sees the collision then yes you did collide with the nme plane, but due to lag on his FE it may look different - they may have avoided the collision, so why should they take damage where as far as they are concerned they managed to avoid it (put yourself in both shoes and think about it).
As it stands the onus is on you to avoid the collision, if you avoid it then damage will never be taken (any other way and you may 'mysteriously' take phantom damage from the others planes FE which may have seen a collision due to lag).
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S p a t u l a
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=357th Pony Express=