Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: titanic3 on July 15, 2008, 04:21:39 PM
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Fw 190A-8 (WNr. 172733) as flown by Unteroffizier Ernst Schroder of 5. Staffel/II. Gruppe/JG 300.
This "Panzerbock" Fw 190A-8 was used in "Defense of the Reich" operations between August and December of 1944. JG 300 was one of only two Jagdgeschwaders, JG 301 being the other, that performed these duties full time on the western front. All other western front Jagdgeschwaders, at one time or another, performed the dual role of "Defense of the Reich" duties while supporting the ground war effort. In fact, during the Ardennes Offensive, JG 300 and JG 301 were the only Luftwaffe fighter units that were not redeployed to support the ground offensive. They alone defended the homeland against the bombers of the USAAF and RAF during this crucial period of the war on the western front.
Because of this focused role of defending Germany against the daily attacks from Allied medium and heavy bombers, JG 300 and JG 301 were all weather units. Their planes were equipped with a full complement of radios and landing aids available to the Luftwaffe at the time. The pilots of JG 300 and JG 301 were also trained specifically for this role. This equipment and training allowed the units to adapt "Wilde Sau" night fighting tactics against enemy bombers as well.
Red 19, like the other A-8 "Panzerbocks" of JG 300, mounted a 300 liter drop tank mounted in an ETC 501 center line store rack. It also carried the full A-8 armament complement of four long-barreled 20mm MG 151 cannons in the wings (two per wing) and twin MG 17 machine guns above the engine.
*A letter from a Fw 190 pilot to a newsletter in March 2001*
file:///C:/Program%20Files/Jane's%20Combat%20Simulations/WWII%20Fighters/Data/Fw190A-8Red19/Red%20%2019%20Background%201.jpg
*Section two of the reading*
file:///C:/Program%20Files/Jane's%20Combat%20Simulations/WWII%20Fighters/Data/Fw190A-8Red19/Red%20%2019%20Background%202.jpg
*A picture of Enrst's aircraft*
file:///C:/Program%20Files/Jane's%20Combat%20Simulations/WWII%20Fighters/Data/Fw190A-8Red19/Red19_01.jpg
*Note: Simply open a new tab, copy and paste the link, click enter, and you're good to go.
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*A letter from a Fw 190 pilot to a newsletter in March 2001*
file:///C:/Program%20Files/Jane's%20Combat%20Simulations/WWII%20Fighters/Data/Fw190A-8Red19/Red%20%2019%20Background%201.jpg
*Section two of the reading*
file:///C:/Program%20Files/Jane's%20Combat%20Simulations/WWII%20Fighters/Data/Fw190A-8Red19/Red%20%2019%20Background%202.jpg
*A picture of Enrst's aircraft*
file:///C:/Program%20Files/Jane's%20Combat%20Simulations/WWII%20Fighters/Data/Fw190A-8Red19/Red19_01.jpg
*Note: Simply open a new tab, copy and paste the link, click enter, and you're good to go.
these addresses refer to files located on your hard drive, not accessible to us.
:rofl
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my bad.... so how do i get it a picture up? because it is in .jpg format.. :o
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here's a link ....
http://www.ww2fighters.org/downloads/190/Fw190A-8Red19.zip
its a simple 10 second download (maybe even less). The pictures is included in the files.
Click on "Red 19 Background 1" and "Red 19 Background 2"
"Red 19_01" is the aircraft.
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Fw 190A-8 (WNr. 172733) as flown by Unteroffizier Ernst Schroder of 5. Staffel/II. Gruppe/JG 300.
This "Panzerbock" Fw 190A-8 was used in "Defense of the Reich" operations between August and December of 1944. JG 300 was one of only two Jagdgeschwaders, JG 301 being the other, that performed these duties full time on the western front. All other western front Jagdgeschwaders, at one time or another, performed the dual role of "Defense of the Reich" duties while supporting the ground war effort. In fact, during the Ardennes Offensive, JG 300 and JG 301 were the only Luftwaffe fighter units that were not redeployed to support the ground offensive. They alone defended the homeland against the bombers of the USAAF and RAF during this crucial period of the war on the western front.
Because of this focused role of defending Germany against the daily attacks from Allied medium and heavy bombers, JG 300 and JG 301 were all weather units. Their planes were equipped with a full complement of radios and landing aids available to the Luftwaffe at the time. The pilots of JG 300 and JG 301 were also trained specifically for this role. This equipment and training allowed the units to adapt "Wilde Sau" night fighting tactics against enemy bombers as well.
Red 19, like the other A-8 "Panzerbocks" of JG 300, mounted a 300 liter drop tank mounted in an ETC 501 center line store rack. It also carried the full A-8 armament complement of four long-barreled 20mm MG 151 cannons in the wings (two per wing) and twin MG 17 machine guns above the engine.
*A letter from a Fw 190 pilot to a newsletter in March 2001*
file:///C:/Program%20Files/Jane's%20Combat%20Simulations/WWII%20Fighters/Data/Fw190A-8Red19/Red%20%2019%20Background%201.jpg
*Section two of the reading*
file:///C:/Program%20Files/Jane's%20Combat%20Simulations/WWII%20Fighters/Data/Fw190A-8Red19/Red%20%2019%20Background%202.jpg
*A picture of Enrst's aircraft*
file:///C:/Program%20Files/Jane's%20Combat%20Simulations/WWII%20Fighters/Data/Fw190A-8Red19/Red19_01.jpg
*Note: Simply open a new tab, copy and paste the link, click enter, and you're good to go.
What about JG 7 , JG 400 , JV 44 and JG 3 to name a few? I was under the impression that these squadrons were also for defence of the Reich.The had defense bands on their fuselages JG 3 had a ramsjager unit within the squadron. Two squadrons would in no way be enough to defend against hundreds of bombers and fighters
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According to my post, I've said that these 2 squadrons, JG 300 and JG 301, were the only two that supported the ground offensive during a certain period of time, other squadrons were fighting against Allied fighters and bombers. For a period of time, the JG 300 and 301 was fighting the Allied ground forces for a short amount of time, all by themselves, after this period of time, other air squadrons either assisted them or replaced them.
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It mentions cowl 131's removed to save weight. That'd be nice, perked or something.
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The heavily armoured 190s you refer to were not called 'Panzerbock' they were called 'Sturmbock'. The units who employed the armoured 190s against the American daylight raids were called the 'Sturmgruppen'.
I'll double check the spelling and add any necessary German characters later, mein Deutsch ist nicht so gut.
M00t, they only removed the cowl guns of offset the weight penalty incurred by the additional cockpit armour, thicker armoured forward glass and additional 30mm thick armored glass panels on the sides of the canopy.
If anything, the weight difference was small and the CoG would move back. It's probably not something we would want for the 190A8. It would, however, make it nearly impossible to get pilot wounds.
Here is a good photo of the 30mm armored, square glass panels added to the sides of the canopy. They were often referred to as 'blinders' by the pilots (who often had them removed because of their tendency to ice up and make it impossible to see sideways).
(http://members.aol.com/kaczmarek190/ungercockpit.jpg)
You can see the additional cockpit armor here (note that blinders have been removed in this case), an external metal panel:
(http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/images/fw190a8cs_11.jpg)
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Strange they didn't think of emptying the lumen between the glass plates.. That said, I'll take the armor and removed cowl guns over what we have, anytime.
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We might already have the weight of a fully armored 190a8, as our 190a8 seems overweight compared to several historical tests for standard 190a8s. However we don't have the armor modeled in (too bad, really).
Wish they'd adjust the weight or add the bullet resistance that comes with it, either way.
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Of all the accounts I've read of the 190 in all models, none of the AH representations meet them. I'd go so far as to say that the entire 190 planeset is badly under modelled.
Of course, I only have anecdotal evidence to support this so I won't make a real stand on it.... I just find the disparity between the real pilots' accounts of the 190 (the Dora in particular) and what we have in AH to be severely different.
It could be a case of rose-coloured glasses but performance comparisons of Dora pilots put the Dora on the level with Tempests and the Ta 152 considered superior to the Tempest in low level fights.
:noid
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these addresses refer to files located on your hard drive, not accessible to us.
:rofl
Sorry to pile on, but that is funny.
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Of all the accounts I've read of the 190 in all models, none of the AH representations meet them. I'd go so far as to say that the entire 190 planeset is badly under modelled.
Of course, I only have anecdotal evidence to support this so I won't make a real stand on it.... I just find the disparity between the real pilots' accounts of the 190 (the Dora in particular) and what we have in AH to be severely different.
It could be a case of rose-coloured glasses but performance comparisons of Dora pilots put the Dora on the level with Tempests and the Ta 152 considered superior to the Tempest in low level fights.
:noid
Xasthur, I'm inclined to agree with you to a certain degree, even though what's probably the most memorable compliment for the Dora came from Chuck Yeager, and people who have met Yeager almost universally agree that he is completely full of sh*t.
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I'd be curious about one thing with all weather operations in this type of airplane. Seeing how squirmy it is, an IFR climbout with such a thin wing - wouldn't that load up with ice faster then a redneck going downhill inside of a good year? Can't image they being equipped with any type of weeping wing glycol anti ice solution for these types of trips.
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Much like planes now, I bet they can spray *some*thing on the wings before takeoff, but keep in mind "all weather" is relative. They wouldn't fly when it was snowing or hailing or there was no end to the cloud cover. They didn't have avionics like we have now. All their installed aids only helped the pilot, but he still relied on his own eyes and judgement.
Keep in mind the biggest invasion of all history (D-Day) was delayed because the weather meant no air cover. When the weather was bad, planes simply didn't fly.
P.S. This is why I find grotesquely over-blown weather in the SEA to be stupid: Most planes wouldn't fly if it's as bad as some setups in there had it.
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Sure they did Krusty. Read Lipfert's auto bio.
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Much like planes now, I bet they can spray *some*thing on the wings before takeoff,
Exactly what would spraying anything on the wings do to prevent inflight icing? Maybe you could spring that one on Cirrus' marketing department and they could team up with Rain-X and Marvel Mystery Oil to create the most fantastic anti ice fluid known to man...
"Just rub a little on the wings and look ma...no ice!"
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Flying off in wet conditions to high alt always gets you from wet to frosty. No matter what season...
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Exactly what would spraying anything on the wings do to prevent inflight icing? Maybe you could spring that one on Cirrus' marketing department and they could team up with Rain-X and Marvel Mystery Oil to create the most fantastic anti ice fluid known to man...
"Just rub a little on the wings and look ma...no ice!"
They do it today. Deicer is sprayed on the wings and helps prevent ice buildup as compared to the same conditions without the deicing agent.
Think of it as antifreeze or something. I don't know what chemicals they use, but they've probably been around for ages.
Milo: I don't know Lipfert's bio, but 99% of air activity ceased when you have no ceiling to the clouds, and couldn't use your basic Mk.1 eyeball for takeoffs, flyings, and landings. The other 1% had a very large chance of never returning.
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"The other 1% had a very large chance of never returning."
Not really on topic but one common thing in books of German pilots seems to be that bad weather gets you in serious trouble really fast. I remember that in Rudel's book they had to land on other airfields, emergency fields and even on roads or even on fields totally blind because their original field could not be found or landed on because of weather and the fuel situation got critical. Rudel even tried to drive his Ju87 to his base by road once because they just could not fly back or to any other field in vicinity.
Sometimes the flying ceased because of bad weather but sometimes they went anyway, and sometimes the changes in weather were so surprising that they just could not be anticipated.
"Flying off in wet conditions to high alt always gets you from wet to frosty. No matter what season..."
Also coming down fast ices the surfaces because the airframe is cold and the moisture at lower altitudes starts to freeze on surfaces. Usually causes loss of sight because of frozen windows but probably will not cause critical icing of flight surfaces other that what would happen normally if you flew through the cloud etc.
-C+
Ps. Even the take-off could be quite hazardous: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDDHvwpoQXo
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They don't do anything for inflight icing. Inflight being the operative word.
They had no way to remove ice in flight other than seeking out warmer air and letting it either melt or sublimate.
They do it today. Deicer is sprayed on the wings and helps prevent ice buildup as compared to the same conditions without the deicing agent.
Think of it as antifreeze or something. I don't know what chemicals they use, but they've probably been around for ages.
Milo: I don't know Lipfert's bio, but 99% of air activity ceased when you have no ceiling to the clouds, and couldn't use your basic Mk.1 eyeball for takeoffs, flyings, and landings. The other 1% had a very large chance of never returning.
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Ah, I see. I figured there'd be a layer or residue during flight, but I guess this would evaporate.
As for icing mid-flight, high speed dives could break ice off a wing. The ice can't stand too much pressure and is very draggy. Very high speed air could clear it off. Not to mention ice is unique in that it melts when compressed, so maybe the pressure of the air pushing the ice into the wing helped melt it and break it off easier (not sure about that one but it sounds about right).
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As for icing mid-flight, high speed dives could break ice off a wing. The ice can't stand too much pressure and is very draggy. Very high speed air could clear it off.
With iced wings, with completely new aerodynamics from clean wings, with lots of extra weight in the plane, with sluggish controls... Very high speed dives are a certain way to buy yourself a nice new hole in the ground.
No, diving was and is not a way to get rid of ice.
Remember: ice changes the way the plane flies!
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Depends how much alt and speed you have. You're not going to spin out instantly. If you've got the alt to get to, say, 500, 550mph, as you get into the denser air you're going to break that ice off. In that state I don't think ice can stay frozen (pressure and airflow both working against it). All you need is a crack, a chip, and the rest of the ice can flake away.
That's how deicer boots work. Inflate just a little, cause a crack, and the airflow does all the rest
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Just...wow.
No, no, no aaaaaand hell no.
The only thing you really got right was that deice boots inflate. Even their capability is limited however effective they may be.
Ice does scary things to airplanes including adding weight and disrupting airflow. The way the aerodynaics changes with ice accumulation differs for every aircraft and even varies with different types of icing encountered.
It is to be respected and your ideas on how an airplane would work loaded up with ice and no means of shedding it are flawed.
Its a huge topic with more information than can be conveyed in a hundred posts but suffice to say your ideas are very much wrong.
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What about JG 7 , JG 400 , JV 44 and JG 3 to name a few? I was under the impression that these squadrons were also for defence of the Reich.The had defense bands on their fuselages JG 3 had a ramsjager unit within the squadron. Two squadrons would in no way be enough to defend against hundreds of bombers and fighters
The Copypasta says 'full time'. JG300 and JG301 were built from the ground up as RVG units. JG7 barely qualifies, considering it was originally a Kampfgeschwader, even though the entire time it was converted to the Me262 and bore the Jagdgeschwader name it was RVG.
JV44 was not a full geschwader and I'm pretty sure JG400 operated many too few aircraft to be really considered a geschwader (don't remember though).
JG3 was not a 100% RVG geschwader... I'm pretty sure it was in the BoB and I know it was in Russia for a while.
Many units contributed individual gruppen to RVG duties throughout the war, but I'm pretty sure only JG11, JG300, and JG301 were the only full strength jagdgeschwaders dedicated 100% to RVG through their entire existence.
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'Defence of the Reich' duties encompassed many geschwaden (sp?). There were only a few that were designated and equipped entirely as Sturm units.
I'll get the exact units later.
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According to my post, I've said that these 2 squadrons, JG 300 and JG 301, were the only two that supported the ground offensive during a certain period of time, other squadrons were fighting against Allied fighters and bombers. For a period of time, the JG 300 and 301 was fighting the Allied ground forces for a short amount of time, all by themselves, after this period of time, other air squadrons either assisted them or replaced them.
isnt that contradicting what you just stated in your first post? :rofl
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De-icing is a pre-flight operation, so that you're able to start with a clean wing.
In flight de-icing equipment is mechanical, it will break off the ice.
And shifting alt violently will ice you all over, cold airframe taking a hot and humid air.
It will block visibility mostly, for a short while, untill it melts off.
The quick icing is the most dangerous, before you know it, your aircraft is out of control and too heavy to fly.
Well, we have to learn about this in ...Iceland :D
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According to my post, I've said that these 2 squadrons, JG 300 and JG 301, were the only two that supported the ground offensive during a certain period of time, other squadrons were fighting against Allied fighters and bombers. For a period of time, the JG 300 and 301 was fighting the Allied ground forces for a short amount of time, all by themselves, after this period of time, other air squadrons either assisted them or replaced them.
They alone defended the homeland against the bombers of the USAAF and RAF during this crucial period of the war on the western front.
That was a snippet taken from your post. Maybe Im not reading it correctly but it does say against bombers.
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The Copypasta says 'full time'. JG300 and JG301 were built from the ground up as RVG units. JG7 barely qualifies, considering it was originally a Kampfgeschwader, even though the entire time it was converted to the Me262 and bore the Jagdgeschwader name it was RVG.
JV44 was not a full geschwader and I'm pretty sure JG400 operated many too few aircraft to be really considered a geschwader (don't remember though).
JG3 was not a 100% RVG geschwader... I'm pretty sure it was in the BoB and I know it was in Russia for a while.
Many units contributed individual gruppen to RVG duties throughout the war, but I'm pretty sure only JG11, JG300, and JG301 were the only full strength jagdgeschwaders dedicated 100% to RVG through their entire existence.
I don't believe at wars end any of these squadrons were up to full strenght. I know Walter Schuck and from what he told me by 1944 they were lucky to get 10 planes up from his squad at one time. The squadrons I mention were based in Germany and defending it at the end of the war. I don't know if JG 300 and 301 were even at full strenght so I don't understand what your point is.
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I don't believe at wars end any of these squadrons were up to full strenght. I know Walter Schuck and from what he told me by 1944 they were lucky to get 10 planes up from his squad at one time. The squadrons I mention were based in Germany and defending it at the end of the war. I don't know if JG 300 and 301 were even at full strenght so I don't understand what your point is.
My point is JV44 and JG400 were never full geschwaders.
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My point is JV44 and JG400 were never full geschwaders.
semantics
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OoB Jan 10 1945
Luftflotte Reich
Unit Aircraft Total Svcble
Stab/JG 300 Fw 190 6 4
I/JG 300 Bf 109 57 37
II (Sturm)/JG 300 Fw 190A 41 28
III/JG 300 Bf 109 44 38
IV/JG 300 53 39
Stab/JG 301 Fw 190 5 5
I/JG 301 38 26
II/JG 301 40 38
III/JG 301 26 20
I/JG 400 Me 163A 46 19
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/LWOB45.html
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LOL, I wish Izzy was here looking at those numbers :rofl
Well, maybe he's reading :t
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Why? :huh
I think they have quite a good percentage of serviceable planes.
-C+
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Why? :huh
I think they have quite a good percentage of serviceable planes.
-C+
pilots to fly them might have been more of an issue than serviceable planes.