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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Wingnutt on July 14, 2008, 11:26:15 AM

Title: Soft Gun..
Post by: Wingnutt on July 14, 2008, 11:26:15 AM
If he gets a kill for killing you, you should get kill for killing him.

That is all.
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: ZetaNine on July 14, 2008, 11:28:48 AM
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Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: Anaxogoras on July 14, 2008, 11:44:42 AM
If he gets a kill for killing you, you should get kill for killing him.

That is all.

This has been talked about at the wishlist forum, and based on the arguments I saw there, I agree with you but ask for less:  rather than getting a kill for killing a soft gun, I don't think gunners should "land" kills when their gun position was destroyed.  If they exit before then, by all means.  I don't really care about getting a kill.
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: Zazen13 on July 14, 2008, 12:20:09 PM
This has been talked about at the wishlist forum, and based on the arguments I saw there, I agree with you but ask for less:  rather than getting a kill for killing a soft gun, I don't think gunners should "land" kills when their gun position was destroyed.  If they exit before then, by all means.  I don't really care about getting a kill.

Manned gun position kills count for absolutely nothing. They appear on the extended stats page, but are not part of any of the 4 categories that comprise rank and provide no points or perks whatsoever...Manned gun positions, with the exception of shore batteries and heavy cruiser batteries, are intended to be utilized to perpetuate fights between airfields that would otherwise only last a fraction of the time. Field guns are also extremely fragile, one cannon round anywhere near one kills it. Manning one, is really an altruistic public service, a benevolent contribution of time purely for the betterment of gameplay. The only tangible reward, other than the satisfaction of helping perpetuate fun fights for others, is the fleeting 10 seconds of fame offered in the text buffer after a single cannon round or mg burst from a vulcher takes out your gun. The vulcher's reward for taking guns out, may not be a kill on the gun itself or the denial of the gunner's kills, but it is a 'free pass' to vulch his countrymen with impunity.
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: dunnrite on July 14, 2008, 12:42:21 PM
Manned gun position kills count for absolutely nothing They appear on the extended stats page, but are not part of any of the 4 categories that comprise rank and provide no points or perks whatsoever...Manned gun positions, with the exception of shore batteries and heavy cruiser batteries, are intended to be utilized to perpetuate fights between airfields that would otherwise only last a fraction of the time. Field guns are also extremely fragile, one cannon round anywhere near one kills it. Manning one, is really an altruistic public service, a benevolent contribution of time purely for the betterment of gameplay. The only tangible reward, other than the satisfaction of helping perpetuate fun fights, is the fleeting 10 seconds of fame offered in the text buffer after a single cannon round or mg burst from a vulcher takes out your gun. The vulcher's reward for taking guns out, may not be a kill on the gun itself or the denial of the gunner's kills, but it is a 'free pass' to vulch his countrymen with impunity.

what he said :salute
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: BnZ on July 14, 2008, 02:31:49 PM
..Manned gun positions, with the exception of shore batteries and heavy cruiser batteries, are intended to be utilized to perpetuate fights between airfields that would otherwise only last a fraction of the time. Field guns are also extremely fragile, one cannon round anywhere near one kills it. Manning one, is really an altruistic public service, a benevolent contribution of time purely for the betterment of gameplay. The only tangible reward, other than the satisfaction of helping perpetuate fun fights for others, is the fleeting 10 seconds of fame offered in the text buffer after a single cannon round or mg burst from a vulcher takes out your gun. The vulcher's reward for taking guns out, may not be a kill on the gun itself or the denial of the gunner's kills, but it is a 'free pass' to vulch his countrymen with impunity.

Shooting crap is its own reward, indeed, IMHO, the ONLY reward, in AHII.  :aok

But the way FGs are setup probably keeps people in 'em and firing "until the finish", which is a good thing.

Funny story related to that: Last night, I dove on a single flak parked by the maproom in flattened town, in my P-47, to make way for the troops. He took off my wing at precisely the same time I released my bomb.

I didn't get any "XXX shot you down" message. Apparently he towered out on the off-chance my bomb would actually hit him, managing to deny himself the kill on me on top of giving us the base.   :rofl
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: BMathis on July 14, 2008, 03:16:13 PM
Doesn't make any difference in score (cept you dying from a gun) ... It's all pretty relative 'til we can actually get a fieldgun rank.
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: NoBaddy on July 14, 2008, 03:29:32 PM
If he gets a kill for killing you, you should get kill for killing him.

That is all.

How about we go the other way. He gets squat for what he kills and you get squat for what you kill. All scoring stuff then is equal and everyone is happy. :D :aok
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: Zazen13 on July 14, 2008, 04:02:25 PM
How about we go the other way. He gets squat for what he kills and you get squat for what you kill. All scoring stuff then is equal and everyone is happy. :D :aok

Removing a possible incentive to use a field gun at a CAP'd base vs. vulchers could only have a negative impact on gameplay.
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: Zazen13 on July 14, 2008, 04:09:02 PM
If he gets a kill for killing you, you should get kill for killing him.

That is all.

I have an even better idea. How about vulchers don't get kills for planes still on the ground, the ground-bound vulchee gets a landed sortie instead of a death and the vulchers rounds applied to a non-airborne target count as misses... ;) If we did this the top 100 fighter sheet would look waaaaaaaay different from now on and gang-hording a sparsely defended field with 50 guys would plummet in popularity... :aok
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: Masherbrum on July 14, 2008, 04:11:37 PM
I have an even better idea. How about vulchers don't get kills for planes still on the ground, the ground-bound vulchee gets a landed sortie instead of a death and the vulchers rounds applied to a non-airborne target count as misses... ;) If we did this the top 100 fighter sheet would look waaaaaaaay different from now on and gang-hording a sparsely defended field with 50 guys would plummet in popularity... :aok

Bingo.   If they want to leave Field Guns up and get shot down, they deserve it.   
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: BnZ on July 14, 2008, 04:14:44 PM
I have an even better idea. How about vulchers don't get kills for planes still on the ground, the ground-bound vulchee gets a landed sortie instead of a death and the vulchers rounds applied to a non-airborne target count as misses... ;) If we did this the top 100 fighter sheet would look waaaaaaaay different from now on and gang-hording a sparsely defended field with 50 guys would plummet in popularity... :aok

Suits the heck out of me. I suck at vulching anyway.

 :salute
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: NoBaddy on July 14, 2008, 04:19:21 PM
Removing a possible incentive to use a field gun at a CAP'd base vs. vulchers could only have a negative impact on gameplay.

Hmm, how does removing scoring from the game have a negative impact of capped fields?
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: Zazen13 on July 14, 2008, 04:22:47 PM
Hmm, how does removing scoring from the game have a negative impact of capped fields?

I wasn't referring to scoring per se. I was referring to the buffer eye candy for kills, field gun kills don't count toward score.
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: NoBaddy on July 14, 2008, 04:25:08 PM
I wasn't referring to scoring per se. I was referring to the buffer eye candy for kills, field gun kills don't count toward score.

...and I was referring to to scoring per se.  :D
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: Zazen13 on July 14, 2008, 05:01:25 PM
...and I was referring to to scoring per se.  :D

Doing away with scorekeeping entirely would be bad. The primary distinction between AH and any of a hundred first person shooters out there, besides a prodigous learning curve, is immersive continuity of experience. Tour based scorekeeping, if kept in proper perspective, is not only a usefull tool for self-improvement, it also facilitates development of that feeling of continuity of experience. There's a significant portion of the community that would lose interest in the genre altogether if not for the ability to set goals for themselves every tour and monitor their progress throughout, doing so provides an overarching context for their gaming experience. Remove any and all artifacts of scorekeeping and the game will quickly devolve into air-quake with suicidal planes instead of deranged ex-marines with medication issues.

As an example, let's say we remove scorekeeping, let's also assume the people who've enjoyed the goal setting aspect continue to play. You've now removed one of the biggest reasons half the players don't accept or attempt to force HO's/Rams or suicidally dive through 15 blazing acks to vulch you while landing just out of pure spite. Now instead of being punished with a score ruining death on their scorecard for their actions there are no negative repercussions whatsoever, they simply roll the dice with an ambivalent shrug. I, for one, although I do not play for score myself, am very happy a lot do...I have played quake, it held my interest for all of about 7 minutes...No thanks..
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: Wingnutt on July 14, 2008, 06:13:05 PM
I have an even better idea. How about vulchers don't get kills for planes still on the ground, the ground-bound vulchee gets a landed sortie instead of a death and the vulchers rounds applied to a non-airborne target count as misses... ;) If we did this the top 100 fighter sheet would look waaaaaaaay different from now on and gang-hording a sparsely defended field with 50 guys would plummet in popularity... :aok

how about people who get vulched 3 times in 5 minutes start to lose perkies for being an idiot. :D
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: NoBaddy on July 14, 2008, 06:46:40 PM
Zaz...

I'm sorry that my sarcasm seems to have gone over your head.

I would try to ally you confusion, but, I'm too weary from reading your posts.  :)
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: Zazen13 on July 14, 2008, 07:15:01 PM
Zaz...

I'm sorry that my sarcasm seems to have gone over your head.

I would try to ally you confusion, but, I'm too weary from reading your posts.  :)

 :huh
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: Donzo on July 14, 2008, 09:23:13 PM
Zaz...

I'm sorry that my sarcasm seems to have gone over your head.

I would try to ally you confusion, but, I'm too weary from reading your posts.  :)

If it's any consolation, I understood your post just fine and was perplexed by Zazen's response.
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: Zazen13 on July 14, 2008, 10:45:28 PM
If it's any consolation, I understood your post just fine and was perplexed by Zazen's response.

Yea, Ok Donzo!...Have a nice day!  :rofl
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: Donzo on July 14, 2008, 10:55:52 PM
Yea, Ok Donzo!...Have a nice day!  :rofl

You really don't have a clue, do you?  :rofl
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: Zazen13 on July 14, 2008, 11:22:13 PM
You really don't have a clue, do you?  :rofl

Feel free to grow up anytime...;) If you're not going to even attempt to contribute anything substantive to the thread's discussion at least have the decency to be entertaining so it's worth the 3 second effort to read... :devil
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: BillyD on July 14, 2008, 11:42:29 PM
just turn the tracers off first.  :devil


<S>
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: NoBaddy on July 15, 2008, 07:33:22 AM
Donzo....

Zaz has plenty of clues. Read his posts and it's obvious (most of the time  :devil). In this instance, my knuckle ball just got past him. I might have been a bit too subtle...sarcasm can be a bit tuff in text.:)
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: saantana on July 15, 2008, 03:23:51 PM
Huh?
I love vulching. And I get owned by soft guns sometimes, to me its part of the game. If your stupid enough to try to take off while im circling the field ready to dive on you, why would you try in the first place?
When I get hit by a manned gun I give the victor a big <S> cause I sure cant hit jack in those things  :lol
And why is zazen telling people to grow up? Are there kids here?
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: Zazen13 on July 15, 2008, 03:48:36 PM
When I get hit by a manned gun I give the victor a big <S> cause I sure cant hit jack in those things  :lol
And why is zazen telling people to grow up? Are there kids here?

Have you read my post on the subject on the training site or netaces? It can help alot in that department. Kids I can tolerate within reason, they simply can't help themselves. However, adults with the maturity level of a child I have little patience for...;)
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: mechanic on July 18, 2008, 12:02:58 AM
i think zaz you have raised a very good point. If everyone flew careless i wouldnt have anyone to keep my eye on up high while I atempt to turn fight four chick16s and a zero on the deck. Without high cons to watch one could become dangerously lathargic in the furballs....but really, total suicidal air quake would not be good.
Title: Re: Soft Gun..
Post by: Zazen13 on July 18, 2008, 10:19:00 AM
i think zaz you have raised a very good point. If everyone flew careless i wouldnt have anyone to keep my eye on up high while I atempt to turn fight four chick16s and a zero on the deck. Without high cons to watch one could become dangerously lathargic in the furballs....but really, total suicidal air quake would not be good.

Air combat has held the time-less popular interest and become the subject of hundreds if not thousands of books for this very reason. It is a fundamental exercise of the precarious balancing of diametric opposition. Energy vs. Angles, Offense vs. Defense, Speed vs. Maneuverability, Initiative vs. Reaction the list goes on. It is precisely the quest for delicately balancing these diametrically opposed factors that make air combat study and practice enthralling. Attempt to remove any one factor from your own approach or that of your opponents and you've un-balanced the beautiful ballet of air combat into something else, a distorted caricature of itself, a mind-numbing game of quake or whatever, but you've destroyed the essence of what makes it great.