Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: snafu on August 20, 2000, 06:20:00 AM
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Hi All,
This is not a flame or a trol, I'm just interested. - and confused...
Checking through the BB & reading "Channel 1" I have noticed that every single aircraft & vehicle in AH appears to have a "porked" FM (No jokes about flying Panzers, you know what I mean).
Now, I don't fly a real plane or drive a real tank but..... I find it very hard to believe that HTC are making money out of what appears to be such a bad product. I accept that there are certain "gameplay" issues which mean that things are not as in real life. Billboard Icons, Inaccurate load outs etc.
But, this is supposed to be a flight sim as opposed to an arcade game. I always thought it was realistic. Have HTC got it wrong? Or are the various flame wars etc I see around just whining? Surely if it was so bad HTC with all their years in the industry would have put it right by now.
Like I said I don't fly in real life although I have had a go. It generally feels about right to me. What about the rest of you. (And if it is so bad why do you stay)?
TTFN
snafu
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The only thing overmodeled is the whining.
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Heheheheh Well first off not ALL of us complain. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (Although it would be easy to do)
Personally I am enjoying Aces High MUCH more than anything else I've ever flown.
Are there a few things that could be fixed/tweaked. Shrug, perhaps, but thats HT's & Pyro's problem. All I have to worry about is doing the best I can with what I'm given.
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What Funked said.
-Westy
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Yea, That's what I thought (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Thanks Guys,
TTFN
snafu
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What Ghosth said.
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Damned Stalker
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I can't recall me complaining about a flight model being porked. I just complain by asking for planes to be put into AH that aren't announced yet.
I think the answer is what Funked said.
Sisu
-Karnak
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OK.. if you're trolling I'll bite... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think the AH flight models are designed to reward boom and zoom and punish turn and burn. The planes loose E in turns rapidly. Is this unrealistic? I have no idea. The only ones who could comment on the dynamic performance model are those that fly real warbirds.. at $2M each I am not joining that group any time soon. Does the bias have consequences? I think it does. In Air Warrior most fights were at 10 to 15K alt. Then, in reaction to T&B Dweebfires, Confirmed Kill (then Warbirds) was created and typical fights rose to ca 20-25K. Now in AH it is not uncommon to be flying at 30K and be bounced from above. In that case there is not much you can do.. if you manouver, the fast E bleed turns you into a barage balloon easy target. You can't manouver and try to extend because that 200ft neon icon you drag is always visible and the faster or higher E plane will find and overtake you. Am I whining? Yes. Because for me to get my usual guaranteed fatal E advantage over targets I have to spend 20 minutes climing to near the service ceiling of the plane. And often that does me no good anyway because my Spit will lock up in the dive at speeds below the normal full military level speed of other planes like the F4U or P47. I think frustration with these energy related issues.. i.e. the long time to get E and the rapid rate of loosing E, lead to some of the radio whining about FMs: you pull on the stick to try to get a shot and now you're a blimp. Perhaps the FM changes Pyro announced will improve the playability of T&B planes like the Spit and Zero. I think that a non-neon arena would also help alot. Since it was part of Warbirds I am curious why it hasn't appeared in AH.
715A
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715,
this will probably be fixed in 1.04. But I will postulate that most will still fly in for a high initial merge.
I fly in at 22-23k as an average in the G10, sometimes 25k when I know the enemy has lots of time to grab. Nevertheless, if a high enemy wants to shoot me down, he better be ready to take it down into the weeds; I'll use all the alt I have for defensive maneuvers/trying to bleed his e, and then use the good deck speed of the 109G10 to reverse. As a result, 90% of my kills are at an altitude of 3-8k.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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what funked and Ghosth said (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Maik
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There's always going to be complaints, some valid many not. If we find a valid problem, we'll do our best to fix it. But therein lies the rub. The more you do, the better you do it, the more attention you pay to it, the more people criticize and even nitpick it. That's not a bad thing necessarily, it really depends on how it's communicated. If we spend all our time chasing whines, we'd really have a screwed up game and would get nothing else accomplished in the meantime. But if someone makes a valid point to us, i.e. provides us with useful documented information(opinionated rants not falling into that category), then that makes it easier for us to either agree or disagree and act accordingly and perhaps improve things.
Probably the biggest factor in this is psychological. Bias and expectation have a big influence on how people perceive things. If you've ever studied psychology, you're probably well aware of many examples and case studies on the subject. On this subject, it's quite common for people to have equally strong and diametrically opposed views on some things. Expert 1 claims plane A is clearly "overmodeled" while expert 2 claims it is clearly "undermodeled". It's like watching two rabid fans of opposing sports team argue the validity of referee calls. Each one argues the validity of any call that goes against the team they are cheering for while the other cheers it as correct. Vice versa when the call goes the other way. If you really look at where many of the observations that are posted here are coming from, you tend to find that most of them come from a limited background. E.G. the guy who mostly flies bombers thinks they get shot down too easily, the guy who mostly flies fighters think bombers are too hard to take out, the guy who flies one particular type of plane or planes thinks his is undermodeled or everything else is overmodeled, etc. etc. I truly believe that it is bad for a player to play the game from such a limited point of view. Not only do they cheat themselves from learning the weaknesses of their opponents and building a variety of useful skills, they skew their observational capacity and perhaps vent weird rants on the board.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Pyro, if you use this objectivity/rational way of thinking one more time...
My Momma's Combat Boots.
Ask mx22 about my sox, then envision those boots.
Everyone knows that all allied opportunist planes are overmodelled, and all but the 190A5 of the LW are really Gotha bombers with a different skin.
Geesh.
And, for your information, that guy should have gotten a red card and we should have gotten a penalty. We'd won the whole world cup if it hadn't been for that.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Now Pyro,,
you know damn well that my planes are never overmodeled..
I'd luv to find the coding that states
"if $1=SCGreyB
then ACM=-20%
Else ACM=+50%"
It's all yer fault ya know...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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GreyBeard, Squadron Leader
Commander, "E" Flight, Aces High
Senior Staff Council
"The Skeleton Crew"
"Fly with Honor"[/i]
"Keepin' the Faith"
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Well said Pyro.
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Major Mike "FunkedUp" Waltz
Officer Commanding, 308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF (http://www.raf303.org/308)
Northolt Wing (1st Polish Fighter Wing) (http://www.raf303.org/northolt)
Goldie, how many times have I told you guys that I don't want no horsing around on the airplane... Now let's get this thing on the hump -- we got some flyin' to do!
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Originally posted by Pyro:
There's always going to be complaints, some valid many not.
[snip]
Probably the biggest factor in this is psychological. Bias and expectation have a big influence on how people perceive things.
[snip]
[end quote]
Ach. Improve the flight recorder. I'll stop squeaking about uber P47s after I can clearly see how my P38 got outturned by one. Give me a stable "floating eye" camera, and give me the ability to see enemy airspeed and altitude (i.e. energy state). Then I'll figure out if that was a P47 stallfighting with me, or if he was moving at 400mph and pulling 7Gs.
Show me the enemy's hit sparks on my plane so I can see how that Buff's 2 .50s tore apart my plane so quickly (did he hit all in one place or all over like my 6-guns were doing to him?)
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Hehe Pyro's reply really hit the mark (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I know one thing for certain. If I was EVER going to lay all my money on the line and write a WW2 flight sim, it wouldn't contain a single P51, P47, Spitfire or Fw190.
It would be full of Me 764, P22, Supermarine Hawks and Fw34 aircraft. Never heard of them? Well they are of course fictional aircraft.
But at least then no-one could claim they were over or under modelled (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sometimes I read this board and I just imagine HT or Pyro sitting in Texas, reading the same threads, and just hanging their heads in despair.
No matter what you build, someone will ALWAYS complain (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
Aces High Training Corps
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hmm .. do 500 in a Typhoon then crank the rudder , you drop 300mph in 3 seconds. possible in RL ? doubtful.
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as far as the FM goes, I think HTC did a great job. Listen, these games aren't that simple, so you can't just throw them together...you have to think like pyro or HT does: "If I change one aspect of the game, how is it going to affect another?" So saying the FM is porked is invalid until you've actually flown with a pilot's license. Another thing. Why is it that people mostly use very rude ways to get something they want changed? I mean constructive criticism is o.k., but whining isn't going to do you any good. I think this sim is the best one on the market, and will just continue to improve with the help of people willing to be patient and give HTC good suggestions...Have a good day all...I hope to see you in the skies (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by skippy:
hmm .. do 500 in a Typhoon then crank the rudder , you drop 300mph in 3 seconds. possible in RL ? doubtful.
That seems excessive: it would be a decelerating force of 4.7 g's.
I tried it at sea level: went from 400 mph to 320 mph in 2.8 sec for a deceleration of 1.3 g's. That corresponds to an increase in frontal drag area of about 53 ft^2 which is a yaw angle of something like 13 degrees. Sounds normal for a hard over rudder.
715
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Originally posted by Stooge:
Another thing. Why is it that people mostly use very rude ways to get something they want changed?
Please point out to me the "rude" part of my post. Or do you consider anything short of "wow AH is just perfect" to be rude?
715
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You know its no that simple!
1. You have no idea what the coefficient of drag (k) is on the Typhoon at a given angle to its direction of flight.
2. There are a plethora of variables acting on that plane including the addition of power from the engine at 100%.
3. He said 3 seconds not 2.8 seconds so you are biased! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
HTC is obviously going to do the best they can with the information provided to them for a given plane. I would like to know what they use as reference material? Anyone?
I have never flown Warbirds but I have flown private aircraft. Do I know if the AH FM is porked? Nope!
My bias comes from Warbirds. The planes in Warbirds don’t lose e on turns as fast as they do in here. Is Warbirds correct? I don’t know! I just hope that 1.04 is going for realism and not playability. I want a realistic FM! I do hope that the new FM makes it easier to enter and exit from those low level furballs that I really miss. There are way too many 20000+ft altitude monkeys in this sim. I think that’s mainly because of the high loss of e on turns.
I would also like to know if there is any reference material regarding how long it takes a given RL WB plane to reach vmax at its optimum altitude? I fly the F4u and it seems to take an extremely long time for it to reach vmax. If you climb up to 20k and level out it takes it over 5 minutes to get close to vmax. It never actually makes it to 400 mph at military power. How did they actually do the test?
If you know respond if your trying to justify your investment of 30$ a month and countless hours by saying its perfect get counseling! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Give us the late war F4u-4. 4000ft/min climb, 450 MPH, 2357 of them were made and entered combat in April of 1945.
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Originally posted by Chango:
You know its not that simple!
1. You have no idea what the coefficient of drag (k) is on the Typhoon at a given angle to its direction of flight.
2. There are a plethora of variables acting on that plane including the addition of power from the engine at 100%.
3. He said 3 seconds not 2.8 seconds so you are biased! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
1. We are talking about the fuselage so I used the coeff of drag for a cylinder (an approximation of the fuselage) which is near 1.0 for most Reynolds numbers. But you are right, when you yaw part of the wings get shadowed and their lift (and induced drag) changes.
2. The engine power has nothing to do with it: that is what is overcoming the normal baseline drag of the plane and defines max velocity. The Extra drag due to hard over rudder is what causes the plane to slow and it is that drag that I was doing a back-of-the-envelope calculation on.
3. I was giving the numbers I measured- I can't get the Typhoon to 500 mph in a steady state (i.e. not a dive) at sea level.
So it isn't that simple but one always starts simple and sees if things are within the ball park. In this case they did seem to be.
Re extending from furballs: I still think that in a no icon arena (which Warbirds had) that it would be (and was in WB) much easier to extend, independent of the FM. With that neon sign the higher E or faster plane is always going to find you.
715