Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Terror on June 24, 2008, 03:20:07 PM
-
Got this video in my email last week. Decided I would share since I thought it was very interesting and relevent to many of the discussions in the forum.
It definitely applies to CCW. If you get into an "incident", be as calm as possible, keep your mouth shut and get a lawyer to help you make a statement.
Two videos ~40mins. First is a Law Professor, second is a Veteran Police Detective...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912&ei=&hl=en (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912&ei=&hl=en)
I found this as a "Statement card" that is carried with you in case of an incident...
Dear Officer: If I have given this to you, I have unfortunately had to do what was necessary to defend innocent life. I am willing to sign a criminal complaint against the perpetrators(s). I will point out witnesses and evidence.
As you may have experienced yourself, this is a stressful and traumatic experience for me. Therefore, I wish to make no further statements until I have contacted an attorney and composed myself. I also do not consent to any searches. I will cooperate fully once I have consulted with an attorney and calmed down. As a lawfully armed citizen, I ask for the same courtesy that you would show a fellow officer who was involved in a similar situation.
Thank-you. Printed on XXXXXXX (date)
Terror
-
It is within your constitutional rights not to talk when pulled over, how ever if you chose to do so you can almost guaranty recieving a ticket. I have not recieved any driving awards in over 16 years, I have been pulled over and told the officer exactly what I did wrong when asked. Honesty produces fairness and I've yet to recieve a penalty for doing so because I believe what used to be average (honesty) is now above average.
-
Dear Officer: If I have given this to you, I have unfortunately had to do what was necessary to defend innocent life. I am willing to sign a criminal complaint against the perpetrators(s). I will point out witnesses and evidence.
As you may have experienced yourself, this is a stressful and traumatic experience for me. Therefore, I wish to make no further statements until I have contacted an attorney and composed myself. I also do not consent to any searches. I will cooperate fully once I have consulted with an attorney and calmed down. As a lawfully armed citizen, I ask for the same courtesy that you would show a fellow officer who was involved in a similar situation.
Thank-you. Printed on XXXXXXX (date)
presenting that pre-made statement to an officer will seal your fate in court...and it won't be good. simply refuse to make any statement or disclosure whatsoever, and tell them you have nothing to say until your attorney is present.
-
Theres a lot of us you wouldnt even have to say that to.
OOPs, I forgot. Were all out to get you right?
-
presenting that pre-made statement to an officer will seal your fate in court...and it won't be good. simply refuse to make any statement or disclosure whatsoever, and tell them you have nothing to say until your attorney is present.
So what is different from carrying this card with your carry gear than carrying a gun alone? Both are being prepared, not premeditation.
Terror
-
So what is different from carrying this card with your carry gear than carrying a gun alone? Both are being prepared, not premeditation.
Terror
it shows willful intent prior to the incident.
a first year prosecutor could have a field day with that insta-disclaimer. He'd paint anyone with one of those as a wannabe cop, dirty harry, that thought he had a license to kill, even before the incident took place, regarldess of the situation and circumstances. a get out of jail free card...if you will.
-
it shows intent prior to the incident.
It shows nothing but being prepared. It's mearly a statement that I am willing to point out witnesses, wish to press charges, and would like to stay silent until a lawyer is present. If you say that a card with those statements are on it are premeditation, then carrying the firearm would also be considered premeditation.
Terror
-
It shows nothing but being prepared. It's mearly a statement that I am willing to point out witnesses, wish to press charges, and would like to stay silent until a lawyer is present. If you say that a card with those statements are on it are premeditation, then carrying the firearm would also be considered premeditation.
Terror
good luck with that.
-
good luck with that.
Zeta,
Great response...completely thought out...clear and precise...
Is having a concealed firearm along with the statement card above indicate premeditation more than carrying the firearm alone? I guess I don't see how having a pre-printed statement card would indicate pre-meditation anymore than having the cancealed weapon in the first place. IMO, its just being prepared for a situation that you know will be extremely stressful.
Terror
-
Very interesting. I'm not sure if the Spanish or Italians would be pleased with the detective's comments. But the point he made about traffic offenses. I disagree with VWE, honesty is not a good policy when it comes to police stops. Courtesy is a good policy. I was stopped on my bike once by the police. He told me I was doing 95. I said 'No way'. 'Well what speed were you doing? Expecting me to be dumb enough to say 'only 85 or something'. In any case I wasn't lying. I had no idea what speed I was doing as the speedo cable broke long before. :angel: Over the years I took the same attitude, courtesy and little talking. I have never had a single driving conviction in 24 years of outright hooliganism. :o (I'm not that proud of it though).
In this country, you definitely do have the right to remain silent. Many criminals take advantage of it. I can think of two wife killers who definitley did it but got away with it by saying nothing. Worse still, well known gangsters and terrorists simply say nothing during interviews. Even their low level followers keep their mouths shut because all interviews are taped, with a copy given to the accused. If they are released, their boss, listens to the tape. Needless to say, any indiscretion is dealt with by a bullet or two to the head. Of course when the boss is brought in. He says nothing except maybe 'I'm taking the fifh' which doesn't apply here, but everyone has seen the movies.
But the point is fair, guilty or innocent, say nothing.
Here's a clip from the Movie 'Ordinary decent criminal' Kevin Spacey played a real gangster. Note how he says nothing. Note also his alibi when the Police golf course was ripped apart. In the end the man he played was never convicted of anything despite being followed day and night by the cops. He was finally assassinated by the IRA because he crossed them too and they had a subtly different justice system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91wGPQe3-HM
-
Zeta,
Great response...completely thought out...clear and precise...
Is having a concealed firearm along with the statement card above indicate premeditation more than carrying the firearm alone? I guess I don't see how having a pre-printed statement card would indicate pre-meditation anymore than having the cancealed weapon in the first place. IMO, its just being prepared for a situation that you know will be extremely stressful.
Terror
you're not thinking about the trial, the prosecution .... or the jury. you would be painted as a dirty harry who went looking for trouble...or at the very least...planned for it. that's not the kind of position you want to be in, as a defendant in a capital crime.
if you still feel compelled to hand them something.....stand over the dead body and draw a picture of flowers and hand it to the cop...smile...and sing the national anthem in a bad scottish accent....at least that way you'll have a good shot at an insanity defense.
-
Hypothetical Jury Room deliberation:
Juror #1: Looks to me like the guy was just itching to shoot somebody. He even made that stupid card thing ahead of time.
Juror #2: Hmmm, good point.
Juror #3 Why didn't he just explain what happened to the officer? I think he's hiding something. #1 may be on to something...
-
I am with cpxxx on this: be polite, be co-operative but admit nothing. The days when an policeman could use his discretion are long gone and once the complaint has been forwarded to the prosecution service they will try and find anything to convict you with.
-
That's pretty cool, I know Det Bruch. His kid goes to the same martial arts school my kids do.
As far as carrying a written statement in my wallet along with my CCP, that would never happen. If I ever had to pull and shoot someone, as soon as the first cop got within 50 yards of me, I'd be placing my weapon on the ground, stepping back away from it with my hands over my head, CCP and ID in hand, ready to do whatever the officer told me to do. As soon as they start asking me questions I'd ask for a lawyer.
-
Yep, CPXXX hit this perfectly. Watch the vids. All the card is there for is to help you keep your mouth shut. Even completely innocent comments can be used to convict you. The card states your rights without you having to remember them in a situation which has your mind in "fight or flight" mode.
Terror
-
Why do you need a card? Just look the Officer straight in the eye and say:
"I have the right to remain silent. Anything I say can and will be used against me in a court of law. I have the right to have an attorney present during questioning. If I cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for me."
Just remember to smirk alot when saying this.
:P
-
OOPs, I forgot. Were all out to get you right?
No but some are, and the consequences if you run across one are too severe to take a chance.
shamus
-
You have the right to remain silent. Some people lack the ability.
I'm curious why you would need something like this? Why does this appeal to you?
As a Police Officer, I giggle at it and attach the chrome bracelets. You don't have to talk to me and most times, I'd rather you not. That's what detectives are for.
As a juror, I am 100% convinced you had a pre-determined plan and carry this card as part of that plan. Your self-defense claim just lost most of it's credibility.
The only way this card will "help you keep your mouth shut" is to put it in your mouth and chew.
:aok
-
Hypothetical Jury Room deliberation:
Juror #1: Looks to me like the guy was just itching to shoot somebody. He even made that stupid card thing ahead of time.
Juror #2: Hmmm, good point.
Juror #3 Why didn't he just explain what happened to the officer? I think he's hiding something. #1 may be on to something...
absolutely plausible.
Do NOT shoot another human being unless your sphincter muscle has released the contents of your bowels into your panties. This is undeniable proof that you were
scared toejamless and feared for your life and those you were coming to defend.
-
You have the right to remain silent. Some people lack the ability.
I'm curious why you would need something like this? Why does this appeal to you?
As a Police Officer, I giggle at it and attach the chrome bracelets. You don't have to talk to me and most times, I'd rather you not. That's what detectives are for.
As a juror, I am 100% convinced you had a pre-determined plan and carry this card as part of that plan. Your self-defense claim just lost most of it's credibility.
The only way this card will "help you keep your mouth shut" is to put it in your mouth and chew.
:aok
Wow :O Using the logic you just displayed there i make this counter statement then. I have an accident, you show up, i hand you my license, registration, and insurance. According to you i displayed a pre-determinded plan to 1.) drive and 2.) have an accident.
I counter giggle at the police officer that giggled first. :lol
-
You have the right to remain silent. Some people lack the ability.
I'm curious why you would need something like this? Why does this appeal to you?
As a Police Officer, I giggle at it and attach the chrome bracelets. You don't have to talk to me and most times, I'd rather you not. That's what detectives are for.
As a juror, I am 100% convinced you had a pre-determined plan and carry this card as part of that plan. Your self-defense claim just lost most of it's credibility.
The only way this card will "help you keep your mouth shut" is to put it in your mouth and chew.
:aok
So as a citizen, I see a police officer that takes preparedness as a signal for pre-judgement (ie. A CCW permit holder is looking for a situation...). I see a juror who would convict just because I carried a gun, not because I had a card that told the cops I want to exercise my rights as a citizen.
Again, why would carrying a card that states I would like to exercise some basic rights be anymore incriminating than carrying a firearm in the first place? By your logic, I shouldn't be carrying anyway.
Terror
-
So as a citizen, I see a police officer that takes preparedness as a signal for pre-judgement (ie. A CCW permit holder is looking for a situation...). I see a juror who would convict just because I carried a gun, not because I had a card that told the cops I want to exercise my rights as a citizen.
Again, why would carrying a card that states I would like to exercise some basic rights be anymore incriminating than carrying a firearm in the first place? By your logic, I shouldn't be carrying anyway.
Terror
::WHOOSH::
-
If you get into an "incident" where you wave a gun around or discharge it, you might as well face the fact that you are going to the station, no matter what you say or don't say or what kind of card you pass out.
I got my lawyer on speed dial and I would just tell the leo that he will be meeting us at the station for the interview/statement.
I would just loose the card any way.
shamus
-
So what? If you are arrested or are talking to the police, you just say nothing? :huh
-
So what? If you are arrested or are talking to the police, you just say nothing? :huh
"Here's yer sign."
:lol
Mac
-
In this age of legalism, say no more than you have too until consulting an attorney. A written statement might useful to read to remember what you want to say, but to just hand the card over and expect that to be it until the lawyer arrives is off. If on the street, the Officer will not know the facts of the situation and have to treat you as a potential suspect and at minimal place you in custody. As one poster stated, once the Officer arrives, id place my weapon on the ground, back away and await insturctions from the cop.
Keep in mind I live in Illinois, so it is highly unlikely i face such a matter since we are not allowed to CCW. In my case the situation would go more like this.
Robber: "Gimme yo $$$"
Me: "No way sucka, come n git it!"
Robber: (draws guns and fires) "aight, hows bout dat!"
Me: "Ugh Arrgh sigh" (as i lay wounded, dying or dead)
Luckily I work in a gunshop, so I am usually within reach of a weapon at home or work :)
-
Terror,
You obviously lack any experience in a court room. There is something called intent. That is a factor in a criminal situation that is totally absent in a traffic ticket.
That little card has a sentence in it that would be taken as an indication that you intended to go out hunting for trouble. Whether you had that in mind as in intent is moot, you will be portrayed that way by the prosecution and in the civil suit as well. It is totally expected you would deny int but the fact is that you went armed had that card and gave it to the Officer almost like a get out of jail free card from a monopoly game. You could plan on hearing something very much like that as you are described to the jury.
Anything that could be used to show a mind set looking for trouble would be brought into the trial and you will be tarred with it. Your lawyer claiming the opposite will be looked at as trying to mitigate the damage but the damage will already be done since the jury cannot unhear what has been said. You will be labeled as a vigilante looking for trouble and found it. In other words an armed loose cannon.
Your bit about not wanting to consent to a search, hehe you will be searched and your weapon will be confiscated right there at the scene. You do not have any choice or option to refuse. It is now evidence and you will not see it again until or unless you are fully absolved from your actions. If you had a car there it also will be searched.
If you think that you want to be treated like an Officer, you might just want to think that through a bit more. An Officer has no 4th amendment rights in a shooting. You also can be ordered to answer questions in any internal investigation under penalty of losing your job. There WILL be an internal investigation on any and every shooting incident. I suggest you think that you want to be treated like a civilian.
You won't be looked at as a "brother" to the Officers either and I suggest you not ask for that kind of "consideration" with that card. They know you are untrained and will not assume you have a clue about how the situation should have been handled. We all second guess each other shooting situations but know that there was a reason the Officer had to go there into harms way. That does not mean that your shooting won't be critiqued and you won't be held accountable by others who also wear a uniform even if it's a good shooting. You don't have to be in a bad situation, you had the option to not be there. You can darn sure be certain that you will be under intense scrutiny and the Police are not your friend in a shooting, they have to be objective about it. Until it's investigated you may be a murder suspect instead of some one who did a "right thing".
Taking a life is not something to take lightly and should be done as an absolute last resort. To me that card indicated that the person who has it is hunting to trouble.
-
Wow :O Using the logic you just displayed there i make this counter statement then. I have an accident, you show up, i hand you my license, registration, and insurance. According to you i displayed a pre-determinded plan to 1.) drive and 2.) have an accident.
I counter giggle at the police officer that giggled first. :lol
C'mon Rick, you're smarter than this. :)
In your example, you are supplying me with information that is required. If you were to tell me you didn't have any one of the three you listed, you would be getting tickets. You do not have to talk to me about the accident. That is your right. You don't need to hand me a card that says you would like to exercise your right. A simple statement to the fact would suffice. Keep in mind, explaining to an officer about the happenings of a traffic accident is not a Miranda warranting conversation; unless you killed someone or are DUI.
So as a citizen, I see a police officer that takes preparedness as a signal for pre-judgement (ie. A CCW permit holder is looking for a situation...). I see a juror who would convict just because I carried a gun, not because I had a card that told the cops I want to exercise my rights as a citizen.
Again, why would carrying a card that states I would like to exercise some basic rights be anymore incriminating than carrying a firearm in the first place? By your logic, I shouldn't be carrying anyway.
Terror
If you're innocent, which is not my burden to assume you are - that falls on the court and jury to presume your innocence; why not talk to me about what happened? Like I said, I don't care if you talk to me or not. I'm a patrol officer. My job is to handle the immediate threat and report what I find. If I find probable cause to make an arrest, I make the arrest. The only thing your card tells me is that you have no intentions of dealing with me so, I will use other means to evaluate any probable cause for arrest.
Bottom line, you're card is nothing different than you exercising your 5th Amendment rights. If it's semantics you want, fine, put it on the card and whip it out like your DL. I don't care. A juror is not going to see it as a cool idea. I assure you.
:aok
-
I found this as a "Statement card" that is carried with you in case of an incident...
Terror
Excellent video links - however... printing a pre-arranged statement on a card only makes your crime premeditated. Best thing to do is plead the 5th when questioned... ie: give your name and ID card - and answer all other questions with "I'm sorry sir, I cannot answer that question"
-
Terror,
You obviously lack any experience in a court room. There is something called intent. That is a factor in a criminal situation that is totally absent in a traffic ticket.
That little card has a sentence in it that would be taken as an indication that you intended to go out hunting for trouble. Whether you had that in mind as in intent is moot, you will be portrayed that way by the prosecution and in the civil suit as well. It is totally expected you would deny int but the fact is that you went armed had that card and gave it to the Officer almost like a get out of jail free card from a monopoly game. You could plan on hearing something very much like that as you are described to the jury.
Anything that could be used to show a mind set looking for trouble would be brought into the trial and you will be tarred with it. Your lawyer claiming the opposite will be looked at as trying to mitigate the damage but the damage will already be done since the jury cannot unhear what has been said. You will be labeled as a vigilante looking for trouble and found it. In other words an armed loose cannon.
Your bit about not wanting to consent to a search, hehe you will be searched and your weapon will be confiscated right there at the scene. You do not have any choice or option to refuse. It is now evidence and you will not see it again until or unless you are fully absolved from your actions. If you had a car there it also will be searched.
If you think that you want to be treated like an Officer, you might just want to think that through a bit more. An Officer has no 4th amendment rights in a shooting. You also can be ordered to answer questions in any internal investigation under penalty of losing your job. There WILL be an internal investigation on any and every shooting incident. I suggest you think that you want to be treated like a civilian.
You won't be looked at as a "brother" to the Officers either and I suggest you not ask for that kind of "consideration" with that card. They know you are untrained and will not assume you have a clue about how the situation should have been handled. We all second guess each other shooting situations but know that there was a reason the Officer had to go there into harms way. That does not mean that your shooting won't be critiqued and you won't be held accountable by others who also wear a uniform even if it's a good shooting. You don't have to be in a bad situation, you had the option to not be there. You can darn sure be certain that you will be under intense scrutiny and the Police are not your friend in a shooting, they have to be objective about it. Until it's investigated you may be a murder suspect instead of some one who did a "right thing".
Taking a life is not something to take lightly and should be done as an absolute last resort. To me that card indicated that the person who has it is hunting to trouble.
I could never imagine a procecutor using the Monopoly Card analogy in his closing arguements in a Capitol Murder trial. Oh yeah, I forgot to use the [sarcasm][/sarcasm].
That card is a one way ticket to the pen.
-
Actually the one time i was ever arrested the officer handed me a card with the miranda rights on it written in english and spanish and also read the rights to me out loud. I see no difference in handing that card to the officer in this case. You are just telling him you are aware of your rights and providing him with a written explanation of what those rights are.
I agree the card could be written a tad better. I also agree that as one of the individuals involved in the incident you should co operate with the officer. However only respond to direct questions, stick straight to the facts, and do not volunteer or make any judgements yourself. Remember they have video and audio recorders rolling on almost every single police car now days and the tape can and will be used against you.
I stand by my statement that your logic is flawed. It doesn't matter that the information is required what matters is that both the officer and the other party understand the law and rights of the individuals during the encounter. There are so many laws now that i think a small reminder during the event might just jog that officers memory of what he can and can not do in that situation.
-
(http://vizzaribrothers.com/images/mastercard.jpg)
For everything else, there's MasterCard
:lol
-
Actually the one time i was ever arrested the officer handed me a card with the miranda rights on it written in english and spanish and also read the rights to me out loud. I see no difference in handing that card to the officer in this case.
for the love of god........lemme repeat what most have been saying here.
It's not the communication with the COP.......it's how such an action will be treated in court.
-
Theres a lot of us you wouldnt even have to say that to.
OOPs, I forgot. Were all out to get you right?
I have to agree with Shamus on this one.
-
This was posted in another forum concerning the Statement card:
Today was the legal section of our CCW class, and as promised, I presented this proposed statement to the prosecuting attorney who teaches the section. He said that there was nothing wrong with the card - that it absolutely does not indicate any sort of premeditation of intended action. By having this and reading it to the officers you protect your rights, indicate the desire to cooperate, and also indicate that you wish to speak with counsel before giving a statement. All of these are good things. He sees nothing in the statement that could be misconstrued or twisted against you.
My caveat - this is in Ohio, and that's where he practices, so your mileage may vary. It's also not an official legal opinion sanctioned by the city prosecutor's office, just his impression. But the title was his initial response after reading the proposed cards - "That's great!"
And although he doesn't deal with civil cases, he didn't see anything in there that would cause a problem in a civil case either.
At least that is that Prosecutors take on the card....
Terror
PS. The other forum is http://www.uscca.us/forum/index.php (http://www.uscca.us/forum/index.php)
-
That card would help the Prosecutors pay for their dream house in the Hamptons.
I bet he smiled when he read the card thinking to himself "Cha-Ching"
:lol
Mac
-
If you get into an "incident" where you wave a gun around or discharge it, you might as well face the fact that you are going to the station, no matter what you say or don't say or what kind of card you pass out.
I got my lawyer on speed dial and I would just tell the leo that he will be meeting us at the station for the interview/statement.
I would just loose the card any way.
shamus
So you were expecting what? The POs to say, "have a nice day", the stiff is taken to the morgue , and thats that? Anytime anyone is killed there is an investigation. The same thing would happen with me, only worse, cause I could also lose my livelyhood.
And heres something else about Miranda. We dont have to read you your rights just cause we arrest you. I often dont even bother to read them to anyone. We only have to read them to someone before they are questioned about a crime while in Police custody. Miranda himself, the scumbag the lawyers decided to enshrine, was himself re-tried and convicted of murder. The Police dont need to read you your rights just cause youve been arrested.
And dont be so sure the Police will want to jam you up if youve been involved in a good shoot. Heres a little list of things that CAN jam you up, or, at least cause more suspicion. 1, If you, or I, have been drinking or if the incident happened anywhere near a tavern. 2, If you know the offender. 3, If it happened at a traffic altercation and was road rage. All this is why I avoid off duty incidents like the plague, and Ive had a few beauts in the past.
But any shooting is going to be investigated. If anything they will look harder at us then they will you. And dont be so sure the Police want to jam you up.
-
That card would help the Prosecutors pay for their dream house in the Hamptons.
I bet he smiled when he read the card thinking to himself "Cha-Ching"
:lol
Mac
Prosecutors, like most government employees, generally don't work on commission.
-
“As a lawfully armed citizen, I ask for the same courtesy that you would show a fellow officer who was involved in a similar situation. "
:rofl :rofl :rofl :aok :rofl NOT!
I dont know who thought this card up but........... Good lord that is funny.
If you had to experience what an officer goes through after a shooting you would be suing the department. You had better hope and pray they do not treat you with the same courtesy we get shown. LOL
-
So you were expecting what? The POs to say, "have a nice day", the stiff is taken to the morgue , and thats that? Anytime anyone is killed there is an investigation. The same thing would happen with me, only worse, cause I could also lose my livelyhood.
No I would be expecting to go to the station, didn't I say that? ,I also didn't say anything about anyone being killed.
You seem to read things between the lines that are not there sometimes.
shamus
-
for the love of god........lemme repeat what most have been saying here.
It's not the communication with the COP.......it's how such an action will be treated in court.
Your assuming that the case will get into a court. Stop assuming and get a clue. If it's justifiable self defense it would never see a court room. Also communication with the officer is essential in a shooting situation wether you be the shooter or a witness. Letting the officer know, in the same way he does when he reads you your rights, that these are your rights in this situation shouldn't prejudice your case at all.
Please feel free to post all your law degrees and how many of these actual cases you've processed so that i "may" change my viewpoint. Unless you've tried one or been involved in one it's all speculation up to this point. If i was sitting on the jury i wouldn't see a thing wrong with that card being presented. But then again i'm a gun owner, former Marine, and have served on 2 juries already so maybe i have a different viewpoint.
-
"Here's yer sign."
:lol
Mac
Thats gonna suck. They start asking you questions....
"where were you yesterday?"
"......"
"well?"
"......"
:noid
-
If it's justifiable self defense it would never see a court room.
with all due respect.......often times.....that is the exact venue where "justifiable self-defense" is decided.
Also communication with the officer is essential in a shooting situation wether you be the shooter or a witness.
on a pre-printed dislaimer card? I think not.
-
But then again i'm a gun owner, former Marine, and have served on 2 juries already so maybe i have a different viewpoint.
As I've mentioned here before, I am an attorney...limited in scope to entertainment law...but nonetheless a bit more plugged into the system than you I think.
-
for the love of god........lemme repeat what most have been saying here.
It's not the communication with the COP.......it's how such an action will be treated in court.
Yup...If you are on the stand and call your firearm a "weapon" under cross examination a good DA will nail you to the cross- "So you consider your gun a weapon? It's not a tool? A firearm? It's a weapon?"
Presenting a card to an officer as described in this thread could be used to show your willingness- nay, eagerness- to use your "weapon" against someone.
For me that card is like having a "beware of dog" sign on your front yard- If he bites someone they'll use that sign to try to prove your dog is vicious and out of control.
I think it's a bad idea to sho you even had a contengency plan just in case you had to shoot somebody- if they don't nail you in criminal court they'll rape you in civil court.
-
Yup...If you are on the stand and call your firearm a "weapon" under cross examination a good DA will nail you to the cross- "So you consider your gun a weapon? It's not a tool? A firearm? It's a weapon?"
Presenting a card to an officer as described in this thread could be used to show your willingness- nay, eagerness- to use your "weapon" against someone.
For me that card is like having a "beware of dog" sign on your front yard- If he bites someone they'll use that sign to try to prove your dog is vicious and out of control.
I think it's a bad idea to sho you even had a contengency plan just in case you had to shoot somebody- if they don't nail you in criminal court they'll rape you in civil court.
I agree with your thinking here...but I will tell you that a "beware of dog" sign disclaims complete liability on the part of the dog owner in most cases and claims. there are now entire law practices dedicated just to dog bites.
-
Presenting a card to an officer as described in this thread could be used to show your willingness- nay, eagerness- to use your "weapon" against someone.
Joining the military and learning to use a weapon could be used to show your willingness-nay, eagerness-to use your "weapon" against someone. Yea i see your logic and flunk you again. :(
Carrying a gun could be used to show your willingness-nay, eagerness- to "defend" yourself against someone.
Carrying a card stating your rights may be used to show your willingness-nay, eagerness- to "protect your rights".
Need i say more?
Plain and simple gun/police debates will never work in here as we all have different opinions. About all i can say is know your rights and exercise them. If it comes down to a court room then that's what it comes down to. I'm not the judge, but if i was on the jury that card wouldn't even be a factor in my decision.
-
I'm not the judge, but if i was on the jury that card wouldn't even be a factor in my decision.
Well, personally I would NEVER want to put my fate in the hands of 12 people who were too dumb to get out of jury duty. They are easily led, which is why attorneys use their peremptory challenges to weed out the bright ones so they can have a jury of people who are easily fooled and easily swayed.
A card like that shows a jury that a defendant in a wrongful death case had at least a thought of the possibility of taking someone's life.
BTW- ZetaNine, it'll be intresting to hear your take on the issue of intellectual property vs. file sharing and the RIAA. It'll be discussed again here, I'm sure, as soon as the subject makes a headline again.
-
BTW- ZetaNine, it'll be intresting to hear your take on the issue of intellectual property vs. file sharing and the RIAA. It'll be discussed again here, I'm sure, as soon as the subject makes a headline again.
my personal opinions -vs- my professional opinions on the topic differ greatly..but it is a favorite topic of mine....looking forward to it.
-
A card like that shows a jury that a defendant in a wrongful death case had at least a thought of the possibility of taking someone's life.
Umm, I'm carrying a firearm concealed on my person. I have *already* thought of the possibility I may have to take someone's life defending my own. If I hadn't, I wouldn't be carrying a firearm on my person. Using a pre-printed card as a way to exercise your rights shows no more premeditation that practicing with the firearm you are carrying.
Terror
-
Using a pre-printed card as a way to exercise your rights shows no more premeditation that practicing with the firearm you are carrying.
Terror
My point exactly-
DA- "So, Mr. Terror, when you practiced with your handgun/weapon, did you shoot at human silouette targets?"
What I'm saying is that a DA will make that card an issue and will use it to show a predisposition towards shooting someone- all he has to do is plant a question in the mind of a jury rather or not you were somewhat overzealous in the defense of your life.
-
A card like that shows a jury that a defendant in a wrongful death case had at least a thought of the possibility of taking someones life.
If as a legal gun owner wether you carry or just have it in your house and you haven't "thought about the possibility of taking someones life" then i would be more concerned about that than about a card with a statement of your rights on it.
When i joined the Marines at 18 that was the hardest question i had to ask myself before i signed the papers and raised my hand, could i pull the trigger if i had to. There are reasons they teach you codes of conduct and how to react in situations, there is also a reason they give you a printed manual to carry and have lawyers in the field with soldiers now. To make sure you know your "rights" and the rules of engagement.
Having said the above there is also a reason you go to classes before you get the "right to carry" or to become a police officer. To teach you when it's appropriate to use deadly force. How many times a day do we see news stories about a police shooting where the officer "thought" his life was being threatened?
I think the point here is being missed and i stated it before. Wether you hand the officer that card or not, first shut up, volunteer no information unless asked and then only give the facts, make no judgements or go into any type of guessing what might or might not have been a motive, request a lawyer as soon as possible. The only way to protect yourself now days after any incident is to shut up, know your rights, and get a shark....errr lawyer.
-
This was posted in another forum concerning the Statement card:
At least that is that Prosecutors take on the card....
Terror
PS. The other forum is http://www.uscca.us/forum/index.php (http://www.uscca.us/forum/index.php)
It was posted on a BBS in teh interwebs!!!! I must be teh true thing someone would say!!!!1111ONEONEONE
This has got to be the most appropriate time ever for this emoticon :rolleyes:
-
It was posted on a BBS in teh interwebs!!!! I must be teh true thing someone would say!!!!1111ONEONEONE
This has got to be the most appropriate time ever for this emoticon :rolleyes:
Didn't say to trust it as the end all opinion. Just that someone had ran the card by a prosecutor in a CCW class. Take the card to your own lawyer and get your own legal opinion. I just think its a good idea to have something in hand to help remind you, and potentially a police officer, of your rights when your mind will be in a mode that can make you say things you will regret later.
Terror
-
Back to the topic of the thread then..."Don't say anything."
:rolleyes:
-
Back to the topic of the thread then..."Don't say anything."
:rolleyes:
/thread
-
If you need a card to remind you of your right to remain silent, when the LEO's will be telling you the same thing, you probably aren't smart enough to own a gun much less be carrying one in public.
-
I try and imagine a situation ..
Awhile ago some thugs were breakin into houses when people were home and basically doin whatever they liked.
Well.
So situation.. 3-4 thugs try to force their way in when you answer the door, broad daylight, loved ones inside behind you.
Being prepared ..you have a stun gun or firearm near, and use it.
I don't think I would be in any position to calmly hand over a card.
It would take awhile for the adrenaline to subside enough to allow me to do much of anything with my hands.
I would be direct and to the point with the officers and you bet do exactly as they ask.
Courtesy goes a long way.
Just my 2 copper.
-Frank aka GE
-
So ....
If I'm carrying my gun in my back pack, along with my ipod, homework and buttcrack knife, and a couple pineapple people try to shake my hand, and I shoot them, I should give this neato card to the cop?
:noid
-
If you need a card to remind you of your right to remain silent, when the LEO's will be telling you the same thing, you probably aren't smart enough to own a gun much less be carrying one in public.
:aok
Exactly.
-
Well, personally I would NEVER want to put my fate in the hands of 12 people who were too dumb to get out of jury duty. They are easily led, which is why attorneys use their peremptory challenges to weed out the bright ones so they can have a jury of people who are easily fooled and easily swayed.
having served on a jury of a attempted murder trial, i can say your statement is completely false,
for the record i have also been a witness and a expert witness in other trails.
-
If you need a card to remind you of your right to remain silent, when the LEO's will be telling you the same thing, you probably aren't smart enough to own a gun much less be carrying one in public.
And if you keep insisting it's a good idea despite everyone pointing out the contrary, you probably aren't smart enough to leave the house.
-
If you need a card to remind you of your right to remain silent, when the LEO's will be telling you the same thing, you probably aren't smart enough to own a gun much less be carrying one in public.
It's not about "smart". When the mind gets into "fight or flight mode" and the adrenaline is pumping through your body, thinking straight and being able to logically pass information on to the first responders will be extremely difficult. The card is a method to help you keep your mouth shut and still pass information on to the officers while you are able to take time to calm yourself down and get a lawyer. It is not a "get of jail free" card. It is not a card that will keep you from being arrested. It is not a card that will keep you out of handcuffs. It does not imply you cannot comply with the police when they arrive on scene. My expectation of the first responders will they will want to get control of the situation, and want the "story" of what went down. Whether you read this card to them or hand it to them, it keeps what you say to them to a minimum until you can consult a lawyer. Which is the point of the videos, if you took the time to watch them.
Terror
-
That little card will have absolutely no real impact on how the LEO's will handle the situation. They will still mirandize you. Your answer once they have read you your rights is what they are looking for. It's a set kind of procedure. If that card gives you a warm fuzzy feeling, you go for it. If you had handed me that card, I'd simply be treating it like any other piece of evidence to be placed in the evidence locker for possible prosecution. It will be up to the prosecutor to either present it into evidence or not at trial if you are charged with anything.
Don't forget that there will almost certainly be a second trial. That will be the suit filed by the victim of your shooting or their survivors. That card will likely be very interesting to the plaintiff's attorney in that trial. They don't follow the same rules in a civil trial.