Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: hlbly on June 28, 2008, 06:46:12 AM
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Any tips on how to beat the f4u,s vs. spit 8 9 14 16 ? especially with equal or roughly equal E states .
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Take em vert=)
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To expand on what Yenny said, the Spit will turn better than the Corsair when both airplanes have their flaps up. The Spit also has a big advantage in thrust-to-weight vs. every Corsair except the F4U-4. The Corsair can start turning a smaller circle than the Spit by deploying flaps, rolls faster, and can can dump speed faster. But flaps increase the drag and cost E the F4U can't get back easily. So use turn fighting on the Corsair until it start using flaps to compete, then start climbing against it.
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The problem comes in if you're up against a Hog stick who knows how to maintain his E and position. An experienced Corsair pilot knows not to scrub his E to turn against a Spit for the exact reasons described by BnZ. He'll keep the fight more open, where the Spit is at something of a disadvantage.
Co-E, or even at a small disadvantage the Corsair is by far superior in the zoom, so can actually catch or lose a Spit in the initial part of the climb. Additionally, while the F4U has various tricks to dump E more rapidly her greater mass ALSO allows her to hold on to energy better as well (thus the better zoom, which may be one of the best of any ship in the game). The Corsair remains controllable at airspeeds the Spit can only dream of. While acceleration in the initial part of the dive the F4U needs a little breathing room, once she starts to wind it up the Spitfire will find it very difficult to keep up. The Hog's rate of roll is spectacular at all speeds so can be difficult to keep in-phase to begin with, but this actually IMPROVES as airspeed piles on. Don't be surprised to see a Hog in trouble point that big nose down and start rolling like mad to throw you out of plane. Chasing the F4U through a zoom climb can be a very dicey proposition. Besides the fact she'll open a bit due to her superior zoom, you MUST watch for wing-overs at the top of vertical extensions. The Corsair has a VERY effective rudder (rudder authority in the F4U is one of the best of any other ship in the game) and can haul herself over almost instantly and give you a face full of .50cal.
You also have to concentrate your fire. The Corsair won't soak up ammo like some aircraft, but she's still a tough bird and if you're not hitting her consistently and in-convergence she can be frustrating as she flies through a hail of machine gun and cannon fire and escapes a little dinged up, but intact. The horizontal stabs, outer wing panels, the fuselage immediately aft of the cockpit and engine are all particularly vulnerable to fire, and are your best aim points (this is in opposition to the Spit, which will fall apart when hit pretty much anywhere). Don't count on one-pass kills unless you're able to really get saddled up.
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Take em vert=)
When I try that I get popped !
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You also have to concentrate your fire. The Corsair won't soak up ammo like some aircraft, but she's still a tough bird and if you're not hitting her consistently and in-convergence she can be frustrating as she flies through a hail of machine gun and cannon fire and escapes a little dinged up, but intact. The horizontal stabs, outer wing panels, the fuselage immediately aft of the cockpit and engine are all particularly vulnerable to fire, and are your best aim points (this is in opposition to the Spit, which will fall apart when hit pretty much anywhere). Don't count on one-pass kills unless you're able to really get saddled up.
Unless you get in the mysterious one-ping-from-any-angle-Pilot-wound-despite-the-big-plate-of-metal-behind-pilot's-head shot in on the Corsair. :D
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Co-E, or even at a small disadvantage the Corsair is by far superior in the zoom, so can actually catch or lose a Spit in the initial part of the climb
how long/hi will the f4 climb better ? And with that huge radial engine shouldn't a climbing spiral make it bleed enough E that it cant keep up ? Especially vs. a Mk.14 ?
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=D 5-10 20mm rounds to the wing rule still apply to F4U ! 1 shot wonder w00t!
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When I try that I get popped !
You can't just pull up and vertically outrun a Corsair with a full head of steam in any aircraft except the 163... and then it might be close :D
You have to get the Corsair slow before the engine thrust of the Spit gives an advantage in vertical fighting.
Complicated isn't it? :eek:
And oh yeah, the Corsair can extend just about anytime it has the diving room to get up to speed, and thus holds the best trump card one airplane can hold vrs. another-the ability to engage and disengage at will.
See why people like the Hogs so much yet? :aok
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how long/hi will the f4 climb better ? And with that huge radial engine shouldn't a climbing spiral make it bleed enough E that it cant keep up ? Especially vs. a Mk.14 ?
It's the same difference between throwing a whiffle ball and a real baseball. A real baseball will travel much farther. The Corsair weighs twice as much as the Spitfire and it's inertia is what gives is a good zooming climb.
In a sustained climb the Spitfire will easily outclimb the Corsair. You need to have a nice head start in case the Corsair has alot of excess speed built up or he will catch you going up.
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It's the same difference between throwing a whiffle ball and a real baseball. A real baseball will travel much farther. The Corsair weighs twice as much as the Spitfire and it's inertia is what gives is a good zooming climb.
In a sustained climb the Spitfire will easily outclimb the Corsair. You need to have a nice head start in case the Corsair has alot of excess speed built up or he will catch you going up.
So throwing a spiral in wont help ? I understand the size difference like a 5.56 round versus a 7.62 round ,heavier will carry farther . however doesn't a dart fly better than a brick ? doesnt that radial create huge drag especially when turning . Isnt that why the germans tried a cowl on the 190 ?
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The main thing that'll slow down and hamper a hog is its weight, even if it's a -4 thrusting itself around like a big bull despite low speeds. Inertia will slow it down below rhythms that a spitfire can easily sustain in low speed stall fights. In a spit, you can basicaly dance around the hog as it tries to keep up with you.
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So throwing a spiral in wont help ? I understand the size difference like a 5.56 round versus a 7.62 round ,heavier will carry farther . however doesn't a dart fly better than a brick ? doesnt that radial create huge drag especially when turning . Isnt that why the germans tried a cowl on the 190 ?
Yes, a spiral climb will help because it bleeds E like crazy but if the Hog as a lot of E to begin with and starts far enough back to not have to turn much to follow your spiral then it won't help. Spiral climbs are always a judgement call.
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Yea, basically break it down. Kill its E, then take it up.
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Keep in mind guys, it is weight-to-drag ratio that counts. If airplanes are bullets, some have a better ballistic coeffecient than others.A Jug is even more massive than a Hog, but doesn't zoom quite as welll, because it is somewhat draggier. A Pony is lighter, but will regain about as much alt in a zoom climb because the drag is so low.
Now some technical questions: Since drag is proportional to velocity squared, and prop effeciency goes down at higher speeds, would that mean that the airplane with the better weight/drag ratio would have the advantage in the vertical at higher speeds. But the airplane with the better weight/power ratio would have the advantage in the vertical as speeds got lower? Or am I totally off-base on that?
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So throwing a spiral in wont help ? I understand the size difference like a 5.56 round versus a 7.62 round ,heavier will carry farther . however doesn't a dart fly better than a brick ? doesnt that radial create huge drag especially when turning . Isnt that why the germans tried a cowl on the 190 ?
The Corsair overcomes the drag of the radial engine by sheer muscle. The F4U-1(x) has 2000hp at combat power, 2250hp under WEP. The F4U-4's engine is even MORE powerful, (2500hp under WEP) plus has a four-bladed paddle prop which greatly contributes to the massive improvements in climb, acceleration and top speed. There's no prop fighter in the game other than the F6F and P-47 that can match the F4U in raw engine power (both of which also mounted variants of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800). By contrast, the 190s average about 1600-1700hp at combat power, maxing out at 1900hp with Boost, and I think they all used a three-bladed prop (not sure if they had a paddle blade or not). The F4U also has other drag-saving features (the inverted gull configuration of the wing proved highly effective at drag reduction) that can help compensate for the drag of the engine. It's also not so much the drag of the frontal area that reduces the Corsair's level acceleration, but parasitic drag from weight. The F4U weighs in at 12,000lbs under average combat loads, which is a LOT of airplane.
In vertical maneuvering drag is not so much the issue, but mass and engine power. A climbing spiral is not so much a matter of sustained climbing ability, but of energy retention. It's going to bleed you of energy VERY quickly. In many ways a climbing spiral actually works to the F4U's advantage for precisely those two reasons: The Corsair has a LOT of engine power and because of her greater mass she'll cling tenaciously to what energy she has, while a lighter-weight bird like the Spit will be rapidly bled of E. I frequently use the spiral climb to great effect, especially against excellent climbers like the P-38 and Ki-84 both of which will generally leave the F4U behind in a sustained climb (and in the case of the P-38, challenge her in the zoom).
Another thing to remember: sustained climb rate is more valuable for getting TO the fight and setting the initial position of advantage than it is once the fight begins. Actual combat is decided more by the zoom. In any sort of vertical fight against the F4U you're going to either want to have her completely bled of E, (and at low altitude where the Hog can't just roll over and dive out) or have enough of an initial E state advantage that the F4U can't overcome it with her ability to retain what E she has.
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Hi Hlbly,
What Saxman and others point out are all true, but another thing worth remembering is that a Corsair, 190, Jug, Mustang, [insert other plane that *can't do that*] can all put up one heck of a knife fight (and I mean KNIFE fight) with a Spitfire IF (and this is key), there is some altitude below both parties to work with. This allows for nose-low manuevering to maintain speed, the use of all flight manuevers, and such. It's pretty common to mistakenly think of "vertical" as simply "UP." It's also "down."
Really, the closer you get to the deck in a Spitfire vs. Corsair knife fight, the better the Spitfire's chances get, for the basic reason that the number of options each party has begin to equalize. At 10k, or even 3k, the Corsair has many more options than at < 1k.
It is also worth noting that, should you run into a Corsair pilot that knows their bird, you're almost *never* going to start a fight on equal E terms. There are simply too many tricks for a good Corsair pilot to allow this to happen. He's either going to have much more E (hopefully, from his perspective, hidden), or commit at once to beating you with less. There are many variables, but two of the most common situations you'll find are as follows:
1. Corsair pilot performs power dive before icon range, you don't notice, he's below you, "easy kill," you think, and all of a sudden you're roped; or
2. Corsair pilot merges extremely hard and is all of a sudden shooting you. You are left wondering, "how did he do that?" he is left smiling at gear, loving his flaps, and ingratiated to all the runners in the MA who made it possible for you to think he'd just ho and run away on the merge :)
That last little point (jab, depending on perspective) is key. There are an awful lot of people who will eat me alive in a fair Spitfire vs. Corsair duel, that I can suprise just enough to beat in a MA "fog of war" knife fight.
But, the bottom line is, if you really want to learn how to do it, you have to go out there and try it. I know that we've run into each other in the DA furball area. I'm not sure if I picked you, you picked me, or we had a good clean one or not (little hectic in there), but I do know that I'm more than willing to up any Corsair you want over and over against any Spit you want for some 1v1's in there to try and help ya out. If you're doing something blatantly wrong I should be able to recognize it and help you out.
If (when) you see me in there, just give me a holler.
:salute
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I disagree entirely with the use of the Corsair's landing gear in air-to-air combat. IMO they have two uses: Landing and dive-bombing. If you're closing too hot on a guy's six, pull up and use the vertical to extend on the overshoot to deny him the firing opportunity as you zip past. If you've got too much E to turn with him, pop up into a High-Yo and roll over the top of him to drop back down into a firing position.
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I disagree entirely with the use of the Corsair's landing gear in air-to-air combat. IMO they have two uses: Landing and dive-bombing.
Disagree as much as you like, but in a game where I'm sure to be gangbanged, picked, HO'd, ran from, or anything else on the regular, I'm going to use every trick I can to end the fight quickly, and the gear is certainly one of them.
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Gang-banging is precisely why it's better to keep your gear tucked in air-to-air combat. Bleeds too much E. Better to pull off if you're overshooting, or use lag rolls to lengthen your pursuit. Alternately, use rudder and skids to manage your closure rate.
ANYWAY, this is a thread on how to fight AGAINST the F4U.
Most important thing to identify first is his E state. Generally, it's a good idea to always assume the Corsair may have an energy advantage. If he's above you it's a given, especially if it's an experienced Hog stick who knows how to work the vertical and his energy. Be careful of F4Us that are making their initial approach low, too. As Caecina mentioned before, it's possible he may have entered con range after completing a dive for speed, so may have a ton of extra energy. The F4U hides its E state and airspeed VERY well, maybe better than any other opponent. A Corsair 5000yds below you that at first glance doesn't seem to be moving very fast may suddenly be 200 out and filling you with lead before you can blink.
Now, a Corsair that's already been engaged with another opponent is a little different. If he's below you it's generally safer to assume you have energy on him (though he may always have used the same "helpless low con" ploy on his last opponent).
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So what exactly is the best way to merge with a F4U? for instance 1v1 I'm in a spit 16 hes in any F4U were both at 8-10kish heading right at each other. From what Ive read from most of these posts somehow I have to bleed the F4U's energy, so i know hes going to start to dive way before me, so what really are my options here? I cant really dive with him as a head on, nose to nose fight is not a good idea :lol so would I try to trick him into a dive then pull up and break left/right so he has to use that E to climb back up to meet me? but in the process wilddle down the alt from 10kish down to 2-3k (somehow) where he cant dive to get any E? I guess the merger is always the decider when somebody is in a F4U for me, (and most of the time I loose), but on the other hand most of the time anybody in a F4U I can assume they can be a very experienced pilot and know very well the mechanics of their plane. Since the F4U is very good at holding E one can assume they will always come in high and do what I like to call "the dive of death" and get on my 6 so for me my options seem limited when they have tons of E on me I really cant out turn them, I cant dive so running away isn't a option. Long story short how can one have an advantage on a F4U (unless they are busy with somebody else and you can sneek up on them) when they most of the time get the jump on you? So what would my options be when in a spit 16vs a F4U in general fighting and during a merge?
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I wouldn't assume the F4U pilot is always going to go into any sort of extended nose-low maneuver on merge. I do this on the initial merge, but only to build some extra E, give him a more difficult snap-shot (closing rate + deflection angle = tougher shot to land, tho it's dangerous as I'm presenting my cockpit to him. I try to offset to the side for this reason) and avoid a HO. Once the initial merge is completed and we pass, I use that split-second where I'm under his tail and out of sight to go vertical into a hard zoom. Depending on experience level of my opponent, that's usually enough for him to lose me as he's looking LOW, while instead I went high. It's then just a matter of rolling over the top of him in a high-yo or barrel roll with a high vertical component and dropping back in on his six, especially if he's in any sort of level or nose-low turn trying to locate me. I find it very effective against inexperienced or average pilots. Occasionally this has worked against more experienced/veteran pilots, though generally I need a few more moves from this point to complete the kill.
Otherwise, the only time I enter an extended dive is if I'm in trouble and am looking to get out of the fight. I always try to stay high.
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The problem is not defeating a good 4-hog pilot in a Spitfire. I could never do it. The best a really good Spit pilot will be able to do against a real good 4-Hog pilot is survive since the faster Hog can dictate the fight. At the end of the day, the perfect spit and the perfect hog pilot will not have touched each other at all.
The problem with the Corsair IMO is only that when it turns tight, it cant hold E well due to the flaps and when it does hold E well, it can't turn well. This is why the best hog pilots wont drop the flaps past 20 degrees most of the time. The fact the the aircraft rolls only well usually above 200 IAS is an advantage a Spitfire, particularly the XVI, can use.
The problem is defeating a 4-hog in a P-38J... I've tried and only won against completely inexperienced hog pilots.
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We all know saxman loves his Hogs and he paints a picture that they can't be beat by a Spit. In fact they can.
Understand that there are differences among the Hogs. The D is probably the easiest to beat. I think it's heavier than the others and is usually flown by less experienced Jabo pilots.
The C is also fairly easy to beat as long as you don't EVER let him get a gun solution on you. Against equal pilots the Spit XVI/C-Hog dual is pretty equal. I've gone several rounds in this match-up against some very good C-Hog sticks.
The 1A is a bit trickier. It's more nimble and is usually flown by better than average fighter sticks.
I don't run into many 1's.
The 4 is simply a speed demon.
The best advice given here was when Yenny said "So use turn fighting on the Corsair until it start using flaps to compete, then start climbing against it."
Get the Hog turning and get him turning hard. Keep your flaps up. You've got plenty of turn rate until he drops his flaps. Once the flaps are out in a hard turn the Hogs bleed E quickly. The Spit can then exploit it's acceleration and 4000 ft/minute WEP climb rate to take the fight vertical. The Hog will try to follow and might attempt a nose high shot but he'll have to drop the nose pretty quickly and may be wobbling on his shot attempt. The spiral climb works great agianst that wobbly nose high shot BTW. Then it's a matter of keeping the pressure on him by fighting in the vert. Climb, reverse, drop on him. Rinse and repeat. He'll be forced to continue turning to avoid your shots, never regaining his lost E.
As to the co-alt merge there's really no difference. Get him turning hard. Once he bleeds E his only option will be to go nose low and try to outrun you to the deck. Be ready for it. You've got a momentary acceleration advantage to take the six shot. Even if you chase him down the same thing applies unless he just runs from you.
While not great, over the past six months I have 53 kills of Hogs vs 20 deaths by hogs. 36% of all my fighter sorties are in the Spit XVI over that period. I really don't give the F4U any more or less consideration than any other plane in the set when engaging one. [EDIT] Forgot to mention that many of my deaths to Hogs (maybe half or more) are being Jabo'd while in GV's so the air to air numbers are actually a lot better.
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You'll notice the operative part in all this is getting the Hog to bleed itself of E. You'll also notice that my position from the start was that a good Hog stick won't let you do that. He'll keep his energy state in a range where he can use his superior zoom to counter the Spit's advantage in sustained climb, and will only use one MAYBE two notches of flaps in maneuvers, and even then only long enough to get the nose around. The Spit's acceleration loses its luster above 300mph when she begins nearing her level speed cap, and in high speed maneuverability (rate of roll and turning capability) the advantage is in the hands of the F4U.
This is how I fight in the F4Us. If at all possible I stay above the Spit, and keep the fight open and fast, working flaps up and down to get a quick corner with one or two notches, which is generally enough to haul the nose around for a shot and tucking them away immediately so I don't blow all my E turning. I avoid sustained turning fights where my speed gets down and the Spit gains the energy advantage due to acceleration and sustained climb.
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Do you ever get tired of describing how you're the best F4U stick on the planet?
The guy asks how to beat the Hog and all you do is keep bragging about how good you are. :rofl
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i kill em both in my Huuri2c. quit easily, until i find a stick that knows his plane, well then i ether die or its not so easy to kill em, or get picked by some BnZ dweeb.
oh sorry for the heist. im such a rude Bastage.
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The best advice given here was when Yenny said "So use turn fighting on the Corsair until it start using flaps to compete, then start climbing against it."
I dont' mind you confusing the two of us B.E., but Yenny might take it as a mortal instult :D
BTW, someone mentioned drag on radial engines. Properly cowled, radial engines aren't much draggier than the best liquid-cooled inline designs. Some of the fastest planes ever designed (F4U, La7, Sea Fury, F8F) use radial engines. The holder of the speed record (528 mph) for piston aircraft, Rare Bear, is a highly modified F8F Bearcat.
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In all fairness I see both of your points, Bald that helps out alot that at least gives me some tactic I can use and at least gives me a fighting chance, and is something I did not know thanks alot for that information. On the other hand a good pilot (such as Saxman) he knows my plane as well and will know how not to get in that situation, so its just the matter of who makes the pilot error first, I have been experimenting in a HurryCII actually but I feel I can beat a F4U so long as I keep to one plane (Spit16) at least while in the learning curve for this game. Once I get comfortable I might move on to something more advanced but getting there is easier said than done. At least this information is out here on these forums for any new pilot. My advise for them is knowing your enemy's plane is half the game, learning as much as I can now will help me and others improve there pilot skills later on. Great thread for learning and I'm always up for learning new things :aok
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Wanna beat an F4U? Just get on my six! :rofl
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Great info everyone.
For us F4u pilots, let's hope this bring on more fights...tired of chasing planes all over the map, when they see a F4u1-d :D
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When all else fails, drag him in real close and take him out with all the bits that fall off.
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Snip.
Hlbly and I met up in the DA for about an hour last night, and went through a number of knife fights. What BE's saying here has a lot of merit, for any of you Spit pilots wondering the same things as Hlbly.
Basically, what I found fighting him, was when the fight generally consisted of nose to nose turns (ie, scissoring), I would be able to keep the advantage, but when it all of a sudden went nose to tail turns (chasing each other around), yeah, I could keep up with him for awhile, but that acceleration and climb would make me try to look for an angle where I could break off and go back into a nose-nose turn, rather than look for an angle where I could get a guns solution on him.
Of course, attempting to revert into a nose-nose situation is very problematic. On the first cross you're basically handing him a great shot, and you don't have a whole heck of a lot of E to work with to deny it. Very hairy situation (he certainly lit me up on one of them).
I don't know. Certainly a fun fight and one that can last awhile. One worth attempting, in my book :aok
Saxman, if you see hlbly online, get him into the DA. I think it's fair to say you and I have different styles of flying. Both get results and both are ones he's going to want to practice against. Personally, I'm the sort of guy who just loves being in trouble, so I tend to try and beat people at their own game. You seem to take a much brighter approach :)
(For that matter, get me in there too. I'd be interested in getting a schooling myself).
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Do you ever get tired of describing how you're the best F4U stick on the planet?
The guy asks how to beat the Hog and all you do is keep bragging about how good you are. :rofl
You want to clue me in on where you came up with that accusation? This is TWICE now in this thread you've put words in my mouth. :mad:
It's all well and good to tell him "Bleed the Hog of E." But saying is one thing, and doing it is another if he comes up against someone like MtnMan or TequilaChaser who aren't likely to get pulled into a low and slow knife-fight vs a Spit.
And I've learned as much, if not MORE, from someone describing or showing what they did when FLYING a plane as I did being told how to FIGHT it.
Caecina and hlbly,
I don't fly in the DA much, but pop in periodically when I need a break from the Mains. I haven't been flying much lately in general outside FSO and squad activities, but have been trying to work some more stick time in. I don't consider myself much of a trainer tho, but if you want let me know when you'll be in there (I'm in CST). Tequila Chaser and MtnMan would be better choices to look up in that regard. TC is in the training corps, and while I've only fought him once I think he advocates more of the E-fighting style in the F4U (at least that's how our fight broke down). MtnMan I believe also generally prefers open/E-fighting in the F4Us.
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snip
Please, tell me where, in your lengthy diatribes, you've answered the original question; how to beat an F4U with a Spit XVI other than your sugggestion to pick one that's already engaged in a low turn fight.
The thread wasn't called "How do you fly and fight in an F4U", which is all you've added to the thread. It was called "How to beat the F4U?"
To every response, your gone to great lengths to make a case that YOU can beat the responder. How is it then, that I've got (most likely) a 5:1 K/D rate against F4U's in Spit XVI's? I've fought TC and beat him three times in one night although one was a pick so we won't count that. One of those he was in a Hog, the other he was in a Typhoon.
Maybe your so afraid to fight that you want to scare anyone from engaging you in your beloved Hog? Maybe you want everyone to fly the F4U? Then HT can change the name of the game to F4U's High and lose 90% of his subcribers. It sounds like your style is to come in with an alt/E advantage and pick low cons. No problem if that's how you get your $15 worth but at least be honest about it.
I have nothing against you saxman. You're a great resource in how to fly and fight in the F4U but please, try to stay on topic, especially in the Help and Training forum. It's bad enough in the MA's without trying to scare everyone from engaging a specific aircraft and instead running, especially when the F4U is, for the most part, an easy kill.
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FWIW describing the F4Us like he does isn't without value to answering the OP.
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Looks like Saxman covered the do's and dont's and explained it's weakness compared to certain planes. It should be helpful to all, whether you are in the F4u or flying against it.
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Thanks for all the input guys . If a person thinks the only place to learn is in TA or DA they are missing some very vital information . If any of you see me online lemme know if ya want to go do a lil practical application . I take a beating cheerfully and happily use what I just learned on the next guy
<S>
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Wanna beat an F4U? Just get on my six! :rofl
mmmmmmmmmmmmmm when ?
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For me this thread has given me tons of info and insight to the mind of a F4U, question tho BaldEagl is the spit your primary plane you fly in? id also be interested in a beat down to learn from that experience and be dishing out the pain instead of receiving it :D
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For me this thread has given me tons of info and insight to the mind of a F4U, question tho BaldEagl is the spit your primary plane you fly in? id also be interested in a beat down to learn from that experience and be dishing out the pain instead of receiving it :D
I fly four primaries; Spit XVI, F6F-5, BF109K-4, and FW190A-8 but the Spit edges the others out consistantly. Beyond that I try to get time in every other plane in the set at least every 3-6 months.
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Please, tell me where, in your lengthy diatribes, you've answered the original question; how to beat an F4U with a Spit XVI other than your sugggestion to pick one that's already engaged in a low turn fight.
The thread wasn't called "How do you fly and fight in an F4U", which is all you've added to the thread. It was called "How to beat the F4U?"
To every response, your gone to great lengths to make a case that YOU can beat the responder. How is it then, that I've got (most likely) a 5:1 K/D rate against F4U's in Spit XVI's? I've fought TC and beat him three times in one night although one was a pick so we won't count that. One of those he was in a Hog, the other he was in a Typhoon.
Maybe your so afraid to fight that you want to scare anyone from engaging you in your beloved Hog? Maybe you want everyone to fly the F4U? Then HT can change the name of the game to F4U's High and lose 90% of his subcribers. It sounds like your style is to come in with an alt/E advantage and pick low cons. No problem if that's how you get your $15 worth but at least be honest about it.
I have nothing against you saxman. You're a great resource in how to fly and fight in the F4U but please, try to stay on topic, especially in the Help and Training forum. It's bad enough in the MA's without trying to scare everyone from engaging a specific aircraft and instead running, especially when the F4U is, for the most part, an easy kill.
I was not going to post to this thread until I saw this, BaldEagl, I praised and saluted you for the fun fights, although I knew going into it the following: "YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSE TO TURN FIGHT TYPHOONS AGAINST SPITFIRES"........ as for the killing me three times WTG, awesome <golf Clap>.......now to put it in a more meaningful context, I will be glad to meet you in the DA at anytime you like and fly against you in a 1 vs 1 environment, so you can come back and say you beat me THREE times.......the film of that night when you got those 3 kills, was always multiple enemy vs Me..the 1st one was you in your spitfire and an La7, the second involved 2 or 3 spitfires, 1 P51, 1 c205 and 1 La7..........the one you got me where I was in a Hog, was also multiple enemy vs me..........so I really do not understand how you posting the above has any value to what you are claiming, Sir...... in all seriousness, the post I have quoted you on above has no place in the Training and help forum..........
Now, as to the original poster's question, here are a few things to think about or do (some of them have already been posted before by others, and Saxman has given some good info also )
hmm.how to beat an F4U with any type spitfire?
1st off, as Saxman and maybe others have mentioned, you will want to quickly pick up on / recognize your F4U opponent's E(energy) state, you can tell this by how fast his closure rate is ( closure rate is the counter on him dropping ). If his counter seems kind of slow but is dropping turn into his direction and get a read on it, chances are he is shadowing you until he is with in striking distance, so you do not have a lot of time to react. Also, scan around and make sure their are no other threats close by ( you don't want to get picked :D )
2nd -, stay in the spitfire's best flight envelope perferably between right at best instantaneous turn speed/rate and it's best sustained turn speed/rate........next when you go to turn, if you get the angles advantage first, then turn to the right, or try and force him to turn right!
The F4U has a bit of trouble maintaining a good turn to the right with out throttle management. This will give you and edge to try and bleed his E.........
3rd - Try and recognize the skill level of your F4U opponent , if you pick up on him being a better skilled Stick, then just give it all you got, ( I should have posted this 1st - FILM ALL FIGHTS, and try and look for what you did wrong, if you can not figure it out post your films here, so others can figure it out for you )
4th - PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE
5th - as Ren always said "Train Like You Fight! - Fight Like You Train! "
I have other thoughts and opinions, but have a mental / typing words block at the moment
~S~
edit: hlbly, are you the original hlbly from Air Warrior?
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This has been a great thread until baldeagle started attacking certain peeps...The information that sax was giving imo was very insightful..Ty sax :salute Other than that Baldy It sounds like sax has u intimidated for some reason..There will always be terds that ruin things that are going in the right direction...Some low self esteem people always have to jump in and put there unappreciated garbage into the mix..
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edit: hlbly, are you the original hlbly from Air Warrior?
Yup its me TC good to see you bro . would love to do a lil training with you . I have been back 5 weeks after about 6 year layoff . although I tried to fly about 4 years ago . had a few challenges but i am rdy to go now .
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Yup its me TC good to see you bro . would love to do a lil training with you . I have been back 5 weeks after about 6 year layoff . although I tried to fly about 4 years ago . had a few challenges but i am rdy to go now .
Good to see an old friend show back up, will try and catch ya online hlbly........and help ya if I can ~SALUTE~
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Good to see an old friend show back up, will try and catch ya online hlbly........and help ya if I can ~SALUTE~
Look forward to it my brother .
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I was not going to post to this thread until I saw this, BaldEagl, I praised and saluted you for the fun fights, although I knew going into it the following: "YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSE TO TURN FIGHT TYPHOONS AGAINST SPITFIRES"........ as for the killing me three times WTG, awesome <golf Clap>.......now to put it in a more meaningful context, I will be glad to meet you in the DA at anytime you like and fly against you in a 1 vs 1 environment, so you can come back and say you beat me THREE times.......the film of that night when you got those 3 kills, was always multiple enemy vs Me..the 1st one was you in your spitfire and an La7, the second involved 2 or 3 spitfires, 1 P51, 1 c205 and 1 La7..........the one you got me where I was in a Hog, was also multiple enemy vs me..........so I really do not understand how you posting the above has any value to what you are claiming, Sir...... in all seriousness, the post I have quoted you on above has no place in the Training and help forum..........
I knew you'de jump in and I have to correct you TC. In the first fight you started with a 4-5K alt advantage on me but it was one on one the entire way. Yes, you did have the balls to turn fight me with a Typhoon, but it wasn't multiple on one.
In the fight with you in the F4U, in fairness, it did start two on one but two of your countrymen in P-51D's soon joined the fight. If you recall, you said on text that you thought i had left the fight. I mentined that I had extended out to get a better grip on where those BnZ ponies were as I had lost vis on them.
Saying I beat you wasn't meant as a brag against you. I brought it up only in response to saxman's claim that a Spit couldn't beat certain pilots. It just happened you were mentioned. If you want to duel, then fine, I'll be glad to do so at our mutual convenience but it won't be to prove anything on my part. I'll take my beating, or not, in fun.
I'll offer an appology to saxman, even though I believe his bias toward the F4U, and bias against the Spit, as seen in this and many other threads is just a little over the top. I went over the top myself when he immediately responded against my post. He has done so in the past with me in Spit vs Hog threads and I guess this time it just pushed me over the edge. That said, I was out of line and I appologize. As I said in my second post, we all know saxman loves his Hogs.
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I knew you'de jump in and I have to correct you TC. In the first fight you started with a 4-5K alt advantage on me but it was one on one the entire way. Yes, you did have the balls to turn fight me with a Typhoon, but it wasn't multiple on one.
In the fight with you in the F4U, in fairness, it did start two on one but two of your countrymen in P-51D's soon joined the fight. If you recall, you said on text that you thought i had left the fight. I mentined that I had extended out to get a better grip on where those BnZ ponies were as I had lost vis on them.
Saying I beat you wasn't meant as a brag against you. I brought it up only in response to saxman's claim that a Spit couldn't beat certain pilots. It just happened you were mentioned. If you want to duel, then fine, I'll be glad to do so at our mutual convenience but it won't be to prove anything on my part. I'll take my beating, or not, in fun.
I'll offer an appology to saxman, even though I believe his bias toward the F4U, and bias against the Spit, as seen in this and many other threads is just a little over the top. I went over the top myself when he immediately responded against my post. He has done so in the past with me in Spit vs Hog threads and I guess this time it just pushed me over the edge. That said, I was out of line and I appologize. As I said in my second post, we all know saxman loves his Hogs.
Honestly Bald, I could care less if I can beat you or you can beat me, I appreciate your cander in apologizing for the little flamefest you and Sax may have had.......
as for correcting me, don't correct me unless you know without a doubt you are 100% correct yourself........I will leave it at that........I can email you the 3 films if you want to correct me on this particular night we ran into each other.........yes I went AFK and flew damn near across the map and was 36K in a Typh.I came back and I dropped altitude til I was co-alt and nearly co-speed when I engaged........and as I stated all 3 fights was multiple .......
but it really does not matter either way...what matters is not bioching with others, and providing answers to peoples questions and helping others
~SALUTE~ it all plays........
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The simple fact on the Spit vs F4U thing (like other dissimilar plane match-ups) is that in order for the spit to prevail he needs to get the faster F4U slow and "pinned down" and minimize his options. If he (the spit) doesn't, he can't expect to win against it on a regular basis.
The simple fact of the matter is that if the Hog has speed and/or alt he can dictate the terms of the fight, and should be expected to do so in his favor. As a hog pilot I honestly look at Spits, Hurri's, Zeke's, and N1K's as just another scalp to hang on my lodgepole. If they're lower/slower than me, I can kill them at will. They may squirm around a bit and make things interesting, but unless they get me to make a mistake and blow my E to where they can keep the fight very "tight" they're in trouble, and I'm not. If I have 4-5K alt above ground they really can't do much to me unless I let them (I make a mistake). A good spit (or insert other plane) pilot can be a handfull for sure, but again, can't do much if the F4U doesn't play by his "rules".
If they come in higher they're a threat (but only because they have enough speed to get/stay close to me), but really only until I can fool them into putting themselves in a bad position. Then they'll normally revert back to a tight turn to block my shot, and if I fly E-conservatively for a few seconds I'm back in charge. That's the beauty of the faster plane types. If I'm faster, I can dictate the fight, and if I have enough alt I can scrub E/speed at will, briefly, without too much danger because I can simply go nose-down for speed again if I want/need to. Again, the choices are mine because my plane choice allows me to dictate the fight.
As Saxman mentioned, a "smart" hog pilot won't allow the spit pilot to dictate the fight, or to fool him into getting low and slow and "pinned down". As BaldEagl mentioned, the spit can prevail over the hog if he flies "smarter" than the hog and convinces the hog pilot to screw up, and then is able to quickly capitolize on that mistake before the hog pilot can take control again. The closer to the ground and the slower the F4U is, the better for the spit (notice I said slow F4U, not slow Spit).
So, that basically means that for the spit to prevail he needs to get the F4U to fight on the Spits terms. For the spit to control the fight he needs to maintain enough E to keep enough speed to make repeated slashing attacks on the Hog, and keep the Hog dodging, blowing his energy, and getting trapped. Can the spit slow down and "saddle-up" on the hog's six? Sure, but he'd better end the fight quickly, or the hog can take it over again. If the hog is allowed to sneak out and extend to get speed back the Spit is now pinned down and unable to get away. Saddling up is fine if you can end it quickly, but dangerous if you can't. Basically, the spit needs to switch gears to an E-fighting mode, where we normally see them used in a TnB mode of fighting.
Unless the spit has enough E/speed to control the hog, he's not dictating the fight. The same can be said for spits (or other "slow" planes) fighting ponies, 190's, 109's (or any other "faster" planes).
Or for that matter, my wife's cat vs my dog (JR Terrier)(He has abnormally fast speed for a JR). The cat lives outside, the dog lives inside. The dog RULES the ENTIRE YARD! But the cat RULES the PORCH. If the cat strays out into the yard, the dog chases her without mercy, and eventually she goes up into a tree until he goes away (long time, hehe, he's crazy about chasin'!).
But here's the kicker. The cat rules the porch, which the dog uses to enter and exit the house. On the porch, the cat can back into any number of places, and is awful formidable from the front end with her teeth and claws. She's also able to launch attacks, since she has safety so close behind her. She'll chase the dog off the porch, and set up on the steps and WON"T ALLOW him to come back up. She has food/water on the porch, and has no reason to leave. He sits out in the yard and whines until we come rescue him and escort him back inside!
See the correllation? Both have strengths and weaknesses, can dictate the fight under certain circumstances, and both are vulnerable in other situations. Recognize how/where you can dictate the fight, and use that to your advantage...
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As a green F4U driver. I wanted to extend a THANK YOU to mtnman, saxman and all the others whom have contributed to this post. :salute
I know the post is "How to beat the F4U". But I've picked up more from these replies than the 2-3 mo. I've been flying.
I am/was the poor fool dropping my flaps and gear trying to turn with the Spit and 109's well bellow 5000K, with the stall horn blaring at me like its my wife wanting to know why the honey do list isn't done yet. only to find my self back in the tower of the Field or CV I launched from scratching my head wondering WTF just happend :cry
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As a green F4U driver. I wanted to extend a THANK YOU to mtnman, saxman and all the others whom have contributed to this post. :salute
I know the post is "How to beat the F4U". But I've picked up more from these replies than the 2-3 mo. I've been flying.
I am/was the poor fool dropping my flaps and gear trying to turn with the Spit and 109's well bellow 5000K, with the stall horn blaring at me like its my wife wanting to know why the honey do list isn't done yet. only to find my self back in the tower of the Field or CV I launched from scratching my head wondering WTF just happend :cry
Alot of people suggest "drop Gear" in the hog, and only in extreme circumstances should one be doing this, for it scrubs off TOO MUCH E that is hard to reaquire in the same significant amount of time, especially when turn fighting certian planes.........
Nice Post, mtnman <thumbsup>
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Alot of people suggest "drop Gear" in the hog, and only in extreme circumstances should one be doing this, for it scrubs off TOO MUCH E that is hard to reaquire in the same significant amount of time, especially when turn fighting certian planes.........
Nice Post, mtnman <thumbsup>
I've found that dropping gear at the merge briefly can really help you match a Spit's initial move... But I suppose committing to a do or die knife fight vs. one would be an "extreme circumstance," anyway :)
Then again, I'm just that idiot who likes to try and beat people at their own game, and I usually wind up in the tower early for my troubles. (Worth noting, it's not quite as usual as it was when I first started trying it...)
I'm just saying, if you're scrubbing too much E on purpose and with intent it's a different ballgame, but you'd better know you're doing that and have a plan with it.
Btw... "Caecina" = Vudak... Know Skuzzy frowns upon "two" people posting in same thread. Just got my old name back yesterday.
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Vudak can knife fight with the Corsair. I knows from esperryence. <S> Vudak, glad to see you back
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Just fly the f4u for awhile that is the best way to learn its strength and weakness. It is best to spend enough time to get good in it.
Hope this helps.
Your first merge will tell you alot about the pilot in any plane, or how they enter the merge. It is this information that is best used to defeat the f4u + knowing what the plane can or can't do.
As far as a direct answer to your question bnz and some of the others have it right.
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Guys wonderful posts Vudak thanks for the help . Wont bore you with screen shots but i want to share this encounter . In the DA myself in a mk9 nme pilot in f4u4 . I am about 80 mph faster they are about 1000 feet higher .<pretty equal e imho>. nobody else around . Nice fight but the nicest part I happened to prevail . I wont mention pilots name because I don't want to embarrass them but they are a good stick who was routinely beating me before . I cant thank all of you enough .
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Bleed their E then once they start using the flaps and gear dweebery go verticle, rope the dope, drop down and take the shot. Don't fly to their planes advantage low speed rolls and turns with flaps unless your in a zeke or FM2 etc you'll be back in the tower.
Nothing sweeter then killing C-Hogs. :devil
<S>...-Gixer
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Recently I've been having problems fighting slippery types. Namely the Hurrincanes, sometimes Zekes and SpitV/IX/VIII's. Of course, there's no problem running to extend but what after that? They'll almost always use their better sustained climbing advantage against me and all I can do is zoom. By this time, the e/a is almost within firing range so gotta shallow dive or just run and we're at square 1 just with a little more alt.
Against the offline AI, something that's always worked against them (or worked for them when I was on their tails) was somewhat of a flat scissors but stuck in the vertical plane rather than in the horizontal plane. First I'd cut throttle almost to nil I'd pull up and as soon as they start to gain a lead (or right before) I'd flip over and pull up again. Just before they gain a lead, I flip over again and pull up continuing the process until they either overshoot or they break off.
Don't know how that would work against human players though. It usually works when the AI uses it against me hehe.
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What you describe is more or less a rolling scissors.
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That's what I thought too when I read what I wrote. However, it's completely different.
A rolling scissors (if you think about it) stays in the horizontal plain as a whole maneuver. Vertical element is added by the rolling but the entire helix is stretched across the sky horizontally. This maneuver that I described is different in that it requires a good amount of altitude as it is a diving maneuver. Nor is the maneuver a helix. I haven't the foggiest on how to post films but perhaps someone can post it for me as the AI do it all the time as a defensive maneuver in order to get the fight faster.
Imagine flying straight and level then going inverted; 180 degrees and pulling up. By the time you get to the other side, you're obviously not inverted anymore. Then go inverted again and pull up, and you end up in essentially the same position. There is actually no 3D element or helix to it, but the maneuver extends downward since you're gaining speed and you flip over inverted relative to your previous position when the enemy is about to get a lead on you.
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Series of Split Ss....when you think about it, its a flat scissors except going down.
That's what I thought too when I read what I wrote. However, it's completely different.
A rolling scissors (if you think about it) stays in the horizontal plain as a whole maneuver. Vertical element is added by the rolling but the entire helix is stretched across the sky horizontally. This maneuver that I described is different in that it requires a good amount of altitude as it is a diving maneuver. Nor is the maneuver a helix. I haven't the foggiest on how to post films but perhaps someone can post it for me as the AI do it all the time as a defensive maneuver in order to get the fight faster.
Imagine flying straight and level then going inverted; 180 degrees and pulling up. By the time you get to the other side, you're obviously not inverted anymore. Then go inverted again and pull up, and you end up in essentially the same position. There is actually no 3D element or helix to it, but the maneuver extends downward since you're gaining speed and you flip over inverted relative to your previous position when the enemy is about to get a lead on you.
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A rolling scissors is more of a coil, or rather two coils intertwined. A series of barrel rolls.
The maneuver you're describing seems to be a normal "flat" scissors flown vertically, and while descending, rather than horizontally.
Neither needs to be flown at a constant net altitude...
Two planes performing a rolling scissors could do it in a vertical sense as well, although we'd probably think of it as a descending spiral.
Of course, I could be misinterpreting your description too...
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No, actually that's right on Mtnman.
The maneuver seems to work for any a/c as long as they are 'opposites' in terms of diving and turning capabilities. When I'm in a better diving plane, I can extend in this maneuver by getting farther and farther away while losing less alt than just diving away with her/him still on my tail. In addition, if my aircraft turns worse, I can be pulling hard until the stall buzzer comes on which actually makes me lose more speed. By trying to follow through with the turn, she'll/he'll be gaining more speed if she's/he's a better turner because her/his plane does not have to come near to a stall in order to pull the same AoA. This makes the e/a overshoot eventually.
If I'm a better turner, I can turn tighter when I pull up and leave the e/a behind and by the time I invert for another pull out, she's/he's lagging behind and I can engage in another maneuver.
However, I've never tried it yet on human players so I wouldn't know if it truly works all the time.
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I also want to throw out a personal thank you to bald, sax, mtnman I have learned sooo much and will put these tactics into practice in the air being a Green pilot myself (Spits for now) great information here for anybody that wants to really get into the game and become a good pilot.
Kudos for all! ^_^
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sweet was looking for this for a friend, most helpful f4u post I've been able to find.
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Don't really know that much about Spits but I will say this much:
When engaging a Hog, just be prepared to go through with it right to the end, If it's 1v1 then you will have to have a lot of patience, don't just dive in there due to frustration, altitude plays a big part too, A spit 14 will Energy fight the Hog to death, you know the Hog will dive and extend etc, Fine let him do that, But you have to make him want to come back up again, He will if you can trick him well enough. I'd be more worried taking on a 38 If I was in a spit rather than a Hog.
Just my 2 cents mind.
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I'd like to say something about this thread in BaldE's defense, although that may not be a very popular thought...I'm still a nice guy, and open to help, so don't write me off cuz I'm looking at this thread cross-ways of the hog pilots.
I read through this whole thread, and granted, it has been a lot of help to understand the hog-pilot mind, but I'm still thinking back to my encounters with hogs in my normal spit16 ride...cuz I like it...and I'm not sure I have really picked up on very many extra "how to's" for in my Spit...I mean, we all should know very well now (after reading this, I mean) what the hog pilot is likely to do...and that helps a lot...but what other options do I have besides dragging him down to the deck and killing his E, especially if a good hog pilot is not going to bite that bait?
I can honestly say I've RARELY been beaten by a hog at low/slow/turn fighting on the deck...been picked a buzillion times while doing it, but RARELY been actually beaten during the fight... I almost ALWAYS get beaten by hogs while up in the air anywhere above 1k alt, so I have been reading and reading, and don't see a lot of "other" ideas...where are the ace Spit pilots out there? Nothing personal (AT ALL) here, but asking a hog pilot how to beat a hog is like Delilah asking Samson the secret to his strength...DUH! (I know you guys are actually being helpful, seriously, but it's kinda like asking the wrong person for help, dontcha think?)
It isnt' that I'm a good pilot, kinda just a utility player / handyman (can fly, gv, bomb, etc.)... so I tend to lose patience in a hog fight, I chase them around, do lots of stupid things... I lose sight of them after merge, just as Sax said, (won't be so naive next time).
But somebody talk to me about my guns, I got 20mm's! When do I use those potato chunkers to gain advantage over the 50cal's?
What about that fast turn rate at slower speed (cuz we're already turning) right after the merge...can't I use that to gain a quick gun solution after the hog goes by and take a snapshot??
What about a scissor fight?
What about "hiding" behind/below when he's at higher alt cuz he has that big plate behind his head and I don't?
What about...well...I certainly don't know the answers to my questions, but I seem to have a lot of them!
I would appreciate some real spit-focused advice here!!!
And in all fairness, there may NOT be a good way to fight a hog in a spit...that's another logical possibility here...the spit may simply be outclassed by the hog's size/strength/advantages...but I've watched SHawk and others kill hog after hog (after pony after LA after typhy) in his Spit9...and at altitude to boot!
:salute to all who've posted
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But somebody talk to me about my guns, I got 20mm's! When do I use those potato chunkers to gain advantage over the 50cal's?
Any time you have a guns solution. The 20mm Hispano has ballistics nearly on par with your two Brownings, so if you can hit with the .50s, the 20mm should hit with minimal adjustment
What about that fast turn rate at slower speed (cuz we're already turning) right after the merge...can't I use that to gain a quick gun solution after the hog goes by and take a snapshot??
A lot depends on speed and who you're fighting. First, initial merge is unlikely to occur at low speed. Or at least at a speed at which the Spit takes over with the advantage in cornering ability (beware the Hog's cornering ability down to speeds of around 200-250mph. Her instantaneous turn is insane in that range, especially with one or two notches of flaps). An experienced Hog is unlikely to give you this opportunity as he won't be staying level, but probably going up instead. I would not use a flat turn against ANY opponent after merge to try and pick up a shot. You're going to kill a lot of E for very little gain, as you're very unlikely to have a shot before your opponent extends out of range. A vertical maneuver like the Immelmann, or extending vertically for a wingover would be better.
What about a scissor fight?
A scissors fight is all a contest of "Who can get slower faster" so falls in with the general strategy of bleeding the Hog out of E previously mentioned. The idea is that you're pressuring/baiting the Hog into blowing his E to get a snapshot, which can be good for you. However a wary Corsair is unlikely to bite.
What about "hiding" behind/below when he's at higher alt cuz he has that big plate behind his head and I don't?
Again, a lot depends on your opponent and how well he maintains his SA. An experienced Hog pilot knows to keep an eye out in his 6 Low, and will rock periodically to make sure no one's back there.
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...so I tend to lose patience in a hog fight, I chase them around, do lots of stupid things... I lose sight of them after merge, just as Sax said, (won't be so naive next time).
This is a big thing- IMO lack of patience will get you killed, especially when dealing with a difficult situation. For me, the most difficult planes to beat are the Hurri's and Zeke's. It's not that I see them as much of a threat, I don't. But since my goal is to shoot them down before I leave, problems can arise. With my speed they can't get away, nor can they catch me. In order for them to kill me in a "fair 1v1" I feel I need to to hand the kill to them (get greedy, lose patience). There's really no reason they should be able to do anything but defend themselves otherwise. But to kill them I need to get inside their defensive range, where they can pull guns on me in almost any situation. My "normal" instinct is to turn quickly and tightly to get a quick early kill, but with those two planes that doesn't work well for me. I need to patiently set up a me higher/faster, them lower/slower situation, and then convince them to come nose up at me for a rope (they lose patience/get frustrated) so I can drop on them when they're too slow to be able to dodge or keep guns on me. I patiently set up a situation where they're helpless, and I'm not. This is not a quick fight for me- it generally takes me several minutes (5-7?) to do this, so I need "privacy". I've even been able to take a "four 14k Hurri's vs one (me in a 10K F4U)" situation and turn it into me landing all 4 kills, but it took lots of patience and a full tank of gas. I obviously needed to extend/drag/equalize E states and then build an E advantage several times. The first three Hurri's were killed above 8K, the last on the deck as he decided he had an appointment he'd forgotten about. While it surely wasn't an in-your-face tight-turning on-the-deck fight it will last as one of my most memorable/fun/fulfilling fights. It was a long, active fight with at least one of them always within 2.5K. The key was patience on my part. And having enough height/speed to give myself the options I needed. And again, they couldn't leave without my permission, nor catch me.
What about "hiding" behind/below when he's at higher alt cuz he has that big plate behind his head and I don't?
Every time I see this comment, I think to myself "Oh yea, I guess I do have a blindish spot there...) In reality, with my views set-up and my constant paranoia of being snuck up on, good luck surprising me there. It's the most obvious spot you'll try to catch me from, so it's high on my list of priorities to monitor... Even if this does work, you're beating the pilot, not the plane.
What about...well...I certainly don't know the answers to my questions, but I seem to have a lot of them!
I would appreciate some real spit-focused advice here!!!
Spit-focused... All the planes (fighters)in the set fly the same manuevers. They just fly them at different speeds, sizes, etc... And they need to be flown differently versus different opponents, in different conditions (fighting a high/fast spit is different than a low/slow spit, and me in a low/slow F4U is different than me in a high/fast F4U). I'll use options against a fast spit I'd never dream of against a slow spit, and vice versa. Giving you a spit-specific method to kill an F4U is difficult at best.
Personally I find most F4U's to be easy kills, but that's probably due to the fact I'm quick to recognize situations where I can capitolize on a perceived weakness on thier part. As a trainer I'm used to watching my "students" closely, and watching for slight mistakes (in ACM, or in timing, or SA, or throttle/flap management, or whatever...) they make so we can correct them. In the MA I see those same mistakes made (and I'm watching for them). I react to those perceived mistakes quickly/automatically, which normally works well, but actually gets me in trouble if I mis-interpret what I see against a skilled pilot.
In most general terms- A slower plane will not be able to pin down and dictate fight conditions to a faster plane. If a slower plane can get a faster plane slow enough, it can dictate fight conditions for a temporary period (until the fast plane regains speed). If the slower plane loses control of the fight before he gets his kill, he's in trouble again. The F4U is faster than the spit. To really dominate the fight the spit needs to get the F4U slow, but still have plenty of speed himself. The natural progression of fighter planes has been to make them faster. There's a reason for that. The Spit vs F4U issue is similar to any plane trying to defeat a faster plane. At an extreme, lets take a Zeke/F4U fight and replace the planes with an F4U and an ME262. How does the slow plane beat the faster?
IMO, it comes down to pilot decisions/mistakes. But whether those decisions are mistakes or not depends on plane types and specific conditions. Losing patience and making bad decisions won't help you beat the planes you have trouble with. Telling you to use a certain aspect of the spit to defeat the F4U is like telling you to dance the waltz by starting with their left foot. What comes next?
IMO, AH fighter combat is like partner dancing without a pre-planned choreography- you'd better pay attention to your partner and what's around you, or you'll look like a fool.
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This is a GREAT thread a very big :salute to all who have contributed to it.
I'm mainly a P38 driver so I have learnt a great deal from these excellent write ups....(you know cause depending on the match-up the 38 can be in the spit's or Hog's shoes :D)
This thread, in crystal clarity, demonstrates why in the real world, an aircraft's speed was considered one of, if not the most, important attribute.
:salute :salute :salute