Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: covega on June 04, 2000, 10:18:00 PM
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Ya know, enough is enough. The B-17 is paper and a lot of buf guys are really getting fed up with being blown to bits with one or two shots. We see lots of hits on the enemy fighter (yeh, we're doing the job of 8 guys at once) but little damage and then, wham! one or two hits from the fighter and the buf blows up. Something wrong with that picture.
Of course that is if the wings don't pull off in the meantime because they do, with regularity, with hardly any G force or overspeed.
Something is also wrong when one fighter can shoot down 4 or 5 bufs, in a group, on one sortie.
If plans are to keep the game designed to simply use the buf as a target drone for the fighters, then let's admit it and the buf guys can make a decision about what to do next.
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I've never killed a BUFF with 1 or 2 shots. I've never heard anybody say they killed a BUFF with 1 or 2 shots.
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thats bogus and you know it.
I've landed so many damaged buffs its sick from being hit by more than a few rounds.
as for attacking buffs, even w an f4u1c it takes a solid stream of hits to knock out somthing vital.
I don't fear fighters that crawl up dead 6 or even go head on.
I fear the ones that never even give you a glimpse of a gun solusion and remove a vital component with a deadly accurate firing solution.
buffs were paper last version, this version they are tough. perfectly balanced to allow damaged aircraft to survive and return home and kill fighters in the process.
from flying against and fighting in bombers I feel that the balance is excellent.
I dont want some unrealistically armoured flying panzer ackwagon cruising around with impunity with the only a/c able to destroy it are 190 and f4u1c (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
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I don't think there is a problem with the bombers anymore. The guns are plenty leathal and I rarely get killed in bombers unless attacked by a F4u-1c or more than 1 fighter at a time.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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If pilots knows his job and has big bellybutton cannons plus this rangefinder borrowed from aliens... it makes quite bad job.
But you buffers must remember one thing, your guns are also more lethal than real ones. (lone buffs were really just a breakfast...)
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IMO, buffs are really well modelled. No experience with real ones, but they are only easy kills if correctly approached, and solidly shot.
Cheers.
Pepino
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I've come from approaches from hi 2 o c and lit a 17 up like a xmas tree, first concentrating on nose and then walking it down to the tail and the bugger still stays up. And that with 2*13 +2*20 +2*30mm. I say they're pretty resilient.
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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once killed (it went in a great fireball) a B-17 with 10 shells --- 30mm that is!
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~Kirin~
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/kirin.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/home.htm)
"Ich bin immer nur die Messerschmitt 109 geflogen, aller Varianten angefangen von der G-6 bis hin zur K-14. Die Gustav war weitaus kraftvoller als die Friedrich, und hinzu kam die weitaus schwerere Bewaffnung. Die G-10 zum Beispiel hatte eine 30 mm Kanone mit absolut zerstörerirscher Wirkung. Sie war auch die schnellste aller G-Serien, mit einer exzellenten Steigrate, und war in sämtlichen Flugbereichen ausgezeichnet zu fliegen. Ich fühlte mich in meiner 'Beule' immer zuhause und Herr über alle Situationen."
Hauptmann Erich Hartmann, Gruppenkommandeur, I./JG 52, Russische Front, 1945
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You have to be kidding... errr you are kidding aren't you??
As it is right now, bombers are already flying tanks.
I don't know about other players, but if I'm flying a P-51 (which I usually do) I don't even *think* about attacking bombers, because I will definitely die before they do.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Are you people for real?
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covega.
Have you tried to take one down?
Buffs are damn tough. And their guns are deadly. Sometimes they go down quickly but that is usually a one set of eyes problem.
Personly I have lots of missions were I killed or discouraged enemy interceptors and reterned to base damamged. The only surefire exception is when I give up the freedom to manuver. If I am in formation my chances go way down becasuse my gunner frame rates plummet and I cant turn away from a con to force him to chase me..
But its dam fun to fly formation ....
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"Stupids are like flies. they are everywere, but are easy to kill"
RAM
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I've been taking up FB-26's from bases we've had our fighter hangars blown out at. I take alot of damage. I also inflict alot. ALOT. LAst night at A2 I took out an F4U and a P-38 while losing an engine, stabilizer and aileron. And I landed it to boot. No weakness in dogfighting with a B26 and I've not noticed ANY paper B-17's. The only ones that die easy are those on the final run or asleep behind the stick.
Covega if you saunter on in and lay down an accusatory and whiney post like you did you will either get folks backing you up with like posts offering like observations or posts from others offering thier opinion on what THEY have seen and experience. And so far they're all seeing somehting you are not.
So far I'd say it looks like you were on crack when you wrote that post.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 06-05-2000).]
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Originally posted by covega:
Are you people for real?
LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The last time I checked I was for real. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Keep in mind that there are ALOT of very good sim pilots here. They know how to do it and do it very well they do.
Also keep in mind that although you hear only one or two pings, you are probably getting pasted. The game does not convert every hit your aircraft takes into a ping sound that you can hear.
I am not sure how long you have played AH, but the toughness of BUFF's is WAY up from what it used to be. This is the piont of reference for many of the above players and the reason for the response you have gotten.
Good Luck! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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The only person who can accurately judge how man hits it takes is the guy doing the shooting.
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Buffs are good. Last tour my K/D was amazing in buffs. 111 kills to only 50 deaths. They are not paper now, in beta they where paper, here they are cardboard, which is better than paper. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Just so everyone knows, "covega" in AH is callsign "vega" in WB, the CO of the DHBG. He is well known there & a very competent pilot, virtual & RL, (heavies if memory serves).
However, I gotta disagree with ya vega. I am not a bad pilot myself and them thar buffs fer shore ain't paper no more. Screw up yore ACM in a fighter and you are dead meat! I don't dare attack an AH buff alone no more.
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Apache
The Blue Knights
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When I'm flying a bomber I have no doubts that I can down any single fighter (except maybe the F4u-1c) 90% of the time that I'm attacked. A fighter attacking from your dead 6 is almost as easy to kill as a c47.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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hmm - I don't think that we have paper buffs here but I really think that even a single fighter has a good chance to down a single buff if the fighter pilot is very patient and knows his tactis.
I started to attack bombers even in a single 20mm 109G10. Just climb 2k above and in front of him then do a high speed, high angle, high side attack. This only gets you a firing window of a couple of seconds and you won't down it in a single pass. But if you do this several times with slight variations in angle you will wear it down sooner or later. The bomber gunner will have a much harder time to hit you than you to hit him. You may get some pings during the passes but only very short burts and mostly non-lethal damage.
I remember a fight versus a B17 where it wounded me on the first pass. I kept repeating my attacks even with wound effects until I finally got him. 5 sec after the kill message my pilot died from his wounds... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) If you got the patience to do 5 or 6 passes you will have a good success on bombers.
Another tactic is to come from straight above... gives you a wider firing window with the possibility of a one pass kill - but easier for the gunner and long recovery from 90° dive...
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ive got to say B17s are easy to kill if the gunner isnt good..if he can shoot well you have a problem (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
you as a fighter will learn the best approach through trial and error and eventually you can take them properly but still if the gunner is good you WILL get hit
what i personally think would make it more fun would be to allow b17s to be tougher if you MUST but if you do you MUST reduce the power of the guns..this will result only in longer fights but the expense of ammo will be high so 1 fighter will not be able to kill 4 bombers unless highly skilled shot
or knows where to hit em (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
ive flown both buffs and all fighters and IMHO the balance is good.but if players complain my solution is detailed above (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Buffs are very easy to blow up with the 1C, do it all the time! As for other A/C, you must be patient and get the right angle or the human-armed gunner will nail you.
In the F4U-1C, just start firing at D1.5 and walk it in to D1.0, then break off, you'll see confetti in no time at all.
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Film Film Film gimme some film of these paper buffs! People have all kinds of opinions, but film is at least a little bit objective.
My poor gunnery (i.e. my crappy joystick) kills me more than a "paper buff". I really think if I could put more hits on attackers I would die less.
Fury
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<chuckle> Is Ripsnort running around putting "F4U-1C" in every thread today?
If a patient and proper attack is made (high 1oc directly onto left wing) even a 202 will get it in one pass. If an impatient attack is made, or I miss, I'm more often than not dead (yes even in F4U-1C).
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Fatty
Fat Drunk Bastards (http://fdb.50megs.com)
"Never before in the field of human conflict was so little owed to so few that weighed and drank so much."
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I mostly fly buffs and I'm sure something has changed with the start of this tour... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Either that or my shooting has suddenly dropped!
The only plane I worry about is the F4UC (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) But I have flown that plane against B17s and I was surprised that I saw two sprite hits (about 10 shots fired) and I blew his wing off.
The only thing now is that it's getting back to Beta days where the buffs are flying higher because the fighters are now mostly over 30 - 35k. I started to go 25k (usually 8 - 16k) max but I am tempted to go higher than 25k now... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Regards
'Nexx'
[This message has been edited by Replicant (edited 06-06-2000).]
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I tested Ripsnorts 1.5K - 1.0K tactic, but did it at 900. A full load of F4UC ammo (minus the misses at that great distance) caught 2 engines on fire, then it flew away. And yes I have film.
However, I took a shot with a 190 at another, distance 300 and the Buff vaporized with a 1 sec burst. I pulled the trigger..Boom. Maybe it should, hell i don't know.
I do know a B17 is absolutley DEAD in AH if 2 fighters attack one working together. You simply can't get hit from 3 AND 9 Oclock high and defend two fighters that slice down, holding their shots to 400 like they should. (Also, turrets seem really slow when tracking bandits in this situation!)
Buffs need more gunners, cuz they are damn near defensless. I prefer they be human, but unclear of the logistics in coding that.
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I spent this morning hunting buffs out of A35 in a 205. Mixed results actually, if my approach was anything less than perfect I died. If my approach was perfect, & he was steady in the crosshairs at 300 -400 he died.
Every kill took from 100 to 150 Cannon rounds (not counting MG rounds) in the C.205.
Too easy? Not in my eyes!
If anything the buffs defensive guns reach too far. (was takeing pings out to 1.3/1.4 pretty regular).
I've also got a fair amount of time up buffing myself lately. I've died to enemy guns precisely once. He was a F4u-c with a spit helping. I do seem to manage to overstress my wings a lot in the B17, impatient I guess.
Things are just fine, leave em alone!
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After some fights with loser111 in a B17 I have to readjust my sayings:
Buffs, especially B17 can defend themselfs quite well against 1 fighter even without additional gunner. On treetop alt, like loser111 did it all the time, "right-from-the-top" attacks are very difficult to perform. Especially in a 109 at high speed it's dangerous because pull-out has to performed quickly to avoid augering. And this bugger was shooting good! I couldn't finish him off with side-passes but ate some lead. Only a suicide HO prevented him from dropping on HQ. So if a buff driver has some aim and knows the fighter tactics it gets very hard for a lonely attacker. And time is always on the buffers side because you want to prevent him from doing something - he got all the time in the world; this leads to risky attacks which mostly end in a shot-up fighter and a slightly damaged buff.
This is all said for the lightly armed 109, which is not a buff killer per se, with cannon-hogs it's a different thing. Grrr.. I hate those C-Hogs!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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~Kirin~
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/kirin.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/home.htm)
"Ich bin immer nur die Messerschmitt 109 geflogen, aller Varianten angefangen von der G-6 bis hin zur K-14. Die Gustav war weitaus kraftvoller als die Friedrich, und hinzu kam die weitaus schwerere Bewaffnung. Die G-10 zum Beispiel hatte eine 30 mm Kanone mit absolut zerstörerirscher Wirkung. Sie war auch die schnellste aller G-Serien, mit einer exzellenten Steigrate, und war in sämtlichen Flugbereichen ausgezeichnet zu fliegen. Ich fühlte mich in meiner 'Beule' immer zuhause und Herr über alle Situationen."
Hauptmann Erich Hartmann, Gruppenkommandeur, I./JG 52, Russische Front, 1945
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I agree. Although I've asked for the wing-ripping auto-trim bug to be fixed, I think the buff/fighter balance is very good right now.
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IMO everything depends on the attacking fighter. If the fighter pilot is really experienced he can drop a buff in nearly any fighter a/c (maybe the C202 as an exception). But if you got a newbie going for the buffs 6 at a slow closure rate it will be just a snack for the tail gunner. Buffs arent made of paper. I've killed heaps of buffs and I know that they dont go down easily even if you hit the tail. I've seen a wing full of 20mm pings and still the guy only lost an aileron and 1 engine. I'd say that the odds of a lone buff surviving a lone fighter attack is quite good because of the lethality of the guns but it wont stand a chance against a good fighter pilot. That's my opinion. Someone prove me wrong.
Dusk
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I think buffs are about right - I get shot down regularly by single fighters but that's because my gunnery is poor and I can't shoot down buffs in a fighter because .. my gunnery is poor. The common denominator in this discussion is how good the pilot/gunner is and I think there are a lot of damn good fighter pilots out there who know how to knock down a buff. I know that if I'm in a buff and see a pilot climbing slowly up to my 6 I think "newbie .. lunch" and that if I'm in the same buff and see someone climb up next to me at 3k distance and 3/9 o'clock I'm dead 90% of the time.
I think we just have a lot of good pilots here Covega.