Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Beefcake on March 28, 2000, 10:52:00 AM
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are you guys even reading what we say? I mean I know you guys are bzy, but I was wondering do you guys even listen to imput froms us? I wanted to give some ideas on how the 17 and 26 could be "beefed up" a little bit, but after reading several posts, I thought that you might give some answers, but I've waited and have heard nothing. I just want to know do you guys listen to your customers? (I mean the customer is always right......well sometimes...... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) Anyway I want you to know that I love the game...... except for the fact that my plane (B17) is weaker than paper airplane. I mean a BB Gun a can bring it down, and all I hear form you guys is: "we haven't changed anything in these areas". This really explains alot to me. Please guys give us a little more info. Anyway short on time, I'll post my ideas about the 17 tonite.
Later
The Beefster-AH Full Time Bomber Pilot
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Beef, I agree that a 4 cannon aircraft (-1C, 190, N1K2) can kill a B17 very easily, unless its cruising in the atmosphere.
Try it in a MG aircraft and its about a 40% live, 60% die (fighter dies) proposition, unless the pilot is asleep at the wheel.
Test it if you don't believe me.
My only fear is that the buff tuff will be adjusted in reaction to the cannon birds (rightly so), but effectively eliminate the possibility of MG armed aircraft from bomber hunting.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-28-2000).]
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in the war mg equipped aircraft didnt hunt buffs, .50 cals were for killing fighters, which is why germans used 20mm and usa 50 cals. A cannon bird is and should be a much better buff hunter than mg craft.
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Beefcake- we're neither deaf nor blind, just mute sometimes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
FWIW- see this thread.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/000365.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/000365.html)
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
No sniveling!
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Beef they read and respond here all the time. I can think of at least 5 fixes that have come out of discussions right here on the boards. Keep in mind there are only 6 employees, and I think they are really cranking on a new release right now.
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Oh really Zigrat?
Hmmmm... I guess all those American Airmen in the South Pacific, were just taking way too much LSD and having hallucinations thru out the war. Kamikaze's were just a scary story to tell the children. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Oh oh oh .... and those German bombers like the Ju-88 and such, those were ghosts or evil spirits. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
If you honestly believe that the only country that had to shoot down bombers were the Germans in their 190's and 109's going after B-17's, you have been watching the History channel too much.
Being an aerospace engineering student I would have thought you knew better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Cool Pyro, so you guys do care. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Thz, I'm "new" to this section of the msg board. heheheheheh sweet well I guess later I'll post my observations on the 17. They pretty much follow what cave said in a way, but they're form the full time buff pilots point of view. Anyway thz Pyro, you guys rule. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The Beefster- AH Full Time Buff Pilot
"ALL NEEL DOWN TO PYRO HE-MAN-MASTER-OF-THE_UNIVERSE" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Pyro,
um.....sorry mate.....all due respect, etc....but the thread you refer to contains nothing more from yourself than: "No changes have been made"......um.......
Now c'mon buddy, we're asking nicely here:
Please, give us some information (in depth) of what (if anything) you plan to do about all these players issues with bombers being too damn easy to shoot down; and all the other players complaining that the bombers fly too damn high to shoot down?
Swoop
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FWIW I think the bombers are more than durable enough and have amazing defensive firepower. Unlike Beefcake I fly about 50/50 heavies and fighters, so I can see what's going on from both ends.
In real life one fighter vs. one bomber was a turkey shoot in favor of the fighter. In here it's a toss up at best.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-28-2000).]
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Oh really Zigrat?
Hmmmm... I guess all those American Airmen in the South Pacific, were just taking way too much LSD and having hallucinations thru out the war. Kamikaze's were just a scary story to tell the children. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Oh oh oh .... and those German bombers like the Ju-88 and such, those were ghosts or evil spirits. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
If you honestly believe that the only country that had to shoot down bombers were the Germans in their 190's and 109's going after B-17's, you have been watching the History channel too much.
Being an aerospace engineering student I would have thought you knew better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Common verm. Which of those even remotly approaches a B17, B24, or B29. The B26 is better defended then most any axis plane.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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I've got to ask... how many bomber pilots fly in any kind of a formation with another bomber to make use of mutual coverage? Are the bomber pilots flying with dedicated escorts? Not usually, in both cases.
Buff flying would be a lot more survivable with multiple plane close formations and/or escorts. Two gunners could bring up to 12 MG's onto a single attacking fighter before it got within lethal range. Three bombers flying in formation; the defensive fire would be murderous! We have high flying bombers (30k plus) that, at cruise speed, are almost untouchable by most fighters. Buff tuffing would be a bandaid fix for tactics rarely used intentionally in combat - single aircraft bomber attacks within range of enemy fighters over a defended target. (buff tuffing also works for ridiculous hit bubble models in the case of another sim).
Fly faster, higher and with some wingman to dramatically increase survivability.
MiG
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Mig how much time do you have in buffs?
I've lead many large formations of 17s in my time in AH. 4 time out of 5 when you saw a major sized rook bomber group headed somewhere it was me and TWC who put it together. Tight formations are a yes and no thing. You have more guns, yes, but it seems you have increased lag. In one such mission an F4U-1C shot me down from 1.6k on my FE, he said 800yds on his FE. I was flight lead, and my entire formation (10 B17s) were inside his lethal gun range, but he was 1000yds outside of my lethal range.
Then he flew away, unharmed and chased by our 'scorts. Also it's pretty hard to get a good sized group of buffs together, specially when you're just attacking an airfield. It's getting to where almost noone wants to fly the buffs because they're made of paper and the apparent disparity between the lethal ranges of fighters and bombers caused by netlag (fighters get 1-2 second or more of "killing time" before they enter the buff's guns lethal range).
I've been one of the highest scoring buff drivers since beta tour 1. I haven't flown a buff in a week. I quit flying them. At least in a fighter I have a chance to be a chicken and run for ack/home/friendlies or to manage to pull some ACM trick and reverse the tables.
And most of the ones I've seen screaming that the buff guns are too strong are the dweebs who dinnae how to attack a buff other than dead on 6, either a little high or a little low. That kind of attack gets you killed, period (but ya take the buff with ya).
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correct me if im wrong but shouldnt a fighter on a buffs six have to get closer to the buff to hit than the buff has to since the fighter is flying at 300mph into the buffs bullets and the buff is travelling at 260mph away from where the fighters bullets were launched?
or is this effect negated by netlag?
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CitabriAirbatiC
"There Is No Spoon"
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Pongo, the big advantage of the B-17, B-24, and B-29, was their defensive armament and the fact they flew in massed formations.
The myth of "heavily armored bombers" is just that, a myth. Bombers like fighters have very little armor, and then only in a few critical areas. The thing that probably helped them the most was that self sealing fuel tanks were standard issue, and they had 4 engines, instead of 2. And then you could get home on 2 engines, even with 2 shot out.
Even with all that, the B-24 was known to be much more vulnerable than either of the other two.
And the B-26, while armed with .50's, isn't much better defended than the Axis bombers. It has what, 4 defensive guns?
Many of the Japanese Bombers had 20mm cannons in the tail guns, and the other positions had 12.7mm MG's. And one of the Japanese Sea Planes which doubled as a bomber, actually had 5 defensive 20mm cannons in flexible mounts.
Even so the earlier Japanese Army aircraft armed with x4 12.7mm MG's regularly engaged US bombers. The Russian fighters mostly armed with a single 20mm, and x2 12.7mm MG's regularly shot down German bombers. And I already discussed the American Fighters. Hell, the Brits used rifle caliber MG's to shoot down many bombers early in the war.
My point is that the "Tank Buffs" are a total myth. And that you do not have to have a minimum of x4 20mm cannons to even consider getting a kill of a bomber.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Mig Eater, you hit it.
Formation, altitude AND ESCORT are the key.
Unlike some bomber pilots, I have stuck it out, I am that bad in fighters.
The AH Bombers are tough enough when facing the proper opposition at historical altitudes with escort.
We often fly 3 and 4 Bomber sorties and survival rates have increased from zero before reaching target to about 50% after target due to improved formation flying and taking the time to get to 25K.
Add 1 escort to disrupt attacks on us and that can go up to 100% with lots of damage, add 2 escorts and we can sometimes get away with all intact except the target.
The problems in AH and, I guess, all online sims are:
1. Getting 3 or 4 guys who want to take the time to learn to keep close, get to the target and fly back, this can take well over an hour and a half.
Finding dedicated escorts, fighter guys do not really want to fly to and from with us or even meet us over target and I do not blame them, boring as hell.
We try and sometimes succeed in getting escort on the way and these guys are worth their weight in gold and much appreciated.
Online perameters preclude large bomber formations but small, tight, escorted elements can be very effective.
Mad Bombers are recruiting and we are "Cheap Dates" if ya want to "Escort" us to parties.
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Last week the 332nd Flying Mongrels teamed up with JG2 for precisly this reason.
We rolled 4 bombers from 10 DEEP into enemy territory (f17, rooks had it if I remember correctly.
We lost one bomber to enemy fire. And that was after serveral repeated attacks by high p38's diveing through. A 109 was able to get
between the escorts & the buffs. Even so he paid the price, as the buffs tight formation
& defensive fire cut him down.
I personally have been on both ends. If I see a bomber inbound to my home territory I will always attack it if possible. This tour I have 6 kills of b17's & have died twice trying. Considering that I fly the Nik2-J & the spit 9 thats a pretty good average.
The b26 on the other hand is a different story. I have 4 kills & have died 6 times.
Am I not getting enough alt against the 26's?
Are they tougher?
I have to think that the Buffs lethality & guns are about right.
Like it was said above, bring friends, bring a escort or 2.
We who fly WWII sims like to measure everything as much as possible against the Historcal standard. Fact is even large bomber formations took unacceptable losses until they were escorted all the way to the target & back. A lone buff was easy meat, PERIOD.
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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels
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Originally posted by Citabria:
correct me if im wrong but shouldnt a fighter on a buffs six have to get closer to the buff to hit than the buff has to since the fighter is flying at 300mph into the buffs bullets and the buff is travelling at 260mph away from where the fighters bullets were launched?
or is this effect negated by netlag?
You are correct, but it seems that netleg negates, then reverses, this. The buff gunner should have the advantage because the fighters are flying into the bullets, which I would think should give the bullets that much more kinetic energy.
But there have been many a time when I've opened fire on a bandit at 1200yds, had constant hit sprites from 1100yds to 300yds (ranges on my FE) and I die while he flies away missing a control surface or a radiator if I'm lucky.
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Originally posted by Pyro:
Beefcake- we're neither deaf nor blind, just mute sometimes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) Change that to read "...most times." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
"...What's that behind the curtains? The back of the curtains."
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Tern
"Live to Fly! Fly to Fight! Fight to Live!"
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Hi all
What I did notice last night was a Spit chased me and got to me in my B17... haven't got a problem with that. Thing was I was in my tail gun and I blew both of his wings off (he was closing on my six) and he carried on shooting (without wings!) and the next thing I saw was my tail floating away! He got the kill. Help! Guess it could be lag, but seemed to be too long for lag, and the FE didn't suddenly jump nearer either. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Toodle Pip
'Nexx'