Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: AirFlyer on July 19, 2008, 12:56:22 AM
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I've been using manual trim recently with some mixed results, though it has saved me from a few compression. But now I'm curious if elevator trim can give any sort of turning advantage in an A6M5b. This might seem like over-kill in a Zeke but when against an other A6M I want to be able to use everything at my disposal to get more out of my plane.
So long story short is, can using elevator trim make an A6M5b turn better?
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You may get a slight increase in turning radius, but it probably won't be anything fight deciding at such low speeds. Besides, it's probably more likely to hurt you by making your gun platform (plane) less stable than with combat trim.
If you want to tighten your turns up, especially in slow TnBs, try beginning by using the throttle more, as holding your plane at full throttle hinders most planes more than pilots realize.
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As has been stated over and over.
Manually trimming your plane will not make it turn faster"
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As has been stated over and over.
Manually trimming your plane will not make it turn faster"
Yes, Mtnman has a very comprehensive write up just recently in another thread regarding this. You are right that manual ele trin can save you from compression but it will not give you a turning advantage. However, leaving your combat trim off, WILL give you a turning advantage, especially as you get slow.
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As has been stated over and over.
Manually trimming your plane will not make it turn faster"
i never leave auto trim on, i feel it fighting me when i get slow.....especially in the p38.. in the 38, i also do feel as i can get around a bit faster if i trim full up. only other ride i've tried that in was the hurri2, while i was turning with a zeke. i didn't survive long enough to feel if it helped or not
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As has been stated over and over.
Manually trimming your plane will not make it turn faster"
Yes and no. In few cases it can help tighten turn radius (at certain speeds), better control response (stick push at slow speeds, torque control, etc), and in some cases make airplane do what suppose not to be possible.
In AH1 combat trim was nearly instantaneous, it made no sense, except at higher speeds for select planes, adjusting trim manually.
AH2 is different. Combat trim is slower. Furthermore, in some cases it is used to simulate control heaviness at high speeds for some rides and with manual trim you get performance which historically wasn't there.
That said, manual trim won't make you fly better until you're good enough to squeeze maximum out of your plane. Even then, you won't have time to trim plane during combat (at least in most cases). Usually you'd adjust your trim before entering fight for specific speed range. That would mean, your ride might not perform best in all regimes.
So, in short, leave the manual trim for now, unless you are looking for that extra immersion.
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So long story short is, can using elevator trim make an A6M5b turn better?
Alzheimer's, forgot to answer specific A6M5b question :D
Yes at higher speeds up to the pilot's G limit and structural strength (wings can rip off). Once bellow 250 or so, no it won't help you at all.
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Alzheimer's, forgot to answer specific A6M5b question :D
Yes at higher speeds up to the pilot's G limit and structural strength (wings can rip off). Once bellow 250 or so, no it won't help you at all.
Boss you still flying? Haven't seen you in ages.
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Boss you still flying? Haven't seen you in ages.
I do, just not as much as I used to.
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If your plane is compressed, or near compressed, yes, manual trim will help you in a turn.
In certain situations, turning Off combat trim also helps you out.
BUT to be clear what we are discussing, manually trimming the plane does not increase the planes maximum turning ability.
i.e. you won't turn tighter in a stall fight because you manually trimmed.
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manually trimming the plane does not increase the planes maximum turning ability.
It does for certain planes at certain speeds. Try to merge in a Ki-84 at 300-350mph with combat trim on and then with manually trimmed elevator and you'll see the difference.
Advantage won't last long, but tighter lead turn often means enough gain in angles to win the fight.
you won't turn tighter in a stall fight because you manually trimmed.
I didn't say that.
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We were discussing this in another thread...... manually trimming the plane absolutely will help u turn better with flaps....compared to someone who does not manually trim....... the reason Combat trim overrides the flaps... So in the a6m5 if it gets to were u need the flaps u want to already have your plane trimmed out..... I have flown the a6m5 extensively there are very few pilots that are going to give you a fight were u get into a flap situation... I have only ever needed it a6m5 against a6m2....
The real trick is making sure the other pilot is in a flap situation "with" u or he is just going to nose down for a second or two then take the fight vertical. Which is were most fights are going to start and finish with a6m the good sticks will not turn with an a6m...it always ends up i the vertical..
If you want to win fights in the a6m against most other planes you have to get the over shoot. and get them on the rope. When you start getting compliments like " thats the fastest zeke ive ever seen" or "how fast were you going at the merge" you know your getting there....
It doesnt have any thing to do with manually trimming the plane you guys are answering the wrong question.. it has to do with turning Combat trim off so it does not negate the flaps. number one and number two combat trim is not instant and does not work well at high speeds and low speeds read the HTC web site on combat trim.
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explain exactly what you mean about CT overiding flaps.
i'm lost.
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Ack-ack communicated poorly in that thread. I was going to chime in, but a trainer had already posted with correct info. Combat trim does not compensate for flaps or external loads. It trims for X speed at a clean configuration. If you are a X speed with flaps deployed, you will be turning when your joystick is centered rather than being relatively neutral (little or no pitch, yaw, or roll change). This may be undesired for the pilot, but it does not negate anything as far as performance. All CT effectively does is change the resting point of the virtual stick in the game in relation to the center point of your joystick.
There are reasons players may not want CT effectively fiddling with their control input in the background, but it is an issue ease and precision of controls to get the plane to perform exactly as desired. It does not affect plane performance itself. And again the only time manual trim can make a plane turn better is if you are going so fast, that the pilot cannot exert enough force on the stick to move the controls.
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It does not affect plane performance itself.
Not quite true for some planes at some speeds.
For example, KI-84's CT trims the elevators down (bellow neutral) at speeds of 250mph and above, so you can't get full elevator deflection.
Above 330-340mph it doesn't matter since you'd hit the max G limits anyways, but bellow that, all the way down to about 250mph, you'd gain some. 250-300mph in particular, is very sweet spot for KI-84.
So in that speed range and for that plane it does affect turning performance.
I'm sure there are examples for other rides as well, either in terms of handling or performance itself.
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No it is exactly true you are describing limitations of the simulated pilot not the plane. I addressed that issue in the same post.
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No it is exactly true you are describing limitations of the simulated pilot not the plane. I addressed that issue in the same post.
Well, that's splitting the hair. I'll rephrase. CT limits performance in some circumstances. Is that better?
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Well, that's splitting the hair.
Yea, sorry about that...Hard to avoid. It's a myth control issue.
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explain exactly what you mean about CT overiding flaps.
i'm lost.
I think what I am trying to say is best described by mtnman in other thread.. If your splitting hairs override is a bad explanation of what I am trying to convey....... I think someone with your experience already knows that. I am trying to get people off CT and see the difference for them selfs. I said basically the same thing mtnman said mine was a bit more of a generalization.
Ya it doesn't work that WAY... if your splitting hairs but the effect is the same.
" "You CAN leave CT on during the whole fight. It does a pretty good job of trimming the plane in the "normal" range of speeds. However, at high or low speeds, "dirty" configurations (flaps or gear deployed, or an off-center DT), or flight attitudes other than level and straight, it has some quirks that could cause it to be seen as a "handicap". CT works very well for basic flying, but not so great for more drastic flight attitudes and maneuvers.[/glow]
It basically trims the plane (or tries to) so that at whatever direction you point the plane, the trims try to compensate and minimize the required deflection of the stick from neutral.
For example, if you go into a prolonged dive at a given trim setting, without adjusting the trim, as speed builds your nose would have a tendency to come up. If you didn't dial in some down elevator trim, you'd be required to hold the stick forward to maintain your dive angle. In AH, dialing in the down trim happens automatically with the CT. As your speed builds in the dive, more and more down trim is added until it maxes out at full down trim. This is nice in the dive, because you don't need to hold the stick forward as much, but not so nice when your trying to pull out of the dive. In this case, your trying to pull up, but the trim is fully down! See the problem? This is what most people think of as "compression", but really it isn't.
Keep in mind too that "more" isn't necessarily "better" in terms of control surface movement either. Imagine if we could deflect our elevator fully 90 degrees up. How effective would that be? What if we could go beyond that, so the elevator actually pointed forward?
It doesn't take long for people to realize that using manual up trim makes dive recovery easier. However, they often assume it helps for the wrong reason, and then confusion sets in. The assumption is that it helps because it seems to give additional up elevator. It doesn't! It gives less down elevator trim! Visually, it has the same effect, but in reality it's not the same thing.
It's funny you mention dialing in full up elevator for turn fights. That's "funny", because that's basically what the auto CT will do eventually too. You're basically just rushing to handicap yourself in the same manner as the CT would.
As speed builds, CT dials in down elevator trim to minimize your required stick inputs to maintain the dive. Guess what it does as speed drops...
In reality, as your speed drops, your nose would feel "heavier", and start to drop. More "back" force on the stick would be required to hold the nose up. In its goal to minimize your work, CT dials in more and more up elevator as you slow down, until it maxes out at full up as you near stall speed. Stall speed and full up elevator is a great way to get in trouble... Also, if you go full down elevator at this point to reverse, dive out, or whatever, CT still has full up trim, and is effectively "fighting" you.
Especially in the last example, the CT could be seen as costing you E. The up elevator trim is a handicap at that point, whether it's from CT, or done by you on purpose. Vertical maneuvers (especially ropes) can benefit from having CT disabled.
Another example- roll inverted, and maintain inverted flight. You'll be forced to use LOTS of down elevator, especially as speed drops. What does CT do to help? It dials in UP elevator, which is exactly the "wrong" input! Ever fly inverted during a fight? Or at least "not level"? Is CT helping you?
How 'bout landing? Notice as you chop the throttle and slow down you need a fair amount of left aileron. Why? Not because the plane wants to roll right... Because the CT is still trimming for the left torque of the engine, which is now gone because you've reduced throttle...
Flap use causes CT to do some odd things too. Normally I'd expect a bit of down elevator trim as I drop a notch, CT puts in some up instead... CT is off in my plane when the flaps get dropped.
Understanding how the CT works is a requirement to understanding how it doesn't always benefit you. It isn't perfect, nor is it terrible. It helps here, and hurts there. So does Manual Trim. Using either incorrectly is a handicap. Failing to utilize them both is a handicap (IMO). Simply dialing in full up for a turn fight isn't a beneficial, correct use of manual trim, at least IMO.
I use both. I have it disabled, but have it mapped to a thumb button so that I can have it on/off when I want it. Manually trimming turns it off as well. I do best with it OFF by default, and have it accessible when I "ask" for it.
I use CT for ALL of my "normal" flying. Back and forth between bases, and "easy" maneuvering and fighting. I've developed a feel for where I'm better off with it, or without it. When my flying begins to deviate from "normal", I turn it off. When it returns to normal, I turn it back on. A two-minute fight may see it on/off 10 times. That's just how I do it... YMMV
BTW, I don't fly 38's much, so this post is more about CT in general. That said, the 38 is a good, if not great, plane to practice some manual trim with, due to it's low torque.
MtnMan "
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I think what I am trying to say is best described by mtnman in other thread.. If your splitting hairs override is a bad explanation of what I am trying to convey....... I think someone with your experience already knows that. I am trying to get people off CT and see the difference for them selfs. I said basically the same thing mtnman said mine was a bit more of a generalization.
Ya it doesn't work that WAY... if your splitting hairs but the effect is the same.
Override or negate flaps are bad explanations as I said, and it is not hair splitting. It does not in any way hamper the physical effects of flaps. The flaps work the same regardless. What it does do is force you to push forward on your joystick to keep the nose from "ballooning".
The cons of CT being used with flaps boil down to this...
- Less range of motion on your joystick between stick center and backstick to input max AoA. ie. You can barely pull back on the stick before hitting the edge of controlled flight (because you're so far out of tirm).
- Neutral pitch moves far forward of your joystick center. ie. You have to jamb the stick forward if the bogie stops making sustained turns. Not a good hand/arm position to do accurate shooting from. You may even be so far out of trim, that you can't push negative G's with your joystick.
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not splitting hairs...............I can accept that.. :aok I am just trying to exspress what I think I am exsperancing.......I may be toataly ignorant how HOW something works but I would like to discuss WHAT is going on....
Let me ask the questioin myself.
If two pilots with equal skill up a6m5...every thing is the same exsept.... one pilot leaves combat trim on. and the other manualy trims... IN a turn fight with flaps deployed will one plane out turn the other?
<S>
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If two pilots with equal skill up a6m5...every thing is the same exsept.... one pilot leaves combat trim on. and the other manualy trims... IN a turn fight with flaps deployed will one plane out turn the other?
No
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Perhaps not phrased so simply here:
Your elevator goes N degrees up at max deflection, your elevator with full "up" trim still only goes N degrees at full deflection + full trim.
You get no extra range of motion. It's purely an "ease of handling in this situation" type of benefit.
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Perhaps not phrased so simply here:
Your elevator goes N degrees up at max deflection, your elevator with full "up" trim still only goes N degrees at full deflection + full trim.
You get no extra range of motion. It's purely an "ease of handling in this situation" type of benefit.
but being as it's already up a small amount, it gives you a slightly quicker reaction to input?
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If you had full up elevator before even pulling back you have other problems and have probably wasted more time and effort fighting the stick up until that point than you saved by having the trim already set.
Combat trim only hurts a select few planes in this game, P-38s and Ki84s among them. For most other "turny" planes it's no detriment to turning.
IMO unless you plan to take hands off the stick and still expect to turn with an opponent, trimming full up for a turn fight is folly.
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but being as it's already up a small amount, it gives you a slightly quicker reaction to input?
Hardly, because if it's up at lets say normal merge speeds, you'd have to apply stick pressure before merge to keep it in level flight.
In theory, changing from pressure to pull takes longer than pulling alone.
If you're quicker than the rest, chances are, your plane can't follow your input as quickly anyways.