Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Spatula on March 13, 2000, 03:16:00 PM
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Last night i saw a red bar over one of our feild, so i typed .move X to get there. There was no tower so i could see the whole strip. At one end of the strip was a 109 (coloured red) not moving at all, just sitting there. I was the only friendly for miles, the remainder of my country were up north. Now, you dont have to be a genius to figure what hes doing (trying to do). Hes just waiting till someone rolls and will take off behind him and shoot em. Anyways, i guess we can expect this sort of thing happening a bit more when we get vehicles, but at least then i can drive a vehicle as well.
Anyway i got into a 17 (the closest thing we have to a tank) and started to taxi, i wanted to lift off and got to the tail gun and get the SOB. I failed. Then the C47 turned up and we lost the feild.
So i mentioned on the open channel that that was pretty lame, considering the base was undefended. That triggered a torrent of abuse, from the said people (no names mentioned). So i just squelched him and his sqaud - simple.
My point is, and this comes up time and time again, but nothing happens: Parking a whatever on the NME strip IS lame, if thats the only way you can get kills, then perhaps you should go back to quake or whatever.
Please HT introduce something to get around this. If this had happend in real life there would have been some sort of base security come out and arrest/destroy them.
We need vehicles or this sort of thing dis-allowed - its just stupid.
Annoyed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
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Supreme Mega-Overlord Spatula
"...perfect for serving"
=1st Airborne Kitchen Utensil Assualt Group=
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 03-13-2000).]
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Yeah we need closed fields and or vehicles. Respawning over and over is lame, but parking on the respawn point is the nadir of dweebery.
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Only way to get around both problems is to disable all guns while on the ground. Not historically accurate, but would prevent taxiing troop shooters and parked vulchers. Watched this happen w/friendlies this evening (knights), and had to depart the area and leave the arena. Please, HiTech, disable guns on the ground.
GronK
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I am kind of against disabling guns at any time. IMO a gun is a gun and bullets are bullets.
I am also kind of against "killing a field". Although the constant respawn respawn enters extreme fantasy. It is fun to vulch!
One or two B-17's at 35k can kill a field. To prevent this you would need many many targets on the field to be destroyed for the field to be dead. Or you would need hardened targets, which is also a pain IMO.
One method I am sure you take a large frame rate hit. The other method you enjoy yet greater levels of fantasy, like requiring 6x500lbm bombs to blow up a fuel tank.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Mino, we don't need hardened targets or many many targets, we just need a reasonable model of the accuracy of a B-17 at 35k.
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Sounds fine Mino i could have parked my 17 on the runway and spank any parked vehicles/planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now, if this is the case, whats to stop the defenders of a base parking a dozen B-17s on the deck firing at planes capping the feild?
This aint a criticism, just an observation. Which is the lesser of two evils?
There has to be some way of combating this otherwise it will:
- make taking bases a joke OR.
- make taking bases next to impossible.
What a can of worms (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Supreme Mega-Overlord Spatula
"...perfect for serving"
(http://www.spatula.co.nz/aceshigh/spatula_card.jpg)
=1st Airborne Kitchen Utensil Assualt Group=
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 03-13-2000).]
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you ain't gonna park a 17 anywhere and shoot at anything. you'll just die. the gunner positions of both bombers are disabled sitting on the ground. Only the pilot controlled guns on the 26 will fire on the ground.
This was a very big problem right after the gunners were added to the 17, and was the main reason (I believe) that the gunner positions were disabled while on the ground.
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Cave, thats WAS my very point. Guns ARE disabled - i know that - I was suggesting the two possible scenarios. One is disallowed. Which makes it possible for planes (fighters) to sit on the deck firing at people rolling. Which makes it too easy to capture feilds. I never had a Sh*t show.
I was theorising on what mino had said in a previous post.
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Supreme Mega-Overlord Spatula
"...perfect for serving"
(http://www.spatula.co.nz/aceshigh/spatula_card.jpg)
=1st Airborne Kitchen Utensil Assualt Group=
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Hey Spatuala, I was one of the guilty party the other night with the arguments on channel 1. I was not an eye-witness ( I was down around F5 at the time) and when the stuff started to fly on the open channel that involved my friends I probably jumped the gun. For sticking my nose in where I had no idea what was going on I apologize. Hope we can meet on good terms in the future.
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[/B][/QUOTE]
I saw this happening for the first time yesterday, first at f5, a fellowed countryman parked his plane aiming at the spawnpoint. I got on to him for it, just because these things "destroys" the game.
But he logged of without even replying.
It also happend at f14. But then I really got pissed!
To prevent him from firing on the respawn point, I landed my plane and placed myself infront of him. Killshooter!
Lord he got suprised!
I suggest that you guys will do the same if you are witness to this "superduperDweebish" behavior, even if it means that you might lose a "life".
The dweebs are in every country and we need to do anything we can to fight "unworthy" tactics/behavior!
Crabofix, Svenska Kungliga Flygvapnet.
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Launch in a heavy figher (say P-38 with two 1000 bombs) and pickle them as soon as you're on the runway. It'll clear up unsightly bad guys sitting ff the spawn point very well.
-Westy
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Judging from latest statement from Pyro in NEWS section this shouldn't be an issue much longer. It would be much easier for the attackers to disable the planes ability to start, and if they don't the M16 will come and wreck them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
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As soon as half tracks with those 4 50s will appear in AH, the problem of people sitting at respawn point will disappear.
mx22
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Originally posted by Spatula:
Sounds fine Mino <snip>
<snip>
What a can of worms (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Spatula;
Thanks for your reply. Very true, a can of worms! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
OK, let me be more clear. Basically you have what I consider to be "Bent Fixes". This means that an unwanted method of combat enters the game because of the how the game is set up and it had to be fixed.
IE:- B-17's acting as Ack
- Planes landing and vulching at the respawn spot
- Planes on the ground sluicing troopers
- Respawn respawn respawn
This is my opinion only, but consider this. Once you enter into the realm of one fix, you have to enter into the realm of countless reprecussive fixes. In other words every time you fix something you have to fix the problems caused by the fix. Etc etc etc....
As I said before "A gun is a gun and a bullet is a bullet". IMO, the problem of B-17's shooting on the ground is not the problem. The problem is the geometry and layout of bases, respawn and vulching as a result of no ack.
In all fairness to HTC, this is not really a problem, it is intentional game design. Problems are what arise out of players "Eaking Out" and using "Loop Holes" in game design.
Many players conceive respawn respawn respawn to be a problem. Fix that by killing bases and you don't need BUFF guns disabled on the ground. Now what other problems have you created by killing bases?
The arena is small, all the bases could be killed fairly easily by a skilled and co-ordinated attack. Now you have reduced gameplay. IMO you might consider that fix to have broken something else.
If you degrade the performance of BUFF bombsights, you require more bombs to be dropped. This requires more bombers, requiring more players flying bombers. Does having more players in bombers inprove gameplay or have you just broken something else?
Returning to the idea of having all guns disabled on the ground. IMO that would be a pretty good fix. Not that I like the idea of it, but I do believe it would improve game play.
Lastly, I agree with you whole heartedly. I also believe that HTC will generally modify or fix things that detract, in a big way, from gameplay. I am very glad they do.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 03-14-2000).]
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Ground vehicles may well make parked attackers obsolete very soon, but if not I think the power of parkers could be limited by implementing random spawn points within
an airfield.
On the hanger screen, we could have a
radio/toggle button with Runway/Random as
the choices.
The Runway selection is business as usual.
Random selection would start the aircraft at a psuedo-random location within the field area. Automatic takeoff would be disabled. Aircraft orientation could be random, towards the field center, or perhaps better yet- away from the map room.
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Pavel
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Originally posted by Soulyss:
Hey Spatuala, I was one of the guilty party the other night with the arguments on channel 1. I was not an eye-witness ( I was down around F5 at the time) and when the stuff started to fly on the open channel that involved my friends I probably jumped the gun. For sticking my nose in where I had no idea what was going on I apologize. Hope we can meet on good terms in the future.
Soulyss, i don't hold anything personal against you. Its all too easy to take text conversations the wrong way. That is why i just squelched you guys. It aint worth the verbal sparring match that dont solve anything.
Indeed, next time we meet i'll look forward a less heated encounter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thanks,
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Supreme Mega-Overlord Spatula
"...perfect for serving"
(http://www.spatula.co.nz/aceshigh/spatula_card.jpg)
=1st Airborne Kitchen Utensil Assualt Group=
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Mino,
I tend to agree with you on the fix, and counter fix problem. However, The issue of B-17s acting as ack was 'fixed' by disabling their guns on the deck which DID led to new problems ie parked aircraft at respawn point (cause they can do it without fear of destruction by a parked bomber). Now, you'd ague that 'fixing' this would introduce more problems. Maybe so. But at as the state of affairs currently stand it's a bit unbalanced. Currently NME craft (ie fighters) can fire on the ground in offense/defense but only have guns in the front, whereas bombers are totally defensless. Sounds a bit unbalanced.
Maybe disabling guns of the fighters while they are on the ground would fix this, or maybe it will open up more worms who knows until it actually happens.
this is not really a problem, it is intentional game design. Problems are what arise out of players "Eaking Out" and using "Loop Holes" in game design.
Do you suggest that players be 'responsible' and this will never happen cause it goes against AH etiquette? Or will HT have to be more heavy handed and force AH etiquette by virtual laws. While there are people willing to bend the AH etiquette then we have to go with HT laying down the law to maintain fairness.
I do like what you said about the actual respawn point. We should be able to pick it, not just always start in the one place. This would get around this problem without any ripple effects.
Also as i suspected, and mentioned in my original post, and others have mentioned that the vehicles WILL fix this problem once and for all, again without any more rules introduced. Lets see that 109 shoot a panzer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I think this debate is about to be rendered irrelevant very soon - lets close this can o' worms (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
To infinity and beyond...
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Supreme Mega-Overlord Spatula
"...perfect for serving"
=1st Airborne Kitchen Utensil Assualt Group=
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 03-14-2000).]
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Spatula;
Do you suggest that players be 'responsible' and this will never happen cause it goes against AH etiquette? Or will HT have to be more heavy handed and force AH etiquette by virtual laws. While there are people willing to bend the AH etiquette then we have to go with HT laying down the law to maintain fairness.
No sorry, I did not even mean to imply this. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I simply meant that as the "Games Is" players will play it. By this I meant "Gaming the Game" and not any form of percieved player etiquette or external player rules for how to play the game properly.
FWIW etiquette to me means only one thing. That is being somewhat polite and avoiding rudness. Other than that, I have no problem what so ever with players "Gaming the Game".
My thoughts more along these lines are of the game design providing the boundaries. This design comes hand in hand with the designers thoughts on how these boundaries will be used and how the game will be played.
Players on the other hand will come up with endless ways to play the game that the designer had not considered when the game was designed. These ideas will force the game designer to make changes providing new boundaries.
Player imposed boundaries drum into countless, and often pointless, comfrontations between players. These human imposed boundaries destroy what I call "community harmony", simply because not everyone agrees they should all be the same thing.
If I don't like what is happening then I appeal to the game designer. But the players after all, are only playing within the boundaries set forth and that is OK in my book.
BTW just because I know of a "Loop Hole" I seldom choose to use it. The object of my play is to relax, enjoy and have fun.
Thanks for your reply!
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Though it won't be historically accurate, I plan on shooting a Panzer with a 109.
30 MM BABY!!!!!!!!
Rockets too.
Oh God, now I have to learn to hit things with the rockets.
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Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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Spatula;
Do you suggest that players be 'responsible' and this will never happen cause it goes against AH etiquette? Or will HT have to be more heavy handed and force AH etiquette by virtual laws. While there are people willing to bend the AH etiquette then we have to go with HT laying down the law to maintain fairness.
No sorry, I did not even mean to imply this. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I simply meant that as the "Games Is" players will play it. By this I meant "Gaming the Game" and not any form of percieved player etiquette or external player rules on how to play the game properly.
FWIW game related etiquette to me only means one thing. That is being somewhat polite and avoiding rudness. Other than that, I have no problem what so ever with players "Gaming the Game".
My thoughts more along these lines are of the game design providing the boundaries. This design comes hand in hand with the designers thoughts on how these boundaries will be used and how the game will be played.
Players on the other hand will come up with endless ways to play the game that the designer had not considered when the game was designed. These ideas will force the game designer to make changes providing new boundaries.
Player imposed boundaries drum into countless, often pointless and hostile, comfrontations between players. These human imposed boundaries destroy what I call "Community Harmony". This is simply because not everyone agrees on what the "Player Imposed Rules" should be and should not be.
If I don't like what is happening then I appeal to the game designer. But the players after all, are only playing within the boundaries set forth and that is OK in my book.
BTW just because I know of a "Loop Hole" I seldom choose to use it. The object of my play is to relax, enjoy and have fun.
Thanks for your reply!
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Minotaur, at the risk of ruining your reputation by approving of your previous posts...I like the way you think. Very straight forward, calm and collected. Outstanding! I wish more players thought more like this. It's refreshing to hear a calm voice in the flames/garbage normally found in threads like this! (I'm guilty of adding to the garbage too...)
Thanx again.
Aaron "Terror" Edwards
[This message has been edited by Terror (edited 03-14-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Terror (edited 03-14-2000).]
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Yes! Soon you will be able to take your panzer and blow the crap out of the parked A-hole. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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"Oh God, now I have to learn to hit things with the rockets."
Eeeyup. Thats why I started a topic asking the "how to's" on rockets in the training forumn. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
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Oh......my GOD AH is not a GAME.
Fifty lashes to anyone who calls AH a game!!!! (http://members.home.net/torqss/torque2.jpg)
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OK Torque...
Time to wake up, get dressed and head off to school. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
LOL
BTW chain me, whip, me beat me just don't let that pitcher of beer go by me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by Spatula:
Which makes it possible for planes (fighters) to sit on the deck firing at people rolling. Which makes it too easy to capture feilds.
IMO dissabling guns is not realistic, even for landed buffs.
Dusiading people to land on enemy fields to obliterate respawning planes is easy:
Any enemy plane landing or ditching near (2 miles radius) to a friendly field is automatically captured if he still on his landed plane for more than 10 seconds..
IMO buff guns should keep enabled on the ground, using buffs for base defense is aceptable. But, those buffs guns should be totally uneffective against paratroops and be enabled 30 secs after the Buff has respawned.