Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: GrinBird on August 24, 2000, 09:30:00 AM
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I have now been a part of the AcesHigh community for allmost year, and I have experienced a lot of problems concerning the bombers in main arena.
Both in the arena and on this BBS there has been a lot of controversy about the balance between bombers and fighters during that time. Sometimes (in some of the versions) it has been the bomberpilots who has been unhappy, - and sometimes (as it is now) it is the fighterpilots who are unhappy. Most of these discussions has been about adjustments to the firepower of the bombers, but I think its no longer enough to discuss the subject at that level, we gotta look at the issue in a much wider perspective. And that means we gotta look at bombers role in the overall gameplay in AcesHigh. If you wanna read on, you can as well get a beer and a comfy chair, because this post is gonna be huge (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I dont think its enough to discuss the gunnery balance of the heavy bombers in AH. I think that the cause of the problems is to be found in the role the bombers have in the gameplay. As it is now the bombers have two roles in AcesHigh :
1) A tactical role. The bombers are the fastet and most effective tool to shut down bases.
2) A strategic role. The bombers can be used for bombing cities, factories and Headquarter. Bombing strategic targets will affect the enemys overall moral and abillity to fight on.
Lets discuss number 2 first. In WW2 the Bombers had a strategic role only. Many historians agree on that the strategic bombing was overestimated and wasnt really important in winning the war, but I think it is okay to make the strategic bombing important in AcesHigh, because it gives a good gameplay and dosent affect the realism in other areas. More of that later.
I consider the role in #1 as a big problem in AcesHigh, and even worse: I think the role has a long row of implications thats distorts the gameplay and realism all over the game. In WW2 B17s were used for firebombing cities, they couldent be used for closing airbases - they wasnt accurate enuf for that. They had trouble with hitting the right part of the city, and only by starting a firestorm they could do significant damage.
But for me the biggest problem with the bombers tactic role in AcesHigh is that they push a very importantant factor out of the gameplay, - namely the highprecision divebombing! In WW2 airbases were shut down by bombing and strafing from eg. Mosquitoes and Tiffies. In AcesHigh its not like that at all.
Even if a pilot or a whole squadron in AcesHigh specialized in hitting Hangars with fighterbombing they would never be able to compete with a B26 or a B17 because the game is adjustet so it all fits to the heavybombers. A Tiffie with 2 1000 lbs bombs cant even take a fighter hangar out, because the Hangars are adjustet after the B17s, and takes more bombs than a Tiffie can carry. Where is the realism in that? Hmm imagine yourself standing inside a Hangar while a Tiffie dropped a 500lbs bomb though the tin-roof! My main point is that the bombers in AH writes an important element out of the history. And the problem will get worse and worse as the game developes. Why attack a ship with torpedo carrying fighters if you can drop a 1000 lbs bomb right down the chimney from 10K with a B26?
My suggestion is that the Bombers role gets completely redefined. The strategic element in AcesHigh should be made more important, there should be more and bigger cities, factory areas etc.
The bombers role should be to gather a formation and escort, and bomb these areas with firebombs and drain the ressources of the enemy.
The game should be adjustet so we would see whole squadrons specialized in attacking airbases with fighterbombers, the heavy bombers shouldn’t be able to hit a base enough to damage it, but could instead bomb the nearby city, so the enemy wouldent have infrastructure to rebuild their airbase right away.
I know that some would say that a strategic role for the bombers isnt fun enough to make ppl fly them. All I gotta say is: Well…. ppl have the choice, if they think its boring to bomb strategic targets then they can grab a Tiffie and attack an airbase with that. And if they don’t want to firebomb cities in AcesHigh then they also say that they are not interestet in a historical correct simulation of the B17. I am sure that after some time ppl with a genuine interest in a realistic B17-simulation would find their way to AcesHigh, - find each other and start some real pretty formations of bombers with P51s as top cover. That’s what I would like to see.
I know it’s a hard job to learn the ACM needed for divebombing in a fighter but its fun, and ppl do still have the tanks to start up in, while they gain the needed fighter skill.
I think AcesHigh would be a much more fun game with these changes, and I think we would get rid of a lot of frustrations in main arena if HTC changed the game this way.
I hope this post will give a good discussion, - because that’s why I wrote it.
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GrinBird
[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-24-2000).]
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They are called scenarios. They are what you are looking for.
We could debate the real roles of all the aircraft in AH. These aircraft aren't in the main arena to fight a war... they are there simply to fight. Each plane has to have some level of contribution meritting the use of the aircraft. The precision bombing of the buffs is about the only way to justify a 45 minute trip to HQ.
As for the P47 not taking down a hangar... next time you release the bomb, check and see how much ammo you have in those 8 .50's... and look at that additional 500 pound bomb... and those 8 rockets. A P47 flow effectively can do more damage than any single bomber.
In one sortie, myself and another pilot (both in P47s) took out a vBase (ack and hangar) and then an airfield (ack, vh, fh(2) and bh). That's tough to do with any two bombers.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 08-24-2000).]
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Deja.... I was looking for a simulation and I thought I had found it in AcesHigh.
A game like Quake2 is based on a story with its own logic. If you wanna adjust the gameplay, you can put in a double barreled freeze gun with poison titanium nails - no problem! - Because it fits fine into the story and universe that Quake2 is build on. - But that dosent mean that you can put anything in there! A Spitfire eg. would look very strange and distort the whole gameplay and internal logic of the game.
IMHO the difference between a game and a simulation, is that a game can be based on any story. It can be siencefiction pulpfiction, fantasy, D&D You name it!
A simulation is different from other kinds of games because it gotta be related some way to real life. And a historic sim like AH gotta be as closely related to the history as it was as posible. - Else its not a sim but just another game.
I want a simulation on all levels. I want the planes modelled right, I want the battles modelled right. I want to take bases as bases were taken in World War II. - With tanks,fighterbombers and strafing fighters.
I dont want to see Bombers overmodelled to make people fly them more, I dont want to see Bombers (which in real war couldent even hit a footballstadion from 10K) hit a 1*1 yard area with 100 % precision.
If you just want a game, and I want a sim then we do not want the same, and we gotta live with that.
Your point with the P47s I like very much because it shows how few adjustments to gameplay it would take to let divebombing replace the Highprecision B26 and B17s.
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GrinBird
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
In one sortie, myself and another pilot (both in P47s) took out a vBase (ack and hangar) and then an airfield (ack, vh, fh(2) and bh). That's tough to do with any two bombers.
AKDejaVu
Really?...dont think so.
2 bombers, one with 250lbs and other with 1000lbs.
The one with 250 kills the ack at the Vh and then both come down to straffe the VH. cost:2 250lbs. bombs left: 14 250lbs, 6 1000lbs.
Then they proceed (climbing) to an airfield. The 1000 pounder kills the Vh and one FH, the 250lbs kills the ack. Then they go down and straffe the airfield, killing the other FH, the BH and all structures.
Then they climb again and proceed to another VH, the 250lb B17 throws 2 bombs on ack and they straffe again.
And there would still be some 250lbs to throw elsewhere.
Try that with a P47.
Anyway, in a realistic simulator there is no place for pinpoint accuracy at 25K, that for sure.
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That's BS ram. Pure and simple.
2 B17's flying above ack.. then diving down to straff.. then climbing back up to get above it for the next base? Maybe you have all day to take these two bases down?
And.. just how many rounds are you going to be able to pump into those hangars?
We had enough ammo to take everything down.. coulda probably cleaned up another vBase. Oh.. and the fighter that came up wasn't really a problem either.
I know what I've done in a p47. You say what you think "could" be done in a b17. I think your theory is BS.
As far as what is/shouldn't be possible in a simulator... remember this is a game. Respawning shouldn't be possible in a realistic sim... nor should any single aircraft capturing a base... nor should a low level run by a c47 in enemy territory without risk of enemy ground fire... nor should respawning to defend a base... nor should knowing excatly where to hit each and every base to shut down ack... nor should shutting down ack eliminate all posibility of ground fire... nor should 10 drunks being dropped over an enemy field just because ack is down... nor should being able to bomb a field without anyone realizing it... nor should flying all game with throttle wide open... nor should being able to set auto pilot then go to the rest-room... nor should being able to fly through friendly aircraft... nor should having a single keystroke start the engines.
All I know is that bombers in the arena are not the end-all be-all of anything. If a pilot is willing to take an hour to get to alt in one.. only to be able to take out ack OR take down a couple of hangars.. then more power to them. I'm more worried about the enemy fighters that may be in the area. That is how it is... and that is how it should be. Single unacompanied bombers are not a threat.
AKDejaVu
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Actually, Jabo has a big role to play in AH, and alot of people use it. You'll see more jabos than buffs IMO.
Not long ago the Musketeers...7 of us took down an Airbase in under 2 minutes with P-47's loaded with rockets. That means ack, hangars and everything. It can and has been done. The knits do a very nice job of using Jabo on fields!
No 2 buffs can do that, and do it that quickly.
Also, Grinbird, I think you might be forgetting about the role that medium bombers played in taking down and strafing airfields (B-25 and B-26's with their forward firing machine guns and low-level bomb drops)
Cobra
[This message has been edited by Cobra (edited 08-24-2000).]
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I agree with ya Cobra. I will put the VMF 323 up against 2 buffs on a field capture any day.
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Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache)
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Sounds good Cobra and Apache. I suppose that it means that you have nothing against if heavy bombers were modelled for strategic bombing?
And Cobra I would like if you can give some documentation on the B26 strafing you talk about. I would have nothing against B26s bombing and strafing that way if its historical correct. And that means that the bombs shall be placed and aimed the same difficult way as if you drop a bomb from a fighter. And that means that the pilot gotta have a feeling how fast the bomb will travel and how fast it will drop. In WW2 high precision bombers were made by divebombing, and other kinds of bombing could never be as precise as that. In AH its the other way round as it is now.
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GrinBird
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AKDejaVu,you are 100% correct IMO . The amount of damage 2 fully loaded and properly flown P-47 s can do to a base is frightening.
Let alone just 2 P-47s with just 3400rounds of ammo individually.
Jabo plays a big part in my AH game play.
So do large scale bombing attacks on a HQ.
But i know one thing for sure no bomber has pushed me out of the Jabo attack.
Maybe thats because I have been fortunate to link up with a group of people who enjoy Jabo as much as I do.
Dang it Ram! You let the cat out of the bag. I was considering similar attacks like that once the Ju88 arrived.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). But in a B17 hehe, not my cup of tea. But no doubt tactics like that are used , heck I even know some guys who lone wolf Jabo a HQ.
Peoples ingenuity in games /sims never cease to amaze me.
GrinBird here is some historical crazy buff driving (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
From Peter Townsend DUEL OF EAGLES
"In his Ju 88 bomber of Lehrgeschwader 1, Hans Joachim (Jocho) Helbrig roared off the ground just after 4 am, also heading for Brest Litovsk. Suddenly he sighted a Polish fighter below. Helbig's hunting instints got the better of him. He put the bomber into a dive and tore down on the fighter while his observer and rear gunner poured bullets into it until its wings collapsed.
The observer Photographed the wreckage.
When Helbig reported the combat to the Gefeechtsmeldung back at base no one would believe this tall story of a bomber attacking a fighter. But Helbig had the photo proof and Lehrgeschwader 1 recorded its first air victory."
So there it is. Historical proof that the incredible did happen. There are lots of fantastic deeds and feats done by bombers and their crews,they are just not as widely documented. Im sure if some one was well read enough or did indepth research on buffs strafing . They would come out with more evidence that things like this happened.
I wonder what the hapless Polish pilot thought when this German attacked him with a fully loaded JU88. But i can say with some degree of certainty that it was not the Polish equivalent of "DWEEB"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Baddawg (edited 08-24-2000).]
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I wish you guys would quit trying to neuter the bombers, a *lot* of people like to fly buff missions-but if you take away their accuracy you won`t see anymore of them,ditto for the "turbo laser" buff whines.
Give us more buffs HTC! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Good post Baddawg! I suppose you have nothing against if HTC models the Bombers into AcesHigh gameplay the way I suggestet?
And to you Jihad.. I read my posts in this thread through once again.. I didnt find one single whine. I made an analasys of how game follow the historic facts as it is now, and I made suggestions to how it could be made better. Thats not whining.
My point was that the high precision isnt needed if the bombers role were redefined to beeing strategic bombers. So the bombers would still have an important role, for the pilots who wants to fly a realistic simulation.
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GrinBird
[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-24-2000).]
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For field capture JABO is the way to go. I've seen the Musketeers handywork, and they're a pretty good act when they're hot.
I've flown with VMF 323 on field attacks, and I'm glad they're on our side.
I've helped organize and lead JABO strikes on fields that have taken a medium field completely down and ready for capture in 60 seconds or less. Then we land, rearm/refuel (goon too), and head for the next base on our target list. I'm sure many people can attest to how effective this tactic is when we get organized and really get on a roll. Been many a night we Knights have blazed a trail across the map, taking 3, 4, or 5 bases (then cleaning up V fields) in a relatively short time.
Bombers, for the most part, have been relegated to use for hitting city/factorys (though tanks do a marvelous job at this), HQs, and large fields (though good JABO pilots can deack the field, even through the 88s, with proper tactics (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ).
Oh yeah, and ackstarring for the dweebs.
[edited for typos =\]
[This message has been edited by CavemanJ (edited 08-24-2000).]
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GrinBird I would love to see that type of bombing instituted by HTC. But.....
I dont think that at this time our computers are powerful enough to calculate and effectively display damage.
No doubt in time this will come ,just as clouds have started to arrive more and more in flight sims. And have an effect on gameplay .
The bombing you describe GrinBird will be part of the future of ONLINE flight sims. Large scaled cities that can be decimated or have industrial areas to be hit. Growing fires ect all of this combining strategicaly to weaken the enemys resources.
Its coming but unfortunately at this point in time we are going to have to wait.
Right now certain games have very complex physic engines, Some have a large world of individual destructable objects, Panzer Elite,
Or real world gravity physics like
Myth the Fallen Lords ect
I for one am looking forward to B17 II, which might turn out to be the quintesential buff game but it might take a hog of processor, and still not give us the hard core we want.
I think as each year passes we get closer to something that you describe. I want it now but I resign myself to waiting. Damit even if I get to be 95 years old I hope to be able to fire up my PXIII and fly and fight in cyber WW2 ,and i will be able to tell my Grandchildren that i remember the time In the year 2000 that I was able to hit an ack gun emplacement with one bomb from 20K+.
I can hear the laughter now.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Said what I had to say in the other thread about buffs and gameplay.
I prefer Jabo runs over a B-26 or B-17 anyday.
strafe the ack, kill the VH, kill all the fuel, ammo, rader, and barracks with one P-47 and soften up the FH's while at it.
Show me a lone B-17 or a B-26 that can do that in under 5 minutes.
So...GB, what exactly do you think those forward firing MG's on the B-26 are for anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
And while the Norden was fairly accurate at up the 23k, the USAAF hit factories that were about the size of a football field on daily basis. More to do with who was programming the thing then sight itself. Oh well, your milage my vary. I'm still trying to figure how you got precision and dive-bombing put togather (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And RAM, how bout you and me hooking up to try your lil theory?
- Jig
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oops
[This message has been edited by CavemanJ (edited 08-24-2000).]
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Baddawg.. dont underestimate HTC. If they want to create bombing like that, they can do it.. and do it now.
And Jigster.. hitting factories from high altitude on daily basis by B17s? I have never heard about that. Precision bombing by divebombing was important in every scenerio in WW2, skilled pilots could hit certain stories of a building without hitting the roof. In close groundsupport fighters could do wonders by divebombing.
Let me quote Lizking from a discussion (http://www.wwiionline.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003711.html) on the WW2-online BBS, he is describing the "precision" of the heavy bombers in WW2.
Some numbers:
Cratering effects of bombs in sandy loam
BOMB SIZE/CRATER DEPTH/CRATER DIAMETER/LETHAL RADIUS(All are instant fuzes, measured in feet)
500#/2/9/60-90
1,000#/6/20/70-105
2,000#/7/22/83-125
Table 3 and 4, page 225, "America's Pursuit of Precision Bombing, 1910-1945",S tephen McFarlane.
Eighth Airforce Bombing Accuracy(1943)
All percentages are based on bombs landing within 1000' of the Assigned Aiming Point. Bombs over 3000' from the AAP were not counted.
Jan-15%
Feb-18%
Mar-19%
Apr-15%
May-14%
Jun-11%
Jul-12%
Aug-21%
Sep-15%
Oct-25%
Nov-31%
Dec-24%
(Figure 10.1, page 173, ibid)
Effects of altitude on Bombing Accuracy(Jan1-Nov 16, 1943)
ALTITUDE DROPPED/PERCENTAGE WITHIN 1,000 FEET OF AIMING POINT
27,500'/5%
24,000'/9%
21,000'/14%
18,000'/21%
15,000'/24%
12,000'/44%
[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-24-2000).]
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WW2 bombers weren't limited to just strategic bombing. Most (if not all) of the Luftwaffe bombers were tactical bombers, used to support infantry and ground units during an assault. It was the failure of the Luftwaffe to design an effective, long range, strategic bomber and thats one of the reasons that they lost the Battle of Britain. The bombers used then were tactical (Ju-87, He-111, Do-17), not designed to fly and hit distant targets. They were most effectively used in conjuction with ground units, where they mutually supported one another. When bombing of London started, the Luftwaffe was out of its league.
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Meine Schwester hat keine kartoffel salat? Du bist eine lustige Buba!!!
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GrinBird,
The only way to enforce your suggested rule would be to make bombsites inaccurate. If this were done, we'd never see buffs in the MA anymore. We don't have enough strategic stuff to hit, nor does what we have incur enough of a penalty on the enemy to justify much use of heavy bombers.
If we had factories that produced the various aircraft; say 1 factory per side for outdated stuff like Spitfire MkVb, C.202, A6M5b, Bf109F-4 and La5s, 2 factories for mid-range stuff like Ju88, Lancaster, Typhoon, B-26 and C.205s, 3 for high end stuff; then the heavy bombers could actually have a noticable effect on the war without pinpoint destruction of airfields. Under my idea, the last available unit of a given type could always be produced, for example a side could never be reduced to no bombers, no fighters, no tanks and no transports. If the last fighter available to one side is a Bf109G-2, and the factory that builds it is then destroyed or captured, that side could still build Bf109G-2s.
Sisu
-Karnak
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remove the zoom magnification power
everyone gave HTC kudos when they thought bombsight magnification was removed... then they found the zoom key and buffs went back up to 25k+
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
tone down the zoom or remove it completely and you retain pinpoint accuracy but only at realistic altitudes.
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Originally posted by GrinBird:
Baddawg.. dont underestimate HTC. If they want to create bombing like that, they can do it.. and do it now.
And Jigster.. hitting factories from high altitude on daily basis by B17s? I have never heard about that. Precision bombing by divebombing was important in every scenerio in WW2, skilled pilots could hit certain stories of a building without hitting the roof. In close groundsupport fighters could do wonders by divebombing.
Well remember not all planes or nations had reliable bomb releases. Dive bombing is much to the effect in AH...takes practice.
And the bomber formations...the whole bases on the "precision bombing" campaign was try to knock out key factory buildings for the strategic effort. Granted precision was not all good but enough planes releasing at the same time, and one is bound to hit it. Happened on a daily basis, provide weather and visibility was good enough to fly. From '43 up. Lots of people died on those bombers with the belief that they were doing precision raids and minimizing civilian casulties (till orders changed at least)
Blah, with as many duds and other factors contributing to dive bombing, it not as accurate as you might think. It sure is alot more dangerous to the pilots.
Again the Norden was a very accurate sight, but only under the right situations.
- Jig
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citabria you've hit the nail on the head i say..make it impossible to see targets clearly at height and the problem is solved.
SAY NO TO ZOOM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Grin I think you are labouring under a wrong assumption...
B17's were not THAT innacurate... They dropped alot of ordinance on a target but when they wanted precision they COULD get it. However most only used the lead aircraft's norton and dropped on his lead. That doesn't make for precision but it does make for good carpet effect which is what they wanted to take out entire industrial districts.
A firestorm to take out a target? BS! The firestorms were all done by night raids. Precision is a non-existant thing when you are bombing an entire city by night. They wanted concentration and plentiful amounts.. and they got it!
As for tactical bombing- sorry to pop your bubble but the Mosquito and B-26 basically did nothing but precision tactical bombs. Bridges tanks roads and rail lines were their targets and usually from 8-15k. From the bombarding of St. Lo right to the end of the war B-26's roamed all over europe doing this work. The exception to the rule is the few carpet bomb strategic runs B-26's did and the pathmarker work mossies did for night raids. HELL- one of the most precise bombings EVER done was by a Mosquito in Denmark on the SS headquarters there. Below rooftop level along the main street of a city to drop bombs precisly into the basement of the building.
And as some1 else pointed out- Luftwaffe (and VVS too BTW) basically had only tactical bombers like the Ju-88 for most of the war. And even luftwaffe did away with dive bombers by 44 due to the excessive losses incurred trying to bomb targets this way. Planes like the PE-2 could smoke tanks from 8k with ease using 250lb bombs. A bridge was a no brainer.
But I agree on one thing for sure- after 25k your zoom is waaaay to good for bombing. By that height an AAA should be a pinsalamander and only hangers and bunkers definable in the norden.
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Sorrow.. Mosquito was a divebomber! Or more correct a plane that was made for many different roles, fighterbomber, pure fighter lead bomber etc. The Shellhouse attack in Copenhagen was the one I referred to, and it was a divebombing attack, - a shallow dive down over the rooftops. You got something wrong here I would love to see the Mosquito and that kind of bombing in AcesHigh.
The same for all other kinds of bombers doing the same kind of job. The PE2 also the point is that that kind of bombing seems to be too difficult for the current Buff drivers since they wont have it.
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GrinBird
[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-25-2000).]
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The PE2 also the point is that that kind of bombing seems to be too difficult for the current Buff drivers since they wont have it.
Uh, no - it's because the only bombers AH has are two US level bombers. It would be pretty hard to divebomb in a 37,000lb B-26B I should think. Although, I doubt you will see many Ju 88A-4 divebombing, even though they have divebrakes...
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 08-25-2000).]
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Grin
I see your point and to an extent agree with it but I have to say keep the bombers for the moment. I am a pitiful fighter pilot and I suspect there are a few others out there too for whom, at the moment JABO is a one way ticket. As an example I took three loaded 38's in a attempt to hit two Panzers and crashed all three, I took a loaded to the gunnels 47 to a V base and got shot down by ack. For me buffing the bases is a big part of my fun in AH at the moment untill I get good enough to Jabo effectively. Cities and factories are frequently not a viable target due the range and DAR which means an hour spent climbing and cruising an be ruined by someone watching a counter and realising you're enroute to the city.
If I can't stand a reasonable chance of getting to a city or factory, there is no one on who wants to go with me anyway, I can't hit bases because it's not accurate enough and I'm not good enough to Jabo without getting killed why should I fly ?? Panzer instead ?? - the first F4U-1C to see you and 30 mins of driving down the pan.
I think the bombers play an important role as they are - lets see what the Lancaster brings first.
Sparks
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
In one sortie, myself and another pilot (both in P47s) took out a vBase (ack and hangar) and then an airfield (ack, vh, fh(2) and bh). That's tough to do with any two bombers.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 08-24-2000).]
AKDejaVu, what you described would've taken 12,500 lbs of ordnance with no margin for error. 3,000 lbs for each a/c hangar, 2,000lbs for the vh at the Afield and 1,500lbs for the vh at the v field . You sure they weren't allready soft ?
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Thnx for seeing my point Sparks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I understand your point too. The realistic bomber gameplay shouldent be made without some adjustments to the gameplay, else the high altitude level bombing would lose its role, and nobody would fly the heavy bombers anymore.
IMHO the simplest way to keep an important role for eg. the B17 was to have a city in every square of the map. Imagine now that you have attacked an airbase without touching the city first. Then the ppl from the city would offcourse make sure that the airbase was repaired and got ressources back vry quick. But if the city was firebombed first, everybody would be busy to save the city first, and the damaged infrastructure would make it difficult to get ressources back quickly.
This change in gameplay would make it possible to give eg. the B17s realistic/historic accuracy, because even if you only hit with 44% of the bombs within a 1000 feet Square from 12,000 feets altitude you would still be able to start a firestorm in that city.
Making the heavy high altitude level bombing unfit (but still very important)for base captures, would also mean that the parameters involved in basecaptures could be made more realistic, and that would mean that taking a base with divebombing alone would be easier.
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GrinBird
[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-25-2000).]
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The Buff Pilot's song:
http://www.collectivecomputing.com/475th/WeFlyInThePurpleTwilight.wav (http://www.collectivecomputing.com/475th/WeFlyInThePurpleTwilight.wav)
Take away those turbolasers, add Flak that will fire at any red plane above 27k with deadly accuracy and give blast damage to the bombs.
This will make buffs REAL usefull for what they were designed for, carpet bombing (or mass "precision" bombing.. which means carpet bombing in a smaller area, not this laser accuracy buffs have now) and give the (hopefully) soon to be added dive bombers their own niche.
They way I see it, a buff should fly in formation to survive with human gunners in it AND fighter escort (I remember some ball bearing plant in bavaria being attacked without fighter escort... black thursday!).
If they get to the target they should be allowed to do serious damage (tin hangars eating 2 or 3 1k bombs.. geez!). Fighter bombers and dive bombers would be the choice for "precision" tactical targets like ack, fuel and ammo dumps, while buffs would excel at spreading destruction over an area (read: cities or factories).
Right now buffs are just prop-driven F117's with that precision they got. Go figure! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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In WW2 B17s were used for firebombing cities, they couldent be used for closing airbases - they wasnt accurate enuf for that.
Operation Jubilee <Dieppe Raid>
Excerpt from JG 26 "Top Guns of the Luftwaffe" by Donald Caldwell.
At 1130, the closest major airfield to Dieppe, Abbeville-Drucat, was bombed by 24 Boeing B-17 Flying Fortresses of the American Eighth Bomber Command`s 97th Bomb Group.
The raid coincided with the scheduled time of the British withdrawal from the beachhead. The B-17s made their bombing run from 23,000 feet. The flak defenses were alert and scored several hits,but no interceptions were made by German fighters which were fully occupied elsewhere.
The British radio intercept service reported that the airfield was put out of action for several hours---
And to you Jihad.. I read my posts in this thread through once again.. I didnt find one single whine.
Maybe not in this specific thread,but in another bomber related thread you were critical of the bomber guns model.
[This message has been edited by jihad (edited 08-25-2000).]
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If you are serious about taking a field, use jabos. If you want to kill HQ, use buffs.
ra
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Jihad your example with the B17s is okay. It shows that even a massive attack with 24 heavy bombers on an airfield, had only little effect.
To compare I can give an example from David Crooks diary "The Spitfirepilot":
The time is the difficult days of BoB just before Luftwaffe decided to switch to bombing Cities instead of trying to destroy RAF. The stage is an AirBase in the southern England. Its just before noon and every pilot except one is sitting in the officers lounge preparing for a lunch. The weather with heavy rain and low clouds is too bad for flying. Only a single spitfirepilot is flying around over the base to test something in the plane. Suddenly they hear a heavy plane dive down over the base and a loud whistle. They all dive in under the tables as they hear a deep crunchy sound and feel the building shake. Now they hear the spitfire come in over with the 8 machineguns firing, and they run outside just in time to see the Ju88 get shot down near the base. Just beside the wall to the house there was a deep hole with an enormous bomb down at the buttom. The bomb didnt go off, - if it had, the Ju88 pilot would have wiped out the entire squadron with one blow. The example shows how effective one divebombing Ju88 was compared to 24 B17s.
And Jihad.. I have critized the bombers for not beeing realistic modelled, and I have given suggestions so it could be made better. Thats not whining.
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GrinBird
[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-25-2000).]
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Hmmm I seem to remember in WB the norden was much more "critical" in the B17 ie you had to line up and fly straight for a few seconds for the norden to "accquire" before you dropped, this isn't modeled in AH (copywrite??) for some reason.
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Originally posted by BigJim:
Hmmm I seem to remember in WB the norden was much more "critical" in the B17 ie you had to line up and fly straight for a few seconds for the norden to "accquire" before you dropped, this isn't modeled in AH (copywrite??) for some reason.
I don't think HTC will get around to modeling the complexity of the Norden for a while. But, the thing was pretty hard to hit with . Thing was difficult to program if you didn't have all the right numbers to compensate drift and such, which is why sometime the sight was dead on, and other times they missed it by miles.
- Jig
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Originally posted by GrinBird:
Jihad your example with the B17s is okay. It shows that even a massive attack with 24 heavy bombers on an airfield, had only little effect.
To compare I can give an example from David Crooks diary "The Spitfirepilot":
The time is the difficult days of BoB just before Luftwaffe decided to switch to bombing Cities instead of trying to destroy RAF. The stage is an AirBase in the southern England. Its just before noon and every pilot except one is sitting in the officers lounge preparing for a lunch. The weather with heavy rain and low clouds is too bad for flying. Only a single spitfirepilot is flying around over the base to test something in the plane. Suddenly they hear a heavy plane dive down over the base and a loud whistle. They all dive in under the tables as they hear a deep crunchy sound and feel the building shake. Now they hear the spitfire come in over with the 8 machineguns firing, and they run outside just in time to see the Ju88 get shot down near the base. Just beside the wall to the house there was a deep hole with an enormous bomb down at the buttom. The bomb didnt go off, - if it had, the Ju88 pilot would have wiped out the entire squadron with one blow. The example shows how effective one divebombing Ju88 was compared to 24 B17s.
And Jihad.. I have critized the bombers for not beeing realistic modelled, and I have given suggestions so it could be made better. Thats not whining.
Or better yet a flight of B-26's nailing a bridge before an train passes over it, taking a battalion or two of German troops over the ravine with the troop cars.
- Jig
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AKDejaVu, what you described would've taken 12,500 lbs of ordnance with no margin for error. 3,000 lbs for each a/c hangar, 2,000lbs for the vh at the Afield and 1,500lbs for the vh at the v field . You sure they weren't allready soft ?
Yes.. I am sure they weren't already soft. We didn't coordinate the attack either. As I was diving on a vBase ack, I noticed another p47 in the area.. I broke off and asked if he was heavy to wich he replied "yes". We then took the vBase down without dropping a single bomb. As I climbed away... I noticed I still had 1100 rounds on both counters. We proceded to the Airfield.
Once at the airfield, I dropped 2k on the VH imediately after the other p47 took out the VH ack. We then methodically began to take out the ack. Once that was complete, the other pilot dropped his 2k on one of the FH then we straffed it until down (1 pass each). We rocked and bombed (500 lb'r) the other FH and straffed it down too. We each got a fighter during this time... then a bomber before we straffed the BH down.
I was completely out of ammo when the BH went down. The other pilot had a couple hundred rounds left.
Both fields had been ignored for some time. We chose to take them because nobody was expecting it. It worked beautifully.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 08-26-2000).]
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Hmm this discussion has developed into a discussion about divebombing versus levelbombing, and thats fine.
I have done some research on the JU88, and got confirmed that it was originally was a divebomber. During the raids on London in the last months of BoB it was used as levelbomber. - But that dosent change the fact that it was a divebomber. And now it gets interesting.. We will get the JU88 in next patch, and will it be modelled as a divebomber or a levelbomber?
I did some research on the B26, - a bomber I must admit I dont know much about. According to the information I found, it was used originally as a low altitude level bomber for railroads factories etc. but it had very poor succes in that role. Later it was used as high-altitude bomber and had much more succes.
My hope is that we get medium divebombers like the JU88 and Mosquito in AcesHigh. But it still requires IMHO that the levelbombers are made a little less accurate than they are now, else divebombing wouldent be used enough I fear.
When they did best levelbombers could put 44% of the bombs within a 1000*1000 feet square around the target from 12000 feets altitude. As it is in Acehigh now, you can from the same altitude hit with 100% of the bombs within a 3*3 feet square.
Still I want bombing in AcesHigh to be as it was in WW2: Level bombing for strategic carpetbombing, and divebombing for tactical highprecision bombing.
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GrinBird
[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-26-2000).]
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Grinbird, I'd tend to agree with you on the hangars, I think it takes too much. However, you can still take out a hangar solo with any plane out there (that can carry some ord). Most of the heavier planes can take out all ack + a hangar solo, so really, 2-3 good divebombers and yeah, the base is closed.
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Yes you and AKdejavue are right Fatty. It is allready possible to take a base with divebombing and strafing. And it is apperently more common than I thought when I wrote the first post in this thread.
Maybe what I wish for (a more realistic/historic role for the level bombers) will emerge by itself with time, because people start to use Heavy fighters for base caps instead of level bombers, and use level bombing for cities factories and HQ. Who knows? I certainly hope so. And that also means that we could find a use for divebombers like Mosquito and JU88.