Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sky Viper on April 04, 2001, 10:46:00 AM
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In Deja's thread reporting kill stats fighter vs. fighter, there was a question as to why so many still fly the F4U-1C.
Here is my POV:
I fly several different planes. Mostly because I like planes period, but generaly I find myself making the choice based on what Mission Role I wish to fly.
Generaly speaking in Tour 11 or so the CHog was my weapon of choice for A2A or A2G period. Reason: Cannons, engine power, and ord. I can wax an entire V field and a good majority of a small "A" field.
Uber? I don't think so...it has its obvious flaws.
As was pointed out, it's an easy kill in a close quarters fight.
So, if it is such an easy kill, then why are the K/D so high? Vulches, uber guns...maybe.
But, I gotta tell yas...I don't think I'm such a great pilot and yet my survival ability in the Hawg is rather high.
Last night for instance, I made an attack run on V46. This was interrupted by 2 La7s, 2 Spit V's and a P51. I was aided by 2 other pilots (La7 and P51 I believe) and together we eliminated the threat.
I was 300ft from the CV when my new PC locked up (ugh) and prevented me from landing 3 A2A kills 2 GV kills, 1 VH destruction, and 2 acks.
OK Vipe, your point?
A2A survival is, IMHO, mainly dependant on pilot decision.
In any fighter, the decision to extend and maintain Energy is the choice of life. Using this understanding and knowing your opponent's Aircraft are THE KEY's to making ANY Plane survive.
I have greatly increased my ability to survive using this thinking. My choice to stay in alone in a fight against 2+ opponents when I can extend is usually where I lose (and that goes for any plane). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Get to know your plane, get to know the other planes...fly them all. Each of us a plane in which we excell. That does not make it Uber and should not discourage you from flying it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Not to mention...Blue is my favorite color. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Viper
(http://www.siteviper.com/54sq/bbsigs/rfd.jpg)
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That and the fact that in a CHOG you can very much have the luxury of forgeting ACM to get a snapshot.In a DHOG that would be your doom.
Das 1 Ping wonder with unbelievable turn rate and rudder turn and a boatload of ammo. It is THE snapshot plane of choice.
The Chog is not easy to kill, its the pilot in it that is. Try shooting Torque or Kbman in their chogs. You'll get your bellybutton handed to you.
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Actually, I prefer the N1K for the snap shot, and if I blow it, the N1K has the ability to come around for another, ..-1C does not, unless in a very competent pilots hands, like Torque or KBman...
THat being said, haven't we hashed this Chog thing to its limit?
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Originally posted by Sky Viper:
As was pointed out, it's an easy kill in a close quarters fight.
Sorry mate, but disagree completely. HogC is a monster in close quarters, very good turner, impresive roller, great zoom-climber, one of the best divers and the best shapshooter. Uh! and keeps energy like a devil.
It is a plane full of advantages over any other, but its main problem is just his guns. With those four hispanos, most of the pilots dont work their victories at all, and once they decide to use the D model, their ACM capabilities are so degraded that the D seems (seing scores) to be a bad plane (and isn't).
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Data talks, roadkill walks.
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The Dhog is a good plane, the Chog is a good plane with 3 times the firepower.
ra
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I've taken Sky Viper's messa geand run it throught Der De-Bullsh|tter. Here's the result:
"d00d; I sn|p3 y00 w. l@$3r$!" aka "dude, i snipe you with lasers" a reference to the hispa...err urr, never mind
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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I like the 6 .50s in the DHog better than the 4 20mms in the CHog. I don't think that either plane is particularly stellar in close quarters battle. The CHog simply has the ability to fly through a fight taking snapshots.
The main myth behind the CHog's e-retention is due to the fact that they seldomely have to really engage anything. Once it gets turning and trying to hang with another hard-turning plane, its simply middle of the road.
It seems the Chog is more of a threat at 700 yards than it is at 200. The Yak is much better close quarters... but it needs to be 400 yards or less to get a kill. Its just that getting within 400 yards in a Yak isn't as much of a problem.
AKDejaVu
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The ONLY reason I ever flew the Chog is because, for whatever reason at that time, I felt like being totally rediculous, like a class clown.
I love the Corsair, always have, but those guns were so rediculously powerful that it was like having a sawed-off fully automatic unlimited (nearly) ammo supply -12 gauge shotgun in a battle where everyone else had rubber bands.....mostly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I never have given any of the Chog pros any undying respect. Its just too easy to rack up hundreds of kills a tour just by *being there*
Still, my overall view has been that Pyro put them in the (unperked, no value) lineup so have at it.
Y
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<sigh>
De-Bullsh|ter, can't snapshot, class clown...
Doh! I hoped some fun Aircraft talk would be available. I guess this Bar is full of nasty Old Farts with squeaky wrinkled wives waiting for them at home? <ducks> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<Walks to Juke Box and looks for happy songs>
Barkeep...A round for my friends please!
(http://www.siteviper.com/ikonboard/emoticons/cheers.gif)
Viper
[This message has been edited by Sky Viper (edited 04-04-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Sky Viper (edited 04-04-2001).]
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The chog is so good because of its cannos and because of its missing 600lbs of weight.
BTW Deja I apologize for this but you are either a fool or a lier when you say that 6 50cals are better than the 4 Hispanos on chog. I honestly dont mean that as a personal attack on you, but I simply dont understand how you could form such an opinion.
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BTW Deja I apologize for this but you are either a fool or a lier when you say that 6 50cals are better than the 4 Hispanos on chog.
I am neither. I didn't say the 6 50s were better than 4 hispanos. I said I LIKED the 6 .50s over the 4 hispanos. I feel this way because I like .50s ROF over the hitting power of the 20mm. I find it is more effective for taking out ack at airfields and I have better accuracy vs aircraft. The only time I really miss the hispanos is when I'm hitting a buff or have no rockets left against ground vehicles.
AKDejaVu
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grun... I believe that documents by F4UDoa and others have indicated that our hog climbs and turns a little too poorly. As if it weighed too much not, too little.
lazs
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cc Deja thx for your reasoning.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
The chog is so good because of its cannos and because of its missing 600lbs of weight.
(Sigh) haven't we had this discussion somewhere before? Its also missing its true climb rate, it does NOT perform nearly as well as the data supplied by F4UDOA.
(Shrugs, tells Grun to be careful what he wishes for, and of course, Grun has NO DATA to table, thus, just *his* feeling)
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 04-04-2001).]
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Hehe,
Rip your so right it's funny.
Yes the D-hog should peform better than the C-hog. However they are both undermodeled by real world stats, ie. stall speed with flaps and climb rate.
BTW, right now the F4U-1D has the same eny value as the D9 and La-7. Explain that as well as the F6F having an eny of 17. WTF!!
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I'm not very good at Aces High. I usually have to work pretty darn hard to get a kill, but the harder I work, the more satisfaction I get and the more fun I have. I find it rediculously easy to get 3-4 kills a flight in a C hog and since it's so easy and unchallenging I don't find it to be very fun. Also since I know it's so easy to get kills in a C hog, I tend to regard those who fly it as the type of people who don't challenge themselves and so I don't have much respect for them in general as players. To each his own by all means, but the only Hog you'll see me in has a big yellow nose.
Zoso
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i'm with Deja here .. nothing beats cal 50s ESPECIALLY in close quarter snapshots, the high ROF just makes the probability of a hit so much higher ...
If you want to kill fast with cal.50 get close in .. and there the instantaneous turn rate (not sustained) will be handy to get the shot you need.
DW6
Btw any plane bearing straight at you for THE ONE shot is Hog-fodder (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I only fly it when I've been vulched or maimed and I am pi**ed off BAD (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I don't have as much fun flying it than a Jug or a 190A8 though...
Saw
[Mass]
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Ok, I've debated whether to post here or not. After my little infamous N1k film episode; I've steered clear of these types of theads. I've decided to make a couple points though:
I fly the D hog quite a bit. It's not a bad plane, but unfortunately it's not as competitive as it was last version. Many planes can out: roll, turn, run, accelerate, climb, gun you. (La7, 190d9 (not turn), n1k (barely slower).
Just for fun, since I haven't flown a c hog in 13 tours, I took one up offline. Here's what I noticed: (No flames please, just a civilized discussion. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) I personally don't have much trouble with c hogs vs other planes like n1ks. I was only trying to do a fair comparison.
1. Almost no torque in zoom climbs. I was able to film myself hanging on the prop, then hammerheading in about 2.5 seconds. When I've tried this in the d-hog it will go into a very hard to recover flat spin.
2. D-hog DOES roll faster, and *may* accel slightly faster. Climb rates nearly equal. Overall c-hog is less likely to stall on you in rudder manuvers vs d hog IMO. You can decel to about 250 mph, hard right roll, hard left rudder, pull back on stick, and the plane will almost instantly roll over and dive away about 45 degrees from original flight path. There is virtually no loss in speed. D hog can't do this without spinning if roll is used.
3. The guns. Very powerful, compared to typhie even. Here's what I noticed that made them that way: It seems that your fire is in 2 "pairs". It's kinda hard to explain, but basically you hit with 2 cannon rounds on the exact same spot for every hit sprite you see. (Try it offline in the dirt, then compare to tiffie. You will see that 2 rounds hit at a time.) This is what gives it the "one ping of death" IMO. The typhoons firing pattern is much more spread out, and 1 round at a time impacts the target. Like the d-hog the gunsight is about the best in the game IMO. It's very easy to lead moving targets. HS cannons also don't drop as much as other cannons, making them ideally suited for snapshots.
Overall now I'd say there are better fighters, but nothing can match those guns and ammo capacity. This makes the plane easily the #1 choice for attack missions. In addition it is best for carrier duty.
My impression is that if a d hog and c hog met co-e and with pilots of equal skill (and ho snapshots were not allowed), that the d hog is a slightly better fighter. (That may just be because I'm more used to it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) If the pilot of the d-hog can keep from spinning, he should win.
It's definately an interesting plane as an A2A platform. It is generally outperformed by many planes in the set now, but none have the ability to end the fight with quick snapshots at 700. I found the guns VERY easy to hit with at around this range. Like 50 cals, but the HS actually do real damage at that range with the 5 to 6 hits you get in a snapshot. Firing on the drones I found 2 hits would take the rudder off nearly everytime. 3 to 5 hits would take off a whole wing and set the plane on fire. 1 or 2 pings to the engine area always resulted in a dead radiator or engine, and often pilot kill.
Those are my opinions after an hour or so of testing offline. What do the rest of you think?
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bloom25
-MAW-
(Formerly of the)
THUNDERBIRDS
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I seldomly used Quakebirds for ground attack. Now I am more comfortable with Corsair D. You have equal bombload, 2 rockets more, and .50's are better for deacking purposes.
I concur with DjV. .50's are easier to aim and pack quite a punch when fired under 250 yds. range.
And in D-Hog, Tutu's are not mandatory, not even optional!
Cheers,
Pepe
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Kbman... what say you and I go toe to toe with... I dunno... Tac.. and Zoso.
Them in these so called miracle machines and us in, who cares, La5s? 109s? Yaks?
Doubt it matters... We'll be dead meat appearantly... as they'll have the luxury of being able to forget ACM.
I'm not sure who actually would be stupid enough to enter a 2v2 flying a hog. 4v4... doesn't matter...
But if yer game... and you think it's really that uber... I'll be more than happy to set up something for us all to really find out.
Let me know.
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Nash I've died to your Guns often enough, both in the C-hawg & in other planes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
95% of the time I think the whole C-hawg arguement is so much hot air.
Then one pulls some seemingly impossible combination of ACM & spray & pray and my opinion gets revised for a bit.
I know from checking my own stats that I die most often to
A P51-D
B F4u-1c
I can understand the P51, ussually there are 3 or 4 of them & they are high. A lone fighter is easy meat.
The F4u-1c, well that one is easy, if you get in front of it's guns your dead.
Doesn't mean they arn't beatable, they are.
They are however my primary target all other factors being equal. They simply are more dangerous. You can't ever let one into a position where it can reverse on you & live.
You can't run away from one unless you have a VERY substantial lead even in a La7. They'll close the range enough to get hits.
Should the C-hawg be perked, nope.
It should however in my opinion be confined to Carrier opperations only.
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From a newbie perspective...
Ive never got this argument, in my current short stint here i think i flew it maybe 2 times online then read all the fuss over it and changed to the D version - Indian helped in his page on flying the Corsair in WB, which was cool Thnx Indian.
Seems you are just moaning because of its guns... but surely it has the guns it had... which doesnt make sense because now this means all you Uber Sim Heads that take every oppotunity to cry 'QUAKERS..' are asking for an unrealistic sim.... ?
All i noticed... because im not very good... is that it takes ONE HELL OF A KICKING before it goes down. One likely source of popularity then (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Next up its guns were pooh for anything more than raking flak and ammo dumps, trucks etc... Im with DeJA, the D version is way better - i dont know why, guess its that ROF thing i just know it was better to get me actual kills if something accidently overshot me... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Landings ... well ive never landed one yet properly, thanks to AKCurly though and DeJa in his taking30 movie for the walkthroughs on how its meant to be done.
I never even saw that many coming to think of it... Spit/109/P51/N1k and now the LA7 were far more popular planes i saw.
Its also got one HELL of a stall/spin characteristic... that one is crazy, worst one of the whole planeset i think.
*shrug*
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Nash,
If you want to shoot me down that's fine, I'm game, but like I said, I suck, so that won't prove much other than "it's the man not the machine" which I think was what you're tring to say. No argument there.
A better test would be to wing with kb against two players whom you consider to be of equal skill to yourself and then see what happens. A duel is not even close to how things happen in the MA, but my money will still be on the C hoggers. Prove me wrong.