Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: slipknot on June 17, 2008, 09:52:37 AM
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There's a professor in my graduate program that is 58 years old, single, disowned by his son, and a staunch marxist--even though the nature of the graduate program is decidedly market-based (in large part, anyway).
While the general concepts of Marxism tend to appeal to those that prefer to think in simple terms (children, especially), the various shortcomings reduce it to absurdity when applied to any real world scenarios.
The professor is a fool, of course, and was a horrible professor for other reasons as well. However, just out of curiosity, when do you think a person of average or above-average intelligence, and with more or less main-stream upbringing should start to permanently discard the these concepts as purely theoretical?
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Having the ability to see through the absurdities of Marxism/Communism requires a knowledge of world history, to begin with, and a thorough knowledge of 2oth Century history in particular. Most kids don't get that unless they go to college.
If they are of average intelligence, and open to rational thought, they should be able to see through it by the age of 21.
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Well , This is a bit of a stretch, but when you think about it, children are taught marxist philosophy from the time they enter kindergarten, fair play equal time, shareing etc. (i know it's a stretch) but underneath it's the basis for marxist ideals in it's purest form. reality tends to set in with age and experience. So I would say these ideals as a life plan tend to go out the window as one developes a more individual persona.
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Well , This is a bit of a stretch, but when you think about it, children are taught marxist philosophy from the time they enter kindergarten, fair play equal time, shareing etc. (i know it's a stretch) but underneath it's the basis for marxist ideals in it's purest form. reality tends to set in with age and experience. So I would say these ideals as a life plan tend to go out the window as one developes a more individual persona.
Agreed completely... However, some do fall through the cracks. I know a 31 year old yoga instructor, living in idaho, who's and staunch critic of capitalism. In my experience, the only people to remain critical are those who fail to succeed within the framework of the market economy. I believe that my prof is the same.
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Marxism, like Christianity, would see a classless society wherein all members are valued and wealth is shared as needed. The reality is that one attempts to achieve equality through force while the other through a renewal of heart and mind. I bet you can guess which I think is which.
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Agreed completely... However, some do fall through the cracks. I know a 31 year old yoga instructor, living in idaho, who's and staunch critic of capitalism. In my experience, the only people to remain critical are those who fail to succeed within the framework of the market economy. I believe that my prof is the same.
Personaly I think that as some people are leaders and some are followers, most are followers, I think that this is a direct result of marketing by corporate types and upbringing.
What I mean to say is that even tho the corporate world is obviously capitalistic, their marketing plans for the most part tend to lend themselves to the pack mentality, "keeping up with the Jone's" ( again a big stretch) What the group has i want, what the group wants I must have. The very same idea can be used in support of, or as a weapon aganst "Individualism" depending on your goal at the time. Basically our society reveres the individual but markets to the group. Independent thinking by consumers is bad for corporate statagy.
Upbringing, I always tried to impress apon my daughter the need to ask questions and like myself she has no need to follow the pack.
I guess after all this rambling my point is both marxist and capitalist philosphy have their own brand of dogma, however all of it is based apon the individual and or group mentality. It is far simpler to say everyone gets a fair share, however impractical that may be in reality. At the same time that the marxist makes promises that are not possible to obtain, capitalism does the exact same thing as it requires "Haves" and "Havenots", no problem if you fall into the "Have" catagory, just a matter of perspective.
The irony is tho both these systems depend on the same thing, group exceptence, it comes down to individualism, which if taken to the extreme is also doomed to failure.
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Marxism, like Christianity, would see a classless society wherein all members are valued and wealth is shared as needed. The reality is that one attempts to achieve equality through force while the other through a renewal of heart and mind. I bet you can guess which I think is which.
Those lines become very blurry when any group, religuos in nature or not has the power and oppertunity to enforce their brand of fairness.
EDIT: The soviets came to power as a "renewal" of the hearts minds and spirit of an oppressed people. Be very careful to question anyone who would bring "order" to society no matter how kind and innocent they appear.
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Those lines become very blurry when any group, religuos in nature or not has the power and oppertunity to enforce their brand of fairness.
There is no line when force is a factor. Religous freedom is part of the foundation of America. Should that ever change I will join those fighting to restore it.
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There is no line when force is a factor. Religous freedom is part of the foundation of America. Should that ever change I will join those fighting to restore it.
Exactly my point comrad :aok
EDIT: religous freedom also requires the freedom to be free of religion.
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It was clear to me it was a load of crap the first time the government took money out of my paycheck. At 17.
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Having the ability to see through the absurdities of Marxism/Communism requires a knowledge of world history, to begin with, and a thorough knowledge of 2oth Century history in particular. Most kids don't get that unless they go to college.
If they are of average intelligence, and open to rational thought, they should be able to see through it by the age of 21.
Perfect example of the 20th century of how bad Communism was is the Soviet Union, Chernobyl and how the government didnt care at all for it's people. A modern example is Iran, North Korea, nearly all of the African Countries...
Obama studied Marxism I think I colledge.... :noid
*sarcastically*he's a really good guy*end*
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Obama studied Marxism I think I colledge.... :noid
Nothing at all wrong with studying Marxism. Especially if you study both the theory and it's real world application. Now if you studied it and still think it's a good idea, I would question your judgment.
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Perfect example of the 20th century of how bad Communism was is the Soviet Union, Chernobyl and how the government didnt care at all for it's people. A modern example is Iran, North Korea, nearly all of the African Countries...
Obama studied Marxism I think I colledge.... :noid
*sarcastically*he's a really good guy*end*
The USSR is a perfect example of why this concept is utterly unworkable. Humans being humans, even this giant attempt to realize the dream of a workers' utopia ended with the ultimate separation of classes. There were the few, a the top of the pyramid, and the countless millions at the base, and nothing in between. Russia continues to struggle with this specter as their poor get even more poor, and their rich grow more and more powerful--Putin being a great example of the latter.
The concept is very nice indeed. Problem is, as the case is with most things, that people in the position of power will find ways to use it to their ends. At least with Capitalism, using what is available to one's own end is expected and encouraged, and there are no sanctimonious proclaimations of righteousness and selflessness.
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Nothing at all wrong with studying Marxism. Especially if you study both the theory and it's real world application. Now if you studied it and still think it's a good idea, I would question your judgment.
Agree completely, understanding and the ability to study and ask questions on any subject is a fundimental human right, anyone who questions this or uses it as a weapon aganst anyone is useing the very tatics they profess to be bad.
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Nothing at all wrong with studying Marxism. Especially if you study both the theory and it's real world application. Now if you studied it and still think it's a good idea, I would question your judgment.
I dont know what but the way he studied it apparently scared people. Like how to establish it in a society or something. :noid :huh
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I dont know what but the way he studied it apparently scared people. Like how to establish it in a society or something. :noid :huh
Then find out, propaganda relys on those that hear it to repeat it without checking its truthfulness, thats why I say never stop asking questions until you understand, then ask more questions, never give those who would try to lead or perseude you a rest, BS falls apart under scrutiny.
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Ehh... it's just hear-say. COULD actually be true. Obama's wife sure is anti-american, and Obama seem's it too.
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Ehh... it's just hear-say. COULD actually be true. Obama's wife sure is anti-american, and Obama seem's it too.
Rather then repeating the unsubstantiated statements of others, why don't you investigate the source of these accusations and find concrete evidence either for or aganst the statement. Propaganda designed to discredit or embaress must be sorted out, don't take second hand info to heart they are counting on you following the pack, and any attempt by you to think for yourself and not rely on them for the thinking defeats them.
Don't be affraid to ask questions, don't be afraid to make those you respect account for their statements, if they are unable or unwilling to respond with proveable facts, they are not worthy to lead. and therefor not worthy of your respect as an individual, they are frauds.
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So somehow, I'm a fraud for saying what I heard? Which I said enough "I think"
Theres plenty of proof with this stuff, I'm just not gonna waste my time going around looking for it. Still not sure with the Marxism, but I'm pretty sure his wife hates America.
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I don't think he called you a fraud--just those who spout rhetoric without even a hint of desire, or ability, to back it up.
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So somehow, I'm a fraud for saying what I heard? Which I said enough "I think"
Theres plenty of proof with this stuff, I'm just not gonna waste my time going around looking for it. Still not sure with the Marxism, but I'm pretty sure his wife hates America.
I wasn't calling you a fraud, im sorry if you took it that way, I'm only saying if there were actual proof of what these people are saying ,it flys in the face of common sence that in todays news media saturation that we would not have all seen it a thosand and ten times by now. The fact is, it there is no proof only hearsay, hearsay repeated for a purpose is propaganda. i refuse to let others think for me, thats not to say I am always correct, but i try to find out for sure, all i'm suggesting is that more people need to ask more questions.
Again let me say i am sorry if you took my comments as an attack, thats not what I'm about. :salute
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The reality is that one attempts to achieve equality through force while the other through a renewal of heart and mind.
If you could ask a Spanish peasant in 1936 how much the Catholic church was trying to achieve equality you might have received an interesting response.
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I wasn't calling you a fraud, im sorry if you took it that way, I'm only saying if there were actual proof of what these people are saying ,it flys in the face of common sence that in todays news media saturation that we would not have all seen it a thosand and ten times by now. The fact is, it there is no proof only hearsay, hearsay repeated for a purpose is propaganda. i refuse to let others think for me, thats not to say I am always correct, but i try to find out for sure, all i'm suggesting is that more people need to ask more questions.
Again let me say i am sorry if you took my comments as an attack, thats not what I'm about. :salute
Ohh okay.. I've been reciving some wierd rude comments lately :noid :noid (and some have turned into full blown arguments)
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I don't think he called you a fraud--just those who spout rhetoric without even a hint of desire, or ability, to back it up.
* pushes slipknot out of the way *
Bah.
You're not a fraud, kid, you're just an idiot.
I heard Obama eats babies. I HEARD it! It must be true. Let me scream it from the virtual mounting tops!
O - OBAMA EATS BABIES!!
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* pushes slipknot out of the way *
Bah.
You're not a fraud, kid, you're just an idiot.
I heard Obama eats babies. I HEARD it! It must be true. Let me scream it from the virtual mounting tops!
O - OBAMA EATS BABIES!!
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I dont recall asking for your opinion
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Don't worry, I believe in Marxism myself. I give my comments to everyone free of charge.
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HAH!! and I'm stupid... :rolleyes: :aok :lol
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If you could ask a Spanish peasant in 1936 how much the Catholic church was trying to achieve equality you might have received an interesting response.
Put people in power over others and they will abuse that power. Force people to be charitable and they won't. You'll notice though that I didn't say this church or that, I said Christianity.