Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: BnZ on July 12, 2008, 03:11:43 PM
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Since Sir Loin asked, here is my take on the matter:
I believe my knowledge of the fact that I am going to die and be no more, that everything I have ever loved or will love will die and be no more, that every great and wise man who has ever lived will die and be no more, that there is likely no divine help or greater purpose to existence, is slowly driving me a little insane.
I believe that if most of the populace knew this and had the I.Q. to think about it long and hard, they might also be facing a slippery slope into madness. I believe that many psychological problems of the inhabitants of Western civilization may be caused by a void in spiritual belief, brought on by the increasingly untenable nature of religion in the face of attack by zealous atheists.
Just in case anyone hasn't thought about it hard enough, death. Wormfood. Corruption of the flesh, ravens and vultures eating the tender parts of you and your lover and your puppy Skip. Or, in today's world, your blood drained and your body pickled to mortify in a sealed box 6 feet under the ground in a way that is quite possibly more disturbing than the natural process.
I believe that religious belief, for all the many, many bad things it has caused, also may have offered some sort of buffer against these realizations to the most of the population most of the time. Thus they have gotten up and worked, and eaten, and fornicated and had children, instead of slipping into depression and just laying down and dying from the weight of horrible realizations.
Of course, the trick is having a religion people believe in without having an unworkable amount of extreme oddities in your religion that make life HERE worse. Skipping meat on Friday is acceptable, "killing the unbeliever wherever you find him" is problematic.
My heart-felt prayer, offered everyday to whatever powers may be, is not for any of the things I or any other man might desire, but simply, to be proven wrong on my skepticism of the supernatural!
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Storm in a teapot.. No offense.
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Since you have no experience with death BnZ how exactly do you come by this "knowledge of the fact"?
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Sounds like bad case of cognitive dissonance..
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Since you have no experience with death BnZ how exactly do you come by this "knowledge of the fact"?
Thank you for silencing him.
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Im wondering why .....people think about this for such a long time. I can't say the thought of dying never passed my mind...I'm sure it has for most everyone.
What I am saying is...that regardless of whether you believe in God...or whatever....what purpose does it do to sit around and think of dying and wondering. You either believe in an afterlife or not. people either believe in God or they don't.
Seems like a waster of time to linger on something that is absolutley unprovable and worry about it.
Life is to short to worry about it. Live it in the way you believe will attain what it is your seeking.
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Since you have no experience with death BnZ how exactly do you come by this "knowledge of the fact"?
Well, that is true enough AK, there is no proof we will NOT encounter an afterlife.
Read carefully AK. I'm not a militant atheist; I am a reluctant one. I hope you are right (to a degree) and I am wrong.
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Well, that is true enough AK, there is no proof we will NOT encounter an afterlife.
Read carefully AK. I'm not a militant atheist; I am a reluctant one. I hope you are right (to a degree) and I am wrong.
Hope, faith, belief, those are all any of us still living have. Only fact is that you and everyone else will die, what happens to you after that cannot be known this side of the grave. This is obvious to most of us I think. Just wanted to know if you had some inside information the rest of us are not privy to. ;)
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My biggest problem with religion is the artificial notion that some believers and so-called "men of god" attempt to force on others that there's only "one" right answer. I'm looking at YOU especially, Islam and Christianity. A great deal of cultural and spiritual richness was lost and demonized by the "My way or the highway" approach taken by the Church and the radical Islamic elements, in a way that is relatively unusual in the history of human spirituality.
Compare this to the pre-Christian Romans, who saw similarities and thus adopted and integrated the Greek and other regional beliefs into their own mythology--in fact, calling Greek mythology "Greek Mythology" is ITSELF misleading, as the exact same figures in name as much as attributes existed throughout much of Europe and Asia Minor. The Romans later recognized Germanic paganism as in some ways akin to their own beliefs, rather than something alien and needing to be exterminated. Odin was recognized as sharing many aspects of Mercury by the Romans, while the Germanic tribes saw the Romans as part of Thor's cult. It wasn't until the expansion of Christianity that the Germanic/Proto-Norse Gods began to lose their positive aspects and became something wholly evil and associated with the devil. Yes, Odin was God of War and Death and could be capricious, but this was the same god who sacrificed his eye to bring the gift of poetry and inspiration, and could be as generous if amicable as he could be dangerous if irritated.
It wasn't so much the Christian FAITH in of itself that the Romans attacked, it was their fear that the Christian belief in the divinity of Christ was TREASON, due to the close association with the Caesars and the Divine (Jupiter particularly). The Hebrews were more tolerated because in large part they "played ball," and the Hebrew faith lacked this sort of direct competitor to the Emperors. The Second Temple was built by Herod largely using the wealth and power that came with cooperating with Rome. It was only destroyed because the Judeans decided they didn't want to be ruled by Rome and took up arms in an effort to throw them out, not out of active persecution of their faith.
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Interesting historical perspective. I was thinking the "Sax" in your handle was probably a musical instrument...I take it refers more to the old Anglo-Saxon utility knife?
Although I'd say a body count is still a body count, no matter the dogma one is protecting. The Romans would perhaps have no problem with me saying "My god is named Grumog, and he lives in the lake"...but they were less kind to that brave Gallic chieftan who claimed "I am a free man in a free state." So why single out religion as the evil instead looking at the larger problem of the State running amok, over and over again through human history?
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Have you ever wondered how most of the world ended up with monotheistic religions?
The Pagans, Greeks and Romans all had wonderfully rich and in their own way productive lives with their bevy of mostly fun and interesting gods, then someone comes up with the idea to replace these gods with one seriously vindictive old fart. Now who's going to buy that unless it's forced upon you?
Why would anyone want to do such a thing? Well It's a whole lot easier to control a population that has one focused point of faith than trying to direct one whos' actions vary from one god to the next.
How was this achieved? Well that's simple really, you kill everyone who is unwilling to do as you say. The Muslims still follow this doctrine.
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Feed it. Feed it. Feed that kitty.
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BnZ,
No, it's the instrument, though I HAVE recently been interested in Anglo-Saxon culture.
SD67,
Partly, I think, is because it tugs at the instinctive human fear of the unknown. From what I've read recently the Germanic tribes, Norse and their ancestors left a degree of ambiguity about death (though I've recently read there's evidence that the modern image of Heaven and Hell at least in part derived from this mythology, with the Germanic/Norse Hel serving both as Purgatory AND the place of final punishment, and some sketchy evidence of a "Heofon" paradise, at least among the pre-Christian English). Not least of which because there were so many possible destinations after death. Half the warriors slain in battle went to Odin, the others to Freyja. Rán claimed the drowned. Certain other manners of death (disease, and I THINK murder) went to Hel instead.
Also, early Christianity (Europe particular) offered an "easy out" for those who, according to Pagan beliefs, were due for some seriously bad torment in the afterlife. Granted it's a little more complicated than this, but generally from the Migration Period even up to the modern era, all one had to do was accept Christ as savior, repent of your sins, and badda-bing-badda-boom, you're on your way to paradise. Even if the wicked WERE to be punished regardless, (as I think is the case. Why would God reward a lifetime of evil actions, just because you accept Christ and say "I'm sorry! Really!" at the end?) it's still a nice feeling to think a pleasant fate for eternity is secured with a few nice words, when the Pagan beliefs didn't offer you that last chance out and salvation had to be earned in DEEDS over your whole lifetime.
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I have no problem with religion. It's the "prophets" I can't stand.
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I hear that's why Pre Christian Rome failed, they went broke from the circuses...
The Lions kept eating the prophets :D
:rofl
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Since you have no experience with death BnZ how exactly do you come by this "knowledge of the fact"?
Maybe he's Emo, if that were true, it'd be his profession.
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Pfft emos only fantasise about death. I bet if you took one and showed it death it would crap itself.
Emos, the greatest waste of oxygen ever.
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Okay, my turn of phrase was unfortunate. Try this: It seems very LIKELY to me from available evidence that death is the end and there is no supernatural. It seems to me that perhaps religion evolved once the human mind became advanced enough to comprehend its own mortality, because this knowledge is very difficult to take psychologically. This is why I think religion has stuck with us to this very day and may actually be nessecary, despite the many problems various religions have caused. Better?
What the devil is emo? Is that like an emu? :huh
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Emo is the new goth with fewer reasons to live.
I've actually been dead for a few minutes. Unfortunately I didn't learn my lesson and it took about 10 more years of bad habits before I came around. BUT I've had a peek of what's in store.
It's not going to be the same for everyone, but death is just another step. Read up on some of the Buddhist teachings. From what I experienced these guys are probably the closest of the lot to the truth.
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Okay, my turn of phrase was unfortunate. Try this: It seems very LIKELY to me from available evidence that death is the end and there is no supernatural. It seems to me that perhaps religion evolved once the human mind became advanced enough to comprehend its own mortality, because this knowledge is very difficult to take psychologically. This is why I think religion has stuck with us to this very day and may actually be nessecary, despite the many problems various religions have caused. Better?
What the devil is emo? Is that like an emu? :huh
I'm Catholic, I've never declared war on a country. Fanatics do that. But, you try and sound philosophical on your death bed. NOONE is "ready for death". You'll want another minute of life, even 30 seconds.
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. NOONE is "ready for death". You'll want another minute of life, even 30 seconds.
You're damn right I will. Did it sound like I thought something else?
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You're damn right I will. Did it sound like I thought something else?
Yes.
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What the devil is emo? Is that like an emu? :huh
Bunch of loosers having a pitty party.
From Wiki
As certain fashion trends and attitudes began to be associated with "emo", stereotypes emerged that created a specific target for criticism. In the early 2000s, the criticism was relatively light-hearted and self-effacing. In ensuing years, the derision increased dramatically. Fans of emo are often presumed by others to be homosexual, this is largely a reflection of the style of dress popular within the "emo scene" and the purported displays of emotion common in the scene. Complaints pointed to the histrionic manner in which the emotions were expressed.
In October of 2003, a Punk Planet contributor leveled the charge that the current era of emo was sexist. Hopper argued that where bands such as Jawbox, Jawbreaker and Sunny Day Real Estate had characterized women in such a way that they were not "exclusively defined by their absence or lensed through romantic-specter", contemporary bands approached relationship issues by "damning the girl on the other side ... its woman-induced misery has gone from being descriptive to being prescriptive." Regarding the position of women listening to emo, the contributor went on to note that the music had become "just another forum where women were locked in a stasis of outside observation, observing ourselves through the eyes of others."
Critics of modern emo have argued that there is a tendency toward increasingly generic and homogenized style.
In 2008, Time Magazine reported that "anti-emo" groups attacked teenagers in Mexico City, Santiago de Querétaro, and Tijuana.
Emo music has been blamed for the suicide by hanging of Hannah Bond by both the coroner at the inquest into her death and her mother, Heather Bond, after it was claimed that emo music glamorized suicide and her apparent obsession with the emo band, My Chemical Romance was said to be linked to her suicide. The inquest heard that she was part of an internet "emo" cult and her Bebo page contained an image of an 'emo girl' with bloody wrists. It was also revealed that she had discussed "the glamour of hanging" online and had explained to her parents that her self harming was an "emo initiation ceremony". Heather Bond criticised emo fashion, saying: "There are 'emo' websites that show pink teddies hanging themselves." After the verdict was reported in NME, fans of emo music contacted the magazine to defend against accusations that it promotes self harm and suicide.
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I believe that many psychological problems of the inhabitants of Western civilization may be caused by a void in spiritual belief, brought on by the increasingly untenable nature of religion in the face of attack by zealous atheists.
I believe that religious belief, for all the many, many bad things it has caused, also may have offered some sort of buffer against these realizations..
My heart-felt prayer, offered everyday to whatever powers may be, is not for any of the things I or any other man might desire, but simply, to be proven wrong on my skepticism of the supernatural!
So the decline in Western civilization is caused by lack of faith?Give me one example please...I'll give you two examples of people that were non believers and helped shape the rights of Americans to this day..Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln(& perhaps even Thomas Payne..his death bed story where he refused a minister's offer of salvation)
You may be an athiest in your disbelief of God,and your wish(or daily prayer) that you be proven wrong.
I am thankfull that there is absolutely no evidence to support such a horrible proposition..a diety or celestial dictatorship.I can't understand why anyone like yourself would wish it to be true...That's why i'm an anti-theist and not an athiest.
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Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kla-BcN8u8Q&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kla-BcN8u8Q&feature=related) all three parts and then explain to me that you still belive. :uhoh
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yet another absolutely ignorant statement from the town drama queen....
NOONE is "ready for death". You'll want another minute of life, even 30 seconds.
tell that to someone dying of some hideously painful and debilitating terminal disease........
like I told you in another thread...THINK .....then type......you still have that process backwards.
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well, if there is no existence after death you will not know it. And if there is what will it be like , and how long will that last? Eternity can be a very long time.
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So the decline in Western civilization is caused by lack of faith?
Eh, I'd be more inclined to say that perhaps many are suffering from a general malaise caused by the apparent non-existence of traditionally accepted supernatural institutions.. People seem to have a need for a spiritual life, whether or not spirits exist. The brain even seems hard-wired to have religous experiences. We can speak of the ills wrought by Christian zealots, or zealots of any other religion, but I don't think you can totally discount the comfort millions have recieved from religious belief.
I am a believer in rational thinking and the scientific method. But it hasn't solved the problem of mortality, nor does that seem likely in the forseeable future. Even if medical science can eventually defeat death, it can do nothing for the millions who have already gone before, their hopes, dreams, knowledge, their unique selves wiped out forver, if athiestic suspicions are correct. Science can tell us that the universe itself is mortal, and can do even less about it than it can do about human mortality. Nor has science solved the deep flaws in human nature that lead so often to misery, even in the absence of material problems.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but shall have ever-lasting life." -John 3:16
"No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path... One that we all must take. The grey rain curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass. And then you see it. White shores... And beyond. A far green country, under a swift sunrise." -Gandalf, The Return of the King
Are all beliefs like this just stories we tell each other in the dark? Perhaps, but atheists haven't offered anyone anything better.
I am thankfull that there is absolutely no evidence to support such a horrible proposition..a diety or celestial dictatorship.I can't understand why anyone like yourself would wish it to be true...That's why i'm an anti-theist and not an athiest.
Be careful that your opposition to dogma does not itself become a dogma.
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But it hasn't solved the problem of mortality, nor does that seem likely in the forseeable future. Even if medical science can eventually defeat death, it can do nothing for the millions who have already gone before, their hopes, dreams, knowledge, their unique selves wiped out forver, if athiestic suspicions are correct. Science can tell us that the universe itself is mortal, and can do even less about it than it can do about human mortality. Nor has science solved the deep flaws in human nature that lead so often to misery, even in the absence of material problems.
. http://www.mfoundation.org/sens
. This hasn't come up sooner because of technological progress (or lack thereof), which is in no small part because of a lack of discipline and education, as well as a dogmatic resignation to the assumption that death is immutable. And I mean old age death, not fall off a cliff death. So it's not "science" that's to blame for the countless lives lost to senescence...
. Science is a process. It doesn't "tell" anyone anything. It's just an empirical tool for the empiricaly minded. The stairs of progress grow upwards under the feet of scientific progress, and while it may well be an infinite recursion past the visible horizon, the "deep flaws in human nature" such as "misery" are IMO neither thanks to nor because of science or religion. More often than not "misery" is inherent to people's state of mind. Faulty fundamental premises that only lead so far.
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Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kla-BcN8u8Q&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kla-BcN8u8Q&feature=related) all three parts and then explain to me that you still belive. :uhoh
I still believe. This is just another yadda yadda way to look at it. So...you want people to believe in the Sun? Ok...fine...no biggie...instead of Jesus we'll have Sunny. :rolleyes:
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I still believe. This is just another yadda yadda way to look at it. So...you want people to believe in the Sun? Ok...fine...no biggie...instead of Jesus we'll have Sunny. :rolleyes:
Well,we used to have polytheism(many gods Apollo,Zues etc)..Now it's monotheism(one god).
We're getting closer to the true # all the time..Just need to go one God more.
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before you where born, you dont remember pain or anything else, so why the fear of death ?
its part of the circle of life, born, raise children, then die,
hey but it can be alot of fun between this things ! ;)
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before you where born, you dont remember pain or anything else, so why the fear of death ?
its part of the circle of life, born, raise children, then die,
hey but it can be alot of fun between this things ! ;)
Well said.Why not take life for what it is without this afterlife/supernatural stuff ?
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Well said.Why not take life for what it is without this afterlife/supernatural stuff ?
Those who like to believe in a heaven and an afterlife , may ask the same of you.....why worry about what it says on money...public buildings....so on and so on....if you don't believe in God...why is it such a big deal?
Why is it that the words..."In God we trust" such a huge thing to people that don't believe in god?
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Why is it that the words..."In God we trust" such a huge thing to people that don't believe in god?
Why are you trying to speak for me ?
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The words "In God we trust" on a currency is an example about just that Redtop.
Wonder who invented this advertising thing heh
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Why are you trying to speak for me ?
Wasn't trying to speak for you...my apologies if it sounded that way.......
Just generally asking a question. I sort of took it from your posts that you are an athiest. No offense meant there SirLoin :)
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Sorry I didn't read all three pages of posts...
A major part of becoming a mature adult is the slow dawning realization that you aren't going to be the one person in the history of the world to live forever.
Welcome to reality.
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Wasn't trying to speak for you...my apologies if it sounded that way.......
Just generally asking a question. I sort of took it from your posts that you are an athiest. No offense meant there SirLoin :)
I'm an anti-theist..not an Atheist..There is a big difference which i have already explained in this thread.
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I'm an anti-theist..not an Atheist..There is a big difference which i have already explained in this thread.
I wiki ed the two definitions but don't see the difference please enlighten me?
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tell that to someone dying of some hideously painful and debilitating terminal disease........
like I told you in another thread...THINK .....then type......you still have that process backwards.
You have a point. I'd hate to think of it that way though.
I wouldn't wanna die, I'd like to have that 30 seconds to a minute left to breathe, but if I was in extreme pain or torture, I'd just want it to end.
Why is it that the words..."In God we trust" such a huge thing to people that don't believe in god?
You know that those people getting offended by it are only something like 15%? Last I checked, and it somehow got out-lawed in California...
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I believe my knowledge of the fact that I am going to die and be no more, that everything I have ever loved or will love will die and be no more, that every great and wise man who has ever lived will die and be no more, that there is likely no divine help or greater purpose to existence, is slowly driving me a little insane.
That is what keeps me sane. If what the religious types were saying was correct it would slowly drive me insane. A heaven were you could meet people that died? lol how would that work out if you say married again after one you loved died? Would you be allowed to date em both in heaven? What age would you be? The age you died at? That would be fun for all those who dies at 99 and gets to look and feel like that for eternity :rofl
You die and thats it. Thank cod for that. How people can fall for religion in these days is beyond me. Its good business for some I guess.
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Both you theists and atheists are going round and round the fishbowl with no certain answer in sight. You're spending time here on earth on some astronomical bet that you can't even figure out the odds for. It's a waste of time. Life isn't waiting for you, and no amount of time and effort spent fancying one post-mortem possibility or another will make anything here on earth get better or worse.
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Why is it that the words..."In God we trust" such a huge thing to people that don't believe in god?
Do you want "In God we trust" on your money and public buildings? Why?
The God that some believe in, might not be the God that others believe in. Spirituality, in it's purest form, should be a very private matter, not something you post on a building or currency. :aok
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You know that those people getting offended by it are only something like 15%? Last I checked, and it somehow got out-lawed in California...
Maybe, because it is against the law. :aok
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Perhaps they just didn't have room for the last line...
You know the one...
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"Everyone else pays cash"
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:rofl
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Both you theists and atheists are going round and round the fishbowl with no certain answer in sight. You're spending time here on earth on some astronomical bet that you can't even figure out the odds for. It's a waste of time.
It's not a waste of time and with the Hubble telescope,important discoveries are being made all the time...The Mars probe lands and after the bosters shut off,the dust settles..Low and behold it lands on a patch of ice(frozen water).
And when microscopic life is found on Mars(and they will find this),it will redraw the map on "how we got here"..But the religious will say like they did with dinosaur fossils..That God put the micro-organisms in the ice on Mars "to test our faith"
Anyhow,it sure beats scouring the earth for Noah's Ark or Mose's burning bush.
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It's not a waste of time and with the Hubble telescope,important discoveries are being made all the time...The Mars probe lands and after the bosters shut off,the dust settles..Low and behold it lands on a patch of ice(frozen water).
And when microscopic life is found on Mars(and they will find this),it will redraw the map on "how we got here"..But the religious will say like they did with dinosaur fossils..That God put the micro-organisms in the ice on Mars "to test our faith"
Anyhow,it sure beats scouring the earth for Noah's Ark or Mose's burning bush.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but didn't they find Noah's Ark? In turkey or something?
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In a conveniently inaccessible glacier-encased spot that they have the word of maybe 2-3 people to go on, IIRC.
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And when microscopic life is found on Mars(and they will find this),it will redraw the map on "how we got here"..But the religious will say like they did with dinosaur fossils..That God put the micro-organisms in the ice on Mars "to test our faith"
Funny, I've never heard or read any religious writer who said that God created fossils as a trick to test the belief of the faithful. And I've read or heard a great deal of what they have to say. I read a sci-fi story vaguely along those lines once, but that was it.
Don't put words in people's mouths to make them look stupid, concocting a paper tiger like this to tear down, that is fairly lame. If you want to say "Christians who reject the theory of evolution are wrong, and heres why..." then say that in a civilized manner and I will agree with you 100%
BTW, I have never found the part of the Bible that says there cannot be life on Mars or other planets, etc. Even intelligent life, Fermi paradox aside. Thus, I do not know how such a belief came to be a Christian doctrine, if it is such.
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Well there's the whole part about God creating man in his image. Human ego alone would all but ensure that the concept of intelligent life on other planets would be seen as threatening by religious conservatives.
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Funny, I've never heard or read any religious writer who said that God created fossils as a trick to test the belief of the faithful. And I've read or heard a great deal of what they have to say. I read a sci-fi story vaguely along those lines once, but that was it.
Don't put words in people's mouths to make them look stupid, concocting a paper tiger like this to tear down, that is fairly lame. If you want to say "Christians who reject the theory of evolution are wrong, and heres why..." then say that in a civilized manner and I will agree with you 100%
BTW, I have never found the part of the Bible that says there cannot be life on Mars or other planets, etc. Even intelligent life, Fermi paradox aside. Thus, I do not know how such a belief came to be a Christian doctrine, if it is such.
Why don't you visit the creationism museum in Ohio...Where you can see anamatronic children playing with anamatronic (and saddled) dinosours..Ask someone who works there how the fossils got in the rocks...Don't let him put words in your mouth though.
And the Bible doesn't mention Mars or other planets because the men who wrote the book "didn't know they existed"..Much like why marcupials are never mentioned in the good book.
Christians who don't believe in evolution are wrong,as i have explained in many threads if you care to search.
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Why don't you visit the creationism museum in Ohio...Where you can see anamatronic children playing with anamatronic (and saddled) dinosours..Ask someone who works there how the fossils got in the rocks...Don't let him put words in your mouth though.
I know what Creationists believe. They will say that those dinosaur bones were buried in the great flood. Granted, they are wrong, but you implied they believe God put those bones in the ground so good Christians would dig them up, weigh the evidence, and then reject the existence of dinosaurs out of hand because they aren't mentioned in the Bible or some such. This would be several magnitudes more wrong, and frankly would make for a pretty messed-up God.
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I know what Creationists believe. They will say that those dinosaur bones were buried in the great flood. Granted, they are wrong, but you implied they believe God put those bones in the ground so good Christians would dig them up, weigh the evidence, and then reject the existence of dinosaurs out of hand because they aren't mentioned in the Bible or some such. This would be several magnitudes more wrong, and frankly would make for a pretty messed-up God.
You must have gotten lucky and not went to Catholic school.
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It's not a waste of time and with the Hubble telescope,important discoveries are being made all the time...The Mars probe lands and after the bosters shut off,the dust settles..Low and behold it lands on a patch of ice(frozen water).
And when microscopic life is found on Mars(and they will find this),it will redraw the map on "how we got here"..But the religious will say like they did with dinosaur fossils..That God put the micro-organisms in the ice on Mars "to test our faith"
Anyhow,it sure beats scouring the earth for Noah's Ark or Mose's burning bush.
I'm talking about atheists and theists arguing on and on with each other about whether there is or isn't something they can't detect for sure. In the mean time, the sand glass of their life here on earth keeps flowing regardless of their grasping at thin air. Whatever happens will happen, and if you can't figure what it will be, it's all in vain :) It seems entirely more sensible to me to take care of the here and now.
Re: Mars etc: They already were fairly certain that that patch of ground was ice. It was visible in the radar from orbit. There's no "lo and behold" in that "discovery"... The Hubble telescope has made only empirical discoveries, nothing for or against anything supernatural. You don't have evidence that the Mars lander (or the next, or the sample return in the cards for ~2020) will find life. If you're certain of it, it's a leap of faith.
I do agree that if life (a pretty badly defined notion) was found, literal interpreters of holy scripture would need to revise their perspective, just as flat earthers did before them, etc etc. That's nothing new though, and doesn't say anything about science or religion, so much as about the people dogmaticaly reducing their perspective to some shallow understanding of either or both.
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Why don't you visit the creationism museum in Ohio...Where you can see anamatronic children playing with anamatronic (and saddled) dinosours..Ask someone who works there how the fossils got in the rocks...Don't let him put words in your mouth though.
And the Bible doesn't mention Mars or other planets because the men who wrote the book "didn't know they existed"..Much like why marcupials are never mentioned in the good book.
Christians who don't believe in evolution are wrong,as i have explained in many threads if you care to search.
Again, unless I'm mistaken, they had identified several planets back then. Or at least they could tell that they weren't just stars. For example, Mars. Mars was identified as Lucifer, the light bringer, the fallen angel, best known as the Devil.
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Again, unless I'm mistaken, they had identified several planets back then. Or at least they could tell that they weren't just stars. For example, Mars. Mars was identified as Lucifer, the light bringer, the fallen angel, best known as the Devil.
Nowhere in the Bible are stars or planets stated as such...If the good book stated them as planets,suns and solar systems,that would be evidence that the Bible is the literal word of a God...Instead,the Bible gets it all wrong and is evidence itself that religion is man-made.
Our first attempt at geology,astronomy and philosophy..And a failed attempt at that.
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Since Sir Loin asked, here is my take on the matter:
I believe my knowledge of the fact that I am going to die and be no more, that everything I have ever loved or will love will die and be no more, that every great and wise man who has ever lived will die and be no more, that there is likely no divine help or greater purpose to existence, is slowly driving me a little insane.
I believe that if most of the populace knew this and had the I.Q. to think about it long and hard, they might also be facing a slippery slope into madness. I believe that many psychological problems of the inhabitants of Western civilization may be caused by a void in spiritual belief, brought on by the increasingly untenable nature of religion in the face of attack by zealous atheists.
Just in case anyone hasn't thought about it hard enough, death. Wormfood. Corruption of the flesh, ravens and vultures eating the tender parts of you and your lover and your puppy Skip. Or, in today's world, your blood drained and your body pickled to mortify in a sealed box 6 feet under the ground in a way that is quite possibly more disturbing than the natural process.
I believe that religious belief, for all the many, many bad things it has caused, also may have offered some sort of buffer against these realizations to the most of the population most of the time. Thus they have gotten up and worked, and eaten, and fornicated and had children, instead of slipping into depression and just laying down and dying from the weight of horrible realizations.
Of course, the trick is having a religion people believe in without having an unworkable amount of extreme oddities in your religion that make life HERE worse. Skipping meat on Friday is acceptable, "killing the unbeliever wherever you find him" is problematic.
My heart-felt prayer, offered everyday to whatever powers may be, is not for any of the things I or any other man might desire, but simply, to be proven wrong on my skepticism of the supernatural!
Religion is intimately connected with social and monetary control (ruthless power), nothing more, nothing less. That's my viewpoint. I have a scientific approach and it does not bother me one bit that I will one day rot away and return to dust that will spin around this sun until time as we know it ends. We are all part of this celestial body we call Earth, does it really bother you that much that worms (or anything else for that matter) will eat you? I'd be bothered if I'd be alive but since I'd be dead, no. :)
The one and only type of God or higher being I'd be willing to accept, not as god but as fellow species, would be life from other planets. Let's face it, we have few real answers of the universe. In fact we have more questions than answers, and every new answer raises more questions. So it's anyone's guess really. I'm not ruling out the existence of aliens. Would they visit earth, they could very well be percieved as God(s). I'm not even ruling out the existence of God. It's just that what you "believers" take for evidence, I find is nonsense.
Are you seriously that bothered with life, that you question it? Ever had a gun fired at you? Or a knife stuck in between your shoulder blades? I assume not for life would be a most welcome experience to you if you had lived through such an event. I'm sure, for I have. You would spend less time worrying about it, and enjoy each and every day of your life more than you previously could have imagined. Take nothing for granted, and you will not mourn it's loss, not even your own life. This is what will free your mind and soul. Not money, power, love, or property.
My point is, religion is absolutely not vital. It's our environment that is decieving (especially other human beings), taking advantage of us in our craving for safety and comfort. A craving which is desirable to all who seek to control us, but utterly unnecessary and false. We as human beings part of this world we live in have nothing to fear, nothing, but ourselves and our own stupidity.
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That is because the Good Book (bible) is a description of the sun ,planets and constellations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kla-BcN8u8Q&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kla-BcN8u8Q&feature=related)
Watch and learn
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That is because the Good Book (bible) is a description of the sun ,planets and constellations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kla-BcN8u8Q&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kla-BcN8u8Q&feature=related)
Watch and learn
You'll notice the # 12 comes up often in religion(proof that religions are all plagerisms of each other,the worst being Islam)..The same with virgin births..In fact name me one religion that doesn't espouse that veiw.
Btw..Did u kow that Buddah was born through a slit through his mother's side(and some say Buddism is not a religion,but a way of life..bs)...And notice religion's disdain for the female birth canal?..a "one way street" according to ALL scripture.Nothing ever goes in there.The loathing of menstral blood,the woman being an afterthought of God,made from a chunk of Adam's rib..etc...Again,evidence in itself that religion is MAN made...and it shows.
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You'll notice the # 12 comes up often in religion(proof that religions are all plagerisms of each other,the worst being Islam)..The same with virgin births..In fact name me one religion that doesn't espouse that veiw.
Btw..Did u kow that Buddah was born through a slit through his mother's side(and some say Buddism is not a religion,but a way of life..bs)...And notice religion's disdain for the female birth canal?..a "one way street" according to ALL scripture.Nothing ever goes in there..Again,evidence in itself that religion is MAN made...and it shows.
Exactly that is what the video pretains to, the simularities of all the religions, that they are all stories.
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What is this, "you believers" stuff? I made my doubts very clear on page 1.
Well, frankly, yes, the lack of some sort of personal immortality is something that bothers me. Somewhat for myself, more so for those who have died, and will die, before me. I did not realize before posting this thread that this is feeling so darn abherent....I actually would have thought that more of the ummm, "un-faithful" would have faced similar things. I believe people who are sure they will "meet on that beautiful shore" or whatever tend to be happier than me.
What is this about me being shot at or stabbed? Where have I evinced some sort of desire to die?
Religion is intimately connected with social and monetary control (ruthless power), nothing more, nothing less. That's my viewpoint. I have a scientific approach and it does not bother me one bit that I will one day rot away and return to dust that will spin around this sun until time as we know it ends. We are all part of this celestial body we call Earth, does it really bother you that much that worms (or anything else for that matter) will eat you? I'd be bothered if I'd be alive but since I'd be dead, no. :)
The one and only type of God or higher being I'd be willing to accept, not as god but as fellow species, would be life from other planets. Let's face it, we have few real answers of the universe. In fact we have more questions than answers, and every new answer raises more questions. So it's anyone's guess really. I'm not ruling out the existence of aliens. Would they visit earth, they could very well be percieved as God(s). I'm not even ruling out the existence of God. It's just that what you "believers" take for evidence, I find is nonsense.
Are you seriously that bothered with life, that you question it? Ever had a gun fired at you? Or a knife stuck in between your shoulder blades? I assume not for life would be a most welcome experience to you if you had lived through such an event. I'm sure, for I have. You would spend less time worrying about it, and enjoy each and every day of your life more than you previously could have imagined. Take nothing for granted, and you will not mourn it's loss, not even your own life. This is what will free your mind and soul. Not money, power, love, or property.
My point is, religion is absolutely not vital. It's our environment that is decieving (especially other human beings), taking advantage of us in our craving for safety and comfort. A craving which is desirable to all who seek to control us, but utterly unnecessary and false. We as human beings part of this world we live in have nothing to fear, nothing, but ourselves and our own stupidity.
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Perhaps I'm mistaken, but didn't they find Noah's Ark? In turkey or something?
No.
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What is this, "you believers" stuff? I made my doubts very clear on page 1.
Well, frankly, yes, the lack of some sort of personal immortality is something that bothers me. Somewhat for myself, more so for those who have died, and will die, before me. I did not realize before posting this thread that this is feeling so darn abherent....I actually would have thought that more of the ummm, "un-faithful" would have faced similar things. I believe people who are sure they will "meet on that beautiful shore" or whatever tend to be happier than me.
What is this about me being shot at or stabbed? Where have I evinced some sort of desire to die?
What I posted was in no way aimed directly at you, it was a general statement. As I did not read any replies to your original post, I quoted you to (in case the thread had by chance derailed since then) bring it back to topic. I apologize for not being clear enough.
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