Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Oldman731 on July 12, 2008, 09:57:30 PM
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The War setups have been running since January 2008. For the first four months (at least) of that time one of the chief complaints that I heard was about the off-hours milking. In response to this fairly constant criticism, we have the now-famous Rule Six.
Recently there have been complaints from the other end of the spectrum, along the lines of "now people are afraid to go in if there's no one there."
So it seems to me that this is a good time to start discussing the matter again, now that we have a more complete experience. Unless I'm missing something big, it boils down to this: Are you willing to accept the milking casualties in exchange for relaxation of the anti-milking rules?
So what do youse guys think?
- oldman
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I think that and the budget idea has failed. If the CO of either side selects a bad setup the whole scenario goes down in flames. I haven't flown there much recently because I'm sick of having only one or 2 aircraft available. At the same time each field seems to have different planes available. I've actually been going into the MA or not flying at all. Squads that try to fly a particular aircraft (353rd prefer the P51 and 47 for instance) sometimes don't get the chance to do so. So what's the point? Why not allow squads to submit their preferred aircraft like in the FSO and if the scenario allows, let them fly them? I would also restrict the AvA to set times and days. May 3 or 4 days a week for a set 4 hours during the week and higher during the weekend. Just throwing ideas out but the current Titanic is sinking in my opinion.
We do appreciate the AvA staff's work holding it together. :salute
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I think that it is about time to relax period. :D I say give off peak hours players a neutral area (country) to pork away without endangering the premature map reset.
Well summed up Hamltnblue. I think when we force too many limitations at once we exclude those that we do not intend to.
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Rule 6 hasn't killed the arena all by itself. Was really just the last straw that broke the camels back.
The war scoring system + the economy + field and plane placement + milk running complaints + player interest in furballing vs warfighting + no casual play.
All together = an empty arena.
Scoring:
I still agree that the war set up is the way to go. But until all aspects of play directly contribute to the final tally there's no point in doing the was set up. Furballers kills need to count against the score.
The score doesn't need to effect the economy. Rather than lowering the economy from week to week, just tally up victory points each round.
Economy + Field & Plane Placement:
No one is happy with this aspect. It is obvious now that peoples interests are flying the planes they want to fly. The war is secondary. In order to fly what they want to fly, and not have to burn an extra half an hour flying from rear bases the players have spoken. They'd rather just go to the other arena's.
Using the same spending model we have now I suggest this change. Increase the current funds. Anywhere from 50% to 100%. We need to be able to fly more types of planes from more places. In addition each choice now populates 3 fields. So for the same price that you put down 1 BF-109K-4 before. You now put down 3 BF-109K-4 at different bases.
Another idea is to have all planes available to a side, available at all fields. Or at all fields they purchase. (Requires splitting up the funds into categories, or setting a price for air fields/vehicle fields/naval yards, an adding them to the list.)
These should help increase the casual play aspect of the arena. If playing in the arena is a hassle or too much of an inconvenience the players will go elsewhere. You can't plan it out completely like a scenario in the way the FSO runs. People don't have time to play something like the FSO every night.
Milkrunning Issue
This isn't an issue with the above implemented. You only feel the milk running aspect when you have such limited spawn points that the enemy is able to knock you completely out of play. Milk running was a side effect of the economy. Increase the launch points to the point that it is impractical to even attempt to knock out the other sides ability to lift off and the problem goes away.
Even if it wasn't the players need to understand that there are no such things as off hours. It's a 24-7 arena. There is no time you could shut the arena down that would not be unfair to some chunk of players. Prime time is different even for players in the same time zone.
Besides no group of casual players have shown the ability to stop an organized bomber raid. Those same 5-6 players accused of milk running could get together and run that same B17 raids at 6PM PST on a Friday or Saturday night with 50 people in the arena and the bombers would still get through with minimal fighting. They might not make it back to base, but short of blind dumb luck by the other side they'll get through to their targets.
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Oldman, do you guys have any access to arena logs? Or is it all manual where you have to log on and check to see what the state of the map is at that time?
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I would also restrict the AvA to set times and days. May 3 or 4 days a week for a set 4 hours during the week and higher during the weekend.
If a war or setup means the arena has to be closed except on certain days, the problem is The War not the people wanting to fly off peak hours.
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So it seems to me that this is a good time to start discussing the matter again, now that we have a more complete experience. Unless I'm missing something big, it boils down to this: Are you willing to accept the milking casualties in exchange for relaxation of the anti-milking rules?
So what do youse guys think?
- oldman
With the correct setup milking can nullified, the ability to switch sides in a reasonable amount of time(30 mins), etc...
So I think it is ridiculous to talk about milk-running as a seperate concern and we whould be talking about setups as a whole.
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Oldman, do you guys have any access to arena logs? Or is it all manual where you have to log on and check to see what the state of the map is at that time?
We do not have the logs, Trukk.
- oldman
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If we're talking strictly about rules then yes. Relaxing the rules would be a good start. If we are speaking of altering the current setup to improve gameplay, I believe that Diamontes post (btw, do you ever post anything less than a dissertation? :D) has merit. I do believe that altering the setup would need to be included as well to become a little more inviting to the non-regulars.
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Diamontes post (btw, do you ever post anything less than a dissertation? :D)
NO HE DOESN'T :rolleyes:
He does it on the radio on squad nights as well. ;)
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We do not have the logs, Trukk.
Bummer.
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I believe that Diamontes post (btw, do you ever post anything less than a dissertation? :D) has merit. I do believe that altering the setup would need to be included as well to become a little more inviting to the non-regulars.
On occasion.......
Haha see I tried to just post that but couldn't. :rofl
I just hate posting half a thought then having to come back and re-explain all the pieces people don't get. The n again I end up having to do that anyway since you guys don't always read the wall of text. :rofl
In my defense if the arena was cooking I wouldn't have time to type these things. :)
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This is a WWII combat simulator. The vast majority of people pay to play a combat simulator. The war should be a backdrop to the fight. Yes the war is important as an interesting backdrop, but it should be secondary. The problem is people are putting the war first over gameplay making the combat simulator part no fun. Some are trying to smash the ability of the other side to even play a combat simulator by shutting down fields or through rules. :huh
Pork away. Does it really matter in the end. I'd much rather have people get the arena going and have fun playing a combat simulator in an interesting setup. Use small downtimes to help keep the fight going in this combat simulator and make porking have less of an impact. Have smaller one week wars. You can even use the same map over again but reset. The winner is the side that captures the most fields but we never get to the boring end game that these long strategy wars have. Have all the appropriate planes and armor available for the time period at all fields so people can play this combat simulator.
In summary, put the empasis on what this game is, a WWII combat simulator. Pork away.
Thanks,
Venom
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This is a WWII combat simulator. The vast majority of people pay to play a combat simulator. The war should be a backdrop to the fight. Yes the war is important as an interesting backdrop, but it should be secondary. The problem is people are putting the war first over gameplay making the combat simulator part no fun. Some are trying to smash the ability of the other side to even play a combat simulator by shutting down fields or through rules. :huh
Pork away. Does it really matter in the end. I'd much rather have people get the arena going and have fun playing a combat simulator in an interesting setup. Use small downtimes to help keep the fight going in this combat simulator and make porking have less of an impact. Have smaller one week wars. You can even use the same map over again but reset. The winner is the side that captures the most fields but we never get to the boring end game that these long strategy wars have. Have all the appropriate planes and armor available for the time period at all fields so people can play this combat simulator.
In summary, put the empasis on what this game is, a WWII combat simulator. Pork away.
Thanks,
Venom
You've got the right idea, don't give up.
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From the other thread...
We need a smaller map. :aok At the very least, disable or make neutral 1/2 of the bases on the current map.
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I like what A4944 says. I don't like the suggestion of a smaller map, a smaller map forces a quicker fight which is fine for some but not for a bomber formation trying to join up, it is not possible to achieve a combat formation at 6K or 8K unless you want airstarts. If you favor a smaller map why not just up closer to the
front?
Maj OldBull
XO Avengers
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Oldbull, imagine if the current map's front were half as long, but it still had the same horizontal depth. I think you'd still be able to run good B-17 missions in a map like that.
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Because there are no planes along the front. Funds didn't allow enough space to put planes on the front line.
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(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a207/RTR421/ahss3.jpg)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a207/RTR421/ahss0-1.jpg)
A73, 72,71,75. 63 & 35. All undefendable from milking.
Is milking happening here?
You tell me....couldn't get a response on 200 and looks like an auger when I got too close.
dar all porked etc etc etc.
Pretty lame to pork numerous Dar and then auger when found.
You know, I actually had some fun in the AVA a couple nights ago, of course a certain squad didn't seem to be in attendance. (maybe there was too many old sticks in attendance for them to be comfortable with..I dunno).
Seems most evenings when I log in this is what I see instead though. No fights, just the same squad milking the arena for all it's worth. I mean really...for a bit there tonight I was the only Axis in there, and I'm a mediocre stick on my best night. Were they that scared??
End the war, or give the people the ability to deal with milkers. On a non mission night...enable all axis and allied aircraft at all bases. All I had to intercept these clowns was a 110 (not that it mattered, they augered anyway).
I won't be logging in here anymore unless there are at least 10 people in the arena. Anything less is probably a bunch of girl scouts on a cookie drive.
RTR
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(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a207/RTR421/ahss3.jpg)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a207/RTR421/ahss0-1.jpg)
A73, 72,71,75. 63 & 35. All undefendable from milking.
Is milking happening here?
You tell me....couldn't get a response on 200 and looks like an auger when I got too close.
dar all porked etc etc etc.
Pretty lame to pork numerous Dar and then auger when found.
You know, I actually had some fun in the AVA a couple nights ago, of course a certain squad didn't seem to be in attendance. (maybe there was too many old sticks in attendance for them to be comfortable with..I dunno).
Seems most evenings when I log in this is what I see instead though. No fights, just the same squad milking the arena for all it's worth. I mean really...for a bit there tonight I was the only Axis in there, and I'm a mediocre stick on my best night. Were they that scared??
End the war, or give the people the ability to deal with milkers. On a non mission night...enable all axis and allied aircraft at all bases. All I had to intercept these clowns was a 110 (not that it mattered, they augered anyway).
I won't be logging in here anymore unless there are at least 10 people in the arena. Anything less is probably a bunch of girl scouts on a cookie drive.
RTR
RTR GOOD TRY .
i HAVE SCREEN SHOTS FROM TONIGHT OF YOU GUYS LOGGING IN AND OUTR ALL DAY LONG
So let me get this straight you log in watch us fly 3/4 of the way to our target LOG off just as we are going to hit the target
then say its a milk run
RIGHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT (I dont think so ) good try
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Nope saw the Dar bar in 9-14 and looked around all the fields to intercept you with. Dar was down all over as you can see in the pic.
Ended up airstarting a 110 from 73. (the only available aircraft in the whole damn region). Tracked your dar bar (no dot dar obviously) all the way to 7-14. From the bases and installations that were flashing I was able to kind of track you. Figured you ended up over the city SW of 72, and I was pretty darn close (I wouldn't be surprised if you knew I was there) and then your Bar disappeared and the city stopped flashing.
Only wish I would have had you vis. Your whole squad is nothing but an auger fest, you pork dar and milk, and when you get any opposition you auger.
I am not one to fantasize, nor spout off about nothing. I do however call'em as I see'em...and I'm not normally too far off the mark. Those who know me here can at least attest to that.
If you want repsect here, at least put up a fight when the opposition shows up. I know it's hard sometimes, especially when you are outnumbered so greatly as you were tonight.
You know...everything you guys do in the AVA you can do offline...seems like yer wasting $15 clams a month to me.
RTR
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Actually I filmed that flight too.. But you don't come off looking so good so maybe I'll just keep it.
RTR
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I'm sure the staff is working the bugs out RTR. It's a learning experience to see what works and what doesn't, this last week has been a drag for most of us.
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Actually I filmed that flight too.. But you don't come off looking so good so maybe I'll just keep it.
RTR
Be my quest go to the offline arena
So essentially you where never on fo rmore than 5 min is what you are saying ?
Because my screen shots have a digital xp clock on my pages to show times.
Just for reasons of this..
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Only wish I would have had you vis. Your whole squad is nothing but an auger fest, you pork dar and milk, and when you get any opposition you auger.
:huh
Ouch RTR. Surely you didnt mean the entirety of the Avengers are auger happy? I augered once during practice for BoA and never since. It's frowned upon. If Oceans augered there had to be a real reason for it. I dont know because I wasn't on today so I can't say anything about it. I do know that Oceans never has cared if he was met with opposition while bombing because he is actually a better shot with those guns then alot of us.
I just find fault with the idea that Avengers ae thought of as people who auger at all. As far as milking, we kept with Mr Forks original speaking of Rule6 then changed immidiately upon OldMan making it black and white. We follow the rules.
I can only assume that you were upset about tonights happenings.
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Was on for about 20 minutes or so...long enough to watch the cows getting milked.
I'm not interested in listening to any whiny attempts to justify your precarious position.
The fact is, you guys would never have survived the old AVA, and the sooner this war set-up stops the better we will all be. At least those who want to fight will be able to come and kick your little milk bucket over.
I can tell you that whenever I log in, if there is one of your squad there, I'm going to spank him like a red headed step child..repeatedly (or at least watch the inevitable auger)
Have fun ladies.
I've said my piece, and I'm done with this thread.
RTR
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I really am sorry you feel that way. I'm really a nice guy. So is the rest of the squad. Actually, so is everyone else who I've either played against or with.
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Was on for about 20 minutes or so...long enough to watch the cows getting milked.
I'm not interested in listening to any whiny attempts to justify your precarious position.
The fact is, you guys would never have survived the old AVA, and the sooner this war set-up stops the better we will all be. At least those who want to fight will be able to come and kick your little milk bucket over.
I can tell you that whenever I log in, if there is one of your squad there, I'm going to spank him like a red headed step child..repeatedly (or at least watch the inevitable auger)
I've said my piece, and I'm done with this thread.
RTR
Have fun ladies.
AHH RTR
sorry to burst your little bubble
I was over city A9 3/4 of the way there when you decided to log off and chem is right I didnt Auger
I got shot down by the super duper on steroides ACK
BUT >>>>>
there was phoniex oldbull and frankc also ON at that time along with you and n444 something or other.
As far as spanking me in this little old simulator here if that gets your jolly's off just fine with me .
However I am not into people of my same sex and My wife would be upset to think I am so I will have decline the offer
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With that said...you must have something personal against us.....you saw somebody auger and immidiately thought it was Avengers. :rofl
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Was on for about 20 minutes or so...long enough to watch the cows getting milked.
I'm not interested in listening to any whiny attempts to justify your precarious position.
The fact is, you guys would never have survived the old AVA, and the sooner this war set-up stops the better we will all be. At least those who want to fight will be able to come and kick your little milk bucket over.
I can tell you that whenever I log in, if there is one of your squad there, I'm going to spank him like a red headed step child..repeatedly (or at least watch the inevitable auger)
Have fun ladies.
I've said my piece, and I'm done with this thread.
RTR
1) THE OLD AVA is just that OLD .
not happening anymore.
That is why its old.
2) Where you in the arena the first TWO HOURS
I dont think so you logged in the last 20 min of that battle if that .
That was when I was on my way to A9
ALSO RTR Frankc is on transfer between areas and using a loaner system that cannot handle the video . It freezes and he has to re-log.
Ask Skuzzy if that would show an auger. My guess is yes
It could of been him you saw getting booted
You have any issues with that you can PM him (from his words verbatem)
NEXT ISSUE PLEASE
3)So If we log in and there are AXIS in here (razorbacks) beating us up pretty bad tonight and they logout are we suppose to leave 3/4 through the bombing run?
Also you have to find people instead of finding a blip on the map to fight sorry if you cannot just up and find a fight.
If I am on a 40 min bombing mission and 25 min I had opposition and they log out Im suppose to bail ?
I do not think so
Everyone of us where on a mission when you logged in
Sorry war doesnt stop when axis logs out
you can ask OLD BULL if you need verification
TRUK is our witness he was in there with is squad and we where on the defense.
We said to him "notice we arent complaining"
He agreed.
Because they where kicking our buts all over the map
Now I think Ive said enough since tomorrow when everyhbody see's your pre-mature attack on us and they CONFIRM the fight for 2 hours we all had.
WE will not ask for any apology in advance .
Just some understanding and maybe some common sense
Regards
Oceans11 (PS VERY northern name from a famouse movie of a famouse singer (NOT A RED KNECK)
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too much venom. for me take a chill pill
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Get a grip ocean geez. :rolleyes:
How much longer will this strat war go on anyway? The poor little sheds have no hope of winning the war now!
I forsee a surrender. :(
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Back on topic.
When I came back to the game after a layoff I came back to the AVA and found it completely different from what it used to be. I do see that the current setup can encourage milk running and hiding as opposed to the fights I used to enjoy.
First sign of negativity noticed: Claims of spies. Well this is going to happen. It's a sad comment on the people who do it because they do, in fact, curtail the rest of the groups ability to log on and enjoy their game. So I chose the axis side and am sticking with it. I'm not a fan of Axis planes in general but in the interests of fair game play I picked the side that generally has the lowest numbers.
Frustration #1: Logging on and having to pick through airbases that have suitable planes for the task I have I have in mind for the night. Be it resupply as recommended by the Axis CO when numbers are low I have to look look look look for a C47 to do that and even when I do it's so far away from the forward bases that need resupply it doesn't seem worth it in the limited amount of time I can devote to this game on a weekly basis. I do NOT GV because I never practice it offline. No slight to people who prefer or enjoy GV's they're just not my cup of tea.
Frustration #2: Even when I have a general idea of where the opposition is I STILL can't find a suitable ride for the task that doesn't involve a long climb out and a lengthy chase to the fight whereupon I will generally find myself slapped down within 30 seconds. 20 minutes of prep, 30 seconds of fun, bah... not fun.
Frustration #3: Coming to the boards and seeing people rip each other for their style of game play instead of working together towards a common goal which is a fun and enjoyable experience for everyone. This is nothing new but it is kind of old, boring, and counterproductive, to the end goal.
Now I have to give proper kudos where it belongs. I think the AVA staff is doing a yoemans job of trying to make the arena as much as it can be to satisfy everybodys desires. I'm going to keep coming and supporting it when I can and do my best to be a worthy ally or enemy. There will be bumps in the road and some thing that will be tried that go KERSPLAT. From that we all learn to assist the arena in evolving to something that, while it may not completely satisfy everyone, can become a decent compromise across the boards.
My only suggestion is to make some of the fighter hangers at forward fields indestructible. That, I think, would satisfy some of the furballers and allow the buff hunters that ability to see and intercept incoming raids.
Probably a crappy idea but the only one I have at the moment.
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As the CO of the Avengers I have duely noted RTR's childish personal attack on my Squad, but choose to let our good name and actions in the arena speak for them selves. Less talk and more shooting! :salute
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Less talk and more shooting! :salute
:lol :aok
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Get a grip ocean geez. :rolleyes:
How much longer will this strat war go on anyway? The poor little sheds have no hope of winning the war now!
I forsee a surrender. :(
I have grip , on my 50 cal lol
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Wait...thts not your .50 cal :rofl :rofl :D
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Emphasis on the "YOUR".