Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: flyboy96 on June 11, 2008, 08:09:25 PM
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I say that AH2 add the P-61 BLACK WIDOW.It was a fighter/bomber and would be a good addition to AH2 I think.
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It was a fighter/bomber
No it wasn't.
Northrop P61 Black Widow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-61_Black_Widow)
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Yes it is use this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-61_Black_Widow
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Yes it is use this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-61_Black_Widow
Did you even read it?
"The Northrop P-61 Black Widow was an American all-metal, twin-engine, twin-boom, monoplane night fighter and night intruder aircraft flown by the United States Army Air Forces during World War II. It was the only Allied purpose-built aircraft to serve as a radar-equipped night fighter."
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It said night fighter and night intruder aircraft which means it's a night bomber.
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I read it and i meant to say night fighter/night bomber but I mistakenly didn't type out night fighter/night bomber.
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But i still say Aces High II should add it,it was a GREAT plane it had been equiped with radar too.
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All of our planes in here have GPS radar ;)
BTW, the US has the largest plane set out of any country, I think it's time to give others a turn.
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I think it's time to give others a turn.
Agreed, time for some early war Japanese AC. :aok
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Agreed, time for some early war Japanese AC. :aok
I'd like the A6M3, Ki43(I think that's it... the one armed with 2 .30s?), Yak1, 7, and 3, and the Ju52 and He111. :)
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It said night fighter and night intruder aircraft which means it's a night bomber.
Don't you feel like a dum-dum. I really fear what my son has to deal with after I pass on.
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isn't that the 2nd P61 thread in a week ?
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isn't that the 2nd P61 thread in a week ?
Does it matter? :D
flyboy96, you should probably have posted this in the Wishlist forum. However, there are already 2 P-61 threads in there on the first page, so... ;)
But still, whatever it's role, the P-61 would be a really nice aircraft to have.
<S>
Yossarian
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P-61 Armament = 4 x 12.7mm Browning M2 machine guns in upper turret
4 x 20mm Hispano M2 cannons in ventral position (fixed forward-firing)
OPTIONAL:
4 x 1,600lb bombs underwing
6 x 5" HVAR unguided rockets underwing
1 x 1,000 bomb underfuselage (some variants)
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P-61 is rapidly becoming the new B-29 on the forum.
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The P-61 is becoming more popular than the B-29 because it was a great bomber because of the load it could carry far distances could easily reset a arena.
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Does it matter? :D
flyboy96, you should probably have posted this in the Wishlist forum. However, there are already 2 P-61 threads in there on the first page, so... ;)
But still, whatever it's role, the P-61 would be a really nice aircraft to have.
<S>
Yossarian
I agree,it would be a very nice eddition. :aok :aok :aok
(even though we couldn't use it as a night bomber or fighter,because in the game we don't get a lot of darkness)
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addition... not eddition.
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The P-61 is becoming more popular than the B-29 because it was a great bomber :huh because of the load it could carry far distances could easily reset a arena.
P-61 = definitive night fighter & occasional interdiction/night bomber
But i still say Aces High II should add it,it was a GREAT plane it had been equiped with radar too.
As I've stated before the SCR-720 had a range of less than 5 miles in Intercept Mode. That's less than visual range in AH now. Unless you're flying at night (which we don't) , the P-61's radar does nothing for you in AH. What's of more value is the amazing maneuverability and firepower of this big bird.
Public schools :rolleyes:
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FYI 742 Black widows were built. Thats just over half as many built as the Me262.
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FYI 742 Black widows were built. Thats just over half as many built as the Me262.
What's your point?
For a little perspective.
The total number of Ta 152 production is not well known but it is estimated to be approximately 150 aircraft of all types including prototypes.
And yet no complains about having it ehh?
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What's your point?
For a little perspective.
The total number of Ta 152 production is not well known but it is estimated to be approximately 150 aircraft of all types including prototypes.
And yet no complains about having it ehh?
If we didn't have it, I would say, "ya know, it would be nice, but there are other planes we need more". Same with the 262. If we get the P61, I won't complain. The more aircraft the better. But there are other, more important aircraft that in my opinion we need first.
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If we didn't have it, I would say, "ya know, it would be nice, but there are other planes we need more". Same with the 262. If we get the P61, I won't complain. The more aircraft the better. But there are other, more important aircraft that in my opinion we need first.
Ahh now this I agree with.
<S>
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Agreed, time for some early war Japanese AC. :aok
Yep and a true early war planeset covering 1939-1940.
ack-ack
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We also fielded nighter fighters that performed just as good, if not better than the Blackwidow. The P-38M is an example of one.
The definitive version of the P-61 was the P-61C and it came too late in the war to see any action whatsover.
ack-ack
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We also fielded nighter fighters that performed just as good, if not better than the Blackwidow. The P-38M is an example of one.
Performed better yes, but I bet it wasn't as effective. Night fighters don't need maneuverability as much as they need long legs, powerful radar, and devastating firepower.
so:
P-38M's range (good), P-61's range (better)
P-38M's AN/APS-6 radar (ok), P-61's SCR-720 radar (great)
P-38M's firepower (good), P-61's firepower (overwhelming)
Throw in the horrible accomodations for the radar operator in the P-38M (human pretzel) and the P-61 is the far better night fighter.:salute
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Performed better yes, but I bet it wasn't as effective. Night fighters don't need maneuverability as much as they need long legs, powerful radar, and devastating firepower.
so:
P-38M's range (good), P-61's range (better)
P-38M's AN/APS-6 radar (ok), P-61's SCR-720 radar (great)
P-38M's firepower (good), P-61's firepower (overwhelming)
Throw in the horrible accomodations for the radar operator in the P-38M (human pretzel) and the P-61 is the far better night fighter.:salute
Actually, the P-38M didn't lose any appreciable performance with the addition to the AN/APS-6 radar or the addition of a 2nd crewman and was more than suitable than the P-61A as a night fighter. Even with the improved 2250 hp R-2800-65 engines, the P-61A was slower than the P-38M at all altitudes and had a lower maximum ceiling (33,100ft for the P-61A compared to 40,000ft for the P-38M).
The British also after tests weren't impressed by the Black Widow and felt the night fighter version of the Mosquito was far better than the Black Widow.
As I mentioned earlier, the definitive version was the C model and that wasn't introduced until a couple of weeks before the war ended in the Pacific and never saw any action.
ack-ack
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(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9315/deadhorsebeat4uj4.gif) (http://imageshack.us)
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I don't know..I always enjoy the "early Japanese" or "Russian planeset" snobs myself.
Any plane we get is a bonus..period.
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Actually, the P-38M didn't lose any appreciable performance with the addition to the AN/APS-6 radar or the addition of a 2nd crewman and was more than suitable than the P-61A as a night fighter. Even with the improved 2250 hp R-2800-65 engines, the P-61A was slower than the P-38M at all altitudes and had a lower maximum ceiling (33,100ft for the P-61A compared to 40,000ft for the P-38M).
The British also after tests weren't impressed by the Black Widow and felt the night fighter version of the Mosquito was far better than the Black Widow.
As I mentioned earlier, the definitive version was the C model and that wasn't introduced until a couple of weeks before the war ended in the Pacific and never saw any action.
ack-ack
Ack-Ack,
You're throwing out more performance figures while completely missing the point. I said effectiveness, not performance. A F1 car performs a hell of a lot better than a school bus, but I wouldn't haul kids in it. Night fighters fly long missions in an unforgiving environment. Radar range and crew effectiveness are essential. The P-61 is superior on both counts.
As far as the Mossie goes, you're correct, but we were talking about the P-38M. The Brits did prefer the Mossie to the Widow. Does that surprise anyone? Keep in mind also that those Mossie Mk XVII's, XVIII's, and XIX's, as well as later models all had the SCR-720 radar from the P-61.
Night fighters aren't simply fighters that happen to fly at night. Their design requirements are completely different. Long endurance, a powerful radar to find enemy bombers, coupled with devastating firepower to take them out quickly when visibility is very poor or non-existent, are the key requirements. The Widow fills all these requirements far better than the P-38M.
:salute
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Ack-Ack,
You're throwing out more performance figures while completely missing the point. I said effectiveness, not performance. A F1 car performs a hell of a lot better than a school bus, but I wouldn't haul kids in it. Night fighters fly long missions in an unforgiving environment. Radar range and crew effectiveness are essential. The P-61 is superior on both counts.
As far as the Mossie goes, you're correct, but we were talking about the P-38M. The Brits did prefer the Mossie to the Widow. Does that surprise anyone? Keep in mind also that those Mossie Mk XVII's, XVIII's, and XIX's, as well as later models all had the SCR-720 radar from the P-61.
Night fighters aren't simply fighters that happen to fly at night. Their design requirements are completely different. Long endurance, a powerful radar to find enemy bombers, coupled with devastating firepower to take them out quickly when visibility is very poor or non-existent, are the key requirements. The Widow fills all these requirements far better than the P-38M.
:salute
You're missing the point...the Blackwidow you want in the game never saw any action. Yes, the P-61C was an excellent night fighter/attack platform but it never saw any action as it entered service too late in the war when it was pretty much over. However, the P-61A and B models were different and didn't perform or were more effective than the P-38M, F6F5-N, Mosquito, etc., and those would be the versions of the Blackwidow we'd get if they were ever added to the game, not the C version.
So yes, the P-61A and B models weren't any more effective than the Night Lightning, F6F5-N or the night fighter versions of the Mosquito.
P-61A
(http://aerofiles.com/north-p61a.jpg)
P-61C
(http://media.nasm.si.edu/webimages/640/WEB10586-2006_640.jpg)
ack-ack
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Range and duration weren't always necessary. The night fighters flew set paths on defensive patterns, around the intended targets. British night fighters didn't need to fly all the way to Germany, they flew over London and shot the bombers down locally.
109s, 190s, hurricanes, spitfires, all of these relatively-short-range fighters were pressed into night fighter duties.
Range and duration weren't ever really the most important part of night fighting. Finding and killing the target were first and formost
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OH HELL.....if everyone else is going to be begging for NIGHT FIGHTERS in a game with NO DARKNESS i might as well get in on it also......
I WANT THE P-38M NIGHT FIGHTER!
It could also carry Bombs and Rockets. :aok
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5f/P-38M_Night_Fighter.jpg)
:salute
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You're missing the point...the Blackwidow you want in the game never saw any action. Yes, the P-61C was an excellent night fighter/attack platform but it never saw any action as it entered service too late in the war when it was pretty much over. However, the P-61A and B models were different and didn't perform or were more effective than the P-38M, F6F5-N, Mosquito, etc., and those would be the versions of the Blackwidow we'd get if they were ever added to the game, not the C version.
So yes, the P-61A and B models weren't any more effective than the Night Lightning, F6F5-N or the night fighter versions of the Mosquito.
P-61A
ack-ack
Granted, this is purely academic, since NF's have no place in AH, but
Show me where I referred to the P-61C specifically? I've never made any distinction between the A, B, and C models in regard to the most important requirement, which was being able to find the enemy and apply heavy firepower. All models of the Black Widow carry the SCR-720, a unit with far more power (75 kw) and range than the AN/APS-6 (35 kw). It allows the crew to detect targets at much greater distances, with less support from ground-based radars. The much smaller units on the P-38M and F-6F5-N don't provide nearly the range of the SCR-720, argueably the best AI set of the war.
To quote Krusty:
Finding and killing the target were first and formost
Which the SCR-720 did better than any other unit. And only larger birds like the P-61, P-70, and the Mossie NF's had it. Not the P-38M, not the F-6F5-N.
:salute
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It's not as if the onboard dar was the only thing. Ground radar vectored them in until they were within a couple of miles of the target, then they started scanning with their own unit.
FYI: The Mossie is a very compact plane. The cockpit area is quite cramped with 2 folks in it (one pilot one radar operator).
The Beaufighter, also rather compact, also had a somewhat cramped cockpit.
Doesn't take a giant airframe to mount a powerful radar unit. Also, doesn't take a giant radar setup to get the job done. Even the smaller ones found the enemy.
Keep in mind the actual attack was done visually.
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That was true for defending night fighters, but offensive NFs (over Germany, and Japan) rarely had GCI to help them. Also, even defensive NFs often prosecuted contacts they made on thier own.
As for the various models, you have to remember that each had a role. You can't give the USN a P-61 (or a Mosquito) in 1945, its not CV capable, so the F6Fs and F4Us had their part to play (they fit on the deck), which was defending the Fleet at night, as well as doing offensive ops over enemy territory.
Nothing wrong with the P-38M, it had the advantage of being faster and better performing than the P-61, so it could close a contact quicker, so its not like it had no advantages. The P-61, P-70, and Mossie, and Beaufighter (whos radar operator was behind the pilot), had larger, more ergonomical crew quarters, dedicated radar operators, and larger radars, so that was their advantage.
...they all had strengths and weaknesses, and sometimes different roles.
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Information on the two main types of AI Radar's used on US Nightfighters during WW2:
http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/radar-8.htm (it's slow, give it time to load)
The "AIA" type was used on the F4U(N), F6F(N), P-38M & TBM(N) in a pod mounting. It was also known as the AN/APS-6.
SUMMARY:The AN/APS-6 radar was to scan a 120 deg cone-shaped area ahead of the aircraft flight path in selected ranges of five, 25 and 65 miles for radar search, with the maximum range extended to 100 miles for radar beacon. When within one-half mile of a selected target, the set could be switched to the gun aim mode for accurate aiming and firing of the aircraft guns.
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In this book I have (http://www.picburst.com/uploads/62f2e8edaa.jpg) (http://www.picburst.com) It says a number of P61 squadrons had nothing to shoot at in it's night time roll as there were very few enemy night fighters left in operation. So most were used in the day in an attack roll on ground targets with bombs & rockets. So in my opinion the entire radar issue for AH11 is Moot.
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I think you mis-read what was said. P-61s were were used for night interdiction/intruder with bombs.
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P61 would add nothing to the Game,it was a dedicated Night fighter and the perfect example of a plane designed by committee,P38m was a better night fighter and aircraft,we don't need that either. :aok
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I think you mis-read what was said. P-61s were were used for night interdiction/intruder with bombs.
If this reply was meant for me? No I didn't misread the prior posts I understood what was written. My book shows pictures with P61's loaded with bombs & rockets for day time missions & makes mention that this was the role that a lot of p61's were used for. Some squadrons never got to use the p61 in a night fighter role. Per the book.
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If this reply was meant for me? No I didn't misread the prior posts I understood what was written. My book shows pictures with P61's loaded with bombs & rockets for day time missions & makes mention that this was the role that a lot of p61's were used for. Some squadrons never got to use the p61 in a night fighter role. Per the book.
Yes, P-61 units did do daytime missions but the majority of their missions were in night time, usually in night interdiction (attack) missions. They flew far more attack missions at night than they did in the daytime.
ack-ack
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lyric, I suggest you read the Osprey book on the P-61. Especially the caption for the photo on pg 28.
Anyways, there was the much more capable A-26 for daylight missions.
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lyric, I suggest you read the Osprey book on the P-61. Especially the caption for the photo on pg 28.
Anyways, there was the much more capable A-26 for daylight missions.
Thank you for the book reference. Also agreed on the A-26 in fact here In Urbana Ohio the local WW11 aircraft restorer has purchased an A-26 & will arrive soon I am told. Quite a nice collection he is getting together two b-25J's one b-17g a c47 & now the A-26.
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Ok, can we get the plane now? please? :D
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I really fear what my son has to deal with after I pass on.
Me, Zoozoo, or CMustard as president?
:noid :noid :noid :noid :noid :O
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By the by guys, night intruder doesn't necessarily mean ground attack. Many
intruder sorties were flown to attack enemy night bombers and fighters rtbing to
their own bases.
I guess a good way to sort them out would be night fighters generally operate
over friendly territory <which makes total sense when you factor in the GCA radar
ranges> and an intruder mission would be flown over enemy territory.
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Put the he 219 and the p61 :aok
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P-61 will just be an A-20 that doesn't shed its wings.
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P-61 will just be an A-20 that doesn't shed its wings.
Quite a bit more firepower.
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Yes it is use this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-61_Black_Widow
Its the same link and besides it says it was an all out night FIGHTER. This thread is suppose to be on the wishlist anyways.
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No it did not say it was an all out night fighter and i meant to put this in the wishlist but i thought i did when i clicked on this.
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Its the same link and besides it says it was an all out night FIGHTER. This thread is suppose to be on the wishlist anyways.
It was intended perform both night fighting and interdiction missions. It was not intended to just be a night fighter, otherwise why design the ability to carry ordnance?
Though, as I stated before, the idea of the P-61 you guys have is the one with the black paint job and that was the C model and never saw combat. That will not be the model we see in AH if we ever get one. We would get the A or B versions and people will sorely be disappointed that the Blackwidow didn't live up to their own built up perceptions.
ack-ack
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A-26 would be better...and easier :D
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They could add both the A and B,but I would go for the B.
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A26 andB26?
We habe the B26....and the A20. But A26 is quite more powerful....
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No it did not say it was an all out night fighter and i meant to put this in the wishlist but i thought i did when i clicked on this.
Even more reason why you shouldn't post. Mistakes, major problem. It barely did any bombing, it was a fighter point made.
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:huh
http://www.nightfighter.info/
Read it Rambo.
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Unlike the P-61, the P-38M never deployed overseas. All of them were delivered to the 484th Night Fighter Group, which was still working up at Fresno when the war ended.
P-61s were extremely effective in the ETO, where they were saw extensive use train busting at night (the only time trains could previously run in relative safety).
While we no longer have night time in AH2, the P-61 would still be very effective. Think of it as an A-20 on steroids. It would out-turn an F6F and out-climb a P-47D-11. The P-61B could haul up to 6,400 lb of bombs and rockets. I'd fly it. In fact, it would be the best GV buster in the game.
My regards,
Widewing
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Yes it would be the best GV buster.
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It would make a good additon, yes.
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We already have the best GV buster...the Lancaster ;)
We have only one German medium Bomber,one Japanese Bomber and no Russian Bombers.why on earth do we need another Allied attack Aircraft :mad:
We have the Mosquito,A20,B25.