Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: funked on March 02, 2000, 10:58:00 PM
-
It would be nice to have some element of surprise.
It would be nice to shoot at planes instead of 100 foot tall letters.
Please make the icons smaller, a la "Brand W".
-
<steps to window>
"A ticket on the anti-icon bandwagon, please. Front row center, if possible."
-
And put them below the planes!
And shorter range!
-
This game is a complex flight sim, requiring months of playing just to reach competent levels. Anything to 'dumb-down' AH would be short-changing the quality of the simulation, and be in conflict with the interests of the majority of the present playerbase. Knowing the kind of work that Hitech & Pyro have put out, it would be highly improbable that the depth and complexity of AH's engine would ever be compromised.
Now, given the quality of the AH engine and the game, I ask this: why have icons that are not in synch with the level of this game? Of course, whether the icons are on the same level of competency as the game is debatable to some extent, but I do feel that the existing playerbase would be accepting of icons that allowed for a more accurate simulation of air combat in WWII. As many historical references point out, a vast proportion of combat aircraft shot down in WWII never knew they were coming under attack. Thus, one could say that there is a conflict of interests when a game as complex as Aces High contains an ID element that hinders a realistic implementation of the WWII aerial combat experience.
That being said, if reduced icons were to be implemented, then any new players to Aces High would be at an even more severe disadvantage than at present. One possible measure to lessen that unfortunate condition would be to allow new subscribers to use larger icons for a set period of play time, say two month's worth of playtime hours.
In any case, I would urge HTC to seriously explore any and all ideas for reduced icons, thereby allowing Aces High to better represent a simulation of the WWII air war experience within an online environment.
------------------
leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
-
Icons,Icons,we dont need no stinking Icons man!
No icons for bad guys but we need um for freinds since you cant tell by looking at there plane whos side there on.
---------------------
(http://joemud.homestead.com/files/mud.jpg)
[This message has been edited by JoeMud (edited 03-03-2000).]
-
ICONS are good for newbies, suck for vets, I suggest all ICONS in the SEA be disabled.
Agree, LETTERS TOO BIG ON ICONS!
------------------
Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/190srip.gif)
"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-03-2000).]
-
I used to be a proponent of a totally icon free world, but after years of flying in the icon free two sided ‘historical arena’ in warbirds I have to concede that ACM suffers with no icons at all. There are many problems with the lack of resolution on a PC screen that have to be compensated for and the problems are much worse for a new player. So I think that even though some kind of icon system might be needed in a general arena, the aim must be to make it as unintrusive (eh, is that a real word?) as possible.
This is basically an old idea I posted on a WB forum long ago..
How about if we got rid of the range numbers and instead put in a line centered under the plane. The line would start as a single pixel at 10000 yards or so and then grow with one pixel for every 1000 yards closer. Have a second line just under the first that works the same but start as a single pixel at a 1000 yards and grow one pixel for every 100 yards closer.
I’d also like to see the plane type/id translucent, starting at nothing at 10000 yards and going to solid (what we have now) at 500 yards. And all icons should be centered under the plane so you can’t pull lead and shoot someone masked under the nose guided by the icon.
Fire away.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Jinx
The Flying Pigs
-
Here is a question to all those who wants no icons...
Considering that each and every country has the same set of planes, how would you identify planes from your country from planes of other countries. More, even if countries had different planes, with 800x600 resolution you simply have NO IDEA what the plane is until you are really close. In real life, pilots most of the time new if there are any friendlies flying around, but I don't see how this is going to be possible in the game.
mx22
-
If there were a way to have no icons I would be all for it. However, simply removing the icons would completely transform the game into something less fun. You would see a spec on the horizon and fly towards it for five minutes... friendly. Another spec, fly towards it... friendly. The entire game would be spent on searching for and flying towards every spec you see. Yes, it would be more realistic. But I don't want to spend four hours flying around making no contacts 90% of the time... like it was in real life. A game needs to balance reality with ACTION.
Now please don't take this post as a defence of icons, I hate them. And I really want STEALTH to be a part of the game- impossible with the icon system currently in use. It is also not really possible to disengage- dive away and disapear- with the current icon system. I would suggest making friendly icons appear fairly far away (I would think that in WWII you usually had an idea of friendly activity in the area) but make the cons incon appear very close and make the icons themselves fairly small. I really like the icon system in WB Historical Arena.
The only other thing I can think of would be to have the planes apear larger than they do and paint them in obvious schemes (i.e. half the plane red).
Of course, the coolest thing would be to have two countries, Axis and Allies and fly historical planes. If I'm Axis and I spot a P38 there is no question as to enemy or friendly.
-
Well,this topic is always coming around but it boils down to one question, really.
Is there a better way to do friend and foe?
Basically, we're using the 10 year old Air Warrior system with few changes.
I think there IS a better way and I've read many suggestions on these and other boards that seem worth trying.
THERE is the challenge. To get the powers that be in an ACM game to give it a try.
-
Excellent Jinx!
That system is one I would like to see tested. I think it gives the player the clues they need, but not too much info.
Jinx's suggestion gets my vote.
------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 03-04-2000).]
-
What Jinx wrote.
No icons simply dosnt work in our world of pixels.
danish
-
Make them smaller, move them, slice and dice them. Spindle, fold and mutilate them. Just don't LOSE them.
------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew
Trainer
-
I didn't say lose them completely. At some ranges I think we need a range cue, because what is a blob in AH would be a recognizable plane shape in RL. And of course I am all for using icons for IFF purposes. Even in WB historical scenarios we retain that.
But the fact remains that spotting the planes is far too easy.
-
Make them smaller, reduce the range at which they appear, allow us to adjust their brightness. There are three things that would help immensely.
-
how about something like this :
all friendly planes have a icon like these in the pic.
All enemy planes have a color for each type plane.
All FRIENDLY = GREEN
All 109's any type = yellow
All Spit types = Blue
All 51 types = Red
and so on and so forth.
that way you wouldn't know what type of 109 (or any other type) plane til you got close enuff to see the paint scheme. but you would know it was some sort of 109 due to the icon color. Also you would know it was enemy because it wasn't green. Another thing the color icon could be smaller at range and get bigger as you got closer. If nothing else this should be easy to change because we already have icons with color and if it didn't work we could always go back to the old way!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://members.xoom.com/awcon99/con1.gif)
-
HUMM i wonder what happened to the picture !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
-
(http://members.xoom.com/awcon99/con1.gif)
-
You get what you pay for with xoom...
-
cc that funk ! but looks like there working now !
-
Mx22 asked how IFF works with no icons..
Just to give the other side of the issue a push, no icons can be a blast! But its much more demanding. A few cool things happen, people start flying in groups and use more real world tactics. Altitude isn’t that important any more, at least not a huge altitude advantage, because the planes are usually much harder to see against the ground then against the sky, it can be easier to stalk someone undetected if you close from below. And closure speeds has to be much lower or you will ram your target. ACM and E-fighting gets much harder and less precise, you often think you are on someone tail and find yourself in a head on.
Some of my most memorable fights have been in the WB HA. Like the one where I bounced two 262s at 17k by lead turning and diving in from 28k, close from low 6 in a P47D and then in turn got jumped by a 190D.. A very long and very tense fight. SA is much harder, and so is judging relative E and speed.
It works best with a plane set with different color planes, like silver P51, P47 and P38s against dark 190 and 109s. The light colored planes have a disadvantage, but it is easy to identify friend or foe. With Hurricanes against 109s for example, it is much harder, but the WB 109E had a yellow nose, and when you saw that yellow pixel you had your id. It takes time to learn, but it can work fairly well, if everyone cooperates. It of course has to be in a two-sided arena with different planes on different sides though.
-Jinx
-
And a smaller arena. No icons (and no radar I assume) would give you no indication of where the enemy is.
Even during the real war the ground observer networks would relay sighting and interceptors had at least of where the enem was with a general indication of alt, heading not to mention strength and possible destination.
If there were no icons or radar in the arena as we have today I'd be one bored mutha trying to find the enemy to dogfight.
I've played with no icons by shutting them off over a dogfight. I still would liek to try it out for real. Two sides, aircraft only available for one country at a time.
And unless you have a decent size monitor (17" plus) with a fine dot pitch (.25 or better)....heee he he, good luck (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
-
what jinx said. an analogical feedback would be ten times better than those numerical distance indicators.
-
Well, the icons could be smaller. But...
I think the icons that we have now are pretty good. I would hate to get rid of them entirely. I would hate the brand W HA icons. I play this game to try to outfly and outshoot the other guy, not to see who has the best monitor and best vision.
One thing I really like about the current system is the fact that everyone plays with the same icon color (dis)advantage. I would like it even more, if players could adjust the brightness and hue of both friendly and enemy icons to accomodate differences in color vision and monitor characteristics. SA is too important in this game for anyone to have a built-in (dis)advantage due to icons colors. Been there. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
So whatever changes happen to icons, I think it is very important to give players the ability to adjust colors.
popeye
-
Right now the 332nd Flying Mongrels is looking at a move to Aces High. (30 + strong, CO is Daddog, XO, Ghosth)
We are talking to Pyro about a few issues that we have, and some things we'd like to see. One of those issues is icons.
We have been flying 98% the last 2 years in Brand W's HA. Personally I've flown everything from free weekends d100 icons, main arena's d60, Scen Lites d30, HA (which has tried many setups before seeming to settle on their current setup) to a special event with NO icons.
Less is better! Range alone forces you to manually id your opponant. (This is a good thing in my book) Range only gives you a better shot at a sneak, while still telling you freind from foe by the color.
Jinx, I can remember when you first posted your idea, I was for it then & I'd still love to give it a try!
I'd suggest all testing of icons be done in the special events arena (to disrupt main as little as possible until)
Friendly ID should preferably be possible out to 30k or longer. This eleminates the stalk & blowing all your E on a friend. Enemy id should either be jinx's method or a simple range counter that starts
at 5k.
Why 5k you ask?
5k = a bit under 3 miles. Given sunshine & resonable visiblity you can tell a lot about a plane at 3 miles. It's out of gun range but definatly a threat. At about 3 miles planes start turning from specks in the sky to planes with wings, color, shape.
By all means put the icons underneath if you like.
------------------
Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels
-
Sounds good Ghosth!
-
If we're going to actually try a few different means of IFF instead of this 10 year old system, I'd be really happy.
Here's a few points to ponder. These thoughts are based on a non-historical arena, where all sides fly all planes. Strict Historical could/should be different.
Ranges would have to be hashed out but that's an area that affords easy experimentaion once the overall system is set.
1. At long range, a plane <whether friend or foe, fighter or bomber> should just be an unknown dot.
2. As range closes, one would be able to distinguish a dot as a bomber earlier than a fighter. Therefore, some sort of "buff" ID should show at a range that would still be a dot for a fighter. At this range you couldn't tell friend from foe.
This means a dot could be either a long range plane of either type or a closer fighter that is not yet distinguishable. You just couldn't tell.
3. As range further decreased, a fighter ID should show. You should also now be able to tell, in some way, friend from foe, perhaps just a red dot at nose, tail and wingtips. This assumes that we would <in Real Life> be distinguishing plane type. Again, this would be a different range for a bomber than a fighter.
4. Now, after IFF range, add distance information. Range info should perhaps only be shown in 1k or .5k increments to avoid the rapidly running counters. I would not show range beyond a certain distance <a yet to be determined "threat" range> and I would remove it as the aircraft comes to "guns range." Perhaps cut out range info inside of 1k or .5k at minimum. You need IFF here, but you don't need range when you're ready to shoot. That should be part of pilot skills and judgement.
5. I would have no aircraft type ID available at ranges that allow you to distinugish that info from the graphics. (determined for the lowest resolution avail). I would allow some simple "type" info at ranges where you could see it in real life.
Different colored dots, arrows, numbers...any of these could be used to provide this type of information while minimizing and shrinking the huge icons we now have.
Just some thoughts. I'm sure everyone has some ideas and I'd love to read them. I hope we can get a meaningful discussion going and I also hope we can talk HTC into experimenting in the SEA with "alternative Icon lifestyles".
-
dont show range past 500 yards.
gameplay will be much better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Many many years of players banging their heads against this wall, They makem even BIGGER and you think they'll change their minds?
prove me wrong Pyro
----------------
Chisel,
Stumbles back to WB HA, shaking head
-
Hopefully, chisel, they will. The thing that makes AH so cool is that HiTech, Pyro, et al, actually read these boards, play the game, and care what we think. Experimenting with a new IFF system doesn't seem out of the question.
There are certainly enough hard core simmers out there to make a market. I think if you take all the Air Warriors and Warbirds pilots who are frustrated with the arcade quality of the experience and give them a VERY unforgiving and realistic WWII air combat game they will pay for it and stop playing the other games. There is definitely a market for the arcade stuff too- a much bigger market. But, hopefully, rather than try to compete against the others with a carbon copy product, Aces High will be the hard core simmer's game of choice.
P.S. I really like Jinx' idea. I don't care how you do it... I just want STEALTH implimented.
------------------
RUST
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/images/JG2Rust.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by ezrust (edited 03-07-2000).]
-
My suggestion:
Find a method that works easily within the frame work of the currect game and present it to HTC.
------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew
Trainer
-
I, too, think they should be toned down A LOT. They are simply too big and show at too great a range in my opinion. Ghosth had a good suggestion.