Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Vermillion on March 01, 2001, 04:07:00 PM
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NEWS FLASH !! P-51B & Fw190D9 in 1.06
http://www.dogfighter.com/briefs/show.php3?brief=983484912 (http://www.dogfighter.com/briefs/show.php3?brief=983484912)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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perfect!
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LOL! You got your thread in here faster than I could. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[and now I have to wait to post this one because of flood control] he he he
Cheers,
phaetn
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Gian "phaetn" Vitzthum
Managing Editor
Dogfighter.com (http://www.dogfighter.com)
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Who will be first with the "welcome back RAM thread"?
loks like FDB will soon have a new beer pool (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Yes!!!!!!
Santa is gonna crap his pants again
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What do we need the P-51B for?
Whats the performance difference against the D? and does it have cannons
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P51B will be good for scenarios maybe?
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RHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA LOVELYYYYYYYYYYYY !!!!!!!!!!
Wilbus, WAKE UP !!!!
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MASS/SAW
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/fw190fp.gif) (http://eismeer.port5.com/)
click HERE (http://eismeer.port5.com/) for info on III./JG 5 Eismeer
When I was younger I hated going to weddings.
It seemed that all of my aunts and the grandmotherly types used to come up to me, poking me in the ribs and cackling, telling me, "You're next."
They stopped that stuff after I started doing the same thing to them at funerals.
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 03-01-2001).]
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Yaay more German & US fighters....
BLaaa
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Nice!!! HTC has been very kind for Lufwaffe pilots with version 1.06!
Thank you!
Poor RAM... Either he eats his words again or stays away as he said. Which one will it be? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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Ah.. perk up little camper.. at least they threw a mid war plane in there. There is hope for the P-40 afterall (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
AKDejaVu
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This might be a way of rounding out the planeset.
Instead of adding little by little to each country, add lots to one in each release.
I'm happy. ::gets pom poms out::
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Originally posted by Animal:
What do we need the P-51B for?
Whats the performance difference against the D? and does it have cannons
Isn't the B faster than the D but with 4 .50s?
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Wow... there is a god!
looks great HTC!!!
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ooohhhhh.....Daddy likes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Yes I believe so Frenchy.
The B is usually listed at 440mph, against the D's 437.
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Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
My AH homepage (http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens)
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I believe the B model is 10mph slower than the D...it does outclimb it a bit and will turn slightly better.
It is also not as good of a performer at higher alt. Perhaps HTC is going to perk the 51D and leave the Dora in the MA? Sure hope not.
Ice
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the B is beautiful that's all i care about - it will be fun to fly despite it's performance - it's just a tight lookin plane
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Dammit Mass hold down Wilbus while I force a sedative down him before we let him read this...listen guys just keep the noise down about the Dora until we can get hold of Wilbus, we're worried he might rupture something
Revvin
III./JG5
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I hope RAM is wearing protection when he hears this news. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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B is faster, lighter, less guns.
There was one made with 4 hispanos....
I find it an interesting choice. Happy to see it and a nice trend towards the mid war.
The D9...Man old Kurt Tank must be doing summersaults in his grave.
HTC is filling us with German AC till we puke...
I would think that most of the planes set for intro will not be perk planes.
51B not
190F8 Not
Yak not
LA7 I assume it is(dont know)
D9 I assume it is(dont know)
Ardo is
Tempest is
Ta152 is
certainly several of these planes are for general consumption and important in the late war plane set.
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 03-01-2001).]
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190-d9 will NOT be perked. This is the info relayed to me by someone very reliable within the inner-circle.
La7 will be perked.
I must comment. I am pleased to see the 190d9, however, it is no better than the 109g10 down low, perhaps will be an easier kill for Stangs. Both the P51b/d will be able to outturn the D9. Case in point:
190a8 = 7,055 lbs empty - 10,800 lbs loaded.
190d9 = 7,720 lbs empty - 10,670 lbs loaded.
Now combine this with the fact that the D9 has the same wing as the a5/a8 models, and you see that it will be a big fat pig in turn-fights, as is the 190a8. Keep em high and fast.
fscott
[This message has been edited by fscott (edited 03-01-2001).]
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If the La7 a 408mph max plane is perked, while the P-51D, Bf109G10, and Fw190D9, are not (they are all 3 of them 30-50mph faster), it will be the biggest farce that AH has ever seen.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Verm, I've said many many times, comparing max speeds is ludicrous. Differing altitudes will change speeds. How many times have you sped away from an attacker and kept your 20k alt? Most of the time the fights digress down low below 5k and when you want to get away from a fight you hit the deck.
The La7 max at sea level is 380mph. Come on, you can't tell me this wouldn't be the most popular non-perk plane in the arena, moreso than the chog. Add to that a plane that can climb like a rocket and turn great. It needs perked. It will be perked,.
fscott
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Can anyone remember how many aircraft, vehicles, ships or boats we had this time last year?
Folks, I'm very impressed with the quality and quantity of the work at HTC. <S>
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Ozark
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
"I'm getting better!!! No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment"
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How on earth could an La-7 be a perk and a Fw 190D-9 or P-51D not be a perk? It boggles the mind...
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Beautiful. They're both absolutely gorgeous!
Mmmmm .... <way back to a kids age>... Gentile and Godfrey. I may switch to the "B" and become a 51 afficiado after all.
And that D9 is damned perty! Damned perty (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-Westy
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Funked. Simple. The same way that everyone was crying for the Chog to be perked. Perk IMO should not have anything to do with max speed at altitude. That's ludicrousity at its worst. The La7 performs at 380 mph at sea level. The P51d about 367mph and D9 357mph at sea level. The La7 will literally eat both planes for breakfast at sea level and ask for more. It can turn circles around both, and climb away from both. Now, you tell me, how in the world.
fscott
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Why, its simple! The B model is in because the D model is gonna be perked! *grin*
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Perk the LA7? heheheh Because of sea level speed?
Fury
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fscott,
La7 perked? I really doubt that. Everything Pyro has told me in the past does not point in that direction.
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leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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Actually Ice, the B is indeed 3 mph faster than the D. Actually, the D is simply a P-51B with a bubble canopy and six guns. And I believe that the performance difference is not because of the guns, but because of the elimination of the P-51B's razorback. The bubble canopy isn't as aerodynamically effective as the razorback, due to the airflow around it. Perhaps someone else could explain it better, and maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I remember.
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Hey....we'll know the perk thing when it is released...until then arguing is pointless.
Regarding 1.06...I'm psyched!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<S>IC
BTW it looks like the LW plane set is "complete" (for want of a better word)for the time being anyway. That means future releases will get our coveted IJN, RAF, and US birds to us for sure, so hang on and settle down. That P-47M will come soon enough! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by iculus (edited 03-01-2001).]
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The B was made with both the 1650-3 and the 1650-7 that the D used. We're using the -3 which is better suited to high altitude than the -7. So it performs better up high than the D if that's what you're looking for. Even so, it was added more as a general expansion of the planeset. If we got to working on P-47s this version, we would have done a razorback D as well.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Pyro, Ice..I just put up a speed chart of the P51D and B models. It came America's 100,000, and the P51B there is using the 1650-3 engine. I hope our B performs this well.
fscott
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Originally posted by Animal:
What do we need the P-51B for?
Whats the performance difference against the D? and does it have cannons
what?? are you mad? The p51-B is lighter, faster, climbs and turns better than the D model. No it aint got cans, only 4 50s.
*** W T G *** HTC, the best plane to be added yet!!!
PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE be an RAF MkIII with the Malcom Hood (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Fscott, before you stick you foot in your mouth, do you realize that we ALREADY have a 380mph SL aircraft in the game, and its far from the most popular.
Hell... it also has 4 of the strongest 20mm cannons in the game, plus its the fastest at SL, and it doesn't dominate.
So why shouldn't it be perked as well then by your theory?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Verm, the Tempest is 375 mph at sea level. It does not have anywhere near the climb rate as most other ac, and it only turns marginally well, although some claim to have seen it turn like a spit, it does not. However, it is very close to being a perkable aircraft, yet you have to draw the line somewhere.
The La7, I'll repeat, is very fast on deck, AND it turns very very well, AND can climb like a mother. I don't see why it can be so hard to understand. Being perked does not mean its the end of the world. I suggest it will be a cheap perk. You have to draw the line somewhere, OR make all ac perked.
fscott
[This message has been edited by fscott (edited 03-01-2001).]
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Can't wait to get my hands on the 51B. I already fly the D with a 4gun loadout, so the gun package is just fine with me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Add in a touch better handling and we're all set (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Maybe the La7 will be a cheap perk. Even if it's not I dinnae think it'll come anywhere near the level of popularity of the -1C. The La7 can't turbolaser tanks its cannon alone. fscott are you remembering to factor in the La's plum toejamty visibility in your figuring? I wasn't really expecting it to be a perk ride unless it became overly popular, but if it is it is.
I'm wishing/hoping the Ta-152 isn't a perk ride. She's only really good way up high right? I'm not gonna spend a damn point on something that's best role is facing the turbolaser 40mm BFGs the buffs carry. No way Jose.
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The P-51B is the one plane in 1.06 I might try, and that's only if it carries substantially more ammo per gun than the D-model
Compared to the D, the P-51B is about 5 MPH faster, climbs marginally better (particularily over 22,000 feet), accelerates a bit better, has somewhat better E-retention, and turns somewhat better. It will have poor ground-attack capability and average visibility at best, comparible to the 109.
Changes for the D-model included: Bubble canopy, different engine optimization, guns in upright position instead of canted, 6 guns instead of 4, different aileron design, minor changes to radiator, some changes to cockpit interior, addition of rocket stub fittings, stronger wings (for carrying more ordinance), different gunsight, eventual adition of a fin in front of rudder, and some other detail changes.
Basically, the B outperforms the D in every way, but not by much. I think the main advantage the B will have in the arena is the green camo will make it harder to see to line up on.
If either P-51 is perked, it really should be this one, as it performs better. In particular, watch out for its zoom climb. However, neither P-51 is really perk material.
J_A_B
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Good choice on adding the P-51B.
Thanks HTC!
anRky
-Ih8ubb
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I dunno what it is, but that razorback canopy and olive drab paint is just so sexy.
I've always preferred the B model 51 over the D.
Looks like I found my new ride for awhile, at least until I buy Lazs' perks points on Ebay.
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I wasn't mentioning a Tempest, I was describing the Typhoon, which has a deck speed of 375, and is armed with x4 hispanos. Is it going to be perked? It should by your theory.
Have you ever looked at the climbrate of either the Typhoon (up to 10k) or the G10? Both can already climb as well, actually much better, than the La7.
FYI the turnrate of a La5FN and the La7 are both comparable to the sustained turn rate of a P-51D, about 20-21 seconds to complete a 360 degree turn, in the direction of their best turn. Also about the same as a Yak-9U. I don't know where you get the idea that any of them are great turners. Good E fighters in the vertical but they are not TnB aircraft in the least.
So what if the La7 is very fast on the deck. Basically what you are telling me is that the La7, the most widely produced late war fighter for the VVS (5,700+ produced), more than the P-47D (25&30 combined), P-38L, Fw190D9, Me109G10, N1K2-J, Ki-84, Ki-100, Spit XIV, and many many others. Has to be perked just because of its deck speed and low alt climbrate, even though we already have other unperked fighters that have comparable performance and were much less common in the real war.
Get the thing above 15k and just about ANYTHING will outperform it. Not to mention it has no droptanks, low ammo loadout, low-moderate velocity 20mm cannons, poor visibility, and no external ordinance. It is NOT a superplane.
I just don't get it. You keep saying "Look at XXX its too good", but we already have other planes that are just as good. Either its a standard or its not a standard. If it applies to one, it should apply to all. Show me any stat that you think is too good for the LA7, and I will show you several planes in the current planeset that can do it just as well.
What it really comes down to is that people couldn't handle the fact that a VVS fighter should be in the competition as one of the best freely available arena planes.
*GASP* you mean the Americans, Germans, and British actually had someone that could build a comparable combat aircraft in the war? NEVER!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Well, I can't speak for the others in my squad, but for a dedicated Pony driver, I'm kinda tickled to have some choice.
Btw...the data on the B vs. D models at www.mustangsmustangs.com (http://www.mustangsmustangs.com) differs from what most of you have stated regarding performance comparisons...who to believe? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thanks HTC...btw nice arena...kinda brings back some memories of along time ago (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Out!
[This message has been edited by Ice (edited 03-02-2001).]
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The increase in German planes is great as far as I'm concerned. There've always been many german a/c, but they've never been as competitive as now - and the Ta152 and Arado are completely alone in their field as high-altitude fighter and very high-speed bomber. What's not to love? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I also REALLY like the look of that P51B. Could become a runstang dweeb yet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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What it really comes down to is that people couldn't handle the fact that a VVS fighter should be in the competition as one of the best freely available arena planes.
*GASP* you mean the Americans, Germans, and British actually had someone that could build a comparable combat aircraft in the war?
It looks like there will STILL be no unperked RAF fighter later than mid 1942 in the game, so don't whine too much about your LA7.
When I first got interested in AH over a year ago, the only British plane in it was the Spit F IX, which entered combat in early summer 42. It looked out of place against a plane set that included the P51D, F4U1C, 109G10 etc. It is afterall the worst type of Spit IX produced, only 300 or so being made before they added major improvements.
I waited for better RAF planes to be added. Along came the Spit V (early 41) and Typhoon (mid41, though we have a version that was produced from 42 on). Then we had a Seafrie. The Seafire IIC, the very worst of the entire line, slower even than the Seafire IB.
Meanwhile every other country bar Italy has at least 1 1944 fighter, most have several.
If you run through a list of the best mainstream 1944 fighters for each side they would be:
USA
P51D (got)
P38L (got)
P47D (got)
F4U1D (got)
Germany
109G10/K4 (got)
190D9 (got)
Japan
A6M5 (got)
N1k2 (got)
Russia
Yak9U (got)
La7 (possible perk)
Britain
Spit XIV (no sign)
Spit LF IX (no sign)
Tempest (perked)
Britain has the oldest plane set in the game, older even than the Italians, not noted for their late war uberplanes.
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Wow.. this surprised me for 190D9.
But I knew another was P51B (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Who's Ram? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Who's "Tronspir" ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Who's Mass? Who's Zzzzz? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ummm Nashwan, did you ever go test the Spit IX?
I know its suppose to be a F, but unless its changed in the past revision (and it was not listed under the "Fixes"), its Max Speed and the critical altitude, is much closer to a HF.
And if your flying the Spit IX with the .50's then you ARE flying the 1944 bird and not the 1942 bird. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) (And we both know which is flown more in AH)
Oh and you forgot the Typhoon and the Lancaster in your list of British planes added since you started.
So no matter how you cut it, the general AH population is not flying a 1942 F varient.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-02-2001).]
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I do not quite understand why ShVAKs are so crappy in AH as compared to 6 50s and MG151s.
Even if to go only by muzzle velocity, rate of fire and projectile weight ShVAKs are better. In addition to that there were some types of amunition for soviet guns that made them more effective than competitors.
Here is the data:
(Type Muzzle Vel. ROF Proj.Weight)
ShVAK(20mm) 800m/s 800rpm 96 grams
MG151(20mm) 780m/s 700rpm 90 grams
Hispano(20mm)860m/s 800rpm 130 grams
US M3(12.7mm) 800m/s 750rpm 43 grams
UB-12.7mm 860m/s 1000rpm 48 grams
MG131(13mm) 700m/s 800rpm 36 grams
US M4(37mm) 700m/s 130rpm 650 grams
MK-103(30mm) 580m/s 200rpm 330 grams
MK-108(30mm) 500m/s 600rpm 330 grams
NS-37(37mm) 900m/s 250rpm 735 grams
So, Hispano does look better, but that's the only 20mm gun that is better than ShVAK if to compare only by these three parameters.
Some of the more complicated metrics that can be used are:
weight of a one-second burst;
"quality" of a gun = (m*(v^2)*n)/(2*g*60*M)
where, m - projectile weight (kg)
v - muzzle velocity (m/s)
n - rate of fire (per min)
g - gravity acceleration (9.8 m/s^2)
M - gun's weight (kg)
Also, I heard statements that even one 20mm and 2 12.7mm have more destructive power than 6 12.7mm (these statements were based on tests and pilots' experience).
Here's an excerpt from TsAGI study (chapter assessing lend-lease aircraft):
"Soviet and foreign fighters differed significantly in the positioning and power of their armament. Central positioning of armament, typical for Soviet fighters, allowed for better concentration of fire than wing positioning, typical for US and British aircraft. And this was so even though the rate of fire on Soviet aircraft was reduced due to the synchronization needed to fire through the proppeller area. So that to increase concentration and effectiveness of fire, the british and americans were forced to increase the number of guns, which resulted both in increase of the aircraft weight and the moment of inertia relative to the nose-tail axis. Because of this the responsiveness of the aircraft to the pilot's roll control inputs was worsened. It must be noted that even though the P-51B and D (that had only machine-guns) had higher weight of a burst, their effectiveness of fire was lower than that of the La-7, Yak-3, and "Spitfire" armed with cannon."
Here's what Oleg Maddox (Il-2 game creator, long-time aerospace industry engineer) had to say about some of the ammo used in USSR:
"Also 12,7 mm rounds for UB, BK and UBT had versions with contact explosure.
Such shells(rounds) used mostly on IL-2 rear gunner UBT as well as on most Russian bombers.
Less use of such shells on fighters was in the first period of the war, but from 1943 all planes were supplied with such power rounds.
So there was each third with traccer and others with explosure...
It was much more effective than say German 13 and 15 mm MG and of course more effective than US and UK MGs (There was total replacement of weapon on the lend-lease planes. Even on aircobra there is known such replacement of 12,7 mm US MG's, but not so many replacements than on Lend lease Hurricanes, P-40s and Spits)
Lend lease bombers also had replacement of weapon. Say such as A-20 even had Russian design turret as much more effective than original.
So, if someone think that one high speed 20 mm cannon and one 12,7 mm MG on Russian fighters was not enough, should read Hartmann's description with comparison - One gun is more effective then 6 MGs on US fighters. (And of course is big advantage when cannons are nose mounted).
The old time docs comparison with shot-weight per sec isn't so correct and can be used only as a basic comparison in additional to type and explosure effect of shells/rounds."
[This message has been edited by Wisk-=VF-101=- (edited 03-02-2001).]
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Verm I did mention the Typhoon.
The Spit in AH is an F IX. It climbs like an F IX (actually slightly worse than an F IX should climb, and miles off an LF or HF IX.
Critical alt may be wrong, I don't know, but that only means it performs too well at 20000ft+, where very little action takes place anyway. An LF IX would be far better for the sort of fights in AH, as well as being more historicaly representitive.
The gun package on the Spit IX is an anomally, the E wing was afaik never fitted to the F IX, all production of that model had stopped long before the E wing was introduced.
In other words we have a 1944 gun package attached to a basic 1942 Spit. It has none of the performance benifits of the later Spit IXs.
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Nashwan,
Your list of the best 1944 Japanese fighters should read as follows:
Japan
Ki84 (no sign)
N1K2 (got)
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-02-2001).]
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YYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSS!!!! DORA NINE!!! WOHOWWWW!!!! YES THANK YOU EVERYBODY ON HTC!!! THANK YOU!!!!! WHOYA! YES!!! THERE IS A GOD AND HE GAVE ME THE DORA!!! YES YES YES!!!!
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/jg5wilbus.gif)
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Have you ever looked at the climbrate of either the Typhoon (up to 10k) or the G10? Both can already climb as well, actually much better, than the La7.
The G-10 yes(and it should certainly be perked if the La-7 is, as should the D-9 and P-51D), but:
Whaaaaaaa? Typhoon climbing like the La-7?!
UTTER roadkill!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
From 0 to 10k the Typhoon's climbrate drops from a mighty 3400fpm to a massive 2700fpm, with WEP.
Compare that to the La-7: at s/l well over 4700fpm, dropping to 3500fpm at 10k.
Hmmm...
As for Spits: the Spitfire F.IX does have some engine/performance related FM issues(hence no chart on the HTC site), but it's top speed and critical altitudes(15k and 28k) are correct for the Merlin 61 powered F.IX. The E wing, 300 litre??? drop tank and rockets are wrong wrong wrong for the F.IX though. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Originally posted by J_A_B:
Basically, the B outperforms the D in every way, but not by much.
J_A_B
Actually, that isn`t true.
D`s different wings offering a much better high speed turn ability.
The D out rolls the B.
Flying the Mustang fast, as it should be flown, the D`s better turn & roll are nice to have.
But the B`s slight edge in speed at high alt, better acceleration, and climb are nice too.
B & D, Pros & Cons, he he, love em both. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Pyro said:
If we got to working on P-47s this version, we would have done a razorback D as well.
Oh please let it be so for next version! A 47 Razorback... C or D, maybe an M or N thrown in there. Hmmm, time to send HTC some scotch I think. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!