Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: CAP1 on July 03, 2008, 06:59:36 PM
-
might be the wrong place, but i'm here, so i'll take a shot.
i haven't had time to fly online for quite some time. i do fly the battle of britian offline mission a lot. in the hurri1, i've been having mixed success. depending on my attitude, i either kill a few, or i crash. the 109's almost always seem to do a verticle scissors going to the deck when i get on one. it seems as if they cannot turn with the hurri though, as when one gets on my 6, i go into a scissors.....keeping it horizontal, and in 3-4 turns, they overshoot me.
the other night i tried the 109. i don't know which version it is. the problme i have is i cannot seem to out turn or out run the hurris. not only that, but i seem to end up with a minum of 3 on my tail. i did manage to force one to overshoot, and popped him as he did, but i was riding the raggfed edge of stall. when up at alt, i'd keep my speed, disengage, extend out to about 2k, then roll about 120 degrees, pull into and under them, and try to bring her up on their 6. problem is it never seems to work.
what tactics can i use in this fight? this is the first i've really fought in the 109. i can kill most of em in the online arenas, but i don't know how to kill IN them. yet.
thanks guys!(and gals)
<<S>>
-
Definetly do NOT want to try and turn with any Hurri to to begin with becasue they are just too good. The only way I can say were you would go on this one is, is to try and fight the Hurris vertical, keep you your E and you will have a better advantage then trying to turn with them.
<S>
-
Well, at least with the HurriI, they are less likely to swap ends and try to HO everytime you approach within 1K. And I know you know this, just putting it out there, last ditch defense with a HurriI on your six, stick in the floor, you know the, the neg G fuel starvation problem early Hurris and Spits have.
EDIT: I didn't originally notice you were talking about fighting the AI. The airplane I have so far found the AI to be the most difficult to get a clean shot on is the Hurri. The AI will manage to turn around and put his nose on you or at least too close for comfort nearly every time!
-
Remember that the engine on the Hurricane Mk1 (and the Spitfire Mk1 for that matter) cuts out under 0G's. There are two ways you can use this to your advantage;
If there's a Hurricane on your six, DIVE! The engine will cut out and he won't be able to keep with you.
If you can manage to rope the AI, it happens with catastrophic effect, as the engine will cut out and he won't be able to come out of the stall. No guns are needed, I'm 99% sure it's impossible to get out of this type of stall in the Hurricane Mk1 or Spitfire Mk1, they can essentially drop from 30k to the deck with no chance.
-
Remember that the engine on the Hurricane Mk1 (and the Spitfire Mk1 for that matter) cuts out under 0G's. There are two ways you can use this to your advantage;
If there's a Hurricane on your six, DIVE! The engine will cut out and he won't be able to keep with you.
If you can manage to rope the AI, it happens with catastrophic effect, as the engine will cut out and he won't be able to come out of the stall. No guns are needed, I'm 99% sure it's impossible to get out of this type of stall in the Hurricane Mk1 or Spitfire Mk1, they can essentially drop from 30k to the deck with no chance.
There is a way to counter this prob if you're the one the spit (or hurri? never tried it on a hurri)... ;)
-
Its all in the mind.
best way to kill a hurricane or A6m is to be below them and goad them to dive fast on you and hope they are over confident. The other way is endless BnZ style, IE: if you are not going to win this fight nor is the enemy...a draw is acceptable.
-
Well, at least with the HurriI, they are less likely to swap ends and try to HO everytime you approach within 1K. And I know you know this, just putting it out there, last ditch defense with a HurriI on your six, stick in the floor, you know the, the neg G fuel starvation problem early Hurris and Spits have.
EDIT: I didn't originally notice you were talking about fighting the AI. The airplane I have so far found the AI to be the most difficult to get a clean shot on is the Hurri. The AI will manage to turn around and put his nose on you or at least too close for comfort nearly every time!
yep, that he does.......and i tried to simply nose over when i was saddled up....they followed me with ease..........gonna keep tryin though.
-
I haven't had Hurris stall out on me like the Spit1 does, you can see the spit1 go into it.
Hurri1s aern't as bad as the Spit1 in stalls. out of the 1000 times I pulled spit1s into the stall, 999 times I have crashed.
-
Remember that the engine on the Hurricane Mk1 (and the Spitfire Mk1 for that matter) cuts out under 0G's. There are two ways you can use this to your advantage;
If there's a Hurricane on your six, DIVE! The engine will cut out and he won't be able to keep with you.
If you can manage to rope the AI, it happens with catastrophic effect, as the engine will cut out and he won't be able to come out of the stall. No guns are needed, I'm 99% sure it's impossible to get out of this type of stall in the Hurricane Mk1 or Spitfire Mk1, they can essentially drop from 30k to the deck with no chance.
Incorrect, we can try it anytime you want. My Spit 1/Hurr. 1 engine will NOT cut out in a dive. As for the 2nd paragraph, only a 2 weeker would go vertical to the point of stall.
-
Incorrect, we can try it anytime you want. My Spit 1/Hurr. 1 engine will NOT cut out in a dive. As for the 2nd paragraph, only a 2 weeker would go vertical to the point of stall.
i think what he was trying to say was that if he simply noses over suddenly, and you follow, then your engine will cut out till you get positive pressure on the fuel system again. this i think will happen during the course of the dive......
-
i think what he was trying to say was that if he simply noses over suddenly, and you follow, then your engine will cut out till you get positive pressure on the fuel system again. this i think will happen during the course of the dive......
depending on how you dive. ;)
-
depending on how you dive. ;)
I know most who fly the Hurri/Spit Mk1 aileron roll so their pulling positive G's in the dive (starting a split-s basically), but doesn't that slow your ability to respond to the dive?
As for the 2nd paragraph, only a 2 weeker would go vertical to the point of stall.
I've been surprised by the people that fall for ropes many times before.
-
I know most who fly the Hurri/Spit Mk1 aileron roll so their pulling positive G's in the dive (starting a split-s basically), but doesn't that slow your ability to respond to the dive?
I'll dive inverted and keep up with you. It worked for the RAF in WWII, it works in here.
-
I'll dive inverted and keep up with you. It worked for the RAF in WWII, it works in here.
I have no doubt that an inverted spitfire will keep up with a right-side-up 109 in a dive, my point is the act of inverting...
Could the 109 stick not go into a negative-G dive, then a positive G climb, repeating this, using the fact that he does not have to use his ailerons to his advantage?
I'd like to experiment with this, unfortunately I cannot log in right now. Will you be on later tonight?
-
I'll dive inverted and keep up with you. It worked for the RAF in WWII, it works in here.
actually, it didn't work that well, did it? if the enemy can simply push his nose over, and you have to roll to dive, that gives a 1-3 second headstart.
i'm NOT trying to argue with ya, just trying to understand how it works, that's all. i've only flown the spit/hurri 1's offline. never flew the 109 till recently,,and that offline too
<<S>>
-
Most see a Spit1 and think "Easy kill". Before the arena split, I'd land 4-5 kill runs. What a lot of folks don't realize is the "stall" is often used against my con. I am often on their six because of it (either by forcing the stall or by sliding (using rudder) behind them. I'll see them (regardless of con) waggling trying to find me. They find themselves in the tower.
I'm far from the best, but one of the very few that will roll a Spit 1 in the LWA's to date. A lot of people "claim to", but that is about it. Some do it.
I've never had a problem diving inverted. The roll rate on the 109 is a wash IMO.
-
put ten AI 109E vs ten AI spit mkI and you'll find large variations in outcome with the spitfires often losing out through poor AI gunnery and weaker snapshots. the spit mkI is ultimately more challenging to fly than either the hurricane mkI or the 109e in all aspects of aceshigh. The success of someone like karaya, as he states in his first sentace, is down predominantly to the enemy making a poor risk assesment of the mkI spitfire flown by someone who knows it perfectly.
-
I cannot for the life of me understand why so many will see a highly maneuverable plane, that is very likely being flown by an ace, and think "easy kill", no matter how obsolete the ride supposedly is.
-
Most see a Spit1 and think "Easy kill". Before the arena split, I'd land 4-5 kill runs. What a lot of folks don't realize is the "stall" is often used against my con. I am often on their six because of it (either by forcing the stall or by sliding (using rudder) behind them. I'll see them (regardless of con) waggling trying to find me. They find themselves in the tower.
I'm far from the best, but one of the very few that will roll a Spit 1 in the LWA's to date. A lot of people "claim to", but that is about it. Some do it.
I've never had a problem diving inverted. The roll rate on the 109 is a wash IMO.
just for the record.....i've learned the hard way to never vies anything as an easy kill.
hell......i was in a spit9, and had 1duke1 hand my arse back to me. he was in a frigin p40. i went into that fight seeing a p40, and a super easy kill. 2 minutes later, i'm wondering how the hell i ended up in the tower :O
that was the last time i looked at anythign that way. i go in now assuming it's gonna be a hard fought victory....or death......
<<S>>
-
put ten AI 109E vs ten AI spit mkI and you'll find large variations in outcome with the spitfires often losing out through poor AI gunnery and weaker snapshots. the spit mkI is ultimately more challenging to fly than either the hurricane mkI or the 109e in all aspects of aceshigh. The success of someone like karaya, as he states in his first sentace, is down predominantly to the enemy making a poor risk assesment of the mkI spitfire flown by someone who knows it perfectly.
flying the planes in the mentioned offline mission....i do great in the hurri1. i do kinda sorta ok in the spit1. i suck bellybutton in the 109. that's why i'm trying to pick up tips on it in here. if the AI kills me.....or if i only barely manage to survive the AI, there isn't any way i'm gonna survive in the 109 long enough to learn manuevers in it in the MA's.
<<S>>
-
I cannot for the life of me understand why so many will see a highly maneuverable plane, that is very likely being flown by an ace, and think "easy kill", no matter how obsolete the ride supposedly is.
i think they figure since the spit1 has no cannons/?
-
i think they figure since the spit1 has no cannons/?
Actually it is "overconfidence times 1000". I mostly fly the Ki-61 which has been deemed a "POS" by this very BBS. If I got $100 everytime an La7, Niki, Spit 8-16, Pony, or any "good ride" turned in front of me, I'd be a Millionaire. They see the "Ki61 and it's either cockiness or "hmm he's in a slow ride so I can do this" turn in front of me as I'm doing 350-400mph. I shoot them down and they must realize they screwed up royally.
Most claim to be flying the Tony, in fact, most don't, they roll one every now and then and consider themselves experts. I've been toting the 61 for 6 years. It is dire need of fixing as the AH version is grossly incorrect. In WWII the Tony turned with FM2's. In here, it's not even close. Yet, I'm still able to turn with most rides in the Arena (I'm sure someone will have to disagree with this statement) and if given the altitude, I can run down "L337 rides".
It's not really the lack of cannons. Gimme a 6 shot while I in a Spit 1, and those 8 303's will saw your wing off within 2 seconds. I've said it often: "Just because you roll a cannon laden aircraft, it doesn't make you accurate." I'm 11-0 ho'ing 110G's in the Spit 1. They start shooting at 1.5k seeing my Spit icon, thinking I'm a spixteen. Mensa's film of our mock duel should show of what the Spit 1 is capable of.
But I love the Tony. It's probably what I'm known for flying the most and I enjoy pushing it to the limits. I've run RG in a 205 completely out of ammo in a turnfight that lasted about 7-8 minutes, while OTD. Most will think I'm bragging, I'm not, merely saying if someone as crappy as me can do it, anyone should be able too. Most who know me in game, know I rarely vultch, I DO NOT work the fringes, do NOT BnZ. If there is a furball, I'm in the middle, slow and turning. It's what I like.
If any of you want help in either ride I'll be willing to help. Don't bother asking though if you're gonna fly it one time (or rarely) and shelve it. You're wasting your own time, as well as mine. I get more satisfaction on besting "better rides" with a "crappy ride". I've done it since a few months before the arena split.
-
The other day I saw a 110C flying around alone, fair to middlin' high. I was in a C-Hog. Now if I had "ass-umed" easy kill just because the ride didn't roll off the production line in 1945, that guy would have sent me back to the tower. Instead, because of the odd MO, I not only was cognizant of the possibility it was some ace showing off, I was fairly certain of it. As it was, still a long struggle all the way to the bleedin' deck and stall-fighting before I got the kill, even though I was flying a plane that basically does everything better. (I can't really justify spending the time and energy (in BOTH senses) that were required for that one kill, getting into a stall-fight on the deck in the MA is incredibly, suicidally stupid, but sometimes I take notions...)
My point, assume EVERYONE you meet in the sky is an ace with their ride and a dead shot until they prove different, you'll get hit with fewer nasty surprises that way. That extends ESPECIALLY to any "long-shot" old crates you see tooling about in the LW arena.
-
(I can't really justify spending the time and energy (in BOTH senses) that were required for that one kill, getting into a stall-fight on the deck in the MA is incredibly, suicidally stupid, but sometimes I take notions...)
yes, but it is about the most fun too.
My point, assume EVERYONE you meet in the sky is an ace with their ride and a dead shot until they prove different, you'll get hit with fewer nasty surprises that way. That extends ESPECIALLY to any "long-shot" old crates you see tooling about in the LW arena.
i always assume the guy flying the other plane is better than me. sometimes he is, sometimes he isn't. sometimes i'm just lucky.......but i have fun./
<<S>>
-
He's talking about AI.
Forget talking about player-v-player.
AI does NOT follow the same physics that player controlled planes do. AI can pull more Gs, turn significantly tighter, have no limits regarding what their craft can do. That is to say, the code doesn't sit in the cockpit limited by the same values players are, the code simply moves the hollow shell of a plane from point to point, and doesn't care that the points require a motion of travel that is beyond "plane X"s capabilities.
Try fighting vs other players (AvA or EWA) and the comments in here will have some validity. Try it against AI, and none of this thread applies.
-
He's talking about AI.
Forget talking about player-v-player.
AI does NOT follow the same physics that player controlled planes do. AI can pull more Gs, turn significantly tighter, have no limits regarding what their craft can do. That is to say, the code doesn't sit in the cockpit limited by the same values players are, the code simply moves the hollow shell of a plane from point to point, and doesn't care that the points require a motion of travel that is beyond "plane X"s capabilities.
Try fighting vs other players (AvA or EWA) and the comments in here will have some validity. Try it against AI, and none of this thread applies.
so it's NOT my imagination then? that the ai does seemingly impossible stuff?
-
Yes, it does.
-
I have no doubt that an inverted spitfire will keep up with a right-side-up 109 in a dive, my point is the act of inverting...
Could the 109 stick not go into a negative-G dive, then a positive G climb, repeating this, using the fact that he does not have to use his ailerons to his advantage?
A negative G dive (actually a negative G entrance to a dive) burns a lot more E than rolling inverted first and IMO (no data on this) the response time is sluggish and therefore no better than rolling for a positive G entrance.
Maintaining positive G's by rolling isn't a problem in the Spit I/Hurri I.
-
Don't bother asking though if you're gonna fly it one time (or rarely) and shelve it. You're wasting your own time, as well as mine. I get more satisfaction on besting "better rides" with a "crappy ride".
Not to nit-pick but I think flying a plane, even rarely, helps a lot. I try to get 8-10 kills and/or deaths in just about every plane in the plane-set over a six month period. I start each camp with a list of planes I "should" fly to keep that going. I don't always get to every one that camp but I do eventually. This is all in the LWA's too.
I'm still not an expert on all the planes in the plane-set. I still learn something about some of them every time I up but I think it really helps keep me sharp on what I need to to when fighting against them. There's nothing like first-hand experience.
-
Not to nit-pick but I think flying a plane, even rarely, helps a lot. I try to get 8-10 kills and/or deaths in just about every plane in the plane-set over a six month period. I start each camp with a list of planes I "should" fly to keep that going. I don't always get to every one that camp but I do eventually. This is all in the LWA's too.
I'm still not an expert on all the planes in the plane-set. I still learn something about some of them every time I up but I think it really helps keep me sharp on what I need to to when fighting against them. There's nothing like first-hand experience.
i dont have to try to get killed. i just up whatever plane i happen to feel like flying on that particular time, and go pick a fight. chances are i'm gonna die :rofl :O