Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Idiamn on December 21, 1999, 09:49:00 AM
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There are many things I like about AH (no otto for the buffs, pretty decent strat model to name a few) but with the design of the fighter cockpits, and the size relationship between your gunsite and the cons, I just cant stand it.
I find it much more immersive if all of your cockpit guages are there in front of you with out having to use a "page down" key or whatever, and it is definantly much more immersive having a gunsite that you dont have to hit "zoom" with in order to have any kind of decent gunnery abilities.
But, that is your style of design and you have people that obviously enjoy it. Its just not for me.
Good luck in the future.
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Bye!
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Damn Ghostrider! This bogey is all over me!!
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Repeat after me, "This is just a beta".
Mickey
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If you want all your cockpit indicators to be visible at once, set your head position appropriately (move your head back).
If you prefer to trade your wide field of view for zoomed-in narrow view, you can do that and save it as your default setting.
This makes you work a bit on configuring your options before you can fly comfortably.
What you get in return is an arena full of people who fly with different options, creating an environment for you!
Your personal preferences are very unusual, Idiamn. Most people opt for the wider field of view and improved SA rather then magnification of their gunsight. The wider your field of view, the lower is your zoom. That is plain geometry.
Most people do not use indicators (other then the ball and the speed indicator) that often, especially in the heat of a battle. They would prefer the gauges not to occupy the precious screen space.
Even if someone created a great simulation specifically tailored to your tastes right out of the box, you would probably not fly it because there would only be a couple of other guys sharing your preferences, most likely living in the diferent hemisphere.
Look at the Historical Arena in WB - it is great but it does not have a critical mass of players on-line to make it playable. You need at least a few dozen people on-line to make the game playable!
The great strength of AH is that it can be configured to fit many people's tastes, thus attracting players. With more players you get more action and the company gets more revenue to improve the game further for you!
miko--
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 12-22-1999).]
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I think no otto for the bombers is a mistake unless all the gunner positions in the bombers can be crewed. If your gunner crew couldn't make a mission in WW2 because they were on R&R would you still do the mission? No you wouldn't...
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Guys..
1. You can adjust your head position in the game using the arrow keys and PgUp PgDwn. Hit the view you want and hold it, adjust, then press F10 to save that position. You will have to adjust each view for each plane.
2. While you can only have one gunner currently, that gunner fires all guns that bear on the target. Hence a single gunner ends up being MORE effective than a whole bunch of gunners provided he can shoot. 6 or 7 .50's all hitting at convergence REALLY do a number on a fighter. Also, you can leave the plane on auto and man the guns yourself if need be. There is no problem here.
You guys might want to read the readme's and play the game a bit more before you make rash decisions that might deprive you of the best WWII sim on the net. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
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Cheers buddy,
I too was underwhelmed with the AcesHigh cockpits at first. After these past few months I find the virtual 3D cockpits in AcesHigh much more pleasing than the ancient 2D cockpits of Warbirds. I am actually in a defined -three dimensional space riding in AcesHigh and its great.
Although Warbirds still has the upper leg overall, due to its extended developement, I have found AcesHigh to be a more refreashing and immersive combat experience with a hell of a lot of future potentiol IMO.
Yeager
(2+ years x-warbirds junky)
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 01-10-2000).]
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Hello??? McFly???? <noggin knocking on Aaron>
This ISN'T World War II.
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I like the Idea about moving your head with the keys mentioned but so far when I start messing with those keys the view will shift to oneside or other on its's own and won't move no matter what key i press. have to go to instant view to get control of views back. some times the view just starts panning in a 360 circle and wont stop. back to instant view. happens on line and off. Spent some time in a multi bogey fight last nite looking at the bottom of my seat going round in a circle. Got shot down of course (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) never saw who dun it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I find the virtual 3D cockpits in AcesHigh much more pleasing than the ancient 2D cockpits of Warbirds.
True yeager, some of them are ancient.
But a new artist with a new paintbrush and a new plane to paint can show an improvement (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~glars/b24.jpg (http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~glars/b24.jpg)
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Glars
RNZAF
Maps now available for Beta Terrain
http://glarsmaps.warbirds.org (http://glarsmaps.warbirds.org)
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Very nice! Alot of folks all over been awiting for a sim to bring out a B-24.
Now if only it had the Aces High view system and 3D cockpit!!!!!
-Westy
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I need a real padlock view system in AH. These are several ideas:
1 - Slave the view to the mouse movements.
2 - Contiguous panning asigned to cursor keys.
3 - Automatic padlock on nearest visible aircraft from the current view.
4 - Anything else but the typical numeric key combinations, you need 432 fingers and three hands.The actual view system is just the WarBirds one, with some additions, but it is not true 3D, it is not 100% free.
5 - In automatic padlock mode (tracking), 7zoom in automatically when the target is in the front view area (ready to fire).
6 - Automatic padlock breaks when target is obscured by anything for more than 3 seconds, if the target is visible again in less than 3 secs, it is automatically re-adquired, of course, only if you keep the automatic padlock mode ON and you haven't adquired a new target manually.
7 - Any numeric pad key pressed, negates the auto padlock while it is presed, and the padlock continues when the key is released.
As examples of very good (still not perfect) padlock systems:
Falcon4 and Screaming demons over Europe.
I suppose that having implemented a real 3D cockpit (not real 3D view system) it should be very easy to implement the free/auto padlocking.
Thanks for your patience reading this and brg.
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I used to think padlocks were neccesary until I flew WB. Once you master the view system you'll never go back to padlocking.
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Padlock in some sence is an cheat. Why you ask? Cause in Real life your head dont automaticly follow the "con" you have to keep track of it yourself.
Some defensive ACM moves (scissors etc) are designed so that the attacking AC looses track of the AC that is defending, with a padlock this is impossible. . .
Also as u stated that the padlock should lock on the nearest "target", how do u sneak up on an plane in that case?
// -nr-1-
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From my point of view, automatic padlock is anything but cheat. It should be designed just to simulate the movements of the head. You dont use fingers nor keys to move your head when visually tracking any moving object. Of course, you can lost track when the object is obscured by any obstacle, but in most of the cases you can predict where the object is due its actual displacement vector, this is true only for 1 - 3 seconds in air combat. If you loose your target crossing your six to the left, you probably will be expecting it to show up again by your left shoulder. If the target do not appears again by your left in (for example) 2 seconds, you lost the automatic track. While the target is "obscured" your atomatic track is lost temporally. In the previous example, when the target crosses to the left and is obscured by your seat, your head keeps looking at your right (unless any view key is pressed), but if the target is visible again in 2 seconds of less, it is readquired automatically (unless you deactivated the autopadlock). The key is: If you can follow an object with your head, and you want to, then why to use keys? just follow this automatically untill it is obscured by obstacles or is it out of visual range. For example, real mode padlocking in Falcon4 is just designed for this, not for cheating; if you can see the object, you can track it. Of course, it is important to take into accoung the limits of your head plus your body when looking backwards. You can not argue about cheating nor "arcading" a sim with padlock when extremely real simulations like Falcon4, Flanker2, F18E, etc use it in their most real modes. The real cheat is to use labels with id, side and range inditations. Visual ID of the target is a key in air combat. But to aliminate labels the AH team should create different artwork (nationality signs) for each side, and even different camouflage patterns, etc, etc.
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"The key is: If you can follow an object with your head, and you want to, then why to use keys?"
Because padlock has the computer track FOR you. It's as simple as that.
When you look at an object in real life you make a conscience effort to do so. Not via robotic automatic tracking like padlock. In real life you do not use keys either. But you DO make a conscience in that your brain says look here and yout then move your head on your neck for that view. Not an automatic reflex.
It's a moot point anyhow. It won't be added.
I for one could care less. Guppies who use padlock are the easiest pickings there are.
Unless it's one-on-one and they have no wingmen or country folks flying near by. But I just have to add my .02 when you base your arugment on such faulty logic.
There is nothing natural about padlock nor does padlock replicate anything natural with it's use.
I firmly believe padlock to be a "situational awareness" crutch for folks too lasy to try and pick up the skills to track a bogy conscientiously, themselves. These folks have the COMPUTER do the tracking and thinking for them. Lame.
Barring having multiple computer screen showing all the caridnal points around you so that you could actually LOOK yourself the next best thing is to replicate conscientiuosly looking by hot switches on joysticks.
-Westy
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MANDOBLE, this Sim will never have a padlock implemented. I flew online in a game that had pad, used it well and thought it was the only way to go. Since being exposed to Aces High I have come to grips with using snap views and becomeing more "dextrous" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The view system works here, and after practice i find i can fly and fight (in my own muddled fashion) as well as I did with padlock. Work with it and I am sure you will find the same for your self and will be happy for the effort. This Sim is worth it!
As for all the people that tell you that pad is a crutch, well Ballocks. I have the utmost respect for the time and effort that people from AW and WBs put in to master their viewing systems, but to denigrate an alternative that was not available to those venerable games at their outset is just plain snobbery. It assumes that if you didnt do it like US your a nekulturny dweeb, with no SA skills. Sometime, somewhere I hope that a pad system is worked out that will satisfy both camps. Until then I will just save up for my multimonitor life size cockpit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
JimBear
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Don't forget VR headsets! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Yes, please give us padlock view. I want a sky full of targets locked on to each other. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
popeye
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>> When you look at an object in real life you make a conscience effort to do so.
Well, when I activate padlock, I do a conscience effort (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I suppose that you have no problem to track visually a moving object until it is obscured by an obstacle, right? There is no conscience effort to do so. Or do you need a great conscience effort to track an airliner flying around an airport? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
If you fly RC models, you should know that visually tracking them is very easy, you dont need to be a genius.
>> Guppies who use padlock are the easiest pickings there are.
True. BTW padlock does not eliminate the classic view system, when you need to concentrate in a particular target, realistic padlocking is the right way. While you are with padlock activated the classic view keys are also available, so, if you press KP4, you look to the left, when you release KP4, if still visible, padlock re-track your target. This way your SA is safe.
>> There is nothing natural about padlock nor does padlock replicate anything natural with it's use.
There is nothing natural about 26 key combinations nor does it replicates anything natural with it's use. I do not use fingers nor several hats to track anything in real life.
>> I firmly believe padlock to be a "situational awareness" crutch for folks too lasy to try and pick up the skills to track a bogy conscientiously, themselves.
True again, but only when you use ONLY padlock. It is up to the player to use it all the time or to mix it with proper classic
views to keep aware of its real situation.
In fact, I've been playing WarBirds for several years, from its begginings. And MY conclusion is that classic views plus padlocking is the better way to have a realistic air combat experience. When you are tracking an enemy, probably you will have to manage your flaps, trim your elevator, rudder and ailerons, control your engine RPM, your WEP, zoom in to shoot, shoot with primary or secondary, drop your fuel tank, etc. Too many tasks to sacrifice a hand just to press view keys. Let me know if with your actual joy settings you are able to trim elev/rudder/aileron all at the same time while you keep pressing keys or hats to visualy track an enemy... ...if you are not able, then you are not experiencing the real thing.
And for the defenders, like you, of the actual view sytem, this is anything but reallistic. You can look forward, press KP2 and look backwards without traveling by the sides. So, you invert (not turn) your head in one nanosecond. The best way to solve this "bug?" is to generate propertly the rotation of the head slaving the view to the mouse or cursor movement.
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I don't think a padlock is a cheat. In fact I think it's a disadvantage!
However, someone pointed out a few months ago that it would be a great help for disabled pilots, i.e. somebody who can move the stick and throttle but has a hard time with lots of buttons.
For that reason alone I'd like to see it implemented.
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"So, you invert (not turn) your head in one nanosecond. " I use the pan mode. Not the snap mode.
Good counter-post btw and all your points were worthy and noted. I've got to stop being too confrontational in my posts. Re: "guppy"
As for "Too many tasks to sacrifice a hand just to press view keys." I am fortunate to own CH equipment; Pro throttle, Pro pedals and F16 Fighterstick. On my CH stick are all my views so I can track and shoot the target with just one hand while using the Throttle to do trim, throttle movements and flaps with the other. Without this setup you are quite right in that adjusting trim/elev/rudder/aileron all at the same time while pressing keys or hats to visually track an enemy would be impossible and very unnatural.
-Westy
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It seems you are very lucky with your stick. I have a TM FLCS + TQS and the problem is as follows. Due the human hand desing, at least my hand desing and size, I have, at best, three operational fingers for TQS in the left (I dont have multithread fingers), and other three operational fingers in the right: one on the trigger, other (the BIG one) dancing through four hats (two of them for views) and a third one for multiple purposes (button clicks, no hats). The rest of my fingers, four, are just useless. So, I can handle, with a lot of skill, 6 more buttons or hats at the same time. The main problem is that my skillest finger is just the one that is controlling the views, so, the crude reality is that when I'm tracking a plane, I cant manually trim propertly the plane, neither control the flaps. At best, I can control the WEP, some autotrim, engine start/stop, zoom and secondary weapons. I cant imagine anyone controlling zoom, flaps, rudder, elevator and aileron trim while using the BING finger to track the enemy.
The conclusion: If you give me two more BIG fingers, I can give up about padlocking (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Anyway, I suppose that most of the players dont have a TM or CH full equipment... ...so, I suppose that most of the players need the padlock more than me...
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I rarely find the need to stop the engine drop the flaps trim in 3 axis and zoom and fire and cut throttle and look at the map at the same time.
Usually view, fire, rudder, stick, and throttle are enough.. and i have enough fingers for that on my logitech interceptor + rudder pedals
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Pongo
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"I cant imagine anyone controlling zoom, flaps, rudder, elevator and aileron trim while using the BING finger to track the enemy."
Using a CH programmable throttle with some buttons and hats, and a CH Combatstick with some more buttons and hats, I can use flaps, WEP, aileron trim, elevator trim, 3 radios, 4 radio message macros, radio buffer control, map view and zoom, weapon select, and angle autotrim -- while tracking the enemy with 8 views. (Oh, and shoot.) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The key thing here is that you don't need to see the enemy all the time to track him. With experience, you will know where he is going to be in the next couple of seconds, so you can use that time to select some control, or to check six, or find your beer. This is part of SA.
I have never really used padlock view, but I imagine it would actually interfere with the ability to predict the enemy's position, since you wouldn't need to learn to predict if the computer is doing it for you. I could be wrong.
popeye
[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 01-28-2000).]
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COD, where was I?
Don't judge a book by it's cover. But your opinion is welcome. This is just a test, until this last update. Follow through, and then make a decision. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
KKEN
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Originally posted by popeye:
I have never really used padlock view, but I imagine it would actually interfere with the ability to predict the enemy's position, since you wouldn't need to learn to predict if the computer is doing it for you. I could be wrong.
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1 - Padlocking is not predicting anything, it is just visually tracking. When you track a moving vehicle you don't need to predict anything, you are seeing the car and you are following its movements. Of course, you need to predict when you loose the track, but if you loose the track you loose the padlock.
2 - With my actual TM set I have much more functions than those you describe. In fact, I think you have much more also with your CH set, but the key is to be able to use all critical controls while tracking the enemy. If you need to loose the track to activate WEP and then trying to predict where the enemy is, then you have the same problems like me, you need the padlock. In real life your head keeps the enemy insight while your finger switch on WEP, there are no prediction at all while you can see the enemy.
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Idiamn, this is what I do. I have a not too complex three axis joystick with hat (Sidewinder 3d pro). I always fly with one hand on the number pad for views. I use the hat switch for view backup when I have to move my left hand to hit a key on the keyboard. Note that there is actually a forward view key on the keypad that does nothing by itself normally (the 8 or up arrow key). You can set the head position for this key so that it is forward or back from your normal head position. This can give you a look at your instruments from the position your left hand is normally for as long as you hold it down and not in a click on click off style like the z key. Alternatively you can have the normal view show the instruments and the alternate view be closer in.
For the view system I would suggest that you view some films of your flights while practicing the view system only with your left hand. It really doesn't take long to get used to it and I think it is much better than a padlock system, although padlock with view key override could work okay too for those that wanted to use it and wouldn't give an unfair advantage as long as it didn't track when the target was obscured by the cockpit.
Mandoble, lol, you obviously have too many dollars to spend on equipment (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). With my much simpler I never run out of fingers, although I do admit I don't have instant control of everything and could use a throttle or peddals. Taking half a second to look at the keyboard to find the k key or whatever doesn't seem to be much of a problem.
Also I don't recommend using the head moving system when in flight. That can really mess you up. I always hit f9 to disable it. Just set your views where you want them and leave them there so that you can jump to the view you want instantly with your number pad or with your hat switch(s).
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It's a good day for flying!
General Chuck Yeager
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Hollywood - the free head movement will really come into play once we get into reduced icon situations in scenarios, etc. This will be very good for situations where you are flying a steady course and need to scan for bandits.
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my 2 cents here...or my 2 pesetas (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Not only for disabled people, the padlock is Neccesary also for people like me who only has a 2-button yoke with a little throttle stick, and my trusted keyboard. No rudders. No HOTAS. So, in any fight I am:
A) controlling the plane (**OUFFF**)
B) traking target with keys (**SIGH**)
C) Taking care of rudders also with keys (**SNIFF**)
D) trying to trim the plane with 6 more keys (**AUUUUUUURGH**)
E) engaging/ disengaging WEP, also, how not...with keys! (**AAARRRRGHHH**)
F) giving six calls...yeah, you guessed...with keys!!! (**EEEEEKS**)
G) yelling HELP HELP, or my abreviate version..HLP HLP!...and of course...my little keys helping me (**OUCH!!!!)
H) Saluting the enemy plane that just shoot me down,and,of course, with the keyboard now smoking...(**SNIFFF again**)
Now let's be serious. I cant afford HOTAS...barely I can afford to buy rudder pedals, but I'm searching. I know there are more people in the same situation as mine, and if Padlock can help me please bring it in. MANDOBLE's ideas are good in realism, also. I wont mind it if I had a joystick with hat...but damn I barely have a joystick!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
I fly Falcon 4.0 a lot and I find its padlocking plenty of realism. Please introduce it, it'd be helpful. thks in advance.
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Ram, out
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/images/Ram.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-23-2000).]
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Originally posted by Westy:
"So, you invert (not turn) your head in one nanosecond. " I use the pan mode. Not the snap mode.
Good counter-post btw and all your points were worthy and noted. I've got to stop being too confrontational in my posts. Re: "guppy"
As for "Too many tasks to sacrifice a hand just to press view keys." I am fortunate to own CH equipment; Pro throttle, Pro pedals and F16 Fighterstick. On my CH stick are all my views so I can track and shoot the target with just one hand while using the Throttle to do trim, throttle movements and flaps with the other. Without this setup you are quite right in that adjusting trim/elev/rudder/aileron all at the same time while pressing keys or hats to visually track an enemy would be impossible and very unnatural.
-Westy
Westy, I also use the same equipment and I've finally settled on what's probably a "different" kind of button mapping. I never liked using the joystick hat switch for views as I find it clumsy trying to maneuver and view with the same hand so I've dedicated one button and two hat switches on my ProThrottle for this task.
I use two hat switches on the "face" of the throttle and the button where your "pinky" is located. I use the two bottom hat switches as you'll notice that your thumb will naturally go there. I consider "forward" to be where my thumb is pointing. Moving my thumb down, "right view", will move the bottom switch down. Moving my thumb up, "left view", will move the top switch up. Up on bottom button gives me forward view while down on top button gives me rear view. Forward on the bottom switch will give me the right forward view and so forth. I use my "pinky" as the "up" view modifier (KP5). It sounds more cumbersome than it actually is. In practice I can easily maintain a fluid view system while yankn' and bankn' with my right hand.
I have flaps, trim etc. mapped to my joystick.
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I just may try that Blur! It sounds very different but I have found myself slipping a finger trying to use the view AND still fly the plane to get a guns solution (or out of someone elses).
It definately warrants a look into!
Thanks.
-Westy
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RAM, leave AH for a month, and buy rudder pedals with the savings. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)