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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: xtyger on July 10, 2008, 03:35:42 PM

Title: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: xtyger on July 10, 2008, 03:35:42 PM
Hope the issue hasn't been discussed before. I don't recall it being.

Ok. Show of hands: How many of you think the whirblewind anti- aircraft gun should be perked? And this is coming from someone who loves shooting planes down with them. I just think they're taking over the game in a not- so good way.

Seems to me it's so easy to shoot planes down with the WW that just about anyone can create havoc with one and more and more I'm seeing WWs as the vehicle of choice to attack with. I understand that. Heck, I've done it myself.

It just seems to me it's done too much and you end up with lengthy battles with WWs that won't go away.

They certainly wouldn't go away entirely even if some hefty points were charged for taking one out, but maybe the game wouldn't be dominated so much by them?

The one reservation I have in this regard is I do like to see WW available for fields under attack and vastly outnumbered. I've used them to good effect then even though the field was taken anyway. Nice to give the winners a parting bloody nose, though.

Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Sunka on July 10, 2008, 03:39:00 PM
I dont think their is a need for it.But dont matter to me i prefer the ostwind when im in a flak GV.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Anaxogoras on July 10, 2008, 03:39:27 PM
This topic has been covered at least a few times.  But I'll admit that I'm a very bad shot in the WW.  I have never shot someone down past 800 yards out, and there has to be very little deflection for me to land hits unless the target is in my face.  Then again, I don't spend a lot of time in GV's; some people seem to live in them.

The really good shots are still in ostwinds.  When you see one of those you better watch out.  Even a wingman might not help! :eek:

Don't perk it.  I like dropping bombs on them.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Motherland on July 10, 2008, 03:47:42 PM
I'm more afraid of Ostwinds than Wirbelwinds.

And I've never seen this 'domination of the game' that you're describing.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Masherbrum on July 10, 2008, 03:51:12 PM
Ostwind's and FG's have a longer range than a WW.   The majority of those who roll a WW are ammo sprayers who are trying to clear a vultch. 

I'd enter in some comments from the "Ostie vs. WW" thread in the A&V section, but I'll spare some the whines that they'll spew.   


WW's do NOT need to be perked.   
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Lusche on July 10, 2008, 03:58:46 PM
Lower ENY for sure, perk a big NO.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: crockett on July 10, 2008, 04:04:36 PM
In most cases it always seems to be the vulch tards that cry about WW's, I dunno if you are a vulch tard or not but those are the ones that always complain about them. If you don't vulch it's pretty unlikely you will get shot down by them. I've died 4 times this tour due to a WW and evey time was on base defense in a B24H which is to be expected, because it's a big slow target.

The only time I've ever had a problem with WW's is when they sit out in the woods in the middle of a furball shooting low planes. In that case they are pretty lame.

In short I like WW's because they help stop vulches...
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: SlapShot on July 10, 2008, 04:08:49 PM
Hope the issue hasn't been discussed before. I don't recall it being.

Ok. Show of hands: How many of you think the whirblewind anti- aircraft gun should be perked? And this is coming from someone who loves shooting planes down with them. I just think they're taking over the game in a not- so good way.

Seems to me it's so easy to shoot planes down with the WW that just about anyone can create havoc with one and more and more I'm seeing WWs as the vehicle of choice to attack with. I understand that. Heck, I've done it myself.

It just seems to me it's done too much and you end up with lengthy battles with WWs that won't go away.

They certainly wouldn't go away entirely even if some hefty points were charged for taking one out, but maybe the game wouldn't be dominated so much by them?

The one reservation I have in this regard is I do like to see WW available for fields under attack and vastly outnumbered. I've used them to good effect then even though the field was taken anyway. Nice to give the winners a parting bloody nose, though.



A "search" could have answered that question.

Let me see ... an armored vehicle sitting on a panzer frame that has a turret attached to it with quad 20mm cannons on it that can throw up a wall of 20mm lead ... add that to an inordinate amount of brainless pilots that think that they can come directly at a WW or fly lazily within 1K and not pay a price.

NO ... it's not the WW's fault ... it's the brainless airplane pilots that venture too close. How about we deduct perk points from those who get killed by WWs.

All one needs to do is get some alt ... drop in a 80 to 90 degree dive angle at the WW ... throw out some .50 cals or cannons and it will turn into a big piece of movable metal that has just been de-fanged and is useless at teats on a bull.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Masherbrum on July 10, 2008, 04:11:47 PM
A "search" could have answered that question.

Let me see ... an armored vehicle sitting on a panzer frame that has a turret attached to it with quad 20mm cannons on it that can throw up a wall of 20mm lead ... add that to an inordinate amount of brainless pilots that think that they can come directly at a WW or fly lazily within 1K and not pay a price.

NO ... it's not the WW's fault ... it's the brainless airplane pilots that venture too close. How about we deduct perk points from those who get killed by WWs.

All one needs to do is get some alt ... drop in a 80 to 90 degree dive angle at the WW ... throw out some .50 cals or cannons and it will turn into a big piece of movable metal that has just been de-fanged and it useless at teats on a bull.

Oh noes.     I more or less stated the same about turreting them in an La7.    Incoming!!! 
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: SlapShot on July 10, 2008, 04:13:16 PM
Oh noes.     I more or less stated the same about turreting them in an La7.    Incoming!!! 

I know ... we have already been around this horn ... and let's not forget add ... the same tatics works on the Ostwind too.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Zazen13 on July 10, 2008, 04:13:24 PM
If you're so close to the airfield you're within the effective range of an AA vehicle you get exactly what you deserve. ;) It should be pretty obvious with the added Field Guns and AA vehicle that vulching is generally considered a public nuisance by the powers that be. Go ahead and let the defenders get their wheels up and get a smidgeon of E before you pounce, it'll be more fun for everyone and you won't have to worry about Whirblewinds and stuff.  :aok
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: xtyger on July 10, 2008, 04:37:39 PM
I don't know that I've been bothered too much by them near airfields. As I said, one reservation I did have about making this suggestion is I want them available for airfield defense when an airfield is being overwhelmed.

My main problem is when a bunch of them attack a town. I'll admit, as much as I enjoy the WW myself, I also LOVE gv busting and my latest thing is going after gvs in a b25. B25s are too easy of a target for a WW, imo, especially when there's three or four WWs and they keep getting resupplied.

Another thing I've found, with b25s is, by the time the icon of the WW shows up I'm already in their kill range and the 25 is so sluggish it's hard to get out of the line of fire in time. Switching to a quicker plane can help with that, but I know that no plane is safe around me when I'm in a WW.

Of course, alongside WWs, the biggest annoyance for me when I'm tank busting in a b25 is enemy planes showing up.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Sunka on July 10, 2008, 04:41:57 PM
And on that note i say they should charge perks for eggs, because it is jut to easy and takes no skill to up a set of heavy buffs to egg GV's  :D
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: SlapShot on July 10, 2008, 04:45:23 PM
I don't know that I've been bothered too much by them near airfields. As I said, one reservation I did have about making this suggestion is I want them available for airfield defense when an airfield is being overwhelmed.

My main problem is when a bunch of them attack a town. I'll admit, as much as I enjoy the WW myself, I also LOVE gv busting and my latest thing is going after gvs in a b25. B25s are too easy of a target for a WW, imo, especially when there's three or four WWs and they keep getting resupplied.

Another thing I've found, with b25s is, by the time the icon of the WW shows up I'm already in their kill range and the 25 is so sluggish it's hard to get out of the line of fire in time. Switching to a quicker plane can help with that, but I know that no plane is safe around me when I'm in a WW.

Of course, alongside WWs, the biggest annoyance for me when I'm tank busting in a b25 is enemy planes showing up.

I treat the WW and the OW the same ... with much respect and even more so the OW

1 hit from an OW will ruin your sortie for sure ... I have taken multiple hits from a WW in my F6F and continued the sortie ... not true from an OW.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: angelsandair on July 10, 2008, 04:47:24 PM
Hope the issue hasn't been discussed before. I don't recall it being.

Ok. Show of hands: How many of you think the whirblewind anti- aircraft gun should be perked? And this is coming from someone who loves shooting planes down with them. I just think they're taking over the game in a not- so good way.

Seems to me it's so easy to shoot planes down with the WW that just about anyone can create havoc with one and more and more I'm seeing WWs as the vehicle of choice to attack with. I understand that. Heck, I've done it myself.

It just seems to me it's done too much and you end up with lengthy battles with WWs that won't go away.

They certainly wouldn't go away entirely even if some hefty points were charged for taking one out, but maybe the game wouldn't be dominated so much by them?

The one reservation I have in this regard is I do like to see WW available for fields under attack and vastly outnumbered. I've used them to good effect then even though the field was taken anyway. Nice to give the winners a parting bloody nose, though.



You just gotta use tactics. But the thing is with tactics is though, they're usually for 1 WW. But you can turret it pretty easily w/ .303s.

I think I actually got turreted by a dude in a Parachute!  :O :lol
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Baitman on July 10, 2008, 04:53:54 PM
There is a post on this.

DON'T perk my wirble. Stay 1800 away and you will live.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: SuperbKi11er on July 10, 2008, 08:59:47 PM
I am gunna get grief for this but i, personally, hate the wirble. It sucks ammo and is really hard to aim. I prefer the M-8 (yes i mean what i type i kill planes in m-8s) or Ostwind.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Baitman on July 10, 2008, 09:03:41 PM
Split your triggers fire only 2 cannon until you see hits then open up. :aok Best to turn tracers off too. :aok
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Wingnutt on July 10, 2008, 09:28:46 PM
the indestructible hull gun makes things a little irritating.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Baitman on July 10, 2008, 09:48:41 PM
the indestructible hull gun makes things a little irritating.

I can't ever remember loosing the hull gun on the osti either  :huh good point

come to think about it I don't ever remember loosing the hull gun in any of the GV's :lol
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: DaveJ on July 10, 2008, 09:59:35 PM
I can't ever remember loosing the hull gun on the osti either  :huh good point

come to think about it I don't ever remember loosing the hull gun in any of the GV's :lol

In the rare times that I've been in a GV, I don't think I've ever been Driver Wounded either.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: falcon23 on July 10, 2008, 11:02:11 PM
Lower ENY for sure, perk a big NO.


 I disagree.The main guns are actually very easy to disable..The MG is a different beast though..  ;)
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Slash27 on July 10, 2008, 11:04:24 PM
Fear the Osti :aok
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Lusche on July 10, 2008, 11:15:00 PM

 I disagree.The main guns are actually very easy to disable..The MG is a different beast though..  ;)

So is the Ostwinds main gun. But lower ENY in Wirbel is IMO justified because:

It's more dangerous to slug it out with a Wirbel using guns only
It's actually much easier rack up a huge number of kills quickly in a Wirbel
And most important: Wirbel is twice as effective vs towns as a Ostwind. It's a favourite and very dangerous hording tool vs towns abrely touched by any ENY limits now.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Baitman on July 11, 2008, 01:04:16 AM
So is the Ostwinds main gun. But lower ENY in Wirbel is IMO justified because:

It's more dangerous to slug it out with a Wirbel using guns only
It's actually much easier rack up a huge number of kills quickly in a Wirbel
And most important: Wirbel is twice as effective vs towns as a Ostwind. It's a favourite and very dangerous hording tool vs towns abrely touched by any ENY limits now.

Agreed but I think since it has been brought on the game, the game is now played a little different. On TTues I waited for the VH to pop to defend an Abase from a Rook hord(I counted 25+ from the tower on one screen without turning). I jumped out as soon as it popped (1st out), the rooks were ready and had that hanger back down within 15 seconds. The shear numbers of attackers were able to knock down every GV inside of 2 min. I was gone within 1 but I was able to get quite a few too(8).   :aok

Lowering the ENY would be OK because hording should not happen to a country with more defenders. In this case the ENY for all 3 countries was 0. :aok
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Murdr on July 11, 2008, 01:21:55 AM
:huh I thought the next "Perk the WW" thread was not scheduled until the 12? 
Yep, says right here that yesterdays repeat thread was supposed to be a "B-29" thread  :)
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: yanksfan on July 11, 2008, 05:57:27 AM
:huh I thought the next "Perk the WW" thread was not scheduled until the 12? 
Yep, says right here that yesterdays repeat thread was supposed to be a "B-29" thread  :)

My bad Murdr, the 4th of July cuased some scheduleing problems, I had to merge two "ENY" whines with a "HO" and a "MAP" whine so that I could fit the "PERK this" whines in with the "ARENA LIMITS" whines. I had to cancel the "B29" whine all together and put it on next months schedule. But I may have to rearrange a few things as I believe we are way past due for the "COMBAT Tour' whine, which should be out in "TWO WEEKS', or 14 days which ever comes first.

I will try and do a better job with the memo's.

EDIT: darn it, I totally forgot the hording threads, I'll have to rework this whole thing, I'll send out a memo.

Don
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Rich46yo on July 11, 2008, 06:04:56 AM
The Wirbel is the best thing to happen to this game since Ive been playing it.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: BaDkaRmA158Th on July 11, 2008, 06:54:38 AM
Merh, perk it so the m16 sees the light of day.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Ghosth on July 11, 2008, 07:25:53 AM
Xtyger the B25h has at least 3 x the effective range of a wirble.

Secret is going to be shooting several rounds at it from 4k out, by the time you reach 1.5 or 2k you need to be breaking off.

Also helps if someone else can attack from the other side, he can't shoot at both of you at once.
While the Wirble can shoot out past 1600 yards, 20mm's have so much drop at that range that the odds of hitting you are slim.

Now get inside of 1k on one, and yes they will ruin your day for sure.
So the answer is not to change the perk on the wirble, its to adapt tactics that will work without dieing.


Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: SlapShot on July 11, 2008, 08:42:45 AM

So the answer is not to change the perk on the wirble, its to adapt tactics that will work without dieing.


Come on Ghosth !!! ... that's asking WAY TOO MUCH !!! ... you are one crazy guy.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Nilsen on July 11, 2008, 08:57:30 AM
Wirbles are extremly fragile so i dont think it should be perked. I can think of 3-4 rides that needs perkies loooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooong before the wirble.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: storch on July 11, 2008, 09:01:04 AM
wobblywinds are easy prey
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: 1Boner on July 11, 2008, 09:02:23 AM
Absolutely no need to perk the WW.

Ridiculous.

If anything, we should perk "altitude".

Might not have to waste time climbing to 20k+ to find a Rook as much. :lol
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: rip033 on July 11, 2008, 10:36:26 AM
Wirble are easy prey with multiple plane on it. With one plane i will shoot down any plane 8 out of 10 times.
(Thats without bombs) :salute
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Nilsen on July 11, 2008, 10:43:23 AM
Wirble are easy prey with multiple plane on it. With one plane i will shoot down any plane 8 out of 10 times.
(Thats without bombs) :salute

Yeah but if you go after it with guns the ostwind is just as effective if you are a half way decent shot.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Wingnutt on July 11, 2008, 11:43:52 AM
wirbles are weak but at the same time nearly invincible..

it takes next to nothing to take out the turret... but after that it takes a heavy ord to do anything else..

so unless you happen to have rockets or bombs or heavy cannon.. a wirble is practically indestructible.. you'll get the turret if you look at it funny, but you will never kill it.. not your, not you and 10 buddies if your all clean.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Pannono on July 11, 2008, 12:35:35 PM
i liked it more when itr was ostie and m16, but maybe thats just me
those .50s just have a place inside me :aok
Pan <3 da Ma Deuce
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: MajIssue on July 11, 2008, 01:03:34 PM
I agree... The WW is a destabilizer and should be perked like a Sherman or Tiger...
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: BnZ on July 11, 2008, 01:09:54 PM
Well, I know there are two sides to the perk the WW debate.

Tell you what.
Give me about a dozen manned quad 20mm gun positions with the same durability as the WW turret along each runway and at V-bases, and you can perk the WW for all I care.

One thing that would help too: Last night, I did abit of GV bombing. What I notice is, you can see the icon at 1.5K. This is fairly close to the distance I'd like to release my bomb and be pulling up if I'm trying to get a WW with a plane. Make the icon distances slightly longer for spotting GVs with planes in ground range mode, 2.5 or something. Then bombing vehicles without being slaughtered by the wobblies shouldn't constitute any problem.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Rich46yo on July 11, 2008, 01:56:09 PM
Boy every few weeks someone gets their Corsair C-Hog vulchmobile shot down and a new "perk the WW" thread appears.

These wirbels must really put a crimp in a vulch queens day. Now they have to actually get a vulcher or two to carry bombs with them and get the VH, along with any WWs already out. Queens would rather lazer LA-noobs as they appear on the runway with their lazer cannon and then land them to thunderous applause.

Ive gotten quite a few known Queens in my wirbel and thought it hilarious. :rofl
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: SlapShot on July 11, 2008, 03:26:29 PM
wirbles are weak but at the same time nearly invincible..

it takes next to nothing to take out the turret... but after that it takes a heavy ord to do anything else..

so unless you happen to have rockets or bombs or heavy cannon.. a wirble is practically indestructible.. you'll get the turret if you look at it funny, but you will never kill it.. not your, not you and 10 buddies if your all clean.

Maybe because it sits on a Panzer frame ... a WW is supposed to be tuff armor-wise.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: SlapShot on July 11, 2008, 03:36:04 PM
Well, I know there are two sides to the perk the WW debate.

Tell you what.
Give me about a dozen manned quad 20mm gun positions with the same durability as the WW turret along each runway and at V-bases, and you can perk the WW for all I care.

One thing that would help too: Last night, I did abit of GV bombing. What I notice is, you can see the icon at 1.5K. This is fairly close to the distance I'd like to release my bomb and be pulling up if I'm trying to get a WW with a plane. Make the icon distances slightly longer for spotting GVs with planes in ground range mode, 2.5 or something. Then bombing vehicles without being slaughtered by the wobblies shouldn't constitute any problem.

Maybe we should enable the bomb computing gunsight just for dealing with the WW too ... :rolleyes:

Why is it when people are faced with a challenge ... the cry to make it easier to deal with the challenge or cripple the challenge is deafening ?

Has anybody shown that the WW was not as deadly as it is in the game ? ... I can't imagine anything that has quad 20mm guns not being a force to be reckoned with, and should be handled as something that you really don't want to take on without a solid gameplan.

If you think that you can fly around a vehicle sporting quad 20mm guns, that fire all at the same time, with impunity, then you need your head examined.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: BnZ on July 11, 2008, 04:52:58 PM
Nah, I wouldn't go that far, I just think in general the 1.5K thing might be a tad short, makes it kind of hard to spot something and set up your divebombing pass on a GV in one pass.

Anyway, I don't want it perked myself. I think the WW's prescence  as a defensive weapon is great, I'll admit to being a little more dubious about packs of them rolling into a base offensively. Just if they do decide to perk it, I demand more in the way of fixed position guns at the fields to compensate.




Maybe we should enable the bomb computing gunsight just for dealing with the WW too ... :rolleyes:

Why is it when people are faced with a challenge ... the cry to make it easier to deal with the challenge or cripple the challenge is deafening ?

Has anybody shown that the WW was not as deadly as it is in the game ? ... I can't imagine anything that has quad 20mm guns not being a force to be reckoned with, and should be handled as something that you really don't want to take on without a solid gameplan.

If you think that you can fly around a vehicle sporting quad 20mm guns, that fire all at the same time, with impunity, then you need your head examined.
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: Pannono on July 11, 2008, 06:51:08 PM
In the rare times that I've been in a GV, I don't think I've ever been Driver Wounded either.
i had it happen to me in a jeep and M8 once
anyone ever get a oil or radiator hit in a GV?
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg3/Pannono/ahss168.jpg)
Title: Re: Perk The Wirblewind
Post by: caldera on July 11, 2008, 07:19:38 PM
I don't vulch very often. Mostly because i can't aim for @#%*$! I do see wirbles camping under furballs but the worst is the flood of wirbles into towns. The wirble has become (from what i"ve seen) the most used town killer.
They seem to be landing a lot of kills. Aside from spawn campers, i'd say they are landing more kills than any other gv (again - from what i've seen). The wirble is pretty lethal to anything inside of 1.0k. How many 20mm equipped fighters can say that?
How about a compromise on the perk issue? Keep the status quo on wirbles upped on base and a 5 perk cost to go to a remote spawn. This will keep vulching in check and maybe we'll see ostis again on offensive sorties.