Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MANDOBLE on March 13, 2000, 07:49:00 AM
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As far as I know, difference between Hispanos
and Mg151/20 is not as noticeable as it seems
to be in AH.
Mg151/20:
fire rate: about 750 rounds per minute.
muzzle-vel: about 800 m/s.
projectile weigh: average of 92 - 110 grams.
Gun Weigh: 41.5 kg
Hispano Mk-II:
fire rate: about 600 rounds per minute.
muzzle-vel: about 860 m/s.
projectile weigh: average of 130 grams.
Gun Weigh: 50 kg
Hispano Mk-V:
fire rate: about 750 rounds per minute.
muzzle-vel: about 840 m/s.
projectile weigh: average of 130 grams.
Gun Weigh: 42 kg
In AH, Mg151/20 seems to have noticeable
slower firing rate than any Hispano. And
Mg151/20 proyectiles seems to drop much
earlier (same convergence).
Scoring from medium/long ranges with Hispanos
is really easy and efective in AH. In the
other hand, scoring at those ranges with
Mg151/20 is a hell.
IMHO The differences between both guns should
not be so evident (talking about aiming and
hiting). Anyway, it is true that the punch of
hispanos is greater than Mg151/20.
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Germans lost, how could they have anything even closely matched with allies? :>
..not to talk about anything being more advanced than allies had...
There must be some sort of favoring for allies...
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I read somewhere that the US Navy stated that the 151 was their prefered weapon. They never saw AH I guess. I am supprised too. There is no comparison between the 2 guns in the game, but your numbers would indicate quite similar weapons. Apperently the Germans were quite satisfied by the 151, but if they had gone hunting buffs in a typhoon they would have realised the error in thier ways...I would say that the biggest advantage a plane can have in AH is the mk2 Hisp. cannon.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by Pongo:
I read somewhere that the US Navy stated that the 151 was their prefered weapon.
I read the same refered to 151/20. And even more important, LW RL pilots were very confident with this weapon, cosidering it as a very accurate gun.
IMHO, or Mg151/20 is undermodeled, or Hispanos are overmodeled, or both. Anyway my data could be wrong. More data and more information sources would be appreciated to be able do some physics and figure out whether 190A8 pilots are flying just brick lauchers instead interceptors or not.
Flying Corsair I've been able to score and get kills with snapshots at even 900 yards.
In the same conditions with 190A8 (4x20), 500 yards hit is a triumph.
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Hmmmm... Last time I flew AH I fired ShVAKs... They seemed to be pretty effective. No convergence, no hassle - aim and fire (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
But seriously (and trying to keep away from sand-filled ping-pong balls (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)):
Your stats show that Hispano fired ~30% heavier round at ~5% higher muzzle velocity with the same x-section - 20mm - and (likely) similar aerodynamics. It was bound to fly farther and hit harder. Simple physics.
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
It was bound to fly farther and hit harder. Simple physics.
Agree with that, but:
1 - So farther? so more tense shots?
2 - Anyway Hispanos should have less or equal rate of fire than 151/20.
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do remember that 151's on 190 was synched to fire thought the propeller ( at least two in the wing roots ) therefore their ROF would be slower...
This horse has been beaten to death in every sim i've ever platyed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
If nothing makes you happier then burning 109 - come and join us - we're looking for few good men
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Well, a single hispano shell should have quite more power than MG 151 shell, IMO. The kinetic energy is some 50% more in favor of hispano, by the numbers Mandoble gave.
It is amazing how it affects the arena though. Right now vast majority of Spits and cannon Hogs in arena follow the Santa way: HO HO HO.
I honestly can't remember that I have seen any of those planes actually avoid HO.
But that will change with the introduction of pair of MK 103s (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
However, I believe the best qualities of MG 151 (compact, reliable, can be synchronized, better ammo fuzing mechanism) are not that important in this sim as they were in real life. Also, wasn't MG 151 ammunition (M geschoss etc.) more advanced than hispano ammunition ?
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 03-13-2000).]
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In AH, the 151/20 has a rof of 700 rpm, the Hispano Mk II 600 rpm. Synchronized weapons are setup to deliver a 15% lower rof or something like that.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
"If it's stupid but works, it's not stupid."
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Hristo do you know how many Fw 190's carried the MK 103?
THREE! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If we want MK 103's let's get the Do 335 MUUUUUUUUUAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAH A!
Actually if we get some T-34's I'd like an Hs 129 also!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-13-2000).]
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Best come over to Warbirds. The differences between Mine shells and APHE have finally been modeled.
Pthhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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So what are the differences?
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
No sniveling!
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Well, as Gazoo once said,
AP goes Zing!
HE goes boom!
How about a description of your Gunnery/ damage model Pyro?
And while I've got your attention will any changes be made to those Icons? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Funked, I had Me 410 and He 219 in mind.
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Hristo, agree with you. mk103 was noticeably slower than 108 (firing rate), but with a muzzle velocity of more than 850 m/s and a round weight of 330 grams it is just an OVNI killer. The main problem is the weight of the gun, exceeding the mk108 in more than 80kg.
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But it would be nice to see it in action in the Arena.
Me 410 and He 219 will be outclassed by most single engined fighters in AH.
Still, we can test the theory if guns are more important than plane performance in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Assuming that the both the Mk II and MG151 are firing the same ammo mix, and have approximately the same explosive to projectile weight ratio, and a one second burst (or any total time of fire).
The MG151 has approximately 78% of the delivered energy (ie Lethality) of the Hispano MkII.
The Hispano MkV has about 96% of the lethality of the MkII.
If your really interested, I can get into the equations and numbers.
Which of the planes in Aces High even have the Hispano MKV ?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/pics/yak3.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-14-2000).]
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The book Fighter Combat (Shaw) describes lethality as having its base on the 30cal MG of WW1. Which has a lethality of 1:
A chart on page 6 shows lethality as it applies here:
- Gun - Year - ROF - Lethality
- 30cal M2 - 1929 - 1200 - 1.7
- 50cal M2 - 1933 - 800 - 6.4
- 20mm M2 - 1941 - 650 - 15.9
- 20mm M3 - 1944 - 800 - 18.2
- 37mm M4 - 1941 - 134 - 7.2
- 20mm M61 - 1957 - 6000 - 144.8 (For comparison)
To get total lethality you would add the lethality of all guns firing. So for a 51D lethality would be 38.4 and for a 109G6 using MK103 it would be 10.6.
Shaw stated that lethality was roughly equal between the various designs of different countries. Lethality basically comes down to this formula:
Lethality = (bullet weight) x (rate of fire) x (muzzle velocity) x (10 log -8)
Shaw did say that lethality can be based upon "Time of Flight". In that case the muzzle velocity is adjusted for "Velocity at Impact". The chart describes optimum lethality only.
Shaw also descibes the effect of explosion damage caused by HE cannon rounds, but says the most important factors are those describe above.
As to the issue of "Lethality", we all know and Shaw states, "Regardless of the lethality of a given gun system, it is of little value unless it can be brought to bear on a target"
In my case, bringing the lethality to bear is foremost. Well, lethality is just lethality. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Kind of on the subject anyone know if AH uses "Point Harminization" or "Pattern Harminization"?
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Mino, it depends on how you have your convergence setup.
Point harmonization, is when you setup your convergence for all gunbanks to the same distance. IE setting up all guns on a P-51 to a 300 yard convergence.
Pattern harmonization, is when you setup your convergence for your gunbanks to different distances. IE Setting up the P-51 to 300, 350, 400 convergence.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/pics/yak3.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-14-2000).]
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Verm;
cc
Thanks! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Vermillion wrote:
Which of the planes in Aces High even have the Hispano MKV ?
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None, you'll have to wait for the Tempest to see that.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
No sniveling!