Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: ZOSO on January 27, 2001, 05:39:00 PM
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I hate to beat a dead horse, but when that horse is still at a full gallop...
I understand if you try to nail a bomber from his 6 you're toast, i can live with that, but when I make high speed beam or overhead runs and still get killed with 1 ping, that's just too much.
I understand they need to be hard to kill because they are rarely escorted in AH, but they are just too strong as they are now imho. I don't think a 10% reduction is unreasonable.
As it is now, I'm gonna join the ranks of those who just ignore bombers and apologize in advance to my coutrymen.
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Bombers are still too easy to kill. Further, bomber guns are manned by human gunners; they aren't auto gunners and it's impossible for a buf pilot to man more than one position....giving fighters a huge advantage over real life where they had 11 crewmen on a bomber. If anything, the bombers should be beefed up and allow more than one gunner at a time.
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why dont you just try %10 harder to not get shot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by TheWobble:
why dont you just try %10 harder to not get shot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Smartprettythang (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) To answer your question, I think i already have. When I started playing, I was getting shot down all the time attacking buffs from their 6, but I followed the advice of others and made the extra effort to make highside etc runs with the same results. It's just not worth it anymore.
(edit)
I just realized that part of my problem is my choice of aircraft. I usually fly either a D hog or P-38 which don't pack tons of punch like some others planes. You C hoggers won't understand this argument at all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). (it's two TWO TWO! whines in one!)
[This message has been edited by ZOSO (edited 01-27-2001).]
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I can't remember the last time I got pinged by a bomber on anything other than a dead 6 o'clock idiot approach.
This in combination with the thread about field ack is really causing me to believe there are user-side hardware/software issues making some people more vulnerable to ack/buff guns than others.....
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Actually, buff guns need to have each gun to have its own AI.
This super-convergance crap is screwing up buffs. I fly buff, I feel bad when I single-ping a fighter. I fly fighter and pray to god that the gunner isnt watching me when I do my high-angle hi speed non-6 approach.
I'd say to give EACH buff gun the AI the field ack has and let a human gunner take control of any gun they want and/or allow full human gunners.
AW with its full human gunners has the buffs "right". They eat a good amount of lead to go down, their full human crew is a pain to deal with (but is realistic and fun) and there is little chance for a SINGLE, lone wolf buff to go against 4 fighters, because in AH a single buff has a good chance of shooting down 3 or 4 attackers with no problem.
My point is, if I, as a fighter have to be FORCED to resort to tricking the single buff gunner into a situation where he cant see me or cant switch to the right gun position in time and/or get a number of my fellow fighters to bring down ONE damn bomber I want it to be fair and make the BUFF guy to bring escorts with him OR fly in formation with other buffs.
A couple of nights ago, a group of 5 Lancasters in formation gave me HEADACHES when trying to attack them. Lanc's guns dont single-ping kill, and they are not ju-88 dart guns either.. they require a decent burst of lead to kill a fighter. I could dive, do high angle attacks, etc... the concentrated firepower was amazing. I ended up diving home with a LOT of my plane in the red and only one engine (P38) left. I believe I managed to hit a Lanc and get one of his engines to leak, but that was it. THAT was a great example of how I think buffs should fly.
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Originally posted by Torgo:
...This in combination with the thread about field ack is really causing me to believe there are user-side hardware/software issues making some people more vulnerable to ack/buff guns than others.....
I am beginning wonder about that myself. I don't know enough about computers and the net to say for sure. Just speculation.
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Maybe more of a wetware issue... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) My record agaist bombers is far, far in my favor.
Tac,
If you fell that way start flying the Lancaster and Ju88. All the Lanc really has is the tail turret with a mere 300rpg and the poor Ju88 is practically unarmed.
That said, my overall K/D ratio in the Lanc is pretty close to 1/1.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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I sure wish I got 1 ping kills on fighters!
I have never, never seen a fighter go down with 1 ping from my end.
They are lit up proper with hit sprites and even then many survive.
The bomber guns may be a bit tough on you fighter jocks but if you take the time to set up your attack you will get me everytime.
Patience is the key to wasting AH bombers and fighter jocks are short on that particular virtue.
I do not feel I must lose my small advantage to satisfy your lust for quick, easy kills.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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i have hammered fighters in a buff (50 cals) and still had them shoot me down, I have never had this "1 ping" phenominon that is being mentioned, I have had it from field ack and fleet ack but never from a player controlled gun of any kind...accept the osti.
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1st ping breaks the plane apart. The other dozen pings you get after you are a fireball.
I do fly lancs, and their guns are quite adequate. I fly a b17 or b26 and i am a demi-god on PMS.
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Originally posted by Tac:
A couple of nights ago, a group of 5 Lancasters in formation gave me HEADACHES when trying to attack them.. <snip> ..I could dive, do high angle attacks, etc... the concentrated firepower was amazing. I ended up diving home with a LOT of my plane in the red and only one engine (P38) left. I believe I managed to hit a Lanc and get one of his engines to leak, but that was it.
Attacking any buff should always be done in at least pairs. Hit them from 2 sides at one time. The buff can only shoot at one of you. THe guy who get shot at peels off while his wingman comes through and tears the buff up.
13th TAS came accross something like 6 or 7 Lancs a while back. We shot them all down, including most of their escorts with out loosing any of our planes. (We were all in P-51s)
Lancs are easiest buff kill to ask for. It is slow, can't maneuver and has very weak turret guns that are disabled very easily.
You want the film? I'll send it to you.
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)
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Originally posted by Sunchaser:
I sure wish I got 1 ping kills on fighters!
Try the 30mm MK108 cannon, found on 109 G-6, G-10 and FW 190 A-8. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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It only takes a couple of pings with a 30mm ;-) To tell you the truth I find fighters easy to shoot down in a Buff and Buffs easy to shoot down in a fighter. There enough morrons to go around.
Attacking Buffs with MG's is stupid. You need cannons.
There are only two attacks that work well against Buffs.
1) Below and more or less from the front
2) Directly above
With both #1 and #2 you can be virtually assured of not getting shot coming at the buff, though #1 works best on the B-26. Unfortunatley if you screw up #1, get ready for an enema. If you screw up attack #2, dive like a madman, swing around, climb and try again. When you do it right, even a B-17 Can't nail you if you come in from the top. Most times he won't even see you coming.
Attacking a Buff from head on is mutually assured destruction. Attacking a Buff from behind is suicide.
...and for your sake, no matter what you are flying keep an eye on that B-26 hovering above you! I use B-26's in an offensive role ALL the time. Right nice aircraft for it too! If you mess up your attack you can always go to your guns because odds are if he's stupid enough to let a B-26 get in that close, he'll be coming in the back way (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Good one Camo, me in a 109, or any fighter.
I am so bad in fighters the only kills I get are when attackers lose control laughing at my feeble attempts to escape and crash into something.
At least in a B17 I get a shot off sometimes and in C47s I can blame all my failures on the function of the airplane.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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Well I have to agree with ZOZO at least in part. I think the affect of the guns should be weighted somehow. I closed in on a JU88 on the 6 o'clock. I know this is dumb BUT I'm thinking realistically I have the edge. It's a light medium bomber with a pathetic tail gun (only 1-7.9mm I think). I'm blasting away in my Spit with 2-20mm's and 4-303's and I get shot down!!! I'm getting pings on him all over with NO visible signs of damage. The JU88s gun is a peashooter compared to the lead I threw at him. My plane had red all over the place. I'm sorry but that's just not right (even from the 6 o'clock position). Twin 50's should do more damage than one little 7.9mm but it doesn't appear it's modeled that way. Too bad for me I assumed it was modeled at least somewhat realistically. On other bombers I don the duck and weave cause I know they have some punch in the tail but a JU88??!! Come on! Get real!
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Historically speaking, there were three angles that a bomber was vulnerable to. A 20º cone head-on, and directly above. Slashing attacks were nearly impossible to defeat due to the angles and speeds. Attacking from directly behind is suicidal, that's a given. But head-on attacks, with up to 7 guns on you, can't be done in AH. It should be only 5 guns, but since the ball turret can be elevated to about +5º you can fire through the aircraft with it. Known bug that still hasn't been fixed.
Lancs aren't trouble; they're flying targets. Some 30 caliber machine guns positiioned on top and on the front. A pair of 50 cals tacked on the rear, gee there's a real threat. Come at 'em from below and they're toast; aim for the wings.
B-26s are easy prey too. Above and behind or directly above are prime angles for a sure-fire kill. I vulched one guy 4 times simply by diving on him; this was done using a D-hog.
Ju-88s are easy to kill at any angle.
B-17s are impossible to kill from head-on, rear, and below. So you're stuck with slashing attacks, which work very well. In a single sortie I shot down a pair of B-17 using slashing attacks and a D-hog. 10 and 2 o'clock work best, and aim for the inboard engine. Dispersion will not only kill that engine, but maybe blow the wing off or cause a pilot-kill. Any other angle usually won't work unless you get the drop on the pilot/gunner. Attacks from above are sort of a grab bag; you might get him, he might get you. The same goes for strikes from below.
TBM-3s are also easy kills. Below and behind works, or a simple bounce from above. Again, aim for the wings to be sure of a kill.
Someone once asked me why he kept losing kills. Easy, he didn't keep shooting. If you blow an engine the guy can still ditch, but if you rip his wing off he's dead. Inflict enough damage to make sure he goes down. This means aiming for the wings or tail section. Once you've got him burning and going down all you have to worry about is someone stealing the kill. Or you can keep firing until the guy explodes, which wastes ammo in my opinion. Crutial if you drive a Yak like me.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/custom1.jpg)
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FlakBait,
Thanks for the tips. Some of them I'm using now (I usually come up from the below or slasing from the 8 o'clock or 4 o'clock level positions). The problem is, the setup time for the kill is long if you want to climb above him. I've found the best survivability in a Buff is to be above 15k - 20k feet is better. And if the Buff driver is like me, he'll position himself so you're always looking at his tail giving you the worst approach (I've killed a lot of fighters that way flying a B17). Of course in real life this was never the case. They flew in boxes and were enroute to their target. Individual Buffs is the rule rather than the exception in AH. This tactic also takes away the 20 degree cone frontal attack.
On another note, you also made my point:
>> You said, "JU88s are an easy kill at any angle"
That's what I thought when I closed on his 6. So Why did I get blown out of the sky??? The only conclusion is that this peashooter of a gun has way too much damage modeled. It needs to be toned down without making the JU88 driver completely defenseless (otherwise, where would the challenge be?)
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SpitLead,
A nitpick with your Ju88 encounter description: He was hitting you with 2 7.92mm guns. If you were approaching from 5 'oclock high or 7 'oclock high he would have only been hitting with one.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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If you go for a dead 6 attack against a JU88 you'll be hit by 4x7.7mm. I like to call this sonic warfare, I can only assume that vs US naval monsters the richocheting reaches natural resonance levels and their wings fall off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) JU88s are hellishly vulnerable, I have to just try and outmaneuver any attackers and hope I can get the torps off accurately enough...
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Zoso,
As a buff pilot, you have zero kills and three deaths -- and you think buff guns are too powerful??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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There is a reason its called "Dead Six Attack"...it means avoid it.
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Karnak - so let me get this straight. Even though the JU88 driver (or any BUFF driver for that matter) can only jump into a single gun position that has only ONE gun, if the other guns can get a shot at you in effect you are firing ALL of those guns simultaneously from one position??? (that's the only way I can see how 4 - 7.9mm's would be firing at me at least according to DUMA). I think I've experienced this while in a PT boat and I see ammo being expended from multiple positions. If this is true, then I'll have to rethink my attacks...
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I have never experienced the one ping kill on a fighter while in a buff. I believe I have gotten a pilot a time or two with a minimum number of pings by hitting the cockpit. I guess there is damage cell there. How are the one pingers killed? Pilot hit or what?
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IMO -
BUFF attacks are not generally executed properly - and even when they are, as a COMPETENT gunner, you still have a good chance for the kill. Unless of course the Fighter was designed to kill BUFFs <Cannon Monsters>. Then you had better shoot straight!
You can configure your stick to fire individual mounts vice all guns. I use this when the fighter is really DWEEBY. Saves ammo for later in the mission.
I agree we need a better OTTO that is more realistic. 2 or 3 fighters working together is instant death for BUFFs. 'Cept when we turn our tracers off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) and also allow for multiple gunners.
I'd also like to see a standardized BUFF gunner configuration... Not the very different configs from BUFF to BUFF. #X should always be the same position.
As far as single ping kills - I've had a few (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif), but generally when the sprite is in the cock-pit (PKd) - and mostly with cannons.
Pilot wounding??? Does AH assume that both Pilot & CO are wounded/dead or has this been over-looked (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)I HATE BEING WOUNDED IN A BUFF! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) It seems very unrealistic to me. If the hit was that bad, Both should be dead. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
Max - Out!
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Yes Spitlead, a gunner fires ALL guns that can hit the target, not just the one position he is in. So from dead 6 on a 17, you are being shot by possibly the ball, and tail turret, in some cases you may have as many as 5-6 guns firing at you.
SKurj
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Thank you SKurj for that invaluable information. My attacks on bombers will now take that into account :-)
(there's a good reason there to fly bombers every once in awhile so you become familiar with their weaknesses like what guns are where with what shooting angles)