Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Yossarian on July 14, 2008, 02:31:25 PM
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Hi, I've been trying to use barrel rolls as my defensive manoeuver lately, but I've found that I always seem to wind up either stalling, or at least flying with the stall buzzer on. I'm wondering if anyone has some advice about stalling in a barrel roll, and how to avoid it (if indeed I should avoid it).
Also, currently my list of defensive manoeuvers is limited to:
barrel rolls
overshoots (as in dumping airspeed in any way possible).
Could you please tell me some other defensive manoeuvers/tactics that I should work on, and roughly how to do them (or a website etc where it tells me how to do them).
Thanks in advance & <S>,
Yossarian
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I highly recommend reading, "Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering" by Robert Shaw.
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I've already tried, but forgot about it a short time later (I think because of exams....), but I'll give it another try.
Thanks for the quick reply btw.
<S>
Yossarian
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It helps if your opponent is going faster than you.
It further helps you if you are both in a range of speed in which you maneuver as well or better than your opponent.
For instance, if you are flying along in a Fw-190D9 at 360mph IAS, and a Spit dives on you at 420, forcing him to overshoot is very, very do-able, even though his plane is theoretically more maneuverable
If you are doing 220 mph and the Spit is closing in on you at 250, life is more problematic for you. You should consider WEPing and pushing forward on the stick to turn alt into speed. If you don't have any alt to turn into speed, you should reconsider your "hard deck" and other operational procedures. ;)
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If you're low and slow, your best bet is to try and get the other pilot low and slow as well. A lot of pilots will kill their E to turn and burn for a kill. Get them slow and low, do some barrel rolls and scissors and hope that he either stalls out or crashes or overshoots. If you have a higher acceleration rate and better climb, get the speeds down and then when you're able to get some safe distance, WEP and aim for the sky. A climbing turn will bring his speed down and possibly cause a stall, allowing you to reverse the odds.
Just because you're lower, slower and uglier, doesn't mean you're out of the fight.
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(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:yT0A6bD8iEHwaM:http://rule29.of-the-internet.com/Barrelroll.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~john.schneider9/barrel_roll.jpg)
(http://www.gvwines.co.nz/img/content/313/335/20479_01-wf-barrellroll-s1.jpg)
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Sounds likeyou're just getting too slow for the pitch of the barrel roll. Dont climb too much or for too long on the climbing section of the maneuver for your current speed. Cut it shorter or make it less of an angle and you will stay further away from stall. You can always make your barrel roll vector pointing slightly downwards (diving barrel roll) a bit, or if you want to scrub off speed, you can make it more a climbing barrel roll. They dont have to be parallel to the ground.
During high-G barrel rolls etc, it's fairly normal to hear the stall buzzer a little bit, espc on the uphill sections. But just dont push it too hard into the hardcore buffetting, else you'll drop/stall the inside wing.
Here's some defensive manuevers based on the barrel-roll:
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/evarevall.zip
http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation6.avi (from http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,173151.0.html)
and an article on forcing overshoots:
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/overshoot/overshoot.htm
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A few things to add-
Your opponent doesn't need to be faster than you to get a decent overshoot... He just needs to have a decent "rate of closure". He can be equal to you (or even slower for that matter) in speed and still overshoot, if you adjust his angle of approach by changing your heading. In short, turn so he approaches from your side, instead of having him on your six. Even if you're both at 250 mph, he'll be closing on you at a high rate, instead of being saddled up on your six.
Showing him your side profile is a tougher shot, since he needs to lead you (and making him pull lead on you makes the overshoot easier). As he hits about D800 pull up a few (10-15) degrees, and transition into a barrel roll.
You'll want to be keeping your speed up (maintaining E) and at the same time giving him ways to burn his E, with the goal of equalizing E states, and getting behind him with enough E to kill him. So, slowing down to get the overshoot is something I normally find detrimental. I'd rather keep/build my E/speed and get overshoots by angles instead of by "braking".
Also, a good offense is the best defense. Be looking for a way to get the upper hand, rather than to just dodge his shots. Be thinking "how can I use this situation to my advantage". I'll generally use the barrel roll to dodge his shot, but also as a way to get behind him. He'll generally have enough speed to pull away and try again, so at some point I'm going to want to be able to transition into a more "normal" merge if the fight lasts long enough.
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Here are a few film I have of barrel roll, lag roll and other reversals hope it help. Mainly you're pulling G so the enemy can't put that piper on ya.
http://files.filefront.com/Lagroll+1925ahf/;10815301;/fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/ReversalHuri+0213ahf/;10813905;/fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/Barrel+Rollahf/;10376177;/fileinfo.html
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Here are a few film I have of barrel roll, lag roll and other reversals hope it help. Mainly you're pulling G so the enemy can't put that piper on ya.
Beware of the good guesser. Many pilots can lead you well enough while looking through the black tunnel to take a shot no matter what. More than half mine are well under the cowl. I just take my best guess and BAM
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Beware of the good guesser. Many pilots can lead you well enough while looking through the black tunnel to take a shot no matter what. More than half mine are well under the cowl. I just take my best guess and BAM
Most good pilots will see these reversal and counter.
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Most good pilots will see these reversal and counter.
or be hovering above someone else fighting and wait for them to not be looking so they can get a easy kill towards getting thier name up in lights.
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or be hovering above someone else fighting and wait for them to not be looking so they can get a easy kill towards getting thier name up in lights.
awww =/ I'm sorry I abused your poor SA
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awww =/ I'm sorry I abused your poor SA
you have never picked me boy, and you never will. I forgot more SA than you will ever know.
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you have never picked me boy, and you never will. I forgot more SA than you will ever know.
Can't quite decide which one that falls under help.....or training :)
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you have never picked me boy, and you never will. I forgot more SA than you will ever know.
"forgot more SA" O.o rly? one for the troller trying to start flame :rofl
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Quote From Mtnman
I'll generally use the barrel roll to dodge his shot, but also as a way to get behind him. Oh and to give Steve a really nasty pilot wound as we scissor and barrel roll all over the sky, ya I'd say that's my favorite part. :aok
Heheheheh.
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"forgot more SA" O.o rly? one for the troller trying to start flame :rofl
really what would you know about any type of defensive manuvers then? enlighten me, since all you ever do is runaway and only engage the targets when they are otherwise engaged.
And that weak SA comment is what all the no skill cherry pickers type.
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Can't quite decide which one that falls under help.....or training :)
:rofl
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Barrel rolls, or Lag rolls help give you a snapshot on an enemy that is coming with a lot of speed. Usually, when he's about 600 or so off, you begin the lag roll, he has way too much E to try and do the same maneuver, so most likely he will pull back out. By the time he realizes that, you already have pulled out of the roll and are on his 6, 200 out. probably, he will pull straight up to avoid the shot, but again, you are much more maneuverable than this con, so you can quickly get a shot on him, hoping that either you hurt him, or you kill him.
These usually only work on a diving con, if you got a con on your 6 with the same speed, I would suggest, for a quick reversal, would be to pull him into a scissor. Most of the time, you will have inexperienced pilot on your six and its a quick kill, but someone that has More experience, may avoid the shot once or twice. you will have more advantage because you have made the first move, and he may not expect that at all, but there are a few people that would know what to do in that position. Depending on the plane that you or what he is flying, your going to have to use every advantage that you can. if its a spixteen P51, fight vertical. If its a spixteen K4, out turning is the best way because he has more vertical.
That's just some of the things that can help. SA is very important in situations like this.
<S>
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really what would you know about any type of defensive manuvers then? enlighten me, since all you ever do is runaway and only engage the targets when they are otherwise engaged.
And that weak SA comment is what all the no skill cherry pickers type.
^^ I'm a BnZmer at heart, but I can hold my own in any kind of fight, I probably logged more hours in TT getting gang bang then most of people playing this game. At least in the last 3 months anyway.
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you have never picked me boy, and you never will. I forgot more SA than you will ever know.
How do you forget SA? That's like forgetting how to see....
My regards,
Widewing
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How do you forget SA? That's like forgetting how to see....
My regards,
Widewing
Well, we are talking about 1hungauto2th here.
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^^ I'm a BnZmer at heart, but I can hold my own in any kind of fight, I probably logged more hours in TT getting gang bang then most of people playing this game. At least in the last 3 months anyway.
so in 4 months, you logged more hours than...oooo....say........mur dr? or widewing? or even me?
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so in 4 months, you logged more hours than...oooo....say........mur dr? or widewing? or even me?
I meant in the last 3 months yea =) I probably logged 800 hours in the last 3 months! which I don't think anyone logged that much in the last 3 months! Can't play that much anymore though. Real life called and said its want me back !
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I probably logged 800 hours in the last 3 months!
:huh
That's almost 9 hours per day
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:huh
That's almost 9 hours per day
I think you're looking at it the wrong way... something more along the lines of "That's only..."
On a side note, think of all the spying you could get done... :noid
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lol yea =) I am on vacation from gaming right now ! I haven't log any hours in AH this month so far w00t. <-- In asia enjoying life.
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I meant in the last 3 months yea =) I probably logged 800 hours in the last 3 months! which I don't think anyone logged that much in the last 3 months! Can't play that much anymore though. Real life called and said its want me back !
I only get about 500 or 600 :(
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I only get about 500 or 600 :(
im doing good to put in to 30-40 hrs per tour
but i wont be in the ma again until i can get a new computer my graphics card died so im only running on the internal intel board that came with the computer.
it can handle the da but not all the information in the ma still able to play it just runs horribly.
i probaly wont be back till i get a new computer of my own good pci cards are hard to find.
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Quote From Mtnman
Heheheheh.
LOL Steve! I admit, I did kind of like that part, hehehe!