Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Coolguy0730 on July 13, 2008, 01:15:22 PM
-
Im thinking of using it in the MAs, I tryed it in the TA and I like it! Any tips or tricks?
-
Im thinking of using it in the MAs, I tryed it in the TA and I like it! Any tips or tricks?
Fight in the vertical.
Keep your speed up.
Pop your dive flaps in any extended dive.
Full elevator trim up in any turn fight, though you can say this about any plane.
Use flaps liberally if you get into a turnfight, but don't be stupid trying to turnfight Zekes and Hurris..etc.
Be prepared to be shot down alot. :aok
There are alot better people to comment on this than me. I'd advise you look up Murdr or AKAK about flying the 38.
-
I found that using the backup engine in a fight helps a lot in my time in it in the DA.
-
Full elevator trim up in any turn fight, though you can say this about any plane.
That is the worst advice you can give anyone.
ack-ack
-
That is the worst advice you can give anyone.
ack-ack
Err, why? Please elaborate..
If you are in a slow turnfight I see nothing wrong with using elev. trim for a bit of advantage.
-
Err, why? Please elaborate..
If you are in a slow turnfight I see nothing wrong with using elev. trim for a bit of advantage.
You can do it, but it won't confer any sort of advantage. Trimming will not allow you to pull a tighter turn than full deflection on the elevator. Murdr explained it best to me awhile ago, don't recall the technical details but the results are the same, trimming will not allow you to turn any tighter than stick input alone.
-
Full elevator trim = nightmare for gunnery, keep it neutral.
-
Best advice i can give. Fly the 38G! :)
-
Best advice i can give. Fly the 38G! :)
Dont listen to what he says...the 38L is so much sexier..... :rock
-
Here are some tips for you;
1. Don't be afraid to get aggressive, timidness will only make the long climb to proficiency even steeper. Take your licks and learn from them.
2. Even if you think the other guy has you for sure, roll the 38 and always show the flat side (ie from the 3 or 9 o'clock), you'd be amazed how often people miss.
3. Stall limiter OFF.
4. Use the rudder to increase the roll rate of the P38.
5. Put convergence way out, not that convergence matters much in a p38, but it will throw the lead a little higher which means you can pull slightly less to score hits. Its a very small fraction, but advantages are always desired.
6. Don't be afraid of the flaps.
7. Learn how to cross control.
-
You can do it, but it won't confer any sort of advantage. Trimming will not allow you to pull a tighter turn than full deflection on the elevator. Murdr explained it best to me awhile ago, don't recall the technical details but the results are the same, trimming will not allow you to turn any tighter than stick input alone.
Hmm, alright. I always thought it helped you pull a tighter turn radius.
-
Here are some tips for you;
1. Don't be afraid to get aggressive, timidness will only make the long climb to proficiency even steeper. Take your licks and learn from them.
2. Even if you think the other guy has you for sure, roll the 38 and always show the flat side (ie from the 3 or 9 o'clock), you'd be amazed how often people miss.
3. Stall limiter OFF.
4. Use the rudder to increase the roll rate of the P38.
5. Put convergence way out, not that convergence matters much in a p38, but it will throw the lead a little higher which means you can pull slightly less to score hits. Its a very small fraction, but advantages are always desired.
6. Don't be afraid of the flaps.
7. Learn how to cross control.
Oh I forgot about the stall limiter! Thanks!! :salute
-
Hmm, alright. I always thought it helped you pull a tighter turn radius.
It doesn't. Trim tabs are merely a tool of convenience, and does not effect the plane in terms of pure performance.
The only instances where trim would ever effect turning radius, is if the plane is travelling too fast to reach its ideal turn performance - and even that, with a price. Using the trim to turn a plane sharply while travelling at such speeds is not only stressful for the airframe, but also hazardous to the pilot in that he is just asking for a blackout.
-
One word of caution: I learned it's possible to put the 38 into a nasty flat spin if the flaps go up in a high g turn. It only happened once, but I learned my lesson.
-
Then can someone explain to ME why I just shouldn't leave combat trim on the entire time in a fight? I keep hearing about how no one uses it and prefers to trim their own plane, but apparently I'm doing it entirely wrong.
-
Fight in the vertical.
Keep your speed up.
Pop your dive flaps in any extended dive.
Full elevator trim up in any turn fight, though you can say this about any plane.
Use flaps liberally if you get into a turnfight, but don't be stupid trying to turnfight Zekes and Hurris..etc.
Be prepared to be shot down alot. :aok
There are alot better people to comment on this than me. I'd advise you look up Murdr or AKAK about flying the 38.
Tell me you're joking.
Keep in mind 99% of the time (in AH since 2002) I never have deployed flaps. I use throttle manipulation instead, as it suits my "crappy style". I realize I'm not a "cartoon ace and never will be". But, if you're in an "extended dive", wouldn't it be MORE EFFECTIVE to cut the engine, or if that is too gamey, then chop throttle?
Full elevator trim up in any turnfight? Huh? :confused: Again, I use throttle manipulation instead of flaps. I don't even bother with elevators, unless I'm compressed in a 38 (rare).
As for "not turnfighting Zeke's, etc", as most rides go, you'd be surprised on how you can rack up kills on the "elite turners" in a "crappy turning ride." Just the sight of someone relatively hanging with a Zeke, per se, is enough to cause them to make a mistake. I'd be a millionaire if I got a nickel that happened.
-
Then can someone explain to ME why I just shouldn't leave combat trim on the entire time in a fight? I keep hearing about how no one uses it and prefers to trim their own plane, but apparently I'm doing it entirely wrong.
Basically, Combat Trim negates the effects of the flaps, especially the dive flap.
ack-ack
-
Basically, Combat Trim negates the effects of the flaps, especially the dive flap.
ack-ack
So I'm supposed to turn combat trim off and do nothing then?
-
So I'm supposed to turn combat trim off and do nothing then?
I thought you were this Sierra Hotel Cartoon Ace according to other threads? :devil I'll come Bish tonight and you can join my plane for a couple of hops and I can show you some stuff.
You should have asked sooner.
-
I thought you were this Sierra Hotel Cartoon Ace according to other threads? :devil I'll come Bish tonight and you can join my plane for a couple of hops and I can show you some stuff.
You should have asked sooner.
I used to fly with Pawz alot when he was on regularly, and he said when he did his merge he did full elevator trim up for the turn fight. I took his word on it and have been doing that since.
I've never really had a problem with it except for low speed front shots flying straight when the plane is bouncing all round. I always thought it helped the plane nose around a bit better and hang in the vertical for longer.
-
So I'm supposed to turn combat trim off and do nothing then?
Turn it off and use manual trim to trim the aircraft flight controls.
ack-ack
-
Dont listen to what he says...the 38L is so much sexier..... :rock
But the J is soooooooo much sexier than the L
-
But the J is soooooooo much sexier than the L
Only if you use the 479th skin.
ack-ack
-
Only if you use the 479th skin.
ack-ack
G still looks best, but the 38Js didn;t look bad tonite :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Sappers-1.jpg)
-
So if combat trim negates use of flaps.. manualy triming plane will allow u to acctually use the flaps.. is this only in the 38 or all planes?
-
So if combat trim negates use of flaps.. manualy triming plane will allow u to acctually use the flaps.. is this only in the 38 or all planes?
Any plane that is flap dependent, like the P-38 and Ki-84.
ack-ack
-
Any plane that is flap dependent, like the P-38 and Ki-84.
ack-ack
Thank you ack-ack! I've been flying the Ki-84 for over a year and still can't use the flaps very often. Usually i have to be under 150 to even bring them down. I've never had combat trim off. Guess i have to relearn to fly.
-
Combat trim does automatically to a limited extent what you would do to trim the plane manually. It doesn't work too well at extreme speeds (slow OR fast) or angles of attack, however. I trim manually most of the time, but if I need to ensure neutral trim in an instant (such as to stabilize for gunnery or aiming ordinance) I'll turn it on for a few seconds then generally turn it back off again when I no longer need it. It's valuable because you could be crabbing sideways and not realize it due to the lack of sensory input we get in the game.
-
Yikes... Some great tips in this thread and not just for you 38 studs. AKAK, I know you mention combat trim as it relates to 38 and Ki-84. In 51's, in any mid to slow turn fighting the combat trim needs to be off. I would think this applies to all planes but I am not proficient enough in many of them to declare this with authority.
On top of ropes when you are trying to hang on your prop, having combat trim on will put you in a stall/spin every time, sometimes a nasty, inverted flat spin. With CT off and a couple of notches of flaps, you can really hang the plane.
OTOH combat trim is nice to have on at mid to high speeds when you are not turning aggressively.
CT is an interesting topic to me.. if YMMV applies, I'd like to hear about it. :)
-
Then can someone explain to ME why I just shouldn't leave combat trim on the entire time in a fight? I keep hearing about how no one uses it and prefers to trim their own plane, but apparently I'm doing it entirely wrong.
You CAN leave CT on during the whole fight. It does a pretty good job of trimming the plane in the "normal" range of speeds. However, at high or low speeds, "dirty" configurations (flaps or gear deployed, or an off-center DT), or flight attitudes other than level and straight, it has some quirks that could cause it to be seen as a "handicap". CT works very well for basic flying, but not so great for more drastic flight attitudes and maneuvers.
It basically trims the plane (or tries to) so that at whatever direction you point the plane, the trims try to compensate and minimize the required deflection of the stick from neutral.
For example, if you go into a prolonged dive at a given trim setting, without adjusting the trim, as speed builds your nose would have a tendency to come up. If you didn't dial in some down elevator trim, you'd be required to hold the stick forward to maintain your dive angle. In AH, dialing in the down trim happens automatically with the CT. As your speed builds in the dive, more and more down trim is added until it maxes out at full down trim. This is nice in the dive, because you don't need to hold the stick forward as much, but not so nice when your trying to pull out of the dive. In this case, your trying to pull up, but the trim is fully down! See the problem? This is what most people think of as "compression", but really it isn't.
Keep in mind too that "more" isn't necessarily "better" in terms of control surface movement either. Imagine if we could deflect our elevator fully 90 degrees up. How effective would that be? What if we could go beyond that, so the elevator actually pointed forward?
It doesn't take long for people to realize that using manual up trim makes dive recovery easier. However, they often assume it helps for the wrong reason, and then confusion sets in. The assumption is that it helps because it seems to give additional up elevator. It doesn't! It gives less down elevator trim! Visually, it has the same effect, but in reality it's not the same thing.
It's funny you mention dialing in full up elevator for turn fights. That's "funny", because that's basically what the auto CT will do eventually too. You're basically just rushing to handicap yourself in the same manner as the CT would.
As speed builds, CT dials in down elevator trim to minimize your required stick inputs to maintain the dive. Guess what it does as speed drops...
In reality, as your speed drops, your nose would feel "heavier", and start to drop. More "back" force on the stick would be required to hold the nose up. In its goal to minimize your work, CT dials in more and more up elevator as you slow down, until it maxes out at full up as you near stall speed. Stall speed and full up elevator is a great way to get in trouble... Also, if you go full down elevator at this point to reverse, dive out, or whatever, CT still has full up trim, and is effectively "fighting" you.
Especially in the last example, the CT could be seen as costing you E. The up elevator trim is a handicap at that point, whether it's from CT, or done by you on purpose. Vertical maneuvers (especially ropes) can benefit from having CT disabled.
Another example- roll inverted, and maintain inverted flight. You'll be forced to use LOTS of down elevator, especially as speed drops. What does CT do to help? It dials in UP elevator, which is exactly the "wrong" input! Ever fly inverted during a fight? Or at least "not level"? Is CT helping you?
How 'bout landing? Notice as you chop the throttle and slow down you need a fair amount of left aileron. Why? Not because the plane wants to roll right... Because the CT is still trimming for the left torque of the engine, which is now gone because you've reduced throttle...
Flap use causes CT to do some odd things too. Normally I'd expect a bit of down elevator trim as I drop a notch, CT puts in some up instead... CT is off in my plane when the flaps get dropped.
Understanding how the CT works is a requirement to understanding how it doesn't always benefit you. It isn't perfect, nor is it terrible. It helps here, and hurts there. So does Manual Trim. Using either incorrectly is a handicap. Failing to utilize them both is a handicap (IMO). Simply dialing in full up for a turn fight isn't a beneficial, correct use of manual trim, at least IMO.
I use both. I have it disabled, but have it mapped to a thumb button so that I can have it on/off when I want it. Manually trimming turns it off as well. I do best with it OFF by default, and have it accessible when I "ask" for it.
I use CT for ALL of my "normal" flying. Back and forth between bases, and "easy" maneuvering and fighting. I've developed a feel for where I'm better off with it, or without it. When my flying begins to deviate from "normal", I turn it off. When it returns to normal, I turn it back on. A two-minute fight may see it on/off 10 times. That's just how I do it... YMMV
BTW, I don't fly 38's much, so this post is more about CT in general. That said, the 38 is a good, if not great, plane to practice some manual trim with, due to it's low torque.
MtnMan
-
Any plane that is flap dependent, like the P-38 and Ki-84.
ack-ack
Thank You ACK-ACK <S> <R>
-
thx for the tips MtnMan :salute
-
Anyone having trouble against F4U-4's in the P-38's?
With the 38G, I outturn them 80% of the time but with my fave, the Juliet, I have a good amount of trouble. Those things can run me down pretty easily so I can't use my zoom since they're usually too close.
What would you say would be the best option to defeat a 4-Hog (my friend and I usually duel. Start at 1K off the deck, turn around and attack each other. I always continue to run right after the merge so that I can gain altitude and fight more easily. Then, he's usually behind me but far away.. some +2K. If he turns around he's probably already in an energy disadvantage but if he runs and gains alt too, what do I do?).
-
I have always had combat trim on, having read this thread I will turn it off now, and see how things go.
-
Anyone having trouble against F4U-4's in the P-38's?
With the 38G, I outturn them 80% of the time but with my fave, the Juliet, I have a good amount of trouble. Those things can run me down pretty easily so I can't use my zoom since they're usually too close.
What would you say would be the best option to defeat a 4-Hog (my friend and I usually duel. Start at 1K off the deck, turn around and attack each other. I always continue to run right after the merge so that I can gain altitude and fight more easily. Then, he's usually behind me but far away.. some +2K. If he turns around he's probably already in an energy disadvantage but if he runs and gains alt too, what do I do?).
The -4 Hog is probably the best prop fighter in the game, and you'll be hard pressed to beat a well flown -4 Hog in a P-38, provided they enter the fight on an equal basis.
-
Indeed so. From reading up on the Lightning and flying the Hogs a lot though, I now know well that the P-38 is has superior zoom, dive and low speed handling. Though it doesn't zoom the fastest, it hangs in the air for longer periods of time than the other prop fighters. I just have to figure out how to emphasize these advantages through particular maneuvers.
Too bad we don't have factory-rated engine specs on our Lima. Otherwise, I might have flown it a little more often.