Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Hamltnblue on July 12, 2008, 12:19:09 AM
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Tonight's FSO was a blast. We had one great fight, and alot of looking over our shoulders for those lurking 262's that never showed. Great job Staff and CIC's. :rock
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Yes, once we got in that area. I kept looking at my six high and low. Them sneaky 262 can pop out of no where.
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My night started like this;
We were engaged from a high six position... almost caught unawares... luckily a false alarm had our heads on a swivel... the was a lot of confusion at first.
My schwarm was attacked first... two of four of us made it out...
8 of 21 of JG11's total made it out for 11 kills. Not bad considering the circumstances. More and more high Spt14's and P47N's kept pouring in as the fight progressed.
Tons of fun.
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Yeah me & my squad had a blast tonight flying our Tempest's, mostly engaged K4's, managed to shot down 2, but as I was setting up my shot for my 3rd kill a 109 must have got on my 6 without me seeing it, and got no check 6 calls, so my wing was taken off, but other then that it was a very enjoyable FSO, so wtg CM team on another exciting FSO. :salute
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This was the most boring FSO frame that I've ever flown in my life.
Jokers Jokers had 20 ponies that could have been used elsewhere other than chasing 2 or 3 Ar 234s over the City.
We had squadies that didn't fire a single shot the entire time.
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We had a decent enough time. One of our new pilots kept getting lost. So we kept turning the formation trying to find him while trying to explain the whole 4-9-3 thing to him so he could find us on the map. We ended up out of position and got bounced from above by P51's.
Once engaged we didn't put up a very impressive showing. Think we lost 11 and killed 1.
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VMF-251 claimed twelve for 1 shot down, which beat our kill/death even on our 30-kill sortie in Frame 1 of Guadalcanal (ended up losing three to discos, one crashed after the fight, one ditched while RTB, and one crashed on landing approach).
Our lead flight in Sector Delta was patrolling 14.9 and 14.8 at 28k, and got hit by a flight of P-47s at 30k (where our one was shot down). However the enemy was spread out and we were basically able to take them on piecemeal. In the end I barely got to fire a shot.
If I were to make a suggestion for next frame it would be to decrease the size of the "furball" zones to concentrate the fights. I didn't so much mind the half our transit to and from the fight, but once there things were so spread out you might never see an enemy plane, and the fights very easily descended into a many-vs-few (or one) feeding frenzy.
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This was the most boring FSO frame that I've ever flown in my life.
Jokers Jokers had 20 ponies that could have been used elsewhere other than chasing 2 or 3 Ar 234s over the City.
We had squadies that didn't fire a single shot the entire time.
I know what you mean, Dave. Hellcat fighter group only encountered a few jets up at the northern most city, 15 at most. We had that many plus three other squads backing us up. But loss rates were good. Only lost 2 guys and one disco.
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15 at most.
I think we only had 9.
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This was the most boring FSO that I've ever flown in my life.
Jokers Jokers had 20 ponies that could have been used elsewhere other than chasing 2 or 3 Ar 234s over the City.
We had squadies that didn't fire a single shot the entire time.
If it makes you feel any better it was just as bad being the 234s you ambushed. Except we didn't get to jump anyone. Imho the attack part of the event needss to be dropped and let it be just a furball event.
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..We ended up out of position and got bounced from above by P51's.
Once engaged we didn't put up a very impressive showing. Think we lost 11 and killed 1.
Actually we were shaowing them from low 6. That was the 353rd, Shifty, Jester, BC21 and my old squad. Hella fight ensued with the ponies at about a 2k alt advtg. The 49th bagged 2 and damaged a few more, but we lost 11 with BC21 being the only survivor.
:salute 353rd
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Vf-6 doesn't want to talk about it........We got destroyed from above. those 109's were sketchy at 35K!!!
:salute 367th
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Vf-6 doesn't want to talk about it........We got destroyed from above. those 109's were sketchy at 35K!!!
:salute 367th
35K?!!!. They can only be 30k
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This was the most boring FSO frame that I've ever flown in my life.
Jokers Jokers had 20 ponies that could have been used elsewhere other than chasing 2 or 3 Ar 234s over the City.
We had squadies that didn't fire a single shot the entire time.
It wasn't any better flying a 262. It was past the 55 min mark before we ever got to our target area and saw any cons, only to spend the next 30 mins or so being chased all over the map. Was about 9 of us in 262's and about 25 Temps/Ponys. You couldn't fight any of them, because there were far too many any time you tried to single one out away from the hoarde they tried to HO you. If you dove into the hoarde you had 5 or 6 of them trying to HO you. Oh lets not forget to mention the puffy ack at our target that can light a 262 up in 1 burst.
I spent 30 mins getting chased all over before I said the hell with it and jumped into a hoarde of about 15 Temps to get killed. No way was I going to fly 30 mins back to my base after all that. With 30 cons all over the place I still was never able to fire my guns once.
To who ever designed this.. I know it sounds like a good idea to dog fight in 262's I thought it sounded fun myself at first. However it was extremely boring because you couldn't do anything but dodge HO's and run. I'd seriously suggest moving the targets about 10 sectors closer and give Axis 190D's & 109K4's and just ditch the 262's. 262's were meant to be defensive fighters shooting down bombers not offensive fighters trying to dog fight prop planes.
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This was the most boring FSO frame that I've ever flown in my life.
Jokers Jokers had 20 ponies that could have been used elsewhere other than chasing 2 or 3 Ar 234s over the City.
We had squadies that didn't fire a single shot the entire time.
:huh... glad I'm on vacation. Just heard from my squad and they flew a racetrack pattern in P51s and never fired a shot either.
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35K?!!!. They can only be 30k
Some sectors had a cap of 40K
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Actually we were shaowing them from low 6. That was the 353rd, Shifty, Jester, BC21 and my old squad. Hella fight ensued with the ponies at about a 2k alt advtg. The 49th bagged 2 and damaged a few more, but we lost 11 with BC21 being the only survivor.
:salute 353rd
Thanks Odee, The only thing that would have been better is having our old squadies back with us. :salute
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35K?!!!. They can only be 30k
Our squad was just doing what were ordered, which was to patrol from 30-40k in 109k-4's. It was actualy writen in a way that made it seem like we would get in trouble if we went below 30k. but whatever Im not complaining I love FSO and fully understand you dont always get to fight the fight you want too. Anytime I am with my squad is good times, even if we are getting owned by others :aok
FSO always rocks :rock and we are looking foward to getting some revenge next week!!! :rock
:salute
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To who ever designed this.. I know it sounds like a good idea to dog fight in 262's I thought it sounded fun myself at first. However it was extremely boring because you couldn't do anything but dodge HO's and run. I'd seriously suggest moving the targets about 10 sectors closer and give Axis 190D's & 109K4's and just ditch the 262's. 262's were meant to be defensive fighters shooting down bombers not offensive fighters trying to dog fight prop planes.
I don't think 262s necessarily would need to be ditched if the targets were moved closer. The best approach would be coordinate between the 262s, 190s and 109s. Use the slower fighters to tie up the enemy and pin them down, while the 262s pick them off while they're occupied.
In other words, using the 262 like in the Mains. :rolleyes:
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My only comments concern the Ta-152.
Late in the war these aircraft were designed primarily
to contend with high-flying B-17s and the anticipated
arrival of the B-29 to the European theater.
They were never envisioned as air superiority
fighters. They were designed to confront bombers.
Using them in such an ill-suited role proved
suicide in this FSO. I would have preferred
flying a 190 - any 190 - rather then the Kurt
Tank pseudo-190.
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When I saw the plane set I knew that it wouldn't be much fun flying for Axis in 262's, it's not really built for dog fights, it's best role is in taking out bombers, but the Allies had no bombers to be shot down, thats why our squad decided Allies would be were the most fun would be.
I think alot of people just saw jets and wanted to fly them because they are so rarely used in FSO's, but really didn't think it through on how hard it would be to be dog fighting Allied planes in 262's. I think it would be alot more fun for Axis players if they had some Allied bombers to go after, just my 2 cents.
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My only comments concern the Ta-152.
Late in the war these aircraft were designed primarily
to contend with high-flying B-17s and the anticipated
arrival of the B-29 to the European theater.
They were never envisioned as air superiority
fighters. They were designed to confront bombers.
Using them in such an ill-suited role proved
suicide in this FSO. I would have preferred
flying a 190 - any 190 - rather then the Kurt
Tank pseudo-190.
The Ta152 takes a while to get used to, but it is by far the best 190 in any role beside JaBo.
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I don't think 262s necessarily would need to be ditched if the targets were moved closer. The best approach would be coordinate between the 262s, 190s and 109s. Use the slower fighters to tie up the enemy and pin them down, while the 262s pick them off while they're occupied.
In other words, using the 262 like in the Mains. :rolleyes:
Yes I can agree with that.. In short a 262 is a pick fighter. It doesn't stand a chance in a straight up dog fight because your dead if you get it slow. The 262's need a distraction in order to work their magic or be sent to shoot down buffs.
The problem was 9 of us were sent 10 or 12 sectors away alone as a fighter sweep to fight 20 to 25 cons that all want to HO every pass. In short it wasn't fun and wasn't fighting, but rather a whole lot of having to dodge HO's and run from hoardes of cons. as I posted above despite there being 20 to 25 cons I never fired a round the whole night, because you just couldn't fight it was nothing more than dodging and running.
I can't blame them for the HO's because it was pretty much their only chance to shoot down the 262's unless one got slow. It was just a very bad mismatch IMHO. I'd have rather been in a K4 in the same situation, I would have been gang banged to hell but at least it wouldn't have been so boring. :lol
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The biggest problem that I think people have with FSO with new planes is the lack of high altitude experience in them. Before the event our squad spent a good hour flying from A3 in the TA. That base starts out at 30,000 feet and provides an excellent training spot for high altitude fights. We use it regularly and rarely see anyone else there. The flight characteristics of all aircraft are completely different at 20k+ then near ground. I think people are caught off guard when in the FSO and make those first few turns only to stall out. It's not the time to learn the plane's limits.
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Our squad was just doing what were ordered which was t0 that was to patrol from 30-40k in 109k-4's. It was actualy writen in a way that made it seem like we would get in trouble if we went below 30k. but whatever Im not complaining I love FSO and fully understand you dont always get to fight the fight you want too. Anytime I am with my squad is good times, even if we are getting owned by others :aok
FSO always rocks :rock and we are looking foward to getting some revenge next week!!! :rock
:salute
Sorry, didnt know that. How was the weather up there?
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To who ever designed this.. I know it sounds like a good idea to dog fight in 262's I thought it sounded fun myself at first. However it was extremely boring because you couldn't do anything but dodge HO's and run. I'd seriously suggest moving the targets about 10 sectors closer and give Axis 190D's & 109K4's and just ditch the 262's. 262's were meant to be defensive fighters shooting down bombers not offensive fighters trying to dog fight prop planes.
Hardly the designers fault. Maybe ask your FSO CO not to request the Deuce. Muppets are killas, CiC gave you what you requested because he most likely felt you were the best squad for it.
:salute
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Hardly the designers fault. Maybe ask your FSO CO not to request the Deuce. Muppets are killas, CiC gave you what you requested because he most likely felt you were the best squad for it.
:salute
Yes, I know we requested the planes because it sounded like a good idea at the time. When we did our squad vote, for what plane to request I was one that requested a 262 because I assumed we would be used in a support fashion not as a suicide fighter sweep. I for one would have never expected we would be sent 12 sectors away alone as a fighter sweep against 20+ cons.
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Sorry, didnt know that. How was the weather up there?
No Prob. It was raining lead!
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we were in ponys @ 20k and got jumped hard by the k4's near the flack factory was great we probable shoulda had more alt but great event as always :salute
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Vf-6 doesn't want to talk about it........We got destroyed from above. those 109's were sketchy at 35K!!!
:salute 367th
:salute Vf-6
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Captfish rest that got engaged with 367th and 68's great fights you chaps gave us a real fight head ons were
not the first tactic used lotta manuver fighting.we may have got the best this round but knowing you guys im sure you will be back with a vengance :rock :salute
DH367
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Some serious rethinking needs to be done for the next 2 frames, or I can GUARANTEE you all (CiCs and everyone else in charge) that there will be little interest for this FSO and the number of pilots will be greatly reduced.
I myself probably will not come if all Jokers get assigned to do is patrol a remote sector with zero chance of fighter vs fighter action and instead chase jets all day. No thank you.
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Like i suggested, ditch the 234s and allow those pilots to be moved to fighters so that we can allow the 262s to be used correctly, they were never meant to be 1v1 fighters. They were there to distract or pick someone in a dogfight get them killed by allowing an allied fighter to get a shot on them, or hit them when they aren't expecting it. After all objectives that are correctly defended by the allied planes is at most a mutual defeat. All allies have to do is hover at 30k above the target, and then wait for the 234s to attack and when they pass over the objective, pounce them with a 10k dive and you've successfully negated their most major defensive feature, speed.
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Like i suggested, ditch the 234s and allow those pilots to be moved to fighters so that we can allow the 262s to be used correctly, they were never meant to be 1v1 fighters. They were there to distract or pick someone in a dogfight get them killed by allowing an allied fighter to get a shot on them, or hit them when they aren't expecting it. After all objectives that are correctly defended by the allied planes is at most a mutual defeat. All allies have to do is hover at 30k above the target, and then wait for the 234s to attack and when they pass over the objective, pounce them with a 10k dive and you've successfully negated their most major defensive feature, speed.
Not really a scenario then, just one big furball.
The 262's should be used as escort fighters, apparently they were not...? They're useless otherwise. 262 are the only a/c that can keep up with 234s while avoiding allied fighters, and they have a distraction (the bombers) to capitalize on.
I didn't get to look at the orders though, as my email is down.
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5th Air Force had a great night. I would suggest for the LW whiners that they contact their CIC and do a better job of coordination over the target. Because what I saw of the 234 runs on the troop factory the timing was none existent to abysmal.
Vlkyrie1
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I would suggest for the LW whiners that they contact their CIC and do a better job of coordination over the target.
Exactly, don't blame the plane set, or the set up, with the right set of orders I'm sure you would have had a better FSO.
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(*Krusty walks up to the podium, clears his throat, shuffles his papers, taps the mic gently*)
"I told you so."
P.S. USMC/71Sqn were bored as hell looking all over London area for anything to fight and then FINALLY after were were about to say "screw the orders, let's find a fight" as we strayed to find a fight we got bounced by 2 or 3 separate squadrons in re-entry from a sub-orbital trajectory, and not one of us survived. Okay, one (me), but I was put out of the fight instantly and ran RTB with no radiator, never fired a damned shot.
I agree with the "most boring FSO EVER" comment.
Bad design, bad setup. Allied planes will ALWAYS have the advantage in this setup. The 109K can barely fly level at 32k. It can't make a gentle turn without losing a few K alt. 190D can't even GET to 30k. If it zooms that high and levels out, it has to drop 4k as it makes a gentle sector-wide 90-degree turn.
P.P.S. For the folks griping about the 152: It'd have been 12x worse in a 190d. Keep that in mind.190D in past FSOs can only hold its own against p-47s that were otherwise occupied, and is dog meat for p51s in squad-v-squad engagements. Can't disengage, can't outmanuver, can't run, can't get over the target to bounce it, can't break from a bounce before being shot.
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Only real problems I had with the Dora in Frame 1 was the guns and the view forward (granted, the fight basically boiled down to anywhere from 8-12 of my squad jumping on at most about 4-5 P-47s and/or P-51s that stumbled across us in sporadic groups). Had shots a couple times I could have nailed with one eye closed in my Hog, but German Iron has almost no visibility over the nose except up, so deflection-shooting was totally blind, and the rotten guns led to a few scattered hits from the cowl guns and I don't think I landed anything with the cannon. I'd have gladly traded the two 20mm for an extra pair of 13mm machine guns, which even then IMO suffer significantly in comparison to the point-and-click Ma Deuce, but at least I'd have more consistent ballistics and could maybe have turned one of my three assists into a kill with the extra weight of fire. :rolleyes:
(This is after practicing gunnery in the Dora in the DA, too)
Regarding altitude, the fighting in our sector very quickly descended to about 10,000ft or lower, including a couple short brawls on the deck (see Nefarious' pics ;) ).
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Not really a scenario then, just one big furball.
The 262's should be used as escort fighters, apparently they were not...? They're useless otherwise. 262 are the only a/c that can keep up with 234s while avoiding allied fighters, and they have a distraction (the bombers) to capitalize on.
I didn't get to look at the orders though, as my email is down.
And why is it being a big furball a bad thing? It beats flying for 52 minutes just to get both drones and 1 engine shot out by 20 space shuttles on re-entry, and then flying another 55 minutes rtb with one engine, constantly having to hold rudder so you don't do circles. Not to mention missing the bomb drops because the wind is in a different direction than specified in the objectives/orders.
Sax: Yeah the Dora takes a special kinda person to get really good at gunnery with. Sorta like shooting at stuff in a hurry at 600 out in a hard turn. See it before hand pull a lot more lead on it, pull trigger, let yourself lag outside their turn to see if the plane is still there.
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If you like the 38, consider coming to the 49th FG. Pretty much all we fly in AvA ;)
Some serious rethinking needs to be done for the next 2 frames, or I can GUARANTEE you all (CiCs and everyone else in charge) that there will be little interest for this FSO and the number of pilots will be greatly reduced.
I myself probably will not come if all Jokers get assigned to do is patrol a remote sector with zero chance of fighter vs fighter action and instead chase jets all day. No thank you.
Well Davey, the 49th found plenty of fighters Friday night... Only problem was, they were higher than our 109K's :o
:salute 353rd for a great swirling dogfight! :aok
PS You're in VA? I'm up next to the Rappahanock river
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I had a very intense fun FSO. No shortage of spit14's and jugs in the air it seemed. :devil
Agree with Bubi the TA-152 is the best air to air FW. Takes some time to get used to though. Watch moot fly it to see how good it can be.
Frodo
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I'm up next to the Rappahanock river
Pretty much same here. I live in Fredericksburg. :aok
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Pretty much same here. I live in Fredericksburg. :aok
:O Git out! Me too :rofl
:noid
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:O Git out! Me too :rofl
:noid
:O
:noid
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Not really a scenario then, just one big furball.
The 262's should be used as escort fighters, apparently they were not...? They're useless otherwise. 262 are the only a/c that can keep up with 234s while avoiding allied fighters, and they have a distraction (the bombers) to capitalize on.
I didn't get to look at the orders though, as my email is down.
Our group was sent in ahead of the bombers to do a fighter sweep before the bombers got there. I have no clue where the other 262's were supposed to go but only 9 of us were sent as a fighter sweep against two squads and 20+ Temps and P51D's.
(rest of this post is stats info in hopes of making the next two frames better)
From the looks of the scores the other 262's were also used in pretty much the same roll as we were, most likely fighter sweeps.
A total of 46 262's accounted for only 18 kills. ( in which Kappa killed 5 on his own.. wtg kappa <!S>)
Lynchmod had 17 pilots in 262's 7 kills 5 landed
31st Fighter Group had 8 262's 1 kill 3 landed
325th Checkertails VFG 12 pilots 0 kills and 17 landed (dunno whats up with that looks like some of them reupped)
Army of Muppets 9 pilots 10 kills 3 landed (my squad)
If you exclude the 325th because they reupped it appears and didn't kill anything, that's 34 aircraft which still isn't even a 1 to 1 kill ratio with only 11 landing. That's less than 1 third of the aircraft that saw action that actually survived.
I'm not sure how it can be concluded as anything other than the aircraft were used in a pretty much a useless manor. Now I'm not trying to rag on the event staff I'm thankful they put these events on. My hats off to them, I'm just trying to make sure the most valuable aircraft on the Axis side are used in a useful manor the next two frames.
Granted this is a "what if" set up so we don't have any real tactics to go by, but in a sense we do. Look at the Russian Front and the Tiger tanks. The Tigers were sent into the battle and got their butts handed to them at first. The Axis realized the Tanks were likely the best tanks on the battlefield but they just couldn't send them head first into a battle with out any support.
The Axis adjusted their tactics and were later much more careful how the Tigers were used in battle, allowing the more expendable Armor to engage first. One would have to assume the Axis after suffering losses such as this, would then rethink their tactics to use their most valuable aircraft in a diffrent mannor that is more suited to their ability. That or we just need to clone Kappa 46 times.
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This is pretty much what I predicted...Allies in a walk. The simple reality is that the german airforce was improperly concieved and constructed for any type of strategic offensive operations. It is strictly a tactical/defensive entity. I got a little "wife acked" at an inopportune moment and compressed/blacked out=>augered...but given the whole squad went down it wouldnt have mattered. We were barely even mobile at 30-32k and we engaged a few ponies and then had multiple squads fall on us from what appeared to be 35 or even 40k.
What I do find suprising is the Ar-234 survival rate which I do blame on poor allied communication/coordination. Way to many allied planes gangbanging the german fighters and not enough cap disipline. Our job was to get the allies focused on us, and obviously we and the other similiarly tasked squad did....but with roughly 100% losses. So from what I saw the 262's got kicked around and the other axis squads that actually got heavily engaged were basically exterminated....but the buffs did get thru suprisingly well.
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"This is pretty much what I predicted...Allies in a walk. The simple reality is that the german airforce was improperly concieved and constructed for any type of strategic offensive operations. It is strictly a tactical/defensive entity."
:aok I wish everyone understood this. well said.
The exception being of course, the earliest days of the war and the far afield theatres where the luftwaffe enjoyed total air superiority and were able to employ their tactical forces in an effective offensive role, closely coordinated with fast moving ground forces.
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This was the most boring FSO frame that I've ever flown in my life.
Jokers Jokers had 20 ponies that could have been used elsewhere other than chasing 2 or 3 Ar 234s over the City.
We had squadies that didn't fire a single shot the entire time.
This happens.
The most ironic and telling thing about large scale operations.
This was my 44th FSO mission. I never had a more fun, INTENSE, white knuckled, sweat inducing sortie in all those flights.
I have had sorties like you describe as well DaveJ.
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I have had sorties like you describe as well DaveJ.
I understand this.
But judging by the responses on here, I'd say that alot of people agree with me and I'm not the only person with my viewpoint.
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"This is pretty much what I predicted...Allies in a walk. The simple reality is that the german airforce was improperly concieved and constructed for any type of strategic offensive operations. It is strictly a tactical/defensive entity."
:aok I wish everyone understood this. well said.
The exception being of course, the earliest days of the war and the far afield theatres where the luftwaffe enjoyed total air superiority and were able to employ their tactical forces in an effective offensive role, closely coordinated with fast moving ground forces.
Having read the BBs before fso start, I understood this was to be a challenge for the allies, do to the" what if " scenario that the Germans had gained the upper hand and initiative during the war! With this said, if the axis has the initiative shouldn't they have slightly more #s than the allies ? We would assume the axis is on the offensive! Also if the balance had shifted as the " what if " scenario dictates, wouldn't the allies be tryin to interdict and disrupt ground operations as much as possible! Also IF the war had really turned as this scenario suggests, the allies still have the superior air forces and would be trying to take advantage of this superiority as much as possible to include their superior bombing ability IMHO.
Just give the allies attack responsibility and let the frames play out!! It eill clearly be allied victory in the end!! Then we can move on to the------------> MANCHURIAN MEAT GRINDER :rock
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My schwarm initially stayed high and made contact with a group of jugs, the 68th gang, who didn't gain on us and broke off. A few minutes later we dove in to help friendlies in trouble below, voila, there are the jugs again now diving in from a decisive alt advantage. The three of us were ganged by no fewer than 6 P47Ns and the fight fell rapidly down to the deck. Boingg shot down one, just before I was set on fire. Then boingg went down and last Viper, there's not much you can do when outnumbered 2 vs 6 (another jug was diving in eager to join). The fight went on for several minutes and down to 2-3k. I think chaos would be the word best describing the fight, I never had a clear picture of how many jugs were on us or where they were, as there was always someone on my six. Only after viewing the film afterwards did I see clearly what happened, and we didn't fight half as bad as I thought we did when logging off. It was a heck of a fight.
:salute
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One key problem in this setup is that the Axis is given aircraft that they very likely wouldn't have used in this scenario. The Germans learned their lesson, albeit too late, during the Battle of Britain, that their bombing strategy and aircraft were insufficient to the task. They were in the process of developing more capable heavy bombers typified by the American B-17s and B-24s, and the British Lancaster, but Allied attacks on their industry and the need to focus on air defense prevented these from being fully explored.
The premise of this is one in which the Allied bombing campaign stalled, if it ever got going. However we do NOT have a plane set that adequately reflects this. If history had unfolded in this manner, the Germans would very likely have access to the advanced four-engined heavy bombers they designed but circumstances prevented them from constructing, while the Allies would have focused more attention on the development of interceptors and destroyers. The Tempest certainly fits this role adequately, as would the Mosquito (in fact, I think the Mosquito SHOULD be inserted into the Allied plane set in place of one of the Spit variants). However the P-51 and P-47N do not, as they were both designed as long-range high-altitude escorts. Of the American plane set, the P-38 and F4U-1C better fit the "destroyer" role.
Also, I agree with Stampf. If the Allies had the numbers advantage while flying attack during Kanalkampf when the Luftwaffe was on the ropes, why do they have the numerical advantage NOW that THEY'RE in that position?
IMO, I'd make the following adjustments for Frames 2 and 3:
Allied Plane Set:
Retain the Tempest and Spit XIV, as she's the closest Spit available to the type of high-altitude interceptor we'd expect in this setup.
Replace the Spit XVI with Mosquito
Replace the P-51 with the P-38L
Retain the P-47N, or replace her with one of the later D variants. The P-47s aren't perfect for this setup, but their heavy machine gun armament best suits the "destroyer" role
Axis Plane Set:
Unfortunately there's not much that can be done here, as there's nothing in the Axis plane set that adequately reflects what equipment the Luftwaffe would have had in the field under these circumstances (short of substituting B-17s, B-24s or Lancasters to fill in for the planned German heavies).
Numbers:
Shift some of the Allied squadrons to Axis. As stated above: If the Axis had a numerical disadvantage in Kanalkampf and this setup is meant to reflect an alternate scenario where the Allies faced this same situation, then the Axis should have the numerical advantage this time.
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Then we can move on to the------------> MANCHURIAN MEAT GRINDER :rock
I am doing August's FSO, and I'm sorry to tell you but its not the Manchurian Meat Grinder :lol
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I do think that one aspect that might be explored is breaking the 262's up into more dispersed groups. If each 109/152/190D squad had a flight of 262's attached it would provide both scouting and some "top cover" while giving the 262s some more targets of opportunity. The 262 is simply not effective (in most pilots hands) in a full squad deployment.
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One key problem in this setup is that the Axis is given aircraft that they very likely wouldn't have used in this scenario. The Germans learned their lesson, albeit too late, during the Battle of Britain, that their bombing strategy and aircraft were insufficient to the task. They were in the process of developing more capable heavy bombers typified by the American B-17s and B-24s, and the British Lancaster, but Allied attacks on their industry and the need to focus on air defense prevented these from being fully explored.
The premise of this is one in which the Allied bombing campaign stalled, if it ever got going. However we do NOT have a plane set that adequately reflects this. If history had unfolded in this manner, the Germans would very likely have access to the advanced four-engined heavy bombers they designed but circumstances prevented them from constructing, while the Allies would have focused more attention on the development of interceptors and destroyers. The Tempest certainly fits this role adequately, as would the Mosquito (in fact, I think the Mosquito SHOULD be inserted into the Allied plane set in place of one of the Spit variants). However the P-51 and P-47N do not, as they were both designed as long-range high-altitude escorts. Of the American plane set, the P-38 and F4U-1C better fit the "destroyer" role.
Also, I agree with Stampf. If the Allies had the numbers advantage while flying attack during Kanalkampf when the Luftwaffe was on the ropes, why do they have the numerical advantage NOW that THEY'RE in that position?
IMO, I'd make the following adjustments for Frames 2 and 3:
Allied Plane Set:
Retain the Tempest and Spit XIV, as she's the closest Spit available to the type of high-altitude interceptor we'd expect in this setup.
Replace the Spit XVI with Mosquito
Replace the P-51 with the P-38L
Retain the P-47N, or replace her with one of the later D variants. The P-47s aren't perfect for this setup, but their heavy machine gun armament best suits the "destroyer" role
Axis Plane Set:
Unfortunately there's not much that can be done here, as there's nothing in the Axis plane set that adequately reflects what equipment the Luftwaffe would have had in the field under these circumstances (short of substituting B-17s, B-24s or Lancasters to fill in for the planned German heavies).
Numbers:
Shift some of the Allied squadrons to Axis. As stated above: If the Axis had a numerical disadvantage in Kanalkampf and this setup is meant to reflect an alternate scenario where the Allies faced this same situation, then the Axis should have the numerical advantage this time.
Not trying to raid on your parade, Saxman, but the FSO says that U.S. fighters from the Pacific were coming in to Europe. So it would make sense that long-range fighters would be deployed by the Allies. I understand, however, that the chosen Axis fighters arent really meant to act as escorts. The 190, Ta-152, and Me-262 are all interceptors trying to occupy a fighter escort/air superiority role. The only plane that can truely fill the air-superiority niche is the 109k-4. Also, your right that the Axis would have a heavy bomber (possibly using jet engines, possibly not) and probably a fighter escort. Only problem with "what if" scenerios is that they never could and did due to how history actually happend
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I am doing August's FSO, and I'm sorry to tell you but its not the Manchurian Meat Grinder :lol
Um! the MANCHURIAN MASSACRE ?
How about MANCHURIAN MELTDOWN ?
or MADNESS OVER MANCHURIA ?
TERRIBLE IVANS SUSHI BUFFET ?
It's OK I can wait! It will be worth the wait I'm sure ;)
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I do think that one aspect that might be explored is breaking the 262's up into more dispersed groups. If each 109/152/190D squad had a flight of 262's attached it would provide both scouting and some "top cover" while giving the 262s some more targets of opportunity. The 262 is simply not effective (in most pilots hands) in a full squad deployment. :
Just put 6 hispanos on each DEUCE and let the furballing commence :rock
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True, Pony, but the only Allied fighter that you could really consider a PTO bird in this setup is the P-47N. Which you'll also note in my suggested adjustments is left in the lineup.
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I suppose your right, Sax, just want a chance to fly the 51 in the FSO, especially since the high speeds of this FSO brings it into its elements :D
I think I have heard about squads in the pacific with the P51, though, and it would make sense because of the 51s long range and fuel effenciency needed for fighers in the pacific. And if aircraft are coming in from the pacific to europe, as the FSO suggests, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that the 51 squads are moved to Britian as the FSO suggests.
But agian, theres no proof as to if the P51 would or would not have been used since this FSO is only a "what if" scenerio and is hard to imagine what would have happend.
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Ponyace,
The P-51 was actually a case of a ETO fighter being moved to the Pacific. The majority of Mustangs were already going to Europe so she doesn't fit the premise of PTO fighters being shipped to Europe.
However in counter to this, as stated before the P-51 isn't particularly suited to the Interceptor/Destroyer role. Since under this scenario the Allies never had the chance to put the strategic bombing campaign into full effect, they had no need of a high-altitude, long-range escort fighter, so there's a very strong possibility the P-51 may have never evolved beyond the Allison-powered variant (no high-altitude long-range bomber raids over Germany, so there's no need for fighters able to escort them. Therefore, no need for the British to experiment with the Merlin). The P-51 may have even evolved along a totally different path (Hispanos for bringing down bombers, perhaps?)
She can fill the interceptor role, but I think the P-38L would be much more appropriate on both counts, since the P-38 was more widely deployed in the Pacific than Northwest Europe, and the armament makes her better suited to the destroyer role (tons of ammo, guns in the center where they're more effective, and the 20mm).
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Alright, alright, you win Saxman. Besides, we're getting a little off topic. This thread is about how the FSO was, not how it will be. Either way, the second frame should be better than the first for both sides as the Cics will have feedback that they didnt have for the first one and (hopefully) will learn from it.
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Numbers:
Shift some of the Allied squadrons to Axis. As stated above: If the Axis had a numerical disadvantage in Kanalkampf and this setup is meant to reflect an alternate scenario where the Allies faced this same situation, then the Axis should have the numerical advantage this time.
Given the breakdown of squads, and their historical numbers each frame, the Axis should be able to field in excess of 350 aircraft per frame, versus 275 for the Allies. That's predicated on 275 Allied pilots and 225 Axis pilots. For frame 1, there were 247 Axis pilots and 263 Allied pilots, with a total of 375 Axis aircraft being used and 290 Allied aircraft being used. These numbers aren't vetted for all the takeoff re-ups, discos, and crashes--I'll have that data after I finish the scoring. But, clearly the Axis had an advantage in numbers of aircraft.
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This is pretty much what I predicted...Allies in a walk.
Given that the score hasn't even been posted yet, I'd say this statement is premature...
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Given that the score hasn't even been posted yet, I'd say this statement is premature...
No question that the arados got thru and some did very well. My comments were directed at the functional result, not the score per se. The 262 units were relatively inneffective and suffered high losses. A number of the other german units literally ceased to exist. So from my perspective the thought that the 262's would be effective and/or tip the overall balance toward the axis to create a turkey shoot was wrong.
From some of the allied pilots comments it sounds like the allied command and control didnt do a good job of getting units into play (then again to use football terminology you need to stay in your lane vs the arado's) otherwise german losses would be even higher. In a real war scenario the germans would have suffered unsustainable losses with entire fighter groups wiped out and 262 losses beyond sustainable operations tempo...at least thats my conclusion from looking at the logs.
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Given the breakdown of squads, and their historical numbers each frame, the Axis should be able to field in excess of 350 aircraft per frame, versus 275 for the Allies. That's predicated on 275 Allied pilots and 225 Axis pilots. For frame 1, there were 247 Axis pilots and 263 Allied pilots, with a total of 375 Axis aircraft being used and 290 Allied aircraft being used. These numbers aren't vetted for all the takeoff re-ups, discos, and crashes--I'll have that data after I finish the scoring. But, clearly the Axis had an advantage in numbers of aircraft.
You sure the diffrence in aircraft numbers wasn't from the bomber formations? Don't forget those add up to three planes per pilot so that's not really the same. I know any of the scenerios I've flown in where Allies had buff formations, they greatly outnumbered the Axis in plane numbers. In this FSO Allies still had more pilots than Axis by about 20.
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That was my point about Kanalkampf. The Allies not only had the advantage in overall numbers of aircraft, but also in total number of PILOTS.
Kanalkampf numbers, Allies vs Axis:
Frame 1: 292 vs 237
Frame 2: 292 vs 216
Frame 3: 256 vs 207
Personally, I DO think that attackers that are rolling buff formations SHOULD have fewer pilots since a big chunk of theirs have multiple aircraft to keep things even, but if the scenario of Kanalkampf called for Allies to have more pilots, this campaign is a reversal of the situation so why not give the Axis more pilots?
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this campaign is a reversal of the situation so why not give the Axis more pilots?
This campaign is not a reversal of Kanalkampf. It is set up using a fictional, but plausible, background story. The numbers exist for balance purposes, and nothing more.
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The 262 units were relatively inneffective and suffered high losses.
Could that be attributed to the fact that perhaps many of the pilots never fly a 262 before this night? I know I never did (although I landed successfully at the end of the mission). How many crashed on their own and how many actually got shot down? I haven't scanned the logs to find out, but would be curious.
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Could that be attributed to the fact that perhaps many of the pilots never fly a 262 before this night? I know I never did (although I landed successfully at the end of the mission). How many crashed on their own and how many actually got shot down? I haven't scanned the logs to find out, but would be curious.
AoM (Army of Muppets) is a very seasoned bunch top to bottom, also a very aggresive bunch of guys. They'll certainly take advantage of any break they get, but if it works out against them they'll follow Pickett up Cemetary Ridge also. So while some may be due to inexperience etc, AoM is as close to a squad of "expertain" as you'll find. They suffered 88% attrition (8 out of 9). We (USMC/71SQ) lost all but 1 of our 109K's. Historically we often rank near the top performance wise in FSO as well. For both of those seasoned squads to suffer such catostophic losses is very rare. If this was a scenario where you carried your losses over 2 very seasoned squads would be non exisistant for the balance.
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It makes absolutely no sense... with reduced icon range, the 262s should be cleaning house.
The Axis best bet is to leave them in groups of 3s and attach them to regular prop a/c squadrons, a pack of 262s is nice but not terribly effective.
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As a player in a seasoned FSO squad, yeah, we've had our butts handed to us many times. We shrug it off and train to avoid further repeats of that performance. Sometimes you're windshield, sometimes you're the bug. For the vets of this event, it's what causes our love/hate relationship with our beloved FSO.
As an FSO CM, I am thrilled to see this debate and discussion. With our event growing to the point it has, there are many new players and squads. They are getting to experience how crucial the CiC role is and how much dependence is on a strong commander. Remember, the team is only as strong as it's leader and his/her plan. I am not degrading this specific event's CiC's. Just using them as an example.
Planning is crucial. I think the Admin's do a great job in designing these events to ensure that the maximum number of players have fun but part of the overall scope of the event is the player interaction and command. Like I said, sometimes you're the wind......
Looking forward to frame two!
:salute
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Could that be attributed to the fact that perhaps many of the pilots never fly a 262 before this night? I know I never did (although I landed successfully at the end of the mission). How many crashed on their own and how many actually got shot down? I haven't scanned the logs to find out, but would be curious.
I don't think that was much of a factor IMHO. I fly 262's quite often and I never had a chance in the FSO to even fire my guns because of the sheer amount of cons and their altitude. I'm also quit certain many of the guys in 262 had plenty of experience in them. The problem is they were just not suited to that fight and being way out numbered just made it nothing but dodging HO's and running like a girl.
You couldn't dare slow down to try to get a shot of a turning con because 10 others would jump you. The 262's aren't much good over 15k, so their prime fighting alts are around 15k to 8k meanwhile all the Typhs and Pony's were 20k+. So in short it was just a fight the 262's couldn't do anything with and was very under matched on top of being outnumbered over 2 to 1.
I think adding a alt cap of 15k before contact would go a long way toward helping even out the plane sets.
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As a player in a seasoned FSO squad, yeah, we've had our butts handed to us many times. We shrug it off and train to avoid further repeats of that performance. Sometimes you're windshield, sometimes you're the bug. For the vets of this event, it's what causes our love/hate relationship with our beloved FSO.
As an FSO CM, I am thrilled to see this debate and discussion. With our event growing to the point it has, there are many new players and squads. They are getting to experience how crucial the CiC role is and how much dependence is on a strong commander. Remember, the team is only as strong as it's leader and his/her plan. I am not degrading this specific event's CiC's. Just using them as an example.
Planning is crucial. I think the Admin's do a great job in designing these events to ensure that the maximum number of players have fun but part of the overall scope of the event is the player interaction and command. Like I said, sometimes you're the wind......
Looking forward to frame two!
:salute
I pretty much agree with you. You can't expect to win them all and not every FSO is going to be a blast but it sure sucks when they arent.. :furious My only hope is we can take what was learned from this frame and use it to make the next two frames a bit more fun for all.
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It makes absolutely no sense... with reduced icon range, the 262s should be cleaning house.
The Axis best bet is to leave them in groups of 3s and attach them to regular prop a/c squadrons, a pack of 262s is nice but not terribly effective.
If the fight was at lower alts and/or the allied planes were otherwise engaged yes. But a 262 vs higher (and probably more numerous) cons at alts above 25K is totally defensive.
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:O Git out! Me too :rofl
:noid
My deepest condolences.
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Our squad was flying avacados, we never saw a single enemy plane, about an hour and half round trip. Then we missed our target for the most part. The orders said the bombs will carry west, but I didn't realize that would be an entire town length west.
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You know i was looking at teh wind in E6B, and if that system works correctly the wind was blowing in the wrong direction at 18-22k, My clipboard read 090 at 28, ords/objs said it would be 135 at 28mph.
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This is very interesting. The axis were saying this was going to be a cake walk for them before, now they complain that they are illsuited to the task. From what I saw in my area flying a P-51 and observing 109 and 262 runs they didn't fly their crafts well at all. The command and control in our sector was concerned about early diction an were out of position as the kill aircraft (temps) blew their assignment. The 234 runs were not coordinated with themselves or their cover. This was either a poorly planned or probably just a poorly executed attack on their target. As to the AoM they die all the time and though they are good they will have off nights. My money is that this was just a night were they were outa position before the event even started. I promise you they will more than likely be in position next week to make a few more scores.
Vlkyrie
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Sorry to hear that 1-2 squadrons on the allied side saw no action. You can review the orders for frame 1 and see the number of pilots at each location and determine how the map was spread out. Some areas had more and some had less. The squadrons that did not see any action were small in size. Overall, nearly all allied pilots saw action. The defense groups that communicated well should have all seen action. The axis may not have sent in enough planes to the targets on the ground for the allied defense to be happy.
The axis may not have used their rides in the best mannor. For the allied, lots of thought went into which tool each squad would receive and what their job would be. How they utilized their tool was up to them. Fighting on the deck in sectors alpha, bravo, charlie and delta would only have helped the axis. Certain Plane combinations were done on purpose with multiple squads in the same area. Squads working together would only have complimented each other in combat.
Fighting a 109k below 30k in Bravo and Charlie Sectors, where the only airspace required to operate was at 30-40k, was pointless.
262s by themselves are only a nuisance. Better served as close escorts for the ar234 or as a complimentary squad to another squad in a different fighter such as a me109. The higher the 234's operate, the lower their hit percentage will be due to less time for calibration and lining up for the target. The lower they are, the easier it will be for the allied planes to acheive 2 passes. So, the axis may want to send in 109s to compete at alts below 20k, as early fighter sweeps. Then send in the 262s over the ar234s minutes behind the 109s. 109s can tnb with the tempest and P51s. The 262s can pick off any slow and high fighters they encounter fighting the allied. The 262s can also help the 109s exit the area after the bombing is done.
Sending 109s and me262s above 30k is pointless. Not using all the ta152s above 30k would be a misallocation of resources imo. Perhaps if 109s were sent to the 30-40k sectors, they would only to be there for the fight after it's pushed down below 30k since past experience shows most will happily dive to the deck in their High Alt fighters. Only more discipline would be able to defeat such a tactic.
What happens next is up to the CiCs for frame 2 and the COs of each squadron. Are the axis having a slow start in their offensive plan or are they doomed to repeat another BoB outcome of the past?
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The defense groups that communicated well should have all seen action. The axis may not have sent in enough planes to the targets on the ground for the allied defense to be happy.
As one of the defenders that saw little action I can say it wasn't because of a lack of communication. Infact, SK's, HFG's and Righteous Vengeance forced me to communicate a lot more that what I'm accustomed to in SEA. All the squads defending the city tuned to each others text channel to increase communication and I think it worked a little to well. I don't know how many planes the Axis originally sent our way but we only saw about 10 total, maybe there were more sent and just got shot down before they could make it in. But, I think because of the communication involved between the squads is why only 1 262 made it out and even he took some hits.
I don't think anyone is to blame for us seeing little action, that's just the nature of FSO. Sometimes your overwhelmed, sometimes you fly for 2 hours without seeing anything.
Lambo
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This is very interesting. The axis were saying this was going to be a cake walk for them before, now they complain that they are ill suited to the task. From what I saw in my area flying a P-51 and observing 109 and 262 runs they didn't fly their crafts well at all. The command and control in our sector was concerned about early diction an were out of position as the kill aircraft (temps) blew their assignment. The 234 runs were not coordinated with themselves or their cover. This was either a poorly planned or probably just a poorly executed attack on their target. As to the AoM they die all the time and though they are good they will have off nights. My money is that this was just a night were they were outa position before the event even started. I promise you they will more than likely be in position next week to make a few more scores.
Vlkyrie
Actually alot of folks commented that the 262 is unsuited for this type of role. As one of the 109K drivers all I can say is that we were jumped by a minimum of 3 squads (3 diff plane types), all of whom came rolling in in waves from at least 35K. I got caught in a combination of badly timed wife ack and a tough situation. I was clearing my wingman and trying to pull for a shot on a pony when the wife popped in...ARGHHH...just in that brief moment I was in a nose down full power orientation looking for a shot...blacked out, compressed....POOF.
Given the overall survival of the Arados I cant fault the plan, they just didnt hit the targets (which at that speed, alt & wind is tough to do with manual calibration). We were supposed to draw the CAP to us (and boy did we). While the 109K is certainly effective 1 on 1 vs a jug, pony or tempest at high alt it is surprisingly ineffective at the squad level since it really cant maintain alts over 32k with any maneuvering.
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Attending FSO with the Killuminati, our task was to kill 234s on there way to the troop factory. The plan was very dependent on early warning which we failed to receive. Among other factors, as 3-4 262s that came in at
25k harassed us giving the 234s a big break . They hit the troop factory coming in from NW were we had no cover IDK if any squad was even patrolling that area, We ended up meeting around the target but was to low do much but watch them fly by. They came in alot higher than was expected i say that worked well to there advantage if they hit anything :D
Nice job sneaking between the lines :salute
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This is very interesting. The axis were saying this was going to be a cake walk for them before, now they complain that they are illsuited to the task. From what I saw in my area flying a P-51 and observing 109 and 262 runs they didn't fly their crafts well at all. The command and control in our sector was concerned about early diction an were out of position as the kill aircraft (temps) blew their assignment. The 234 runs were not coordinated with themselves or their cover. This was either a poorly planned or probably just a poorly executed attack on their target. As to the AoM they die all the time and though they are good they will have off nights. My money is that this was just a night were they were outa position before the event even started. I promise you they will more than likely be in position next week to make a few more scores.
Vlkyrie
We weren't out of position at all. We did our objective which was to go be a fighter sweep at the city factory. There wasn't much we could do though in a fight that was 9 vs 20+ at high alts with flack bursts all through the fight. Thankfully Kappa was nice enough to drop alt and kill the flacks at least taking that out of the equation. We contuinued to try to complete our objective, but sometimes the impossiable can't be done.
We were never sent as a support group or cover for anyone. We were sent as a fighter sweep to do a job the plane simple wasn't meant to do. As for before hand I know I myself never said anything about it being a walk in the park for the Axis. I didn't even post in here before the event and I would have assumed the 262's would have been used in a support fashion and not how they were used.
Remember, just because we were flying the planes doesn't mean we the ones who decided how to use them in this frame or any other frame. We were handed a tool set and a job to complete, the tool set didn't mach the job that needed to be done.
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As one of the defenders that saw little action I can say it wasn't because of a lack of communication. Infact, SK's, HFG's and Righteous Vengeance forced me to communicate a lot more that what I'm accustomed to in SEA. All the squads defending the city tuned to each others text channel to increase communication and I think it worked a little to well. I don't know how many planes the Axis originally sent our way but we only saw about 10 total, maybe there were more sent and just got shot down before they could make it in. But, I think because of the communication involved between the squads is why only 1 262 made it out and even he took some hits.
I don't think anyone is to blame for us seeing little action, that's just the nature of FSO. Sometimes your overwhelmed, sometimes you fly for 2 hours without seeing anything.
Lambo
There was only 9 of us sent there 1 squad of fighters in 262. The only other thing sent there was the 234's, I'm not sure how they did because I never saw them but I know there were no other Axis fighters at the city factory but our 9 262's.
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I just don't get it. How hard is it to enjoy an event? Regardless to how you answer, the fact remains that the event is only as good as YOU make it for yourself and your squad. Kleenex are available at the out door if needed for damaged/crushed/whine-able egos.
IMHO the FSO was simply a blast! Flew with the Nightmares and found myself in a swirling dogfight at low alts. It all started at around 25k and quickly descended. At the end there were two of us ponies against a large group of Axis pilots. Seems to me the Axis did very well indeed. I ended up with credit for two enemy pilots and one of those sat down with a dead engine.
Salute to the designer AND the CM Team for a good event. It wasn't my favorite, but was a good time nonetheless.
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oh man, is sim still around :P
Glad you were back with the Nightmares SIM. Look forward to seeing you this week. Hope the weather hasn't caused you too much over time yet.
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Well Hey Sim.
Still walking the right-a-way?
:)
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forHim,
Just a bit as yet my friend! So far this year its been pretty quiet, nothing major .................YET!
Luckily the Nightmares kept my ...err........uhhh...chainsaw sharpened! Have been enjoying the FSOs lately and even the Manic Arenas. you need to check in on the latest to-dos of MGD and such. Things are starting to heat up again with some of the other sims.......
SLED,
Man we gotta talk! Doing some Utility of the Future stuff at work now. Will blow ya mind what all is going on! can you say Remote Control EVERYTHING? Now if they could only come up with something that would keep me from having to climb backline.............
Glad to see ya both!