Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Dingy on March 13, 2001, 09:06:00 AM

Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Dingy on March 13, 2001, 09:06:00 AM
Why not add a new perk point modifier that takes into account the relative numbers in the arena? For example, the new formula to calculate perk points would be:

Mission perk points x [(total numbers in arena /3) / your country's numbers]

So if all the countries are equal in numbers you get the standard number of perk points. If your country is outnumbered, you get BONUS perkies!  

And to put the icing on the cake, if you are heavily populated, you get fewer perkies!!!

This would also do a good job of modelling the relative difficulty of getting the kills.

Another benefit is that it would give people who are more interested in perkies and have no country affiliations to come over to the underdog to get more perkies.

THIS IS THE ANSWER GUYS!  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)

-Ding

Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: hblair on March 13, 2001, 09:36:00 AM
I vote yes for dingys idea.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Bombjack on March 13, 2001, 09:50:00 AM
Me too  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: straffo on March 13, 2001, 09:53:00 AM
hum ...
with K:30 R:30 B:30 if it's K+R vs B (for exemple) all  player got same point but who's is gang banged ?

Mpp*[(((K+R+B)/3)*B)]*(NBFieds/NBtotalFields)
would be better perhaps ?

Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: RAS on March 13, 2001, 09:56:00 AM
Well, I already posted this on the other board that has this idea on it.......GOOD idea Dingyski (don't want to keep saying that, your head will get too big...hehe).

Would chuck one other idea on to yours.  Allow us to "resupply" the damaged facilities with the C47 (or M3).  Allowing for quicker rebuild time based on the number of C47's you get in to that facility.  Would give us goon drivers something else to do besides hauling drunks around the theatre.  They did, afterall, haul cargo in those things too.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Thanks again for the great idea Dingyski-bob.

RAS  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Dingy on March 13, 2001, 10:07:00 AM
 
Quote
Originally posted by straffo:
hum ...
with K:30 R:30 B:30 if it's K+R vs B (for exemple) all  player got same point but who's is gang banged ?

Mpp*[(((K+R+B)/3)*B)]*(NBFieds/NBtotalFields)
would be better perhaps ?


Hmmm....interesting but I think ya put a multiplication sign where a division sign should be   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

So what you are saying is in addition to a population multiplier you propose having another multiplier based on the number of bases you own?   In theory its a good idea but it leaves the door open to abuse since it benefits the side which allows its bases to be captured and doesnt take any.  IMO, this isnt good for promoting teamplay which I think is important.

And anything which doesnt promote teamplay I think is bad for the arena.  Look what the mass missions put together by players like Zig, Rip and Hang have done for their respective countries.

-Ding

[This message has been edited by Dingy (edited 03-13-2001).]
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: straffo on March 13, 2001, 10:16:00 AM
 
Quote
Hmmm....interesting but I think ya put a multiplication sign where a division sign should be  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

I'm fighting with math since 2 weeks  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and I'm pretty tired  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
// Formule de Gauss pour desiner la
//                    1          - ((x - M)*(x-M))/(2*(S*S))
//  F(x) = Y = ------------- * e
//             S*(Sqrt(2*P))
FCapabilite.GaussBell.clear();
XX := LaMoyenne - 3*EC;
   if (EC <>0) then begin
   While (XX < (LaMoyenne + 3*EC)) do begin // While (X..
         XX := XX + (NBCLasses*EC)/400;
         //(1/(EC*Sqrt(2*Pi)))*
         Y :=imax*exp(-(((XX-LaMoyenne)*(XX-LaMoyenne))/(2*EC*EC)));
         FCapabilite.GaussBell.addXY(XX,Y,'',clRed);
   end;  // While (X..
   XX:=0;
   end;

Ugly no ?

 
Quote
So what you are saying is in addition to a population multiplier you propose having another multiplier based on the number of bases you own? In theory its a good idea but it leaves the door open to abuse since it benefits the side which allows its bases to be captured and doesnt take any. IMO, this isnt good for promoting teamplay which I think is important.

Yep but it will also help the country with less field having a chance of taking over and feeling more LW 1945  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And I've often see the gangbanged side having less field and being victim of endless HQ/DAR raid without being able to defend ...
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Soda on March 13, 2001, 10:37:00 AM
Way to offer a suggestion, but I'm not convinced it would make a difference.

What difference will it make if someone gets 1 perk point, or an enhanced 2 perk points for his kill of X in Y.  It won't change things and I don't believe people would switch sides just to get the extra perk point or two.

The place where you can apparantly really earn perk points (serious points) is in a vulch where you shoot helpless defenders on the ground, or you make milk runs to unprotected strategic.  Both these scenarios require that you have an position of advantage (ie. a overpowering situation ).

Another more interesting possibility, at least in my mind, is to start to limit the planes (type) that the overpowering sides can choose to fly.  ie. actually roll back the planes available so not everyone can fly a C-Hog or 190D9, instead only the 190A5 and D-Hog are available for a while.  People could still buy the perk stuff to try and finish off the job (thus making the perk plane more important at the end) but the defenders would slowly, and that is key, build an advantage in aircraft type.

I don't know though, it's only an idea and it's sure to find vast opposition from people who find their favorite ride disabled when they try and take off.

-Soda
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Ripsnort on March 13, 2001, 11:01:00 AM
Well, Dingy, I'm not a big proponent of giving weight of points to the losing side, simply because you could have a mass exodus to one side within, say, 2 hours, then those folks might get pissed when the side they were on is now the side with the fewest...and they have to wait another 10 hours (12 total) to 'switch back'..

I have seen the numbers sway from country to country so often in a 24 hour period (yes, I've been online at 4am, 8am,12pm,4pm,8pm,12am...) and one thing is consistent, the inconsistency of 'numbers' favoring any one country.
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Dingy on March 13, 2001, 11:20:00 AM
 
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Well, Dingy, I'm not a big proponent of giving weight of points to the losing side, simply because you could have a mass exodus to one side within, say, 2 hours, then those folks might get pissed when the side they were on is now the side with the fewest...and they have to wait another 10 hours (12 total) to 'switch back'..

I have seen the numbers sway from country to country so often in a 24 hour period (yes, I've been online at 4am, 8am,12pm,4pm,8pm,12am...) and one thing is consistent, the inconsistency of 'numbers' favoring any one country.

Understood Rip, but if the numbers sway as frequently as you state, then by the law of averages this perk point weighting system will have no effect on any pilot since there will be equal times they get the bonus and the penalty.

BUT....if one country is significantly unbalanced for a majority of the time then they would get a small bonus to their perk point kills. And they would continue to get that bonus (as well as the overpopulated teams getting penalized) until the numbers evened out a bit.

Eventually, an equilibrium would be reached where each country is approximately the same population.

I think this would work wonders. At least it would make flying for the Rooks worthwhile as of late

-Ding

PS...I just snipped my reply from another thread Rip...I guess it makes more sense here anyway  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Pepe on March 13, 2001, 11:21:00 AM
That was my point (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/008640.html), Dingy.

Cheers,

Pepe
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Dingy on March 13, 2001, 11:25:00 AM
 
Quote
Originally posted by Soda:
What difference will it make if someone gets 1 perk point, or an enhanced 2 perk points for his kill of X in Y.  It won't change things and I don't believe people would switch sides just to get the extra perk point or two.

I disagree...with the weighting system I propose, the country with more pilots than the others gets a small proportion fewer perkies than the outnumbered team...the lesser team gets a small proportion more.  Over the long run if things remained the same...it could mean a significant difference in their perk earning power if they stay on the larger team.  Now if perkies dont mean much to you, fine.  But if flying for the underdog means you can earn that sweet new ride 30% faster than if you stayed on the bigger side...I bet you there would be quite a few people who would move   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

 
Quote
The place where you can apparantly really earn perk points (serious points) is in a vulch where you shoot helpless defenders on the ground, or you make milk runs to unprotected strategic.  Both these scenarios require that you have an position of advantage (ie. a overpowering situation ).

Are you implying we want to encourage this???  I think alot of pilots (at least those on the vulched or milkrunned side) would prefer not to see this happen.

 
Quote
Another more interesting possibility, at least in my mind, is to start to limit the planes (type) that the overpowering sides can choose to fly.  ie. actually roll back the planes available so not everyone can fly a C-Hog or 190D9, instead only the 190A5 and D-Hog are available for a while.  People could still buy the perk stuff to try and finish off the job (thus making the perk plane more important at the end) but the defenders would slowly, and that is key, build an advantage in aircraft type.

Ugh! You are gonna get a LOT of resistence on this one, Soda.  If you start restricting what planes people can fly you are going to have ALOT of angry customers.  Better to give them a slight penalty/benefit to their perkies depending upon the player distributions.

-Ding


[This message has been edited by Dingy (edited 03-13-2001).]
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Ripsnort on March 13, 2001, 11:27:00 AM
Good point Dingy, and you know me, I'm always open to try any new idea, (part of being a software analyst!), however, keep in mind that perk points mean nothing to the likes of myself and(... I think I can speak for most of my squadron) my squadron..we just don't care about perks.  To us, AH means flying together, taking enemy territory, defending our territory, to the best of our abilities...the points, whether alot or alittle per sortie, have no meaning to us.

If the end result would be that personal insults thrown at me on private text and open text would go away, then by all means, I would say implement it!
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Pepe on March 13, 2001, 11:28:00 AM
Ripsnort,

Like Dingy says, at the end you will have equilibrium.

The mass exodus issue is easy to solve. Simply put the actual numbers in the maproom, just under the buttons used to change sides.

Cheers,

Pepe.
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Yeager on March 13, 2001, 11:36:00 AM
Didnt pyro already address this?  A perk modifyer for arena imbalance...

If he didnt, he should.  

The only complication I ca think of is the side switching but Im not sure thats neccessarily a problem.

Y

[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 03-13-2001).]
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Dingy on March 13, 2001, 11:37:00 AM
 
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
however, keep in mind that perk points mean nothing to the likes of myself and(... I think I can speak for most of my squadron) my squadron..we just don't care about perks.  

Nor to me Rip but to many new pilots without squad or country affiliations out there just itching to get their hands on the newest perk rides, I bet they might just switch.   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

Enemies cant tell whos flying that 109...is it JoeDweeb, or is it Hblair  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)

-Ding
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Dingy on March 13, 2001, 11:40:00 AM
 
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager:
Didnt pyro already address this?  A perk modifyer for arena imbalance...

If he didnt, he should.  

The only complication I ca think of is the side switching but Im not sure thats neccessarily a problem.

Dont think a change like this has been implemented and I agree it should.  

As far as side switching, remember...you still have the 12 hour side switch rule so think hard before you decide to switch.  4 hours from now, is the country I switch to going to have HIGHER numbers than the other 2?  If so, maybe I shouldnt switch.

This solution only proposes to fix consistent arena imbalances.  You are always going to have minor fluctuations as people come and go.

-Ding
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Soda on March 13, 2001, 01:47:00 PM
The problem is that earning perks is not really that big a thing, at least not to many people.  If you do play for the underdog then you earn points faster, fine, but it's not like you are going to throw your perk ride into the heat of battle knowing it will die almost immediately.  So, now you have the points but there is little of any reason to blow them.  Hey, I have enough perk points for 4 Tempests, but I'm not going to take that Tempest out for a spin where it is 5 on 1 in a vulch.

I don't condone "perk point" whoring, but it happens and will happen.  I once, get this, saw a player (this was months ago) shooting up enemy M3's on the ground.  The M3 just kept spawning and sitting there not shooting back.  I approached, made a run on it too thinking "boy this is weird, must be a newbie" until the friendly con got angry at me for shooting the con once.. yeah, he wanted to kill it himself.  I left, came back an hour later, same guy same M3... he musta had 2 connections going and was bumping up his score.  No kidding... talk about a lamer.

Anyway, I know that people wouldn't be very happy about not being able to take out there favorite ride all of a sudden because they are "winning" but basically the current situation means some of us can't take out our favortie ride because we are just going to get our tulips handed to us first plane we meet since we hold NO advantage over some of these later war monsters.  So, I have to switch rides to actually be able to kill something, and I'm not a poor pilot.

You have to scale everything to the lowest denominator to make it fair, hate to say it, but 190D9's should be perks, along with P-51D's if you really wanted to make everything fair to something like a C202.  If not, why bother having a C202 here.

-Soda
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Lephturn on March 13, 2001, 02:05:00 PM
I like it Dingy.

I would change it though.  I'd make it so that if you way outnumbered your opponents, you get get LESS perk points.  That way you not only reward the little guy, but you take away the bonus for setting up a vulchfactory and encourage folks to always attack the larger foe.  In addition, consider what happens when you have one side down to a few fields.  Now the only way to get perks is to force the reset or go attack the other side instead.  Sweet.

Pyro mentioned something like this a while ago in passing.  I think this map really needs something like this to help balance things out.

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Dingy on March 13, 2001, 03:19:00 PM
 
Quote
Originally posted by Lephturn:
I'd make it so that if you way outnumbered your opponents, you get get LESS perk points.  That way you not only reward the little guy, but you take away the bonus for setting up a vulchfactory and encourage folks to always attack the larger foe.  

Yup.  I like that idea also.  I had thought about including this but then you would have to apply the point multiplier after every kill.  My original formula only needed to be applied at the end of a mission.  

I agree tho, if this isnt difficult to implement, this is a great idea!  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)

-Ding
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: airspro on March 13, 2001, 08:16:00 PM
Great idea , lets hope it's added soon .

spro
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Spivey on March 14, 2001, 03:02:00 AM
Along the same lines, how about making the rebuild times inversely proportional to the numbers balance? So if Bishops have 30 and Knights have 30 and rooks have 15, rebuild times for rooks are cut in half.

Another idea I had was to allow the top 3 ranked pilots on a country to vote to conceed the war, thereby keeping a country from suppressing another indefinitely. The BIG advantage of this is it would provide leverage to get the country which does NOT have the most bases, but not the loser, the focus more on attacking the dominant country. In most cases the second place country stands to lose bases in this gambit. I could say to them, start attacking the other guys or we will conceed.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)



------------------
Spivey, buffmeister of the Flying Tigers
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Spivey on March 14, 2001, 03:05:00 AM
Resupply may be of limited value, since a base that is heavily damaged probably has a ton of cappers who would NEVER let the C47 near the place!



------------------
Spivey, buffmeister of the Flying Tigers
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Bmer1171 on March 14, 2001, 05:23:00 PM
This may have been mentioned before. I think that squads should have to stick to one side for the entire tour. Toward the end of the month they should apply to switch. At least this way HTC can keep track of the numbers. They only inbalances would be caused by non squad members.

Nobody wants to be told which side to fly for. But I think that most squads won't care as long as they aren't split.


------------------
Chris "Bmer1171" Toombs
332nd Flying Mongrels
"Don't fly to fight. Fight to fly."
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Fidd on March 15, 2001, 08:13:00 AM
I'd like to see change-country implemented as it is in air-warrior. Namely that if you're in a squad, you can't change unless you leave first, *and* then there's a 24 hour period where you can't change again; in fact I'd like to see that extended to a week. These gamers who change to the winning side are beneath contempt. If it were implemented this way, then few people would change sides, unless they really needed to, and the "gamer" types who swap to the "winning" side one day will maybe find themselves on the losing side for the rest of the week! Karma I call it!

Fidd
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: pzvg on March 15, 2001, 04:15:00 PM
Resupply missions would be tough, but would also add a new dimension to the game, some other notables that'd be nice:  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
A) Factories in each nation dedicated to a single vehicle type; ie; kill the tank works and no panzers,osties available for 15 minutes, same with planes by type.
B)Depots with truck convoys moving from depot to nearest base, depots can't be killed,trucks can, trucks move at same pace,when all trucks are killed, a new convoy starts from the depot, these resupply and repair any damage at bases they reach.
C) Small (rifle caliber) ack at least 20 to a base, these cannot be killed by air attack, they cease firing when enemy armor roll into base, this represents local infantry forces.
D) Comand posts these are halfway between friendly and enemy bases, friendly ground vehicles can refuel and rearm from them as well as receive light AAA cover, cannot be captured until owning base falls.
F) Cruiser or DD squadrons without a CV, these could be useful in shore bombardment without risking Carriers in unnatural combat, also good for harrying enemy CV groups.
G) Landing craft, they can come with a load out of drunks or 1 GV, when you pop the GV out on shore the LC goes back to the fleet and you drive the tank.
H) mannable antiaircraft guns at fields, now this one Hitech said they're looking at implementing so I'll leave it at that.
I)Probably need a new map for this one, but
Field restrictions on planes, ie; This field has Fw's,this one F4-U's, etc,etc, (Probably the single most unpopular idea I have but who knows?)
feedback, in the real sense of the word, is wanted.


------------------
pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: MrLars on March 15, 2001, 06:26:00 PM
 
Quote
Originally posted by Bmer1171:
This may have been mentioned before. I think that squads should have to stick to one side for the entire tour. Toward the end of the month they should apply to switch. At least this way HTC can keep track of the numbers. They only inbalances would be caused by non squad members.

Nobody wants to be told which side to fly for. But I think that most squads won't care as long as they aren't split.



So you're saying that a squad would have to get permission before changing countries? For some odd reason that doesn't sound like it would be fair at all! I like changing countries every TOD or 2 because it gives me a larger variety of opponents...but having HTC tell me what country I fly for will never fly with this old fart!



------------------
Lars
***MOL***
Men Of Leisure
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: StSanta on March 15, 2001, 11:58:00 PM
Rip said:

"If the end result would be that personal insults thrown at me on private text and open text would go away, then by all means, I would say implement it!"

U r so un|337! yor blue turd dinnae help me yesterday!!! wot u wur thinking!! I neded a guner, d00d. But you flied with dumb squad. Capture a11! Wot, why dinnae bring goon, dumb rip! Yur a cheeter, and yor lagging is self indused.

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://stsanta.tripod.com/stSanta.jpg)

"Live to pull, pull to live"
Title: Solution to Arena Player Imbalances
Post by: Yello1 on March 21, 2001, 04:06:00 PM
I agree with the original proposal that there should be a perk incentive to the players playing on a team which is out numbered. This is I think an obvious thing to throw out there to give the player who logs on to a butt kicking to feel like he is still accomplishing something by playing so he wont log and go play AW or FA etc.