Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Chantler on March 11, 2001, 09:57:00 PM
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$30 a month?!? I can cable for that amount. Ever Quest was $10 a month. this way too much money for a computer game. I would be spending at lease more than 360 dollars a year.
please lower the price.
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the $30 a month is to ward away quake heads and the like. They may be lowering it sooner or later but it's not going to be lowered a lot. Sorry buddy but that's the way it's gunna be for awhile.
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XNachoX
(http://Http://members.aol.com/zipdog97/HanksP47.jpg)
NIGHTHAWKS "WE BAD"
ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!
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[This message has been edited by XNachoX (edited 03-11-2001).]
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Yeah, it WAS FREE till the Quake and Everquest crowd showed up.
Now they charge money for their hard work just to discriminate against people that play certain computer games.
HTC, being independently wealthy lottery winners, are in fact just game maker hobbyists.
Since it's just fun to them, it sometimes really pisses me off with their business practices.
Dont you know nuthin, sheesh.
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It is that expensive because when it was first introduced, WarBirds was still charging by the hour--which made $30 a month seem like a bargain. WarBirds is AH's primary competition.
Plus, since FR flightsims tend to have a somewhat limited playerbase, $30 was the best number for HTC to maximize profits.
I'll agree, though, that $30/month is somewhat of a rip-off for ANY computer game (and hourly charging is downright robbery). I understand the economics of it, but I am not willing to pay it, and will probably no longer have an account at the end of this billing cycle (account was a present from GF).
J_A_B
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Creamo, I hear yah bud!
...and check this!
I went down to the Kia dealership and checked out a nice sedan. Then I went across the street to a BMW dealership and they wanted nearly 5 times as much for a nice sedan!
What's up with THAT?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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For as much time as some people spend on AH $30 a month is pretty dang cheap! Heck I cant even take my wife to dinner for less than $40-$60 and then I eat too much and feel like crap all night long (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and dinner only lasts an hour or so and I gotta spend more money to see movie I pry don't realy wanna see (theres another $20 unless she wants Popcorn and pop then its like $40). Hell I'd pay $50-$60 a month to actually be able to fly all the planes anytime I wanted to without having to worry about perk points.
I just think they should charge you for the plane you fly (from Free to maybe $2) and keep the perk system for people who dont want to pay for the better planes?
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Chuck Perry
"Sky61"
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Bah! I am SAVING money by playing AH. Instead of buying a game at the shops for $40-$50 bucks once a month, I am only paying HTC $30. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Cost of AH = $360/year
Cost of Unreal Tournament = $45/one time fee
And guess which game has a larger comminuty, more organized events, and more variety? It isn't AH!
Cost of AW = $120/year.
Cost of AH = $360/year
Guess which game has more airplanes available, and has more organized events, and a larger community. It isn't AH! In addition, the subscription for AW will soon include several other online games as well.
Cost of WB's = $300/year
Cost of AH = $360/year
Needless to say, WB's has more players, more planes, and more events than AH has. Plus you get a WW1 arena included.
Average yearly cost for EverQuest = $175/year (the monthly fee plus the game and an update package)
Cost of AH = $360/year.
EQ has a vastly larger player base, considerably more variety, a fully functioning "world", and all for half the money AH costs.
Now, do some math. For the amount of money AH costs:
You can play WarBirds, have a WW1 arena, AND play UT as well.
OR, You can play EQ, AW, any other game included in the AW subscription, and UT (and all its mods)--and even save a bit of cash.
AH is only a bargain if AH is the only game you play. If you're like me, and play several different games, AH is not worth the cost. I fully understand the economics of HTC's situation, but that doesn't make me willing to forgo any other games.
For me AH isn't worth the money. Everyone has their own opinion, and that is mine.
J_A_B
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Then Don't play ! it's very simple!
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!!! Heater !!!
(http://members1.chello.nl/k.determan/heater1.jpg)
Shit Happens All The Time
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
[This message has been edited by Heater (edited 03-13-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Heater (edited 03-14-2001).]
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I don't think the 30 bucks has anything to do with keeping out quakeheads or 10 year olds, it has to do with what HTC figures they can get.
So far they figure right and until or unless something as good or better comes along cheaper they will charge 30 bucks.
The player base seems to not be growing much, it jumps a bit each new release but many of the "two weekers" do not stay.
Wonder why?
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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Amen Heater. _A_ _fediddleing_ _amen.
JAB, go back to ArcadeWarrior and do yourself a favour and save yourself all this aggravation of having to put up with AH. the only advantage ArcadeWarrior has over Aces High is....
wait for it!
....
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-13-2001).]
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A couple of nights of Aces High generally saves me more in beer money than the monthly subscription.
Maybe I could derail this thread into whining about central London pub prices =)
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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>
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As long as I have an AH account, I have just as much right to post my opinions here as anyone else does. Since these BB's aren't even restricted, I can continue posting even after I cancel my account in a few weeks.
There is no requirement that people who post here are only permitted to post things they LIKE. So far, the price of AH is the only thing I repeatedly discuss on this BB (the current issue with clouds/night notwithstanding). Those who may read certain other BB's know that I have some other issues with AH, but I won't bring them up here as it wouldn't have any positive effect. I won't complain here about things which won't change.
Westy asked for ONE advantage AW has over AH. That's an easy one to answer. AW has the advantage of economics. AW costs 1/3 as much for identical gameplay (fake countries, arena-based) and more organized events.
AH is a fine piece of technology, but as far as I am concerned AH the game isn't worth $30/month. That is my opinion, and it's every bit as valid as that of people who think AH IS worth it. My earlier post detailed WHY I feel $30/month is too much for AH.
As to why I play AH if I don't particularily like it? I have the account, so I might as well use it. Every now and then I like to check up on AH's progress. AH has wonderful potential, which might be realized some day. That is why I keep track of what goes on here. Eventually AH might well be worth $30/month. Right now it isn't.
I don't ask for people to agree with me, but I expect people to respect the fact that not everyone has the same opinion.
J_A_B
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AHHHHH.....SHADDUP!!!
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"....$30 was the best number for HTC to maximize profits."
How about $1000/month? Wouldn't that be more profitable? You can't blame them for picking a price point that was lower than the average monthly bill of a competing product, and yet high enough for them to pay salaries and operational costs.
"I don't ask for people to agree with me, but I expect people to respect the fact that not everyone has the same opinion."
I agree. But when you use the term "rip-off" to describe a product that the majority of people here enjoy, you can not blame them for defending it.
[This message has been edited by Mickey1992 (edited 03-14-2001).]
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I had a good laugh on that 'more planes' statement..
Theres one thing to know: flight models are more advanced in AH.
Though, one serious lack there is with AH... not everyone gets good connection to HTC over to US (some from the same country might have problems too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Even more annoying lack is that theres always those more or less boring terrains.
There should be a new terrain for each tour *methinks* (well, now they seem to have..)
...but same lack is with WB and AW as well.. and any other public server game where player is unable to choose the terrain.
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Originally posted by Mickey1992:
How about $1000/month? Wouldn't that be more profitable? You can't blame them for picking a price point that was lower than the average monthly bill of a competing product, and yet high enough for them to pay salaries and operational costs.
Your lack of a basic understanding of economics is appalling.
-- Todd/DMF
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Value is a standard that varies from individual to individual.
For instance, I see an old, worn out chair, that I think should have been burned, or thrown out along time ago...you see an antique with over 100 years of fat grannies sitting on it and a hand crafted wood carving on the back that makes it value about $1000 to an antique collector...
Warbird players used to drop $200 a month flying WB's...I can remember paying $5/hour for AW..so, in closing, value is YOUR perception, not society.
If you don't think its worth the money, don't pay it...someone else certainly will.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-14-2001).]
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying:
Your lack of a basic understanding of economics is appalling.
-- Todd/DMF
Personally I find that your decision to attack my post without any supporting argument, or any opinion/argument about the topic at hand at all, to be more unenviable. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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I like AH. I also like beer. I like to drink beer then go pee on a tree. AH is like a good beer. But if you play alot you gotta go pee. Peeing is good. If you dont pee..it hurts. SO feel free to play AH, drink beer and dont forget to pee.
Batdog
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Originally posted by Mickey1992:
Personally I find that your decision to attack my post without any supporting argument, or any opinion/argument about the topic at hand at all, to be more unenviable.
The point at hand is that you were ignoring the basic economic principles that go into deciding product pricing. HTC can't charge $1000/month and expect to get over 300 times the revenue from AH. If they could do that, why in the world wouldn't they do that?
Basic supply and demand. If HTC raises the price 333 times what it is right now, everyone would stop playing -- think of it as limiting the supply. That's $0 revenue vs. $1000 revenue from 333 people at $30/month. Most basically (not assuming things like inelastic demand curves), as price decreases, demand increases, and as price increases, demand decreases.
Assuming HTC knows their niche market well, they're going to price their product in such a way that it balances revenue with marginal costs. An Internet-based company's costs increase correspondingly with an increase in users due to bandwidth and hardware issues. As such, while HTC may gather 3000 people at $10/month instead of 1000 people at $30/month, if we assume fixed costs per customer of $5... at $30/month total costs equal $5,000, and at $10/month total costs equal $15,000. In the meantime, revenue has remained exactly the same.
1000 x 30 ($30,000)- 5000 = $25,000
3000 x 10 ($30,000)- 15000 = $15,000
Of course, compare that to the example of $1000/month you gave:
0 x 1,000 ($0) - 0 = $0.00
Hope that helps,
Todd/DMF
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Oh... Eq rots and so does AW3. Aw3 has more events, and a bigger community? Baaa AW3 is dead or dieing. It isnt even close to what it was. AH is far more challnging. EQ is a game I played for close to.. 2yrs? Its about attack rinse repeat. Its the SOS... it has more to do,about level than skill. Its full pre adolencent dweebs that eventualy will annoy you to the point of wanting to go postal on them. I have found that over all it seems like the AH community is more mature...uselly. The game requires alot of skill... real life tactics and uderstanding of concepts such as E, SA, ACM, heck even gun velocity matters...
I'll pay my 30.00 amonth and do it with a smile. To hell with aw3 (which i really liked/loved at one time) and especialy EQ and its mind numbing camping.
batdog
[This message has been edited by batdog (edited 03-14-2001).]
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Todd/DMF,
Thanks for the detailed example of why an decrease in price and the resulting increase in customers will not always lead to more profit. This will come in handy the next time someone proposes this argument. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But I think that you can not assume that there will be no customers if the price were $1000/month (33 times current price). We have all heard of how many people used to spend hundreds of dollars playing another product. Let's say that it went down to 30 customers. Using your example:
30 x $1000 ($30,000)- 1500 = $28,500
1000 x $30 ($30,000)- 5000 = $25,000
3000 x $10 ($30,000)- 15000 = $15,000
The point I was trying to make was that I have never felt that HTC was trying to "rip-off" anyone with their current pricing.
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"Its full pre adolencent dweebs that eventualy will annoy you to the point of wanting to go postal on them"
That statement can apply to AH as much as it applies to ANY online game, and the Internet in general. ALL online games are full of complainers and generally irate people--AH included.
Somehow it's easier to be a jerk online than in person--probably because the Internet doesn't allow you to see the other person's face. It dehumanizes us somewhat.
J_A_B
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JAB, aye tis true. BUT a game that charges 30.00 amonth and is a full realism flight sim will discourage many/most. The indiv that plays this I hope is the "harcore" flight SIMer and history buff... time will tell I quess.
Batdog
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JAB you and I both know how bad you talk about AH "elsewhere". To be honest, "elsewhere" is where you belong as it suits you more. AW is easier and less complex. And you've been "flying" it for a long time. It's hard to learn something new. Some are up for the challeng and other cringe. Most folks here have flonw AW at one time or another so when you hoist AW3 up as some game.sim to be impressed with you're libel to just get snickers and giggles.
You're wishes for AH to head in the AW direction is akin to wishing someone would training wheels on your two wheeler so that it feels more like the tricycle you were so used to.
As for events? Count again. AH has just started out and they've already had more events than AW has had in the same time period ("FR" events mind you). AW just had Nieman (which I would LOVE to do here) and AH just had Afrika'43. AH has several weekly events. AW has one, Warnights, which to be quite honest has an iregular schedule and the guy behind those, LW, now has an AH account too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) "RR" doesn't count here so the "Rumble Bowl 2000" or "Quad Squad Death Match night" don;t cut it. It might in AW, FA -2 and at Chuckey Cheeses but compare apples to apples. AH has more players than AW "FR" any day of the week now. And more FR scenario particpants. They had to turn people away in Afrika'43. The last couple of FR events in AW they could't get enough even with asking the RR arenas for "walk-ons" But in AH there are no "I want a fighter! I'm the best Spitjock in RRE01 and no one has to tell me what to do!" ...said jock last seen flying off by himself making a bee line for the enemy, tripping thier radar allowing the "GO" call for them.
The AW most folks knew is withering and dying on the vine. There's alot of reasons for that none of which are the fault of the players who tried to help it.
-Westy
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I don't know about anybody else, but when I was a punk $ss kid I wouldn't pay $30 a month for a game. The reason I pay now is because there are only a few of those types in AH. The AH community is far more mature than those of WB and AW. Yes there are a few cry babies around but at least they keep it on the BB and not in the MA
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Chris "Bmer1171" Toombs
332nd Flying Mongrels
"Don't fly to fight. Fight to fly."
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Westy--
I do say some negative things about AH, but I'm not trashing it for no reason.
There are some real issues with Aces High that I can't agree with, such as focusing the game on landgrabbing. There is also an issue regarding how the game reads joystick inputs that I do not necessarily like--I feel they make just flying the plane unnecessarily difficult. These factors, and a few other things, combine to damage AH's gameplay.
Am I saying AW is a better sim? Hell no! I'm the first to admit AW is horribly outdated. The game as it is belongs in a museum. AH is a vastly superior piece of technology.
But what does it DO with its better technology? Nothing! The gameplay for AH and AW is terribly similar, with only a minor difference on focus. AH is more focused on a "war"; AW is more geared towards air-to-air combat. I am not concerned with winning a war between chess pieces or Az and Bz, and there are several negative effects of such a war. I play these games to FLY, not to be Napoleon. I don't so much wish for AH to move in the AW direction, as I wish for it to focus more on A2A combat than on total war.
AH, with its great technology and incredible development speed (kudos HTC), could do so much more. We have controllable carrier fleets and many loadouts and all kinds of radar settings available, and great mission support and a full terrain editor. Instead, AH sticks you in the MA--I can do that in AW for a fraction of the price, and not need to worry about my country being driven off the map.
You also forget to mention that I'll happily praise the things AH does well. I love AH's loadout options and blackouts. I worship HTC's incredible pace of development. Just because I point out the things I despise, doesn't mean I don't think the game has its good points.
As for the remarks which basically say I'm the sort of person unwilling to try new things--it can't be farther from the truth. The very fact that I am trying AH from time to time should prove otherwise. If that isn't enough, there's the fact that I play all kinda of games, ranging from FPS like CounterStrike and UT to flightsims like AH and AW to RPG's. I even play Strat games like AOE or RT2, and racing games of all sorts. I LOVE a new gaming experience.
I am not some kind of idiot who is incapable of playing a "hard" game. The fact that AH is hard doesn't bug me--indeed, even as a total newbie I can shoot down more planes than I lose. What bugs me is when a game makes something difficult, if that task is easy in reality. What bugs me more is when gameplay moves BACKWARDS from a 14-year-old obsolete game.
I don't normally bring up my own personal issues with AH on these boards, as this isn't the place for it. I will not go into detail now; this post is already too long and most people aren't interested anyway. But I will defend myself when someone--deliberately or not--attempts to misrepresent me.
I have considerable respect for you Westy. That fact that we have a disagreement regarding AH doesn't change that. I really believe you don't fully understand how I feel--which is to be expected, as I have never fully explained myself anywhere in public. Up till now I've never had a reason to. I'll happily do so in Email if you like--just give me your Email address. My own is james71@uakron.edu
My apology to anyone who is now irritated at how badly off-topic this post is.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Mickey1992:
But I think that you can not assume that there will be no customers if the price were $1000/month (33 times current price
I think it's pretty safe to assume that nobody would play if the price happened to be $1000/month. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) That's so outrageous that I used it as an insane outlier... to compare profitability there with the other examples is to insinuate that it would be better to charge one person $100,000/month and make a $95,995 profit. Supply/Demand curves are just that, curves and not straight lines, indicating that demand trails off at an increasing rate as price increases.
Thanks for the 33 vs. 330 thing. Doy. hehe.
My original comment was actually responding to your assertion that HTC priced Aces High high enough to pay salaries but low enough to beat out competition. You suggested that they could become more profitable by charging $1000/month, but chose to do the former instead.
My point was that pricing isn't so simple... raising the price of a product doesn't increase profits. Assuming elastic demand curves, raising the price too much could diminish demand so substantially that they'd be out of business tomorrow. The reason AH is $30/month is because it's likely the profit equilibrium point -- the point where profits are maximized and costs are minimized.
-- Todd/DMF
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I fly here for the FM only. Yes if you want an easy sim to fly go to AW. Its not for everyone. What wrong with working for a kill, makes you feel very satisfied.
AW is still useing the FM from 1986 as far as im concerned. And it was great in 1986 to 1995. But Flight models in Sim have come a long way since then.
As for the field capturing in AH, why the hell ya think we got planes?? To stop em from takin fields (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dog out.........
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Biteing lip.
Too funny!
EYE
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" I really believe you don't fully understand how I feel"
I didn't. that's for as I can see now. I only went by how I interpreted by what I saw you would say here and in BigWeek.
I would definately said you cleared that all up <S> and I'll reholster my flame pistol (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As for EYE. Man, you got problems. No lie.
-Westy
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Did you sneek a peak when you found out?
EYE
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On the one hand Lower fee would bring more people and more arenas, I think thatd be nice. I will probably move on soon due to fee, 30 is really more than I can afford. Right now its cable TV or AH, going with AH but will soon be bored I think into a change. But on the other hand the fee does make the kiddie market go elsewhere and that alone makes me consider staying! But first sim with better filter system and I would have to move on. But on the other hand the updating here is very constant it seems which is a draw, as the game gets better n better the fee becomes more justified. Wellthats enough hands
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Right but Yello1, the number of people moving over because of a lower cost does not equal out in terms of profit or even breaking even. You have to upgrade equipment and buy more bandwidth for more users, but they are at a lower price.
This has been beaten to death... the horse has long since decayed... I think it's time to put away the sticks and baseball bats.
-SW
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Hmmm let me see if I understand this "if more come it will cost more in equipment argument"???? Based on EQ they must be losing millions??? because at 10 bucks a month for 5.00 cost they must be losing money??? I for one don't believe that philosophy at all I feel the cost must be much lower than 5.00 per player, the other flaw is that it makes the assumption that ALL subscribers will be on at once (which we know is not true since I have NEVER seen AH maxed out but KNOW they have more than 260 members) Price will be what the market will bare period, it has always been that way and it always will be. I remember in DOS AW days the same arguments being made as to why they had to charge 6.00 an hour and how they would NEVER change that, then over again on WB's regarding their hourly structure, yes AW is or has died but NOT due to price but due rather to an out moded engine which cannot keep up with new developments. I can see the day when AH will be cheaper due to competition, but that day has yet to arrive, so either pay the freight or don't play that is about all the choice you have at present
[This message has been edited by BigJim (edited 03-29-2001).]
[This message has been edited by BigJim (edited 03-29-2001).]
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Atm i think 30$ aint to much, for two reasons:
1.AH support is really good, if u compare it to other sims, bug fixes and new version are published every 3-4 weeks.
2. Atm AH seems to have a real good Flight Model.
But soon(er or later) WW2 online will come out, prices so far are teh pirce for the retail and 10$ per month, with a realistic FM, with the option to play much more than only pilot and vehicle driver.
And i guess than the AH price will for many players no longer be good. The ultra realistic hardcore sim pilots, will try out WW2on, on will probably stay there, cause u will have to work for a kill there.
Also with its command structure and european map, original countries etc. WW2on will give WW2 fanatics much more opportunites to play.
Sooner or later AH price will drop, or HTC will have to give the community much more for the 30$.
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Lets see ya got at least 6 people who all want to get paid working there, ya got the overhead of a building, ya got server expenses ta pay for, ya want to enjoy their programing talent but not pay much for it, ya want a server that dont dump ya every 20 min., ya want it updated regularly, ya want..... ya want..... etc. Well lets see just about anything with the label fun is gonna cost ya, $30 bucks for a month worth of entertainment in todays world really is not such a bad deal!
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$1 a day.
Bottom line, is it worth it to you to have this quality of entertainment available to you 24/7 for $1 a day.
If not... easy decision.
If it is you probably already realize what a deal you are already getting.
As far as WW2OL, I'll sure try it out.
I wonder though if it will be as good as the incredible multiplayer aspect of that incredible, groundbreaking totally realistic new sim B-17II.
Better not count those chickens just yet. The eggs are a ways from hatching. I take two teaspoons of healthy skepticism before I read any gaming press releases. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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This isn't bad, costs more to drive 100 miles in a new car.
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I think Heater hit the nail on the head. I have been fly WB for the last 3or4 years I"ve paid the as high as $250-$300 just for a mouth playing with the guys but I had fun. My hats off to the AH guys for a dam nice game . Yes it has some bugs but you do not have to play if you are unhappy with the game. MY 2 CENTS
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Originally posted by XNachoX:
the $30 a month is to ward away quake heads and the like.
I've never ever liked this statement. I've heard it frequently. My guess is that HTC operates as a business because it is one. There's overhead, buildings, utilities, salaries, etc. They have a bottom line that must be met. My guess is that HTC charges this price because it is necessary to keep the business running. Sure, $360 a year is a bit steep for the average adolescent first person shooter, but this price is also a bit steep for some level-headed non-quakedweeb parents with real life bills to consider. I'm not advocating a change in HTC's billing. It's an expensive hobby, but to think that the subscription fees are also used as a form of member screening seems rather elitist.
Was the AW community filled with quake-dweebs because of their lower cost?
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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org)
The SBM's are hiring! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum11/HTML/000263.html)
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Hehe someone just finished a class in microeconomics muahaha or teaches it one.
LaVa