Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MANDOBLE on March 12, 2001, 09:34:00 AM
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A lot of people is complaining about buffs weapons lethality, range, etc. But there is another big problem related to the buffs, you cant aproach unnoticed because they have external views, they can see you even with your plane aproaching from dead view zones.
Three ideas to solve the problem:
1 - Eliminate external views for the buffs.
2 - Deactivate icons in external views.
3 - In external views, show only those planes that the buff crew can really see from inside.
Buff reacting to your attack from 500 yards is a really different thing than buff reacting to your attack from 1600 yards.
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Then what... one pair of eyes should do the job of ten?
No, im not up for it, I don't have that much problem with them.
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im with fishu,, the reason buffs have ext views is to "simulate" 10 set of nervous eyes scanning every inch of the sky.
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Just make the buff guns SHAKE like the fighter's guns and remove the perfect convergence at any range that they have now.
An 8 gun P-47 in someone's 6 at d400 will very rarely kill a fighter with the first ping if the enemy plane is manouvering. Buff guns put ALL the bullets in the exact same spot at any range, allowing their hits to be the equivalent of a 30mm hitting you.
Fighters now are even more handicapped against buff due to the gun shake. Let the buff guns retain their extra range but for gawds sake, remove their super convergence and add a gun shake for the buff turrets. Things would be MUCH more balanced then.
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Also, make the crew of the gunners be killable. The BS of filling the fuselage of a bomber with a stream of hits in high speed side pass and having all guns still fire you is ridiculous. in RL all the waist gunners and the top turret gunner would have been turned into confetti.
From a buff's 6 (when you sneak on them and they dont notice you) you can spray 4 .50's + 1 20mm cannons into the tail itself for a good 2 seconds and then have the tail gun open fire on you. Last time I checked the tail turret had no space-age armored glass capable of stopping 20mm cannon shells.
If I can get a pilot kill in a fighter, I would like to be able to kill the gunners.
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Removing the ability to control the airplane while in a gun turret would help matters.
MiG
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Originally posted by MiG Eater:
Removing the ability to control the airplane while in a gun turret would help matters.
MiG
..and crash into mountain while trying to keep your foe busy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I've found control ability good sometimes, just to avoid hitting mountain side or to get some bullets below the bomber.
I don't think that B-26 pilot would fly straight line knowing that theres fighter coming from below to toast you up if you dont turn. (I don't either believe that gunners would just wait plane to quit turning before firing)
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Originally posted by MiG Eater:
Removing the ability to control the airplane while in a gun turret would help matters.
MiG
Help as in make it easier to kill or help as in more realistic?
<TAILGUNNER> Bandit dead 6, closing fast.
<PILOT> Roger, locking controls now.
I don't think so somehow =)
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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>
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S!
The effectivity of the buff guns is one part of this matter,but also should be noted the lack of the movement of planes and slipstream affecting guns when turning them.Now the buffs fly straight without any variation(weaving etc.) in alt/direction(as the real plane would do,even in level flight).The guns turn instant to the direction U point them.Take the waist gun.U fly 200mph and the gun points out of the fuselage at angle of 90' related to the slipstream.It would be easy to turn it backwards,but not forwards due to the stream.Not modeled.Also the guns seem to fire at unbelieveable angles.I have seen a Lancaster firing from all 3 turrets BACKWARDS or at the area of 8/4.The front turret shouldn't be able to do this?!The many things people have mentioned about buffs have made me to ignore them.Why risk a plane when U don't fight on equal terms...
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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
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I say fly a chog its what HTC designs the game around ie lowest common BS denomintor. wanna vulch? -chog wanna dogfite/furball? -chog wanna kill buffs from 900 yds? -chog wanna kill half a dozen tanks in one sortie? -chog wanna deack a whole base and have enugh ammo for 10 vulch kills? -well chog of course chog chog chog no wonder its HTC favorite
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Originally posted by DB603:
S!
The effectivity of the buff guns is one part of this matter,but also should be noted the lack of the movement of planes and slipstream affecting guns when turning them.Now the buffs fly straight without any variation(weaving etc.) in alt/direction(as the real plane would do,even in level flight).The guns turn instant to the direction U point them.Take the waist gun.U fly 200mph and the gun points out of the fuselage at angle of 90' related to the slipstream.It would be easy to turn it backwards,but not forwards due to the stream.Not modeled.Also the guns seem to fire at unbelieveable angles.I have seen a Lancaster firing from all 3 turrets BACKWARDS or at the area of 8/4.The front turret shouldn't be able to do this?!The many things people have mentioned about buffs have made me to ignore them.Why risk a plane when U don't fight on equal terms...
B-17's ball turret bug was reported long time ago, but they still haven't bothered to fix it.
Ball turret can shoot through the fuselage and in case you would attack in 20 degree angle from behind, you would be shot by ball/tail/top turrets, instead of just tail and top turrets.
this same goes for all angles, because ball turret can point up so well.
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/fishu/b17bt.jpg)
Ball turret is tilted fully upwards, shooting through tail fuselage.
I would say this is very big advantage.
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 03-12-2001).]
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
I say fly a chog its what HTC designs the game around ie lowest common BS denomintor. wanna vulch? -chog wanna dogfite/furball? -chog wanna kill buffs from 900 yds? -chog wanna kill half a dozen tanks in one sortie? -chog wanna deack a whole base and have enugh ammo for 10 vulch kills? -well chog of course chog chog chog no wonder its HTC favorite
Gotta love this clown hijacking a thread on buffs to get his whine in.
Also, make the crew of the gunners be killable
I have had my guns knocked out several times while still having ammo in them. I assumed this "simulated" a deaad gunner.
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I think its a very poor simulation of it. B17's didnt have more than a breath of armor on their fuselage, even MG rounds went in from one side and out the other. GLASS on the tail turret sure as hell aint gonna make a 20mm shell bounce off.
If come from a side and fill a b17 with 200 rnds from behind the cockpit to the tail, all hits in the fuselage, those gunners in there should be all rights be quite, quite dead. In AH they dont die. Hell, even straight 6 shots into a b17's tail dont kill gunner unless you pump half your ammo into it. First burst that hits the tail should turn the tail gunner into vulture chow.
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Wrong...
There was armour plating in the B-17. It wasn't made of it, but it was there to protect the pilots, and some to protect the tail from a dead six approach.
Powered turrets negate the effect of the slip stream on guns pointed abeam.
Between all ten positions on the B-17, not only could every inch of sky be seen, but a pair of .50's could be pointed there as well.
Icons are there to make-up for the fact that the computer screen does not represent real life well enough to see, and make out, distant AC. The eyes of a gunner are the same eyes that a fighter pilot has.
Anything that a P-47 hits from D400 with 8 guns is no longer flying.
MG's are useless against a buff. In and out, no damage in between. Use a 20mm, very effective. 30mm: ouch!
Well, the ball turret does have a problem, but the Lancaster nose turret can traverse past 90 degrees. Besides it's .30 caliber MG's!
If you can get 200 rounds into the tail position you are a better man than I.
There are many stories of crewmen doing super human things after being wounded. (i.e. remaining at thier position after a limb had been clipped off by shrapnel.)
Gun positions do get damaged in AH.
Probably the biggest "realism" problem with buffs in AH is on the part of the fighter pilots. Every person that complains about buffs, I eventually see come cranking in from dead six, and it's a shootout. Piper right on the fighter, as he is flinging cannon rounds at you.
Stuff is flying of your plane. Engines are smoking. All you can do is hold the trigger down, FILLING the attacker with .50 caliber rounds hoping that the next one will be THE round that gets a wing or the pilot. After one of these attacks, the fighter pilot is dead, swearing on channel 1. The B-17 is critically damaged, the next fighter to come along WILL get the kill.
The reality: The Browning M2 .50 caliber round will peirce an engine block. It will go through wing struts. It will go through the armored glass in the canopy. The only thing sticking up above that engine is the pilots *head*. Some concessions are made for buff drivers, but few attacking pilots consider that a real pilot would not attack from such a futile disadvantage.
Wow... my longest post yet! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<S>IC
[This message has been edited by iculus (edited 03-13-2001).]
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80 rnds of 20mm with the 4 .50's that came with it (about 120 rnds? 200? I only count my cannon rounds) on the tail turret and the tail still fires at me. Oh yeah, thats gotta be one damn superhuman gunner firing the .50's with his teeth while his head hangs from an inch from his ass. Not to mention the sweet way the ball turret and top turret fire at me through the tail of the plane.
One thing ive found out is that there is NO way you can defeat a buff if the gunner is watching you. All the so called "buff attack" tactics are completely dependent on making the gunner switch guns while you hit the buff. Guess what, thats the lamest GAME THE GAME crap ive seen. Give the buffs an otto that has the same aim/fire logic as the field acks, let them keep their range boost, remove the BS superconvergencefromhell (as each gun would have its own firing AI) and let the human gunner fire only ONE gun, not have the AI fire at the exact same spot as he is (hell, you need a modern computer to do that, im sure ww2 gunners wouldve LOVED to have that!). Buffs would then be well protected (AI gunners having unlimited ammo, human gunner would spend ammo when he fires a gun), fighters would not be swatted out of the sky by turbolaser crapolia and best of all, it simulates a buff MUCH better than the crap we have now.
That or make the buffs be FULLY manned by human gunners.
Until then, buffs can as well fly all over, I aint engaging someone who has a very unfair advantage over me.
/rant off
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Not so Tac. They wore Flak Jackets, and many gunners could still fight while wounded. There is a story of one B17 that made it back which looked like swiss cheese. Everyone survived... except one guy who wasn't wearing his flak jacket. All were wounded, but all lived.
Originally posted by Tac:
Also, make the crew of the gunners be killable. The BS of filling the fuselage of a bomber with a stream of hits in high speed side pass and having all guns still fire you is ridiculous. in RL all the waist gunners and the top turret gunner would have been turned into confetti.
From a buff's 6 (when you sneak on them and they dont notice you) you can spray 4 .50's + 1 20mm cannons into the tail itself for a good 2 seconds and then have the tail gun open fire on you. Last time I checked the tail turret had no space-age armored glass capable of stopping 20mm cannon shells.
If I can get a pilot kill in a fighter, I would like to be able to kill the gunners.
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Spivey, buffmeister of the Flying Tigers
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I have consistently downed B17's in one pass using an off angle approach from underneath at about 10 or 2ok. Typically I don't even get pinged.
The trick to killing buffs is to be there when they arrive. The trick to surviving in a buff is to get altitude. KB and I downed 10 B17's coming in lo at one base. I think we both died once.
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Spivey, buffmeister of the Flying Tigers
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Yes, I read a book about the 303rd, and they talk often about how the gunners would yell to the pilot to "kick it over" meaning hard rudder when a 190 or 109 was about to pork them.
Originally posted by Fishu:
..and crash into mountain while trying to keep your foe busy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I've found control ability good sometimes, just to avoid hitting mountain side or to get some bullets below the bomber.
I don't think that B-26 pilot would fly straight line knowing that theres fighter coming from below to toast you up if you dont turn. (I don't either believe that gunners would just wait plane to quit turning before firing)
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Spivey, buffmeister of the Flying Tigers
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TAC, my son, my son! Learn how to better kill bombers! I had it out with wolf37, he in Spit and I in B17. No one else around. In the end he got my fuel, and he ran lo on fuel and we parted ways, neither dying. Why? Because he did a VERY VERY GOOD JOB at attacking me at the prime angles and not hanging out in range for very long. IT CAN BE DONE!
Originally posted by Tac:
80 rnds of 20mm with the 4 .50's that came with it (about 120 rnds? 200? I only count my cannon rounds) on the tail turret and the tail still fires at me. Oh yeah, thats gotta be one damn superhuman gunner firing the .50's with his teeth while his head hangs from an inch from his ass. Not to mention the sweet way the ball turret and top turret fire at me through the tail of the plane.
One thing ive found out is that there is NO way you can defeat a buff if the gunner is watching you. All the so called "buff attack" tactics are completely dependent on making the gunner switch guns while you hit the buff. Guess what, thats the lamest GAME THE GAME crap ive seen. Give the buffs an otto that has the same aim/fire logic as the field acks, let them keep their range boost, remove the BS superconvergencefromhell (as each gun would have its own firing AI) and let the human gunner fire only ONE gun, not have the AI fire at the exact same spot as he is (hell, you need a modern computer to do that, im sure ww2 gunners wouldve LOVED to have that!). Buffs would then be well protected (AI gunners having unlimited ammo, human gunner would spend ammo when he fires a gun), fighters would not be swatted out of the sky by turbolaser crapolia and best of all, it simulates a buff MUCH better than the crap we have now.
That or make the buffs be FULLY manned by human gunners.
Until then, buffs can as well fly all over, I aint engaging someone who has a very unfair advantage over me.
/rant off
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Spivey, buffmeister of the Flying Tigers
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Just looked at the kill stats
B-17 1992 Kills 2136 Killed
B-26 1531 Kills 2010 Killed
Lanc 958 Kills 1673 Killed
4482 5809
I guess if these odds aren't good enough for you,then they could have 20% of buff missions sit on the runway or not gain more altitude than 5k or disable the tail gun.There are guys here that kill me every time and I can tell by their approaches just how tough a fight I will be in.Others come in and I know they will not be in the air long.If you are not killing buffs,the problem is yours and not the game design.
There are not enough people flying buffs or want to and its tough to get a group together,so a lot of buffs fly alone.Changing any thing to make buffs weaker will only lead to less people flying buffs.
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Ummm.... a flakjacket is just that. A jacket meant to stop shell fragments.
There is not a flakjacket/bulletproof vest on earth that would stop a single round from ANY of the aircraft mounted weapons in Aces High.
And please. There is comparitively very , very little, armor to total space on any plane. Let alone a bomber. And even then, most of this "armor" will not stop anything from .50 cal (or 12.7mm & 13mm) on up.
The reason that bombers are so deadly to fighters, is the way that the hit detection is accomplished. Corner Hitech or Pyro sometime and talk to them about it. Its an interesting discussion.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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The pic of the ball gunner firing through the fuselage is really interesting. God only knows what else is hidden in convergence/lethality settings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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GAT
4° Stormo Caccia - Knights (http://www.4stormo.it)
"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick it even if things are going against them, whereas the Jerries will run." (G.Beurling)
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Originally posted by ET:
Just looked at the kill stats
B-17 1992 Kills 2136 Killed
B-26 1531 Kills 2010 Killed
Lanc 958 Kills 1673 Killed
4482 5809
I guess if these odds aren't good enough for you,then they could have 20% of buff missions sit on the runway or not gain more altitude than 5k or disable the tail gun.There are guys here that kill me every time and I can tell by their approaches just how tough a fight I will be in.Others come in and I know they will not be in the air long.If you are not killing buffs,the problem is yours and not the game design.
There are not enough people flying buffs or want to and its tough to get a group together,so a lot of buffs fly alone.Changing any thing to make buffs weaker will only lead to less people flying buffs.
ET Nailed IT!!!
Look at the Stats before you complain, sheesh.
And Tac....not everyone has a problem killing buffs as the stats above proove. YOU might have a problem with them, but EVERYONE does NOT.
Cobra
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I am not saying to make buffs weaker. Im saying make its gunnery be at least a bit realistic. Right now, having a buff point all possible guns at you and hit you in the exact same spot is ridiculous and very unfair.
Stats can say anything you want to say. Try a better argument.
When I fly buff, most of the times I get shot down are when 2 or 3 fighters are on me, if im watching a con coming at me, he is DEAD. At d1.3 start firing those guns (with no tracers), at d1.0 or d900 I usually get one burst on them and BEWM they go.Those 8 50cals hitting on the exact same spot turn the b17 into a P-47 that can face you in any direction and hit you with perfect convergence at any range. If a lone fighter gets me, its very usually a CHOG or N1k spraying at long range (sweet that the fighter's gun shake reduces acurracy for those beasts!).
"Changing any thing to make buffs weaker will only lead to less people flying buffs."
Oh really? You as a buff driver, what would you prefer to have? each turret able to track and fire at an approaching con or keeping your "point all guns at this spot" guns which you have to man?. Let me guess... with one you would have better overall protection, but with the other you can kill fighters real quick. I wonder which gamethegame option you will choose. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
"Not so Tac. They wore Flak Jackets, and many gunners could still fight while wounded. There is a story of one B17 that made it back which looked like swiss cheese. Everyone survived... except one guy who wasn't wearing his flak jacket. All were wounded, but all lived"
No modern body armor can stop a 20mm cannon shell or 50 cal round hitting it from 600 yds. Flak jackets are like the infantry helmets, they are made to stop shrapnel, not bullets.
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I agree.. lets make buffs and their guns more realistic and historically correct. lets go with tac's idea to have guns on buffs like field ack (which all fires at...that's right...one target in convergence.) but to keep with the whole realism theme, lets also throw up another 50 or so "otto" bombers all working on the same "field ack system" flying in a nice formation. Bah and you thought flying through cv ack was bad.
/tard mode off
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Originally posted by Tac:
Stats can say anything you want to say. Try a better argument.
Like anecdotes???
Cobra
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The stats are the only argument I have.I didn't fudge them,I simply copied them from the scoreboard.What don't you believe about them ? I used the stats to say that if you make things harder for buff drivers,that fewer people will fly them.In the real war in Europe,over half the pilots were buff drivers,in AH maybe 10%,so buffs run into more fighters here.As a buff driver my preference is to leave everything the way it is now.Also,when I have 2-3 cons chasing me as you said you did I know I'm going down.Maybe if I'm really lucky I'll take 1-2 with me.As far as strength of guns,it amazes me when 1 fighter on 1 pass can take out my tail gun,top turret,nose gun and have my pilot blacking out on 1 pass.But I can accept that as part of how the game is set up.The real issue is that there are fighter pilots in here that are really good and have no problems with buffs as they are set up now and other fighter pilots who have a problem and should communicate with the good one to learn how they do it.